Everyone who fetishizes the 2nd Amendment can fuck off and die already

[Shadow Mod]

Also internet sleuths ugh.

And people/media who want to throw graphic footage/imagery all up in your face.

 

[CatsCatsCats]

Guess what? Humans are violent. Access to guns didn't cause this. Shut down your liberal outrage machine.

[Shadow Mod]

Funny enough one of the things we can control is how we publicize these events but it's always the same, mythologizing the whole event and giving a ton of celebrity to the perp(s).

[Kara]

People who long for that kind of treatment can take solace that the rest of what remains of that empire is still run that way.

On personal protection for the non-rich. And free speech/press/assembly. But other than FortressUK most of the rest of the commonwealth isn't appreciably worse than the United States. And can be better.

America had legal chattel slavery, that's about as authoritarian as humanly possible.

[Phoenix Dark]

Not that this would pass either, but I'd rather see straw purchases and other means of illegally traffiking guns banned and/or addressed. Outright banning specific guns or ammunition isn't going to do shit, especially when most gun crime in the country happens with handguns.

[Boogie]

People who long for that kind of treatment can take solace that the rest of what remains of that empire is still run that way.

On personal protection for the non-rich. And free speech/press/assembly. But other than FortressUK most of the rest of the commonwealth isn't appreciably worse than the United States. And can be better.

No, he's right.  In fact, the whispered unofficial name for the RCMP here at home is the Crimson Stasi.

[Himu]

Guess what? Humans are violent. Access to guns didn't cause this. Shut down your liberal outrage machine.

Are you saying that harsher gun laws probably wouldn't or couldn't have prevented this? Either way, it's a tragedy, but labeling this "liberal outrage machine" in light of a psychopathic dude who obviously would not pass any psychological test worth its salt yet still manages to own a gun is pretty fucking dumb.

[Himu]

Like, apparently of all things worth getting outraged about, trying to find ways to prevent more senseless deaths apparently isn't one of them.

[CatsCatsCats]

I think you're smarter than thinking it's possible to weed out the possibly homicidal by giving them a test. You want people to stop killing each other, we'd do a whole lot more by cultivating a society of empathy than labelling people psychopaths and limiting their rights.

Acting like we're just stricter gun laws away from ridding ourselves of these "abberations" (ie human behaviors in response to the social structure they're forced into at birth) is what's fucking dumb.

[Rufus]

Acting like we're just stricter gun laws away from ridding ourselves of these "abberations" (ie human behaviors in response to the social structure they're forced into at birth) is what's fucking dumb.

Dunno, Australia's doing pretty well since they've made it very difficult for people to have guns.

[CatsCatsCats]

Oh, I'm sure Australia and the USA have nearly identical socio-economics as well

[Himu]

I think you're smarter than thinking it's possible to weed out the possibly homicidal by giving them a test. You want people to stop killing each other, we'd do a whole lot more by cultivating a society of empathy than labelling people psychopaths and limiting their rights.

Acting like we're just stricter gun laws away from ridding ourselves of these "abberations" (ie human behaviors in response to the social structure they're forced into at birth) is what's fucking dumb.

Cultivate a society of empathy? But not before limiting people's access to guns? Labeling people as psychopaths and "limiting their rights?"

I don't think anyone here argued that people WOULDN'T still kill. It is after all, a part of the human condition. But labeling even the mere discussion of limiting people's access to guns is a "outrage" gymnastics now?

Americans are batshit

[Rufus]

Oh, I'm sure Australia and the USA have nearly identical socio-economics as well

No, they don't, but it's more difficult to go on a mass murdering rampage armed with, say, a knife.

[jakefromstatefarm]

Eh. The problem seems to be him not having a history of mental illness when he most likely was mentally ill.

where are the receipts?

[CatsCatsCats]

Brandnew's post of "fuck everyone with theirs guns" was stupid liberal outrage incapable of doing anything but further polarizing. Where did I say more limits wouldn't be useful? Just being angry and accusatory isn't going to solve the larger issues at play that make America a violent cesspit.

