Gaming create games. Games become art. Games destroy gaming.

[I'm a Puppy!]

woman inherits the earth?

Honestly the last few weeks the gaming community has just been toxic (well, more than usual). Whether it be the Oppressolympics going on or the poor white men groaning under their heavy, heavy yoke. Or incestuous nature of gaming "journalism" or people shouting that a game isn't "triple A" enough or that a game isn't "Indie" enough.

Yeah gaming community has never been entirely "functional" but toxic was not something it generally was. It seems whenever anything comes up one side runs to don their polished white armor and the other runs to get their Guy Fawkes masks and the entire conversation is "No u!" and now with death threats thrown in for good measure. What the hell happened? It seems like nothing can bear discussion anymore.

I know people get into their hobbies and some say that this is just what fanbases do. But I don't see film people going this crazy. Music people go a little crazier than Film people but not much.  Some say that it's just the make up of the community but if white middle aged betas were always toxic the D&D and Anime scenes would've imploded long long ago. So what's so different? I used to be a music critic for a while and I totally got the whole "we must kill to dissect" problem. But we're not just killing games to dissect them but we're brutally eviscerating them and I don't really get why.

I always knew that gaming was nerdy and unpopular but it wasn't until recently that I've been ashamed to say that I'm party of the gaming community.

[Great Rumbler]

I just wanna play some fun games.

[I'm a Puppy!]

That's the whole point.
When I was criticing music one thing my editor told me was not to focus if the must "x enough" whether that was structured enough, produced enough, authentic enough, whatever. Just focus on if it was "good enough".

And that's the thing. Everyone is so caught up in "is it sexist?", "Is it inclusive enough?", "Are the graphics good enough?", "Is it social enough"? Like no one is asking "Is it fun enough?"

[demi]

ummm. i just got done jerking off now i'm playing videogames. is that a problem

[magus]

ummm. i just got done jerking off now i'm playing videogames. is that a problem

should have jerked off to a videogame to save time

[Rufus]

Like no one is asking "Is it fun enough?"

Is that actually true? As far as I know, reviews are still being published. I very rarely read them any more, but they're there. Show me reviews that focus too much on social issues and I'll entertain the thought that we're not talking enough about "fun" any more.

[I'm a Puppy!]

You seriously going to telling me you haven't heard "But is it sexist/inclusive?" lately? Where the hell have you been?

[demi]

people are just bored. you should be getting some waifu action.

[demi]

i apologize for my prior post. it was very rude and abrasive. what i'm saying is this whole topic sucks.

[I'm a Puppy!]

i apologize for my prior post. it was very rude and abrasive. what i'm saying is this whole topic sucks.

[Rufus]

You seriously going to telling me you haven't heard "But is it sexist/inclusive?" lately? Where the hell have you been?

Of course I have, but is it actually reducing the regular stuff?

[Human Snorenado]

If you just don't give a shit about the concept of "the gaming community" then you can do whatever the fuck you want, it's pretty awesome

[tiesto]

Yeah, maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but growing up gaming had its fair share of complaints about being a boys club, complaints about violence in games, people fighting console wars and calling each other feggits... but it was never quite like this. Nobody was posting developers' credit card info online, or sending death threats to them for having a difference of opinion. There were much fewer girls involved in online gaming communities but there was no battle of the sexes, no #notallmen, no #notallwomen.

And the games were much more fun and not nearly as pretentious. Nobody gave a shit whether or not their favorite game was 'art', we all just accepted our hobby as offbeat and nerdy.

But enough reminiscing like the old fart I am, time to play some vidya, pretensions be damned.

[hampster]

Be the change you want to see in the world ronito. Start a patreon!

[Himu]

You seriously going to telling me you haven't heard "But is it sexist/inclusive?" lately? Where the hell have you been?

Why is this a problem? This is an important dialogue games must have or it'll suffer by going the way of comics. More diversity in games to appeal to all types of people is good.

[MyNameIsMethodis]

There is a horrible corruption problem within gaming journalism, the problem is that it's been there since the inception of video games and people sperging out now over it is ridiculous when it was there all along.

