Super Smash Bros. Thread ~ Switching Gears

[bork]

Is that even a thing anymore?  I never see anyone (seriously) talk about it.

[Rufus]

It's a semantic argument stemming from historical baggage, as far as I can tell. People opposed to it don't want it called a fighting games because to them, that describes games in the Street Fighter II mould. The same way that JRPG implies more than just being a Japanese-made RPG (although I would prefer that definition myself). Even worse, Adventure and Action-Adventure, which sound incredibly broad, but actually mean something fairly specific.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

And fuck anyone who calls Zelda games RPGs.

[close]

Video game genres are a complete mess. Strategy genres might be in the best places, 4X notwithstanding.

[bork]

Yeah, I know all that.  I'm saying that I don't see the "Smash is not a fighting game" comments anymore.  For a few years, now, in fact.  It being at Evo seems to have shut a lot of idiots up.

[Rufus]

This was meant as a reply to Slime, but I was too slow.

[bork]

This was meant as a reply to Slime, but I was too slow.

[Tasty]

I mean this is a Kotaku comment who admits he's out of the loop, I wouldn't read too much into it. It was just interesting to see what a competitive Smash virgin thought of such high level play.

[bork]

Yeah, I mean, there's clearly a high level of execution needed, but it still looks like they're just spazzing out and it's so dull to watch happening due to the simplicity of the game mechanics, IMO.  This is one of those games I'd rather play than watch.  Just like how it's the opposite of my liking to watch Marvel insanity matches but never playing the game.

[Tasty]

Well, IMO, it's the least dull fighting game to watch because everything happens at lightning fast speed. "Spazzing out" is an interesting term to use for methodical pressuring, chase-downs, combo follow-ups and edge-guards, but to each their own I suppose.



   





 

[bork]

So doing a combo is , but jumping around and spazzing out is exciting. 

OK. 

Again...it looks like they're just flailing around.  I don't find that particularly-compelling to watch.  There have been times where shit was going on at the edge of the stage and it was cool watching them barely hang on or fight while falling off the platforms and watching the crowd go insane for whoever survived. I like that.

If you want more speed, watch games other than Street Fighter.

[Tasty]

March 2-4!

So doing a combo is , but jumping around and spazzing out is exciting. 

OK. 

Yes, a lot of action on the screen with the game advantage changing hands multiple times in 30 seconds is exciting. How is this a foreign concept?

It's like saying basketball is boring to watch because they're just "flailing around" while holding up baseball as an exciting sport.

Again...it looks like they're just flailing around.

Between this and your "Melee is simple to play" quote I'm not sure how much you know about high level Smash. Getting a combo going in Smash is a hell of a lot harder than executing a combo in Street Fighter, not to mention all the aerial maneuverability.

But this isn't a thread for Smash vs. other fighters, and in fact I made this a separate thread to get away from that. So please stay on topic.

[Tasty]

https://twitter.com/MrWiz/status/823685242099642368

9pm tonight!

Really pulling for both Smashes back again.

For some reason I enjoy watching Smash 4 pools more than Melee pools, but I prefer Melee Top 16 to Smash 4 Top 16. Feels like there's a lot of weirdness and experimenting still happening in Smash 4 at the lower levels that's interesting to watch (plus a larger viable character pool than Melee.)

[bork]

Yes, a lot of action on the screen with the game advantage changing hands multiple times in 30 seconds is exciting. How is this a foreign concept?

It's opinion.     I said it looks like they are flailing around.  I know the depth that the game has.  I don't care much for how it looks in action.



Speaking of sports, I generally don't like watching them, either- I also find sports pretty boring to watch.  I'd rather be playing.  It's the same thing for me with this game.

Between this and your "Melee is simple to play" quote I'm not sure how much you know about high level Smash.

You're mis-reading me here.  I'm saying that the game's relatively simple mechanics don't translate well into a spectator sport for me.  As in the way "combos" are done in the game and movement.  It's a lot of movement all over the place.

Getting a combo going in Smash is a hell of a lot harder than executing a combo in Street Fighter, not to mention all the aerial maneuverability.

For high-level play?    Talk about not knowing about how games play.     Absolutely the same amounts of skill are needed to be that good.

But this isn't a thread for Smash vs. other fighters, and in fact I made this a separate thread to get away from that. So please stay on topic.

It's a Smash thread and this is Smash discussion.  But...ok.

[a slime appears]

That's good it's now widely considered a fighting game.

Also isn't it the largest fighting game community in the world? I see competitions for that shit at practically all non-industry game conventions.