[benjipwns]

Not that this would pass either, but I'd rather see straw purchases and other means of illegally traffiking guns banned and/or addressed.

Fast and Furious is a phony scandal.

[CatsCatsCats]

Oh, I'm sure Australia and the USA have nearly identical socio-economics as well

No, they don't, but it's more difficult to go on a mass murdering rampage armed with, say, a knife.

I'm really not opposed to more gun control, I just think limiting guns shouldn't be the main issue. I think instead we should be asking "why do Americans want to commit mass murder" that's not a normal healthy human response to a good society.

Also, using the term liberal outrage machine was just me poking at the bears for fun. Sorry, Himu

[Himu]

Brandnew's post of "fuck everyone with theirs guns" was stupid liberal outrage incapable of doing anything but further polarizing. Where did I say more limits wouldn't be useful? Just being angry and accusatory isn't going to solve the larger issues at play that make America a violent cesspit.

Okay, I can agree with that but you understand that when you come into a topic mid-thread and start throwing whatever without one shred of context or who it is directed at, people are just going to find you equally as unnecessarily combative, yes? Especially when you harp on the E word.

[Kara]

Oh, I'm sure Australia and the USA have nearly identical socio-economics as well

They are the America to New Zealand's Canada.

[CatsCatsCats]

What, now I have to live by what I say? Thought this was 'murica!

spoiler (click to show/hide)

yeah that's fair

[close]

[Himu]

Sounds like a badass punk band

[Phoenix Dark]

Eh. The problem seems to be him not having a history of mental illness when he most likely was mentally ill.

where are the receipts?

The crime itself? And where he was fired from, he seemed like a troubled person when they let him go.

I had a hunch he was unhinged by going through his twitter. Posting lots of pictures of himself at a young age and other weird shit.

But I guess we won't know for sure he was mentally ill when he's fucking dead now.

Posting pictures of yourself on social media is now a sign of mental illness?

Killing people over a work grudge is not a surefire sign of mental illness either.

[TakingBackSunday]

Brandnew's post of "fuck everyone with theirs guns" was stupid liberal outrage incapable of doing anything but further polarizing. Where did I say more limits wouldn't be useful? Just being angry and accusatory isn't going to solve the larger issues at play that make America a violent cesspit.

Nah, I pretty much am sticking to "fuck everyone with a gun fetish."

Killing people over a work grudge is not a surefire sign of mental illness either.

However, his manifesto is.

[VomKriege]

I'm not certain access itself is the problem, although the very large availability plays a role. The problem is the toxic culture of gun ownership that spawns a lobby that won't give in a single inch towards any sensible measure. I believe that any sane responsible adult (any citizen, in short) should be allowed to buy and own firearms (all handguns and non automatic rifles at least, won't go into the particular, the line between what's civilian and "military" is an arbitrary one). In return they should submit to background checks, registration, gun education.

2nd amendment is fine. People hell bent on a literal reading of it as if it was a piece of religious doctrine are assholes.

The 2nd amendment isn't practiced in the way it was intended with regards to providing STATE MILITIAS the right to arm, it was originally put in the constitution as a way for the state governments to not feel powerless against the federal governments military capacity so it's useless today. You seem well learned on this subject for a French dude but I just wanted to point out that it really doesn't apply to modern civilian gun ownership.

In America today, we have two types of gun owners: The ones who just like guns cause they're cool and fun (myself included) and then there's the minority who want a paperless trail to gun ownership because they're paranoid the government might take away the one thing that makes them feel powerful in life. That second group of gun nuts is probably a tiny minority but they're backing the NRA/gun lobby.

Well, I'm no US constitution scholar, but regardless of the original intentions (In those matters, I'm not sure they are that important anyway) it is what serves as the basis for gun ownership, isn't it ? Also while the language may be outdated, I think the principle of a citizen militia / arming citizen as a potential balance for abuse of authority is relevant still but I guess that's another debate. I think the Switzerland case, where gun laws are pretty friendly to owners and military rifles are widely held by the populace (namely for national defence), shows that access itself is not the problem.

