Author Topic: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*  (Read 3423 times)

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aiii

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With Covenant's release, the mythology makes even less sense than ever. The original 4 all had different writers and directors and as such pretty significant behaviors between individual xenomorphs and the overall lifecycle of the species. Ridley returns with Prometheus and introduces a hitherto unknown background to the species that involves the creators of humanity (and I guess ALL live on Earth (and maybe the universe?)) and some magical black goo that is both a biological weapon and a creation tool, and has different properties pretty much in any given situation.

Remove yourself from all the weird Biblical nonsense and Covenant essentially reveals that the overarching big bad of the series is not Weyland-Yutani, but a rogue bad robot who was created by Mr. Weyland but pretty much instantly hated humans because...idk, he just instantly had a distaste for his creators even before Weyland bossed him around. He's disillusioned with not only his creators, but his creators' creators, so he breaks programing and decides to experiment with creating his own species that can kill both, eventually ending up with the xenomorph as the "perfect organism". Spending 10 years alone experimenting with how to create a xenomorph with every possible species on the Engineer planet, he eventually decided on weird alien wasps as the main basis of embryos, which I guess explains the queen and hive mentality seen in Aliens-Resurrection.

Prometheus and Covenant imply that David created the xenomorph species both unintentionally (in Prometheus) and intentionally (Covenant), neither of which line up with Alien-Resurrection. There's also all the little things, like the Prometheus and Covenant ships being ABSURDLY more advanced than the Nostromo, to the degree of a company in 2017 using MSDOS. I get that the Nostromo was basically a trucker ship, but imagine seeing a semi from the 1970s on the road in 2017, and even that seems absurd in comparison to the technological differences between Prometheus/Covenant and Nostromo.

So we're left with a few options. Either the xenomorph (or its variations, at least) is a naturally occurring species, the Engineers created both humanity and xenos, or David created the xenos. This is not taking into account that, if David created the "perfect organism" by Covenant, that the life cycle becomes more complicated and worse as the series goes on chronologically. A facehugger in Covenant can implant within seconds, while it needs a significant amount of time to do so in the rest of the movies. The chestbursters in Covenant are full on tiny xenos that can grow to full sized almost immediately without killing/eating to gain mass. Meanwhile, 20 years later, they are larvae that pop out not fully developed and need to consume to grow. It makes no sense to me that the perfect organism would become LESS evolved over the years.

So, is there any way to save the series?



chronovore

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2017, 05:44:51 PM »
Quote
There's also all the little things, like the Prometheus and Covenant ships being ABSURDLY more advanced than the Nostromo, to the degree of a company in 2017 using MSDOS. I get that the Nostromo was basically a trucker ship, but imagine seeing a semi from the 1970s on the road in 2017, and even that seems absurd in comparison to the technological differences between Prometheus/Covenant and Nostromo.

Disclosure: I haven't seen Covenