150 years ago today, the South held the L that they were given

[Eschaton]

that's right, 50 years before Drinky Crow was born, the Confederacy surrendered on April 9, 1865.

And they're still mad about it

spoiler (click to show/hide)

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[Phoenix Dark]

Sherman should have finished the job.

[jakefromstatefarm]

Sherman should have finished the job.

the best is when you get Lost Causers arguing how the Union's use of unnecessary force in the war exemplified by Sherman combined with the illegality of Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus = the real tragedy of the 1860's, i.e. Reconstruction and the stripping of the landed gentry from their glorious old way of life


oh, and state's rights. because of course

[Great Rumbler]

Celebrate a bunch of traitors against a democratically elected government who started a war because they wanted to keep human beings as slaves, brehs.

[Kara]

Sherman should have finished the job.

the best is when you get Lost Causers arguing how the Union's use of unnecessary force in the war exemplified by Sherman combined with the illegality of Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus = the real tragedy of the 1860's, i.e. Reconstruction and the stripping of the landed gentry from their glorious old way of life


oh, and state's rights. because of course

sum1 kiss dis man

[kingkitty]

northern aggression

[suppadoopa]

The South is a pretty interesting place even with all the confederate nonsense that they still clamor too.

Last summer I tagged along with a buddy down to the Northwest Arkansas region to help him move down there cause he got a job at wally world corporate. And some areas down there is as diverse as what I would see where I live (suburbs of Chicago) but you take one turn and you are smack dab in klansville. And it didn't help that I was dressed as I was straight out of a H&M catalog so I was getting a lot of stares lol

[Human Snorenado]

The only Confederate flag the ever mattered



My favorite general ever

[Kara]

The General's memoirs are worth a read if you haven't read them. He strikes me as the leader Americans think George Washington was but wasn't.

[Phoenix Dark]

[jakefromstatefarm]

dat feel when you live in the south and you're talking to your friends about the war and they're like "man, there's a whole bunch of stuff you just don't know about _______________ " (slavery/reconstruction/the civil war) and you get hit with these arguments from people you think are normal

they are all built off of slavery apologia. all of them. whether it's state's rights, Klan apologia, the unconstitutionality of Lincoln's administration, The War of Northern Aggression, the economic landscape was already well under change by 1861 etc. They are all meant to cope with the cognitive dissonance that arises from their idyllic picturesque scenes of Gone With the Wind containing an economic mode of production of chattel slavery legitimized by institutional racism and systematic dehumanization. It's the great irony in the Lost Cause argument; no matter which way you slice it, it's Transatlantic turtles all the way down.

[jakefromstatefarm]

The General's memoirs are worth a read if you haven't read them. He strikes me as the leader Americans think George Washington was but wasn't.

marginally related

as far as autobiographical primary sources meant to engender favorable repute amongst posterity, Memoirs of Nikita Krushchev are

[Kara]

How many chapters in Special K's memoirs are dedicated to maize? :trollbron:

If I ever get benji in a Secret Santa I'm giving him Gromyko's memoirs.

[StealthFan]

[jakefromstatefarm]

Are Zhukov's memoirs any good?

there's a guy on r/askhistorians who's an ENORMOUS Zhukovphile, has read every document in his name, can tell you what he thought about [insert contemporary political leader here] and yet can't read the primaries because he never took Russian

I've never read them personally. Evidently they were written under Krushchev in the late 50's but weren't published until well into the Brezhnev administration, so I'd be willing to bet a lot of the material was truncated/bowdlerized.

[Phoenix Dark]

Yea, when you talk to Lost Causers you get the impression they think the South's economy and power were the result of pure magic, like a high fantasy novel.

[StealthFan]

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got something to share with the rest of the class, friend?

Nah I'm good

[Phoenix Dark]

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got something to share with the rest of the class, friend?

Nah I'm good

[Sausage]

I like how pretty much all the people who like the Confederates are also hardcore super patriots too. #dualities

[Joe Molotov]

I like how pretty much all the people who like the Confederates are also hardcore super patriots too. #dualities

They love America, they'd just love it a lot more if people of certain color/genders didn't have so much of a say in it.