But Zoe Quinn is a piece of shit who literally makes 2 thousand five hundred dollars a month to create text adventures.

[Himu]

Yeah, maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but growing up gaming had its fair share of complaints about being a boys club, complaints about violence in games, people fighting console wars and calling each other feggits... but it was never quite like this. Nobody was posting developers' credit card info online, or sending death threats to them for having a difference of opinion. There were much fewer girls involved in online gaming communities but there was no battle of the sexes, no #notallmen, no #notallwomen.

And the games were much more fun and not nearly as pretentious. Nobody gave a shit whether or not their favorite game was 'art', we all just accepted our hobby as offbeat and nerdy.

But enough reminiscing like the old fart I am, time to play some vidya, pretensions be damned.

His post has little to do with art and more to do with the games = art argument. If I'm reading this right.

[Himu]

That's the whole point.
When I was criticing music one thing my editor told me was not to focus if the must "x enough" whether that was structured enough, produced enough, authentic enough, whatever. Just focus on if it was "good enough".

And that's the thing. Everyone is so caught up in "is it sexist?", "Is it inclusive enough?", "Are the graphics good enough?", "Is it social enough"? Like no one is asking "Is it fun enough?"
(Image removed from quote.)

Not true. But then again I avoid the general gaming community. I think you're honestly reading gaf too much.

[I'm a Puppy!]

You seriously going to telling me you haven't heard "But is it sexist/inclusive?" lately? Where the hell have you been?

Why is this a problem? This is an important dialogue games must have or it'll suffer by going the way of comics. More diversity in games to appeal to all types of people is good.

There's no problem in asking for inclusivity. However, letting that get in your (and others) way of appreciating stuff is a problem.
I think Koichi Sugiyama is a bad person. But I love me some Dragon Quest music.
A lot of early italian Opera was very sexist, even for the time when it came out, but they're still great pieces of work.
Richard Wagner was a terrible terrible person but...no wait his stuff still sucks.

Think back to that whole Ubisoft contraversy where they didn't have a female character MC. That whole thing blew the hell up. I don't care if my character is a 60 foot tall octopus with school buses as tentacles. If the game is fun I'll enjoy it.

Of course people are entitled to make their own decisions on what they like and have their limits. For example, I don't play the God of War series or almost any gory game because I find that offensive to my little sensibilities. But you don't see me going to Sony being like "Why you gotta have guts tho?" and all that. I simply don't buy it. Games are a product, and don't owe anything more than entertainment. If you don't like it, don't buy it and hope the message gets across. 

[Human Snorenado]

Here, I'm going to help everyone

If you work in the industry, then this is a problem for you and you should care about it

If you're an end consumer, who fucking cares? I'm so tired of having to be outraged about shit. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go listen to Phil Spector albums and watch China Town. Fuck the outrage machine.

[Great Rumbler]

although I believe the modern term is "Social Justice Warriors?"

That's the 4chan term.

[I'm a Puppy!]

Here, I'm going to help everyone

If you work in the industry, then this is a problem for you and you should care about it

If you're an end consumer, who fucking cares? I'm so tired of having to be outraged about shit. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go listen to Phil Spector albums and watch China Town. Fuck the outrage machine.

How can you enjoy Phil Spector? He had terrible hair! I'm outraged!

[Himu]

I think you're making excuses for Ubisoft. People are interested in playing the game. Ubi gave four male options. They have a right as consumers to raise a stink. Plus, it's Assassins Creed. "Is it fun?" Shouldn't even be on the radar. If you like assassins creed, you should this by now. And these people like AC and wanted a female character. The only way to let developers know that there's more to their audience than white males with brown hair is to raise a stink. This is true for any social change or awareness. Like, since time memorial. Rather than shutting up and taking it.

[I'm a Puppy!]

You don't honestly expect me to believe people have fun with Assassins Creed.

Also there's a difference between saying "Hey we'd really like this!" and manufacturing contraversy.

[Himu]

You're right in that people get overly outraged about things these days, but that's not limited to gaming. It's the entire internet now. But unlike other things, in many ways, gaming deserves all of it.

[The Legend of Sunblade]

They didn't give four male options. It's one male option with everyone else in multiplayer looking the same w/ whatever customization you have on him. Same type of multiplayer as watch dogs where you only ever see yourself as the MC.

The reason there's four dudes on the cover instead of just one is to drive home the point of "THIS IS A CO-OP GAME" cause the general consumer can be dumb.

[Human Snorenado]

If they hadn't said they were going to have female options in AC, there'd be NO fucking stink about it.

Also, I may suggest that you are a little more sensitive to this sort of thing (having a female option) than most people, Himu? (understandable, but still)

[tiesto]

There is a horrible corruption problem within gaming journalism, the problem is that it's been there since the inception of video games and people sperging out now over it is ridiculous when it was there all along.

But Zoe Quinn is a piece of shit who literally makes 2 thousand five hundred dollars a month to create text adventures.

I don't know much about Zoe Quinn, nor have I paid any mind to the whole "5 Guys" controversy, nor have I played Depression Quest yet but don't be knockin' text adventures! Hell she's living the indie dev dream - making what she wants to make and getting a few bucks out of it (and $2500/mo isn't a whole lot depending on where you live)

[MyNameIsMethodis]

If you're an end consumer, who fucking cares?

If people are actually going to sites for recviews and purchasing opinions (lol) then those sites should be 100% upfront as to any relationship at all to a developer or if they've contributed to it.

[Himu]

If they hadn't said they were going to have female options in AC, there'd be NO fucking stink about it.

Also, I may suggest that you are a little more sensitive to this sort of thing (having a female option) than most people, Himu? (understandable, but still)

Except they had a female option in past AC co op.

[Himu]

If you're an end consumer, who fucking cares?

Because im tired of playing as white guys with brown hair and it'd be nice to play games I connect without having to resort to playing games with character creation? Not to say it's worth being outraged over, but to act like there's no reason at all to be annoyed or raise a stink as a consumer is highly myopic, and at worse, selfish.

[Human Snorenado]

I think it's more realistic to expect that sort of thing in indie games than AAA titles, what with the impending industry death spiral and increasing dev costs.

Also, hates on SRIV and loves GTAV

 

[Himu]

You don't honestly expect me to believe people have fun with Assassins Creed.

Also there's a difference between saying "Hey we'd really like this!" and manufacturing contraversy.

So all cases of this is just manufacturing controversy? Okay.

You originally said fun is what matters. But you don't find AC fun. Yet you have a problem with the people raising a stink about the lack of co-op options in the new one. I don't think you care about fun as much as you say you do.

[Himu]

I think it's more realistic to expect that sort of thing in indie games than AAA titles, what with the impending industry death spiral and increasing dev costs.

Also, hates on SRIV and loves GTAV

 

I don't hate SRIV and you should really drop that schtick because it's beyond tired. GTAV also stars more than white guys.

[tiesto]

I'm a 30's white guy with brown hair and I'm sick of playing as white guys with brown hair too. I miss the 90's when there were all sorts of whacked out characters you played as - from worms in space suits to robots to lanky nerdy dudes to vampire prettyboys to amazonesses to valkyries to dwarves to skeletons to spaceships to anthropomorphic furries...

Really though the best way to see more minority representation in gaming is the DIY approach - make indie games, RPG Maker games, stuff with your own personality infused into them - volunteer for some of those programs to go to minority-heavy schools and get minorities more involved in STEM. When I went to school, there were very few people who weren't Indian or white in my computer science classes, and this is at a state school where much of the populace comes from NYC and the local city's population is 40% black)...

[The Legend of Sunblade]

AC never had co-op before, it had competitive multiplayer with very poor quality models copy/pasted everywhere.

The whole deal with AC unity is that it's supposed to be redoing all of the series's assets from scratch. Ubisoft's explanation was incredibly poorly worded, but their technical reason was sound. Games don't have an infinite budget, making characters to the level of detail the AC main characters usually have costs money. If they're going to do a female MC, I'd rather they do a good job of it than half-ass it and get another AC Liberation (Aveline was great, but her game wasn't very good).