To be fair to some gun owners though, there is some truth to the slippery slope of regulations. I have been told by an acquaintance that shotgun owners in France felt really burnt when those weapons were seized (without any compensation) in 95... using the registration lists that were enforced a few years earlier. Those who didn't register had a good laugh out of that. The EU has been clearly pushing towards more comprehensive restrictions which seems mostly unnecessary. I find the situation in the UK pretty bonkers, and France is mostly restrictive.

[octopushover]

Oh, I'm sure Australia and the USA have nearly identical socio-economics as well

This sounds remarkably like what someone alluding to race problems might say.

[CatsCatsCats]

Yeah, you know, that really gets my goat. It simultaneously dehumanizes the situation and demonizes mental illness.


Topic moving fast, that was in response to PD

[brawndolicious]

I'm not certain access itself is the problem, although the very large availability plays a role. The problem is the toxic culture of gun ownership that spawns a lobby that won't give in a single inch towards any sensible measure. I believe that any sane responsible adult (any citizen, in short) should be allowed to buy and own firearms (all handguns and non automatic rifles at least, won't go into the particular, the line between what's civilian and "military" is an arbitrary one). In return they should submit to background checks, registration, gun education.

2nd amendment is fine. People hell bent on a literal reading of it as if it was a piece of religious doctrine are assholes.

The 2nd amendment isn't practiced in the way it was intended with regards to providing STATE MILITIAS the right to arm, it was originally put in the constitution as a way for the state governments to not feel powerless against the federal governments military capacity so it's useless today. You seem well learned on this subject for a French dude but I just wanted to point out that it really doesn't apply to modern civilian gun ownership.

In America today, we have two types of gun owners: The ones who just like guns cause they're cool and fun (myself included) and then there's the minority who want a paperless trail to gun ownership because they're paranoid the government might take away the one thing that makes them feel powerful in life. That second group of gun nuts is probably a tiny minority but they're backing the NRA/gun lobby.

Well, I'm no US constitution scholar, but regardless of the original intentions (In those matters, I'm not sure they are that important anyway) it is what serves as the basis for gun ownership, isn't it ? Also while the language may be outdated, I think the principle of a citizen militia / arming citizen as a potential balance for abuse of authority is relevant still but I guess that's another debate. I think the Switzerland case, where gun laws are pretty friendly to owners and military rifles are widely held by the populace (namely for national defence), shows that access itself is not the problem.

To be fair to some gun owners though, there is some truth to the slippery slope of regulations. I have been told by an acquaintance that shotgun owners in France felt really burnt when those weapons were seized (without any compensation) in 95... using the registration lists that were enforced a few years earlier. Those who didn't register had a good laugh out of that. The EU has been clearly pushing towards more comprehensive restrictions which seems mostly unnecessary.

Well the Swiss issue those guns to their citizens and I think they even hold them responsible for any missing rounds of ammunition. Here, you just go to a store and buy what you like.

There's definitely the possibility that gun registration records could be used to confiscate an innocent gun owners arsenal, but that's so ridiculously unlikely in a country with such a huge gun culture. I mean most gun owners probably wouldn't blast any G-men knocking on their doors but they would be annoyed enough to vote their politicians out. Was shotgun owmership pretty rare in 95?

[Kara]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267868/

[jakefromstatefarm]

The crime itself?

He's mentally ill because he shot and killed 2 people and he shot and killed 2 people because he's mentally ill. When you retroactively chalk crime up to "he was crazy" you open up an avenue of discourse that ignores the extent to which cognitive behavior, and our labeling of it, is socially conditioned.

[Joe Molotov]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267868/

Poe called Switzerland “the most heavily armed nation on earth, per capita,”

The early drafts of The Murders in the Rue Morgue were a lot different than the final story.

[benjipwns]

I have been told by an acquaintance that shotgun owners in France felt really burnt when those weapons were seized (without any compensation) in 95... using the registration lists that were enforced a few years earlier. Those who didn't register had a good laugh out of that.