[StealthFan]

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got something to share with the rest of the class, friend?

Nah I'm good

(Image removed from quote.)

Your banter grows tiresome 

[Cerveza mas fina]

Did the South lose though?

Now I'm not claiming to be an expert just because I have a bachelor degree in History and redid the American History course like 2 times, but what I got from my education is that the South surrendered but that they actually succeeded in most of their political goals.

One could argue that even though Germany lost the war twice, they have succeeded in their plans of "gleichschaltung and lebensraum" now by establishing the EU, in which they are the de facto leader, in which the european curreny is actually the DM (as the euro was 1-1 with the DM at conversion) and opening up every country for trade and free travel of capital and people (cheap labour). So the winners of the war had to establish a future in which many of the ideas of the losers where incorporated.

[Joe Molotov]

Nah, I'm pretty sure they lost.

[sarslip]

 





"comments disabled" 

[ToxicAdam]

Did the South lose though?

Not only did the South lose, you could make the argument that the political influence of the Northern states held them down for the next 80 years thereafter. The south was forever lagging in population growth, job growth, economic growth, education. Unless the state had access to natural resources or tourism, it remained stuck in time.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Be Columbia South Carolina brehs


PD watch your back breh!

[Brehvolution]

The south will ride again!!!


And protest against socialism on their scooter paid for by medicare.

[Eel O'Brian]

On the bright side, it gave Native Americans a little break for four years until the country continued their westward tour of wiping out entire cultures of indigenous peoples. Yay, North!

Yay, Sheridan!

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people/s_z/sheridan.htm

He was unconcerned about the likelihood of high casualties among noncombatants, once remarking that "If a village is attacked and women and children killed, the responsibility is not with the soldiers but with the people whose crimes necessitated the attack."

The key engagement in this successful campaign was George Armstrong Custer's surprise attack on Black Kettle's encampment along the Washita River, an attack that came at dawn after a forced march through a snowstorm. Many historians now regard this victory as a massacre, since Black Kettle was a peaceful chief whose encampment was on reservation soil, but for Sheridan the attack served its purpose, helping to persuade other bands to give up their traditional way of life and move onto the reservations.

Yay, Sherman!

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people/s_z/sherman.htm

. He once declared that all Indians not on reservations "are hostile and will remain so until killed off."

Hell, both of them were even animal lovers!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Sheridan#Indian_Wars

Professional hunters, trespassing on Indian land, killed over 4 million bison by 1874, and Sheridan applauded: "Let them kill, skin and sell until the buffalo is exterminated". When the Texas legislature considered outlawing bison poaching on tribal lands, Sheridan personally testified against it, suggesting that the legislature should give each of the hunters a medal, engraved with a dead buffalo on one side and a discouraged-looking Indian on the other.

He perceived clearly the devastating effectiveness of striking at the economic basis of the Plains Indians' lives, once commenting to General Philip Sheridan that "it would be wise to invite all the sportsmen of England and America... for a Grand Buffalo Hunt, and make one grand sweep of them all." And he endorsed Sheridan's innovation of attacking Indian encampments during the winter, when their supplies and mobility were both severely limited. 

Comanche Chief Tosawi reputedly told Sheridan in 1869, "Me, Tosawi; me good Injun," to which Sheridan supposedly replied, "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead." Sheridan denied he had ever made the statement. Biographer Roy Morris Jr. states that, nevertheless, popular history credits Sheridan with saying "The only good Indian is a dead Indian." This variation "has been used by friends and enemies ever since to characterize and castigate his Indian-fighting career."[46] Political scientist Mario Marcel Salas, in quoting and extrapolating information from Dee Brown's book, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, a Native American view of American history, indicates that Sheridan's statement was confirmed by Tosawi. Salas argues that regardless of which variation of the statement is correct, it taints Sheridan as a racist mass killer. Sheridan's job, according to Brown, was to hunt down and murder all Indians that would not agree to giving up their lands."

Heroes! Take that L, Injuns!

[Rufus]

[ToxicAdam]

Pretty interesting when you look through the scope of time. The Civil War compelled America to forge this killing machine and we've been wielding it ever since. An organism that needs to feed every 10-20 years.