Hell, the very same explanation they gave mentioned that they do want to have another female MC in the future. I'm not sure why I shouldn't believe them on that when the AC series has had a Syrian, Italian, Native American, Welsh. female French African and male Trinidadian lead.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

If next year's game doesn't feature a female lead in some way, I'll be right there complaining with you.   

[close]

[Himu]

For the record, I don't really care about the AC thing much. I just brought it up because it's a topic for discussion. Thanks for the clarifications, sun-kun.

[The Legend of Sunblade]

You're welcome. 

This past month has been really rough. Just yesterday a friend of mine took over the Xseed twitter to replace the shithead that was running it. In less than an hour there was a 4chan thread about her digging up her personal info, looking over all the pictures in her personal account and making her feel like shit for "replacing" the previous shithead and claiming she was another SJW. I really want whatever crawled up the internet's ass to just go away already.

[headwalk]

i'm not sure i give a shit about the colour or genital status of whatever terribly written humanity void i'm vaguely interacting with as a sweatshop's worth of art assets stream past me at 22 frames per second. it's all usually so completely disengaging on any kind of emotional level that everything just becomes abstracted to the point where they might as well have never bothered with textures.

unless it's a brave socially aware indie masterpiece that has correctly identified that not everyone is that swole 30 something caucasian and that alone is the baseline for a two hour detour into surface level game design.

[Himu]

i'm not sure i give a shit about the colour or genital status of whatever terribly written humanity void i'm vaguely interacting with as a sweatshop's worth of art assets stream past me at 22 frames per second. it's all usually so completely disengaging on any kind of emotional level that everything just becomes abstracted to the point where they might as well have never bothered with textures.

............

Most hollywood movies are crap. That doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with admitting there's a lack if balance towards representing races on screen. Something can be artistically bland and still be harmful. I'm not seeing why being emotionally invested has to do with... well, anything.

[Rufus]

I applaud your cynicism, but don't be so binary, head-kun. :<

I know Gone Home gets flack for being a non-game, but I think it's a step in the right direction as far as diversity of viewpoints goes. In that they are acknowledged now. But I'm not going to hold my breath for safe AAA titles/series to change in any meaningful way.

[I'm a Puppy!]

You don't honestly expect me to believe people have fun with Assassins Creed.

Also there's a difference between saying "Hey we'd really like this!" and manufacturing contraversy.

So all cases of this is just manufacturing controversy? Okay.

You originally said fun is what matters. But you don't find AC fun. Yet you have a problem with the people raising a stink about the lack of co-op options in the new one. I don't think you care about fun as much as you say you do.

Dude you serious here? Not only saying "there was no contraversy!" but ad hominem too?  Come on Himu, you're better than that.
I mean come on , when they said "Guys we don't have the time" people went out and put out estimates of how long it would take them to do it and were like "How dare they not do this?!" That's above and beyond saying "You know, it'd be great if you could include this."

[larrydavid]

You're welcome. 

This past month has been really rough. Just yesterday a friend of mine took over the Xseed twitter to replace the shithead that was running it. In less than an hour there was a 4chan thread about her digging up her personal info, looking over all the pictures in her personal account and making her feel like shit for "replacing" the previous shithead and claiming she was another SJW. I really want whatever crawled up the internet's ass to just go away already.

what the fuck??

what the fuck?

i guess this is the fanbase xseed has systematically cultivated for itself. please tell your friend that some people out there are still sane and maybe she should find another place to work if possible.

edit: i just looked at the xseed twitter and it is still non-stop waifu shit, what more could these troglodytes possibly want?

[Himu]

I didn't say that there was no controversy. I did disagree that said controversy was not manufactured. Then again I wasn't paying too much attention because it was AC.

[tiesto]

I applaud your cynicism, but don't be so binary, head-kun. :<

I know Gone Home gets flack for being a non-game, but I think it's a step in the right direction as far as diversity of viewpoints goes. In that they are acknowledged now. But I'm not going to hold my breath for safe AAA titles/series to change in any meaningful way.

Yeah the AAAs don't seem on tackling anything thematically interesting anymore. But the indies that do try for originality usually do it at expense of gameplay (Gone Home). I'm waiting for the day when we get a game which features a unique, non-traditional viewpoint but is tied to some quality mechanics. Anna Anthropy probably has the best chance of making this game IMO...