This is why it can be dumb to use official reported rates on this stuff. I've seen some estimates that Germany actually has three times the gun ownership that it "reports" in official statistics. You report one gun, government goes away happy, you've still got ten for your Beer Hall Putsch on Thursday, everybody wins.

[VomKriege]

I'm not certain access itself is the problem, although the very large availability plays a role. The problem is the toxic culture of gun ownership that spawns a lobby that won't give in a single inch towards any sensible measure. I believe that any sane responsible adult (any citizen, in short) should be allowed to buy and own firearms (all handguns and non automatic rifles at least, won't go into the particular, the line between what's civilian and "military" is an arbitrary one). In return they should submit to background checks, registration, gun education.

2nd amendment is fine. People hell bent on a literal reading of it as if it was a piece of religious doctrine are assholes.

The 2nd amendment isn't practiced in the way it was intended with regards to providing STATE MILITIAS the right to arm, it was originally put in the constitution as a way for the state governments to not feel powerless against the federal governments military capacity so it's useless today. You seem well learned on this subject for a French dude but I just wanted to point out that it really doesn't apply to modern civilian gun ownership.

In America today, we have two types of gun owners: The ones who just like guns cause they're cool and fun (myself included) and then there's the minority who want a paperless trail to gun ownership because they're paranoid the government might take away the one thing that makes them feel powerful in life. That second group of gun nuts is probably a tiny minority but they're backing the NRA/gun lobby.

Well, I'm no US constitution scholar, but regardless of the original intentions (In those matters, I'm not sure they are that important anyway) it is what serves as the basis for gun ownership, isn't it ? Also while the language may be outdated, I think the principle of a citizen militia / arming citizen as a potential balance for abuse of authority is relevant still but I guess that's another debate. I think the Switzerland case, where gun laws are pretty friendly to owners and military rifles are widely held by the populace (namely for national defence), shows that access itself is not the problem.

To be fair to some gun owners though, there is some truth to the slippery slope of regulations. I have been told by an acquaintance that shotgun owners in France felt really burnt when those weapons were seized (without any compensation) in 95... using the registration lists that were enforced a few years earlier. Those who didn't register had a good laugh out of that. The EU has been clearly pushing towards more comprehensive restrictions which seems mostly unnecessary.

Well the Swiss issue those guns to their citizens and I think they even hold them responsible for any missing rounds of ammunition. Here, you just go to a store and buy what you like.

There's definitely the possibility that gun registration records could be used to confiscate an innocent gun owners arsenal, but that's so ridiculously unlikely in a country with such a huge gun culture. I mean most gun owners probably wouldn't blast any G-men knocking on their doors but they would be annoyed enough to vote their politicians out. Was shotgun owmership pretty rare in 95?

For the Swiss it's not just the military rifles (yeah there's registration on that, but in the past you could keep your gun even after not being eligible to the national defense program, so there's quite a lot of SIG rifles in attics) but gun laws in general. Swiss is considered kind of of gun owner paradise, at least seen from France. The important point however is that weapons of all types are very common there (estimated between 1 to 3 million for 8 million inhabitants) and yet gun related deaths are mostly in line with other european countries.

I don't know how far shotgun (smooth bore, that's the specific type banned) ownership was spread in France. My impression is that here guns are mostly either for sports and mostly hunting (or heritage from an hunter), and I suppose shotgun would mostly be in the hands of the latter. There's over a million hunting permits so it was somewhat common, me thinks, but I don't have numbers at hand.

EDIT : After a check. Smooth bore shotguns were submitted to mandatory registration in 95 and outlawed outright in 98.

[Mupepe]

Aren't Swiss firearms heavily regulated?  Such as registration, ID's when purchasing ammunition and required licensing?  They are also very well educated on firearm safety thanks to those regulations.  The only thing I wouldn't care to see implemented here is mandatory firearm registration. 