[Eel O'Brian]

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/17/shermans-southern-sympathies/?_r=0

“All the congresses on earth can’t make the negro anything else than what he is; he must be subject to the white man,” Sherman wrote his wife in 1860. “Two such races cannot live in harmony save as master and slave.” In a letter to his antislavery brother-in-law about plans to bring his family to Louisiana, Sherman crassly joked about becoming a slave master himself. Making light of the problems he anticipated in keeping white servants, he wrote that his wife Ellen “will have to wait on herself or buy a distinguished black fellow. What will you think of that — our buying distinguished black fellows?”

man, just an outstanding human being

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Pretty interesting when you look through the scope of time. The Civil War compelled America to forge this killing machine and we've been wielding it ever since. An organism that needs to feed every 10-20 years.

The Civil War?

America has been a murderous killin' machine since the pre-alpha development phase. Columbus was at the first possible opportunity

Manifest destiny brehs

[Madrun Badrun]

Did the South lose though?

Not only did the South lose, you could make the argument that the political influence of the Northern states held them down for the next 80 years thereafter. The south was forever lagging in population growth, job growth, economic growth, education. Unless the state had access to natural resources or tourism, it remained stuck in time.

Pre-war the south and north had a very carefully constructed balance of political power.  That's something they never got back.  Plus most of the whole southern aristocracy was mostly destroyed. 

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Did the South lose though?

Not only did the South lose, you could make the argument that the political influence of the Northern states held them down for the next 80 years thereafter. The south was forever lagging in population growth, job growth, economic growth, education. Unless the state had access to natural resources or tourism, it remained stuck in time.

Pre-war the south and north had a very carefully constructed balance of political power.  That's something they never got back.

You mean like when they were beating the shit out of each other with their canes in congress?

[Madrun Badrun]

Well that was a southern senator beating the shit out of a northern one, pretty much right before the war, who then fled back home and didn't have any kind of repercussions other than a 300$ fine. 

Right before the war is when southern political power goes out the window and why the states seceded (when Lincoln was elected despite not even being on the ballot for most southern states).


Also everyone should watch this


great class

[ToxicAdam]

The Civil War?

America has been a murderous killin' gestalt since the pre-alpha development phase. Columbus was at the first possible opportunity

True, but those were really small-scale skirmishes that had a finite end.  The industrial revolution and the Revenue Act of 1861 (created for the Civil War) kind of pushed things to another level, where it became this perpetual machine.

[Kara]

Did the South lose though?

Now I'm not claiming to be an expert just because I have a bachelor degree in History and redid the American History course like 2 times, but what I got from my education is that the South surrendered but that they actually succeeded in most of their political goals.

One could argue that even though Germany lost the war twice, they have succeeded in their plans of "gleichschaltung and lebensraum" now by establishing the EU, in which they are the de facto leader, in which the european curreny is actually the DM (as the euro was 1-1 with the DM at conversion) and opening up every country for trade and free travel of capital and people (cheap labour). So the winners of the war had to establish a future in which many of the ideas of the losers where incorporated.

Ehhh I see what you're saying but you're being too ambitious with your European analysis. Germans don't colonize new lands, German capital does for example. And I'd argue that if anything the debt crisis demonstrated that the EU isn't an extension of German foreign policy, at least since Mario Draghi became head of the ECB.

As for the American South, politically they are disproportionately relevant, but economically they've still not recovered. Antebellum they were king cotton, the world can still do without them today.

[benjipwns]

Typical Americans using guns to try and solve a problem rather than peacefully abolishing social injustices like in Europe.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Typical Americans using guns to try and solve a problem rather than peacefully abolishing social injustices like in Europe.

[benjipwns]

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Where's the Confederate flag? I just see the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia?

[Madrun Badrun]

My sympathy for racist slavers is very little.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

(Image removed from quote.)

Where's the Confederate flag? I just see the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia?

[Am_I_Anonymous]

(Image removed from quote.)

Where's the Confederate flag? I just see the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia?

If washington was alive in the 1860's he would have been a confederate. Yeah, that's tough to swallow.

[benjipwns]

(Image removed from quote.)

*BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG*

HE'S GOT A GUN! HANDS UP! POLICE! STOP OR I'LL SHOOT!

