I want to discuss this article by a Gay, Muslim, Pakistani American Immigrant

[Shaka Khan]

... trigger warning: posted on Glenn Beck's website.

http://www.glennbeck.com/2016/11/10/what-a-gay-muslim-pakistani-american-immigrant-learned-traveling-to-rural-alaska-the-week-before-the-election/

Please read through it, and voice opinions. I don't want my personal opinion to paint this thread. I want listen to what everyone who grew up in this country, voted in many elections, and basically have been in this rodeo many times feels.

FWIW, I haven't checked the politics thread because it's gigantic. Sorry if this, or something similar, has been discussed there.

[Steve Contra]

Eh.  White people aren't exactly going to be open to issues about race with anyone besides another white person.  I've met tons of people in Utah and Texas who talk about the economy and other things this guy is saying and then pivot to Obama has given over Detroit to Sharia Law (my personal favorite) or police aren't racist just realistic or they saw someone getting into a escalade after paying for Jordans with foodstamps.  Economic anxiety is nice and all but that's not why Trump got so popular.

[ToxicAdam]

I don't read too much into Presidential elections when they are close. It's a binary choice for many and what influences such a SMALL amount of people to swing one way or the other is completely different among all of us. Those reasons can be frivolous or substantial, depending on where those people are in their lives.

There was no 'typical' Trump voter as much as their was a 'typical' Hillary voter. So, to then make the wide-sweeping generalizations about a nation of 200 million voters because .0015 percent of them voted a certain way (in certain states) doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


Because we have this binary choice for a leader, it's often easier (and better) to create negative associations with the candidate rather than to merely stand on your own beliefs. 'If you support candidate X then you support [unsavory group here]. All of them do it and the people that are true believers of the party then BELIEVE it. That's where the animosity comes from. These unsavory associations we build up and then carry with us for the rest of our lives. It's an evil trick to keep you line with the group.

 

[VomKriege]

First thought : it's sad that you have to prove you're a card carrying good guy in preface, but that speaks to his whole point.
We spoke a lot about the whole "economic anxiety" stuff in the US politics thread.
Otherwise I think he's right that there's two bubbles. Which in itself isn't new, but the problem now seems to be they don't overlap or communicate at all anymore. I suspect the radical and quick transformation of our societies towards urbanization (including mechanization in agriculture and longer supply routes for basic commodities) may play a role in this. This may be especially compounded in the USA because the "flyover country" is, well, so vast. Globalization also means that the real important stuff is being decided that much far away.

Someone mentioned an anecdote in the last 538 podcast that a conservative women told her, in essence, that she didn't understood why all that she was taught was wrong as a kid in her household and community (divorce, homosexuality, premarital sex...) was now right. Is that bigotry ? Most certainly, but it speaks of a genuine feeling : those people do not understand us, and we do not understand them. How do we heal the divide ? I have no fucking clue. I can understand the viewpoint of some liberals that reaching to people like that is not feasible if it means stalling social progress and that they will have to sink or swim... But that's not exactly an engrossing political proposition either because I'm alarmed that letting that divide fester will only lead to violent friction, possibly massive.

I think the political institutions in the leading Western liberal democracies are getting outpaced if not becoming outright obsolete, we probably need to rethink some of that stuff because we need more spaces where people can actually have a discussion, we need to have citizens more engaged, we need better turn over in political institutions to have fresh blood (though career politicians and technocrats are a necessary evil).

[ToxicAdam]

The one change that has happened in my lifetime is the way news is disseminated and presented (and digested). I think it's had a huge effect on politics and America.

Everyone got their news from a dry AP blurb in their local paper (or later, a rag like USA Today) or maybe the nightly news at 6 and 11pm. You could read/watch it and then sit with it and maybe talk to friends and family about how you felt about it.  Any outside OPINION on that news was often in the opinion section or a talking head a few days later. Or you would tune in to the 'Sunday morning news" programs to get the D.C. spin on something.

That left a LONG lag time between the time you read the news and when were fed 'the spin' on that news. Leaving the individual to have some very nuanced opinions about many different things.