[headwalk]

i'm not sure i give a shit about the colour or genital status of whatever terribly written humanity void i'm vaguely interacting with as a sweatshop's worth of art assets stream past me at 22 frames per second. it's all usually so completely disengaging on any kind of emotional level that everything just becomes abstracted to the point where they might as well have never bothered with textures.

............

Most hollywood movies are crap. That doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with admitting there's a lack if balance towards representing races on screen. Something can be artistically bland and still be harmful. I'm not seeing why being emotionally invested has to do with... well, anything.

of course there's a lack of balance. black guys? black chicks? trans black chicks? that's a risk. same reason they jettison any mechanic that can't be mastered while holding a doritos bag in the other hand.

you have two options, make basing a big budget game on anything other than a straight white guy less risky to Big Marketing Consultancy, or stop hoping for anything from titles which have risk aversion as nine of their ten commandments.

[I'm a Puppy!]

You're welcome. 

This past month has been really rough. Just yesterday a friend of mine took over the Xseed twitter to replace the shithead that was running it. In less than an hour there was a 4chan thread about her digging up her personal info, looking over all the pictures in her personal account and making her feel like shit for "replacing" the previous shithead and claiming she was another SJW. I really want whatever crawled up the internet's ass to just go away already.

See? shit like this.

Perhaps it's because it's just become too transparent.

[Himu]

i'm not sure i give a shit about the colour or genital status of whatever terribly written humanity void i'm vaguely interacting with as a sweatshop's worth of art assets stream past me at 22 frames per second. it's all usually so completely disengaging on any kind of emotional level that everything just becomes abstracted to the point where they might as well have never bothered with textures.

............

Most hollywood movies are crap. That doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with admitting there's a lack if balance towards representing races on screen. Something can be artistically bland and still be harmful. I'm not seeing why being emotionally invested has to do with... well, anything.

of course there's a lack of balance. black guys? black chicks? trans black chicks? that's a risk. same reason they jettison any mechanic that can't be mastered while holding a doritos bag in the other hand.

you have two options, make basing a big budget game on anything other than a straight white guy less risky to Big Marketing Consultancy, or stop hoping for anything from titles which have risk aversion as nine of their ten commandments.

Infamous second son starred a Native American. I don't really care if they're black so long as there's more racial diversity among games, and games like GTASA really put the "risk" thing down the toilet.

[The Legend of Sunblade]

I'm glad that games like Gone Home can exist alongside the AAA market tbh, even if I'd never play Gome Home myself. If I can have my animu games on a monthly basis, I'd sure hope everyone else has something to their liking.

Since Ubisoft was brought up, they kinda flip flop on diversity a lot. AC is great about it, but Watch_Dogs had probably the most boring white american dude they've ever come up with (supposedly Irish American, but I wouldn't be able to tell you that if I hadn't looked it up just now).

edit: i just looked at the xseed twitter and it is still non-stop waifu shit, what more could these troglodytes possibly want?

She's literally one of them, born and raised in the same fanbase. She actually knows Japanese, had done the whole living in Japan shindig and is one of the biggest weebs I know. Only now that she has a public face and name to her, so she's an easy target for everyone that defended Tom's "we don't censor our games even if our translation is actually wrong" nonsense. 

[Himu]

Assassins creed, the series that only tells stories of western society despite having the capability to go to any time period and country is... good with diversity? Instead of putting Assassins Creed V in I don't know, the Sahelian kingdoms or the any Chinese era, we get....France? This is diversity?

[headwalk]

i'm not sure i give a shit about the colour or genital status of whatever terribly written humanity void i'm vaguely interacting with as a sweatshop's worth of art assets stream past me at 22 frames per second. it's all usually so completely disengaging on any kind of emotional level that everything just becomes abstracted to the point where they might as well have never bothered with textures.

............