Do you guys know if that's true or I just happen to keep running into it?

[bork]

Not sure if it's the biggest, but it's up there.

[Owl-faced Wizard]

It's a semantic argument stemming from historical baggage, as far as I can tell. People opposed to it don't want it called a fighting games because to them, that describes games in the Street Fighter II mould. The same way that JRPG implies more than just being a Japanese-made RPG (although I would prefer that definition myself). Even worse, Adventure and Action-Adventure, which sound incredibly broad, but actually mean something fairly specific.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

And fuck anyone who calls Zelda games RPGs.

[close]

Video game genres are a complete mess. Strategy genres might be in the best places, 4X notwithstanding.

People can get strategy hopelessly wrong too - lot of confusion between 'tactics' and 'strategy' for example, like strategy games are just more complicated tactical games.

Re: watching Smash:

It has innate disadvantages as a spectator sport - the action has to be zoomed out to accommodate the ring-out system, which makes the fighting a bit less visceral, plus because it needs to support more than two players you can't have gameplay slow down on hit connection like some other fighters do, which means hits can have a bit less 'oomph'.  I do think combos are more interesting to watch in Smash because they're improvisational and work differently at different percentages (especially compared to the predictable and long-winded Mahvel and Tekken combos, yuck).  I think a lot of the criticisms leveled at Smash Bros from the fighting game community comes from ignorance of the game, and ignorance of game design in general.  These are, after all, the people who did more than most to warp the meaning the word 'depth' to mean density/complexity in the popular videogame lexicon, when historically it's closer to the opposite (ie. simple to approach, hard to master).  In a real meaningful sense, Smash Bros is the deepest fighting game out there (on the provision that you actually use words correctly).

[thisismyusername]

That's good it's now widely considered a fighting game.

Except that it isn't.

jumping around and spazzing out

Exactly. Not a fighting game. It's a party game that's been warped to be competitive. I can appreciate the level of control (enjoy your carpal tunnel in a few years, I guess?  ) high-level Smash Brothers has to be played at, but it has no concept of fighting beyond "smash A/B and shoot/rocket them off the stage."

Maybe there's more positioning to it than I see in tournament videos, but like Bork tournament videos are  So I don't bother with it. Like, DOTA (which I don't like) is more appealing as a spectator sport because it isn't "spazzing out." 

Also in all honesty: I own Smash Melee and have put maybe 2 hours max into it. Just not for me and totally not a fighting game (in my sense of definition). I don't get the appeal at all, but I mean hey it works for some folks.

[bork]

That's good it's now widely considered a fighting game.

Except that it isn't.

OK...if it isn't...than what kind of game is Smash?

jumping around and spazzing out

Exactly. Not a fighting game. It's a party game that's been warped to be competitive. I can appreciate the level of control (enjoy your carpal tunnel in a few years, I guess?  ) high-level Smash Brothers has to be played at, but it has no concept of fighting beyond "smash A/B and shoot/rocket them off the stage."

Right...it's a "party fighter" if you want to give it a different distinction.  But it's still a freakin' fighting game! 

Now, something that preceded it like Poy Poy?  That's not what I'd call a fighting game.  But Smash absolutely is.  It's just not the traditional 2D or 3D style is all.

Maybe there's more positioning to it than I see in tournament videos, but like Bork tournament videos are  So I don't bother with it. Like, DOTA (which I don't like) is more appealing as a spectator sport because it isn't "spazzing out." 

Yeah, I don't generally find it particularly engaging to watch.  But I also don't really watch much streaming at all TBH.  I'd rather play everything.  I watch some tournament stuff every now and then and that's about it.  I can't see how people sit there for hours and hours and even days on end watching other people play video games.

Also in all honesty: I own Smash Melee and have put maybe 2 hours max into it. Just not for me and totally not a fighting game (in my sense of definition). I don't get the appeal at all, but I mean hey it works for some folks.

That's great...it's a fighting game.

[curly]

Exactly. Not a fighting game. It's a party game that's been warped to be competitive. I can appreciate the level of control (enjoy your carpal tunnel in a few years, I guess?  ) high-level Smash Brothers has to be played at, but it has no concept of fighting beyond "smash A/B and shoot/rocket them off the stage."

Maybe you should try playing it more that two hours before deciding that? You admit yourself you have little knowledge about the subject, but you still go on and on about what kind of game it is and how it works.

[nachobro]

smash 4 on sunday at evo

melee relegated to the minor league of saturday

re: smash as a fighting game. at this point the fight is basically over, we lost. it's done. i'll accept that at this point.