Edit:  Yeah, not the typical gun nuts idea of a paradise at all...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

[naff]

Damn. I love the country but the prevalence of gun nuts (among other things) kinda fucks it up for me, puts me on edge while I'm there. Why anything above a 9mm is legal to carry (concealed or not) is baffling. Imo handguns should be blanket banned... And then you can do shit like this, wtf http://freedomoutpost.com/2015/06/man-open-lawfully-carries-ar-15-through-atlanta-airport-without-incident/

"Some may want to argue the wisdom in Mr. Cooley's airport stroll, but I consider it precautionary, especially in the day we live in when a gun is needed to defend someone against jihad for drawing cartoons of non-prophets"

Lel

Nonetheless I got around to shooting some gunz at a range on a recent trip to the states went with an AR 15(inspired by above), glock and a .45. Had never shot a pistol before, and yeah it was fun but fuck living in a place where people carry these things. Gun nut family member kept talking about how great it was to introduce me to gun culture (this was just after the Charleston shootings) dude is a real piece of work, conceal carries his glock everywhere it's legal, and uses the bullets that will explode a dude "More stopping power" has over 40 guns in his basement, is definitely a (not so closet) racist and loves to talk about how he's not intrinsically against socialism just can't stand the idea that people who are too lazy to work are getting a free ride. I asked why he conceal carries - "Chicago's a war zone man", he lives in North Chicago, shit is bourgeois af.  He's never actually been to the south side. And even then it seems idiotic to me to think you'd get the drop on the someone in a situation where you "needed" a gun. Just more likely to get yourself killed and take some innocents along with you in the crossfire.

[milchs evil twin]

Edit:

Meh, stupid "we superior" post. Preserved in the spoiler because I ain't no bitch.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

ORIGINAL POST.
How many countries are there where the Swiss model works?

How many countries are there that successfully restrict guns much more strictly?

Obviously, recreating the full socio-economy of Switzerland would be much easier than the other solution.

PS: Where's my German crying eagle. Homicide rate: 4.7 vs 0.8, firearm related deaths almost 10 times as high, firearm related homicides almost 18 times as high.

Socialism wins again.

PPS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_Germany

[close]

[Kara]

Aren't Swiss firearms heavily regulated?  Such as registration, ID's when purchasing ammunition and required licensing?  They are also very well educated on firearm safety thanks to those regulations.  The only thing I wouldn't care to see implemented here is mandatory firearm registration. 

Edit:  Yeah, not the typical gun nuts idea of a paradise at all...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

Yeah, that link I posted is this but tl;dr. I think you have to reregister over 12 times a year there.

Also Switzerland is a state developed over the course of 700 years mostly through voluntary association and with a strong democratic (in the popular sense) history while the U.S. has at different times been a LARP of the city-state of Athens or apartheid South Africa so comparisons stretch thin fast.

[VomKriege]

Aren't Swiss firearms heavily regulated?  Such as registration, ID's when purchasing ammunition and required licensing?  They are also very well educated on firearm safety thanks to those regulations.  The only thing I wouldn't care to see implemented here is mandatory firearm registration. 

Edit:  Yeah, not the typical gun nuts idea of a paradise at all...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

The regulation are not too different than what is usual in Europe, however as you can see in the article hunting rifles & hand bolt rifles (for example a K31 rifle) can be bought without a permit, merely a simple declaration. That would already cover a lot of ground as far as common firearms go. Swiss gun stores are usually well stocked. That it is considered an haven is probably projection from outsiders but the fact remains that there's a lot of guns in Switzerland per capita (although less than in the US). AFAIK in France you can buy some guns (22lr and single shot hunting rifles) with a simple declaration provided you have either a sport or hunting licence.

All that being said, Switzerland obviously a vastly different gun culture than the USA or even European countries. Thus we come back to the original point : the US problem is first and foremost the gun culture. The large amount of firearms available are "merely" an aggravating factor.

EDIT : On gun related deaths, the number is often deceiving IMHO, as it counts suicides by firearms which are more prevalent with higher ownership. Suicides are a bit zero sum, with no guns people find other ways to off themselves. What separates the US from the rest of the first world is the frequency of gun homicides and mass shootings.