Most hollywood movies are crap. That doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with admitting there's a lack if balance towards representing races on screen. Something can be artistically bland and still be harmful. I'm not seeing why being emotionally invested has to do with... well, anything.

of course there's a lack of balance. black guys? black chicks? trans black chicks? that's a risk. same reason they jettison any mechanic that can't be mastered while holding a doritos bag in the other hand.

you have two options, make basing a big budget game on anything other than a straight white guy less risky to Big Marketing Consultancy, or stop hoping for anything from titles which have risk aversion as nine of their ten commandments.

Infamous second son starred a Native American. I don't really care if they're black so long as there's more racial diversity among games, and games like GTASA really put the "risk" thing down the toilet.

infamous' protagonist is the most vanilla of vanilla dudes i've ever seen on a box-art.

GTA is actually a pretty good example though. i feel like rockstar's strength doesn't come from their desire to press issues, but from their sense of humour and irreverent swagger. something the entire industry could do with more of.

for me, the most thematically engaging games i've played in recent years are hotline miami and papers, please. two games where the mechanics and their presentation are almost one in the same.

[The Legend of Sunblade]

Diversity within Western society, sure. 

I can see the series expanding a bit more now since they killed off the boring modern-era MC in AC3 (which the whole plot revolved around). AC4's DLC was promising enough. The new mobile game has Feudal Japan and Mongolia as featured locations too.

[I'm a Puppy!]

I was thinking about something that I've heard quite a lot lately about how TV is way more inclusive than it once was and how people believe that it happened because of outcry.
That's just not true. I'm old enough to remember in the 80s the gay community saying they needed more actors to come out and more gay screenwriters and gay producers. And exactly that happened. The gay screenwriters were able to write characters that weren't cliches, gay producers gave thumbs up to gay friendly shows and openly gay actors got people to think "maybe gay people aren't that bad?"  I know it's nice to think it happened due to outcry but there was a very specific plan to make it happen. That needs to happen in gaming more than crap drama we have now.  Although, honestly things are so bad I'm not entirely sure it would work. I mean that one woman from Bioware was crucified on both sides of the argument (sure the MRA side was way worse but loads of feminists called her terrible things for the way she dealt with female characters, I remember someone saying that since the writer was a lesbian she just used women as sex objects...whaa???)

Also about the whole twitter/doxxing thing. I think perhaps gaming should heir take a clue from other industries and limit their "personality" exposure. Yes, they have twitter accounts but there's a nameless person behind it  that poses as a team so they can't really be called out. I know gaming likes to get "up close and personal" but I don't think it's in their best interest most times. Sure, you can use a GabeN or a Reggie to great effect. But they are exceptions.  Perhaps it's time to just back up and go anonymous on these things. It's going to be difficult for Indie Devs though because their personality is part of their value add proposition (not surprising then when someone with a personality like Phil Fish implodes). But still, obviously we can't handle actually knowing people on twitter.

[I'm a Puppy!]

And why would we want games to be fun?

[Great Rumbler]

Miyamoto games and rescuing princesses all the time is what gets the goat of all these butthurt folks that refer to others as "cis" and "ableist" unironically in the first place.

Which, in turn, gets the goat of people who unironically use the terms "Social Justice Warrior" and "Men's rights."

[I'm a Puppy!]

that really gets my goat

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I think the past 2-3 years of the video game industry's "controversies" are a sign that the industry is gasping its last breaths of air.

Console and PC gaming just isn't as relevant as it was for the past 5-25 years so these journalists are fighting for a piece of an ever shrinking pie.  So it's not surprising that journalists use the Gawker Method of clickbait junk journalism to try to be the crab highest up in the bucket.  Gaming journalism is pretty much irrelevant and they know it.  20 years ago, you had to read articles from journalists to know of an upcoming game.  There is so much information out there that gaming journalism is entirely unnecessary; gaming companies can communicate directly to the gamers.  If a game is out, you can watch it on Youtube and see if it is something you like.  Gone are the days of reading 1up's notoriously turgid reviews where they injected the words "milquetoast" and "oozing" to pad their content-sparse reviews.

Gamers have always been dorks, what else is new?  Except now there is a group of the unwashed (literally) who gotta get dem clickz in an industry that doesn't need them anymore.  Game journalists are shitting on gamers because gamers left journalists a long time ago.