*BANG* *BANG*

[Joe Molotov]

Making light of the problems he anticipated in keeping white servants, he wrote that his wife Ellen “will have to wait on herself or buy a distinguished black fellow. What will you think of that — our buying distinguished black fellows?”

dat word filter

[Great Rumbler]

You pretty much have to be a monstrous little shit to cheerlead for employing scorched earth tactics against civilians (and of course, as already noted, these same tactics were used by the same army, same officers against native Americans).

So, it's not surprising to see Triumph doing so.

The idea that people will normally gravitate towards treating other people without prejudice or ill-will given enough time to do so is pretty ridiculous. The racist scumbag plantation owners deserved to get slapped down and then have their pitiful mewling buried in concrete by federal law.

[Steve Contra]

I bet no one expected JayDubya's first post in this thread to be sympathetic to the South.

[benjipwns]

Remember that time the Republican Party denied people and entire states the right to vote or have Congressional representation and then made a restoration of such rights contingent on the acceptance of certain Amendments and long-term Republican political rule but offered no possibility of turning this down.

Good times.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Remember that time the Republican Party denied people and entire states the right to vote or have Congressional representation and then made a restoration of such rights contingent on the acceptance of certain Amendments and long-term Republican political rule but offered no possibility of turning this down.

Good times.

[ToxicAdam]

You pretty much have to be a monstrous little shit to cheerlead for employing scorched earth tactics against civilians (and of course, as already noted, these same tactics were used by the same army, same officers against native Americans).

So, it's not surprising to see Triumph doing so.

Really, you should be bemoaning the lack of proper investment in the South to rebuild it after the war was over. But that speaks more to the federal government lacking the wherewithall to do anything until well into the 20th century.

That magical era between the Civil War and the New Deal that your types like to call 'the good ole days'.

[Joe Molotov]

Remember that time the Republican Party denied people and entire states the right to vote or have Congressional representation and then made a restoration of such rights contingent on the acceptance of certain Amendments and long-term Republican political rule but offered no possibility of turning this down.

Good times.

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

[Eel O'Brian]

And who better to take down a bunch of racist scumbag plantation owners than a bunch of racist scumbag generals?

See, there were people, lots of them, who didn't agree with the secession, or slavery, but had to continue living there, because people in SC circa 1862 probably just couldn't pack their shit and get the fuck out of dodge.  Lots of those people were killed in the course of the war, or had their homes destroyed, just for living there.  Should have just wiped them all out, though. Not taken any chances. Like nowadays in the middle east, you know? Better to just wipe it off the earth. So there won't be any more terrorists, or oppression of women and minorities. Gotta break a few eggs, right?

[Am_I_Anonymous]

In this corner we have the genocide beliving, non union factory fuckery employing, just in it for the cotton, undisputed champion of the world, the Union.

And in this corner, weighing in at a malnutrition aided 132 pounds, fighting out of the holler, we have the black man trading, cousin marrying, bootlicking hillbilly shitheads....the CONFEDERACY

Fight

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson >>>>>> Grant and Sherman FYI

[benjipwns]

See, there were people, lots of them, who didn't agree with the secession, or slavery, but had to continue living there, because people in SC circa 1862 probably just couldn't pack their shit and get the fuck out of dodge.  Lots of those people were killed in the course of the war, or had their homes destroyed, just for living there.  Should have just wiped them all out, though. Not taken any chances. Like nowadays in the middle east, you know? Better to just wipe it off the earth. So there won't be any more terrorists, or oppression of women and minorities. Gotta break a few eggs, right?

I would suggest that they should have had far more responsible fathers.

[Human Snorenado]

Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson >>>>>> Grant and Sherman FYI

Not according to results

[Human Snorenado]

Also, JD is just mad that Sherman burnt ALL THAT PRESHUS PROPERTY to the ground

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson >>>>>> Grant and Sherman FYI

Not according to results

Dude give Lee an equal army and supplies as Grant and he beats him all the way back to the canadian border....real talk.

[Human Snorenado]

Sherman tho

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Sherman tho

And the point he got going he was fighting dudes were melting their belt buckles to make bullets.