[brawndolicious]

I can't find it but I read somewhere that our successful suicide rate is also higher due to guns. Specifically due to handguns, no one has time to shoot a rifle with their toe I guess.

[Madrun Badrun]

Maybe American toes are too fat for the trigger guard?

spoiler (click to show/hide)

XXL trigger guards only available at Walmart or when opening a new checking account.

[close]

[Kara]

I feel like there's an underserved market here. We'll be hundredaires, Boreans. Think of all the Taco Bell we could buy and deduct as a business expense.

[Madrun Badrun]

Are you saying we should get fat and kill people?  'Suicide Assistant' on our business cards? 

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Aren't you already an accountant?  Do you really need the words on there in print?

[close]

[Kara]

I'm actually governed by some federal rules with regard to what I can and cannot put on my business card.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm a federally licensed tax expert but because my area of expertise is corporate tax and foreign asset amnesty I have to cross train with accounting.

[close]

[Madrun Badrun]

I see.  Just so you don't have hurt feelings that I didn't know what you do, I call all people who work with money-things accountants.

[Kara]

I only worry that Treasury agents will arrest me for violating Circular 230, not about my feelings.

[Madrun Badrun]

Come to think about it, my perception of business structure is the CEO makes all the decisions, the accounts sign each others papers and tell the CEO when he should move up to a better company, the workers are there for the CEO to take the credit and the secretaries are there for the CEO to take his reward.  I think I should have been a CEO major.     

[helios]

[benjipwns]

I'm actually governed by some federal rules with regard to what I can and cannot put on my business card.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm a federally licensed tax expert but because my area of expertise is corporate tax and foreign asset amnesty I have to cross train with accounting.

[close]

That's bone. And the lettering is something called Silian Rail.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I can't believe that Bryce prefers Van Patten's card to mine.

[close]

[Positive Touch]

still unnerved that I saw a person live-tweet himself executing two people in first person today

[Cerveza mas fina]

So the consensus is that the problem isn't guns, but Americans?

 

[benjipwns]

What problem isn't the result of Americans I ask thee?

[Cerveza mas fina]

[Joe Molotov]

Is that 2nd Amendment-tan?

[benjipwns]

Vester Flanagan Threatened Colleagues, Played the Race Card for Years

“He threatened to punch people out, and he was kind of running fairly roughshod over other people in the newsroom,” Shafer added.

Former colleagues told The Daily Beast that Flanagan blew up at two female coworkers in Florida—and that one woman’s husband considered coming to work to defend her.

“In one case, the husband of one of the women, came this close to coming into the station and pounding the hell out of him,” Leval said.

Court papers in Flanagan’s 2013 discrimination case also reveal an apparent preoccupation with perceived racism against him.

“I am hereby requesting a trial which will be heard by a jury of my peers,” he wrote in a letter to the judge. “I would like my jury to be comprised of African-American women.”

Flanagan also mentioned a frequently appearing watermelon as evidence of racial harassment at the Roanoke TV station and claimed he had photos of it.

[TakingBackSunday]

why can't people bring watermelon in because its delicious

[thisismyusername]

http://i.imgur.com/YOzsAZy.gif

Except it was Wednesday.

why can't people bring watermelon in because its delicious

Or grape drank because it's delicious as well, amirite?

[Great Rumbler]

I'm as white as the new fallen snow, but watermelon, fried chicken, and Kool-Aid are good.

[Himu]

This crazy mother fucker...

[benjipwns]

We have this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System

I think there's more laws on the books regarding guns than most people think. There was a large swath of legislation in the late 1980s and early 1990s that already put in place stuff you hear common non-gun folk calling for. Though some have expired.

Like bans on the shoulder thing that goes up.

[Samson Manhug]

You can bypass the federal background check if you buy at a gun show, or a dealer in your area, or armslist.com, etc.

[Shadow Mod]

Or you're from a gun toting fam and just inherit or get gifted guns.