Now it all happens in the same segment. Within minutes of something happening there is already a narrative being formed and marketed to you. Busy people don't have time to form their own opinions around world events anymore. So, we have these really strong bubbles of belief that are constantly being reinforced by the outside.  Which is why a lot of times if you meet someone for the first time and you know they believe in "Issue X" you can almost tick off the next "10 Issue X's" on the list and nail their beliefs 90% of the time. It didn't used to be that way.

[Himu]

He is correct.

I don't know a single Trump voter and I'm sure a lot of Trump voters don't know a single Hillary voter. When the election was over, lots of friends on FB said that whoever voted for Trump to get off their facebook.

It's a harsh pill to swallow and something I learned myself recently. The bubble is exactly why this blindsided so many of us.

[Mupepe]

I know plenty of Trump voters.  It's all about welfare moochers, foreign aid and immigrants with most of them.  But these are generally well off folks so that's expected when you think about it.  They have no real economic anxiety.  I'm sure there are some Trump voters somewhere who really voted for him out of economic desperation, but everyone I know did it out of basic racism and a few out of blind Republican loyalty. 

[Himu]

I know plenty of Trump voters.  It's all about welfare moochers, foreign aid and immigrants with most of them.  But these are generally well off folks so that's expected when you think about it.  They have no real economic anxiety.  I'm sure there are some Trump voters somewhere who really voted for him out of economic desperation, but everyone I know did it out of basic racism and a few out of blind Republican loyalty.

We live in a city tho. Are they from rural areas?

[Mupepe]

I know plenty of Trump voters.  It's all about welfare moochers, foreign aid and immigrants with most of them.  But these are generally well off folks so that's expected when you think about it.  They have no real economic anxiety.  I'm sure there are some Trump voters somewhere who really voted for him out of economic desperation, but everyone I know did it out of basic racism and a few out of blind Republican loyalty.

We live in a city tho. Are they from rural areas?

Of course not.  This is Houston.  I was just adding in my experience which seems to reinforce the bubble we're talking about.  My only interaction with people over Trump was with idiotic racists so I let that drive my thought throughout the election.

[Himu]

Same here.

[VomKriege]

Oh yeah let's be clear. The white resentment is real. The racism is real. People who voted for Trump cannot claim for a minute that they ignore his positions even if they voted in spite of those, he said it loud and clear and it was plastered all around the media (the only one I am not sure he endorsed is attack on LGBT rights, but with Pence right behind...). If he isn't just a conman and some of that shit come to pass -some of the violence is already enabled-, it's on his voters.

Empathy yes, naiveté no.

[Himu]

Shaka there's a lot of articles in the past few days detailing this election and its blunders and blind spots. IMO you should read them and check out the Politics thread. Just click the last page and join us. And then when you when you want to catch up on new posts, click New button.

[Himu]

Oh yeah let's be clear. The white resentment is real. The racism is real. People who voted for Trump cannot claim for a minute that they ignore his positions even if they voted in spite of those, he said it loud and clear and it was plastered all around the media (the only one I am not sure he endorsed is attack on LGBT rights, but with Pence right behind...). If he isn't just a conman and some of that shit come to pass -some of the violence is already enabled-, it's on his voters.

That's the complicated part of this. Hillary and the Democrats certainly ignored working class white people. But Trump also ignited a powder keg of violence through awful rhetoric. It's not a binary thing and it would be insulting to this situation to limit it as one or the other. At the same time, it's completely understandable to lash out against Trump voters are racists when you have klansmen forming a victory parade and conservative christian's scrambling to electrocute people like me to make us "normal". There's so many feelings and it's hard to swallow it all. Trump is a fuck ass but the democratic party also completely, utterly fucked up. I don't know if there's on right answer.

[Samson Manhug]

I could write a long reply detailing my insider experiences with white racism but in the end it’s anecdotal so why bother? The basic essence of the matter is that racism still permeates large parts of American society. So much so that in most circles if you point it out, even as a white person, you are considered an agitator and untrustworthy. I work for the federal government and yet still see it frequently. The problem is that if I start identifying and reporting it, I will likely lose my job eventually via managers selectively enforcing rules to get rid of someone, much like any bureaucratic organization. This isn’t my first time in this situation and it won’t be my last.

Not all white people are racist of course, but I would very unscientifically guess that most are. A good way to tell is to see which ones get angry when racism or white privilege is brought up. Only the dumbest outliers will outwardly admit it. Stay safe.

Edit: I want to make it clear this isn’t an insidious conspiracy by any means, it’s mostly that white people don’t even realize they are racist and they understand the danger in being labeled as one.

[Himu]

Shaka what did you learn from Ferguson? That is white America. Or at least, a large part of it. You said you were disgusted how people reacted. That is the real America. That is how they treat race and if you call them on it? I hope you've got a prayer.

[Steve Contra]

Forget Ferguson just look at Trayvon Martin and the aftermath. You had a private citizen murdering a 17 year old and people were ok with it.

[Himu]

I know you have lived a great life in America, but this is reality. A 12 year old child was murdered by police and they tried to convince themselves it was ok and justified.

When I first made my "all people are racist" rant you told me to go fuck myself. You have to consider how I would ever get to that point.

Many white people were explicitly told not to reveal their support for Trump because of backlash. White people will smile to you in your face and vote for someone who dreams of fucking you. This is the cornerstone of white privilege.

[Steve Contra]

Wait I said that?

[Himu]

Talking to Shaka. I made a post saying all white people are racist as my mods help alt. He didn't take it well.

[Steve Contra]

Oh ok.  And yeah, white folks are a racist lot, and systemic racism is what lets them hide it. Never let anyone tell you you shouldn't or can't be mad.

[Himu]

Sure, but there's a point where that type of anger isn't constructive.

[Kara]

Repost from Poli Bore, but it applies to the thesis of this article.

There's an old debate in the Tribe--not old by Tribe standards, mind, but old enough to have largely fallen out of its collective memory here in the U.S. until the recent present--where one side says, "A country that tears itself apart to defend the honor of a small Jewish captain is somewhere worth going," and the other side points out that an innocent man had do a nickle in the can and wait over a decade to finally be exonerated while the most vibrant liberal republican society of its era behaved more like a quinquagenarian trying to find his or herself after divorce number two than the most vibrant liberal republican society of its era.

If we accept the notion that this election was, to a meaningful extent (and in spite of the odiousness of the victor, Scout's honor), about white poverty, the following message was still conveyed to far too many people by it: when faced with privation, or even something utterly banal like having to work harder at making an obsolete way of life sustainable in the modern world*, the American body politic will throw you under the bus without reservation or remorse. I understand the need to humanize people who voted this way--many of you count them as friends, neighbors, partners, et cetera (to say nothing of trying to humanize everyone when presented with the opportunity not to do so)--but ball don't lie at the end of the day.

*The obvious example here being the Amish, even down to the wilful education deficit.

[Samson Manhug]

The post so nice, I liked it twice

[benjipwns]

CNN interviews another Muslim immigrant:

[VomKriege]

She's apparently pretty vocal and one of those people who get regularly cast as one of those mythical "real non white people who vote Trump" invited to TV shows. I don't think her reasoning is very solid or that she is representative of anything besides herself, but that's not really the point. I guess the takeaway is that individuals have their own agency and belonging to a minority is not the be all of end all of who they are. I know it sounds trite because national politics have to operate at that abstract level, but it all seems a bit lost in all that shuffle and talks about demographic X, Y or Z. It comes back to the problem with current political institutions and people feeling alienated to it, I guess, even if as usual some of the blame is on the apathy of the citizens themselves. For ill and good, Republicans are excellent at voting discipline and harnessing single issue voters by being in bed with a couple of major lobbying associations. Those also exists on the left but letting the unions to decay was a major mistake. Work is one of the main socialization hubs by default for a lot of people, and one of the easiest lever to make people care. Unfortunately you can't build that stuff overnight with good will. Unionization need to be rebuild to spread further into office and tech jobs. You need to reach the people where they are at because you can't reliably expect them to take some of their spare time to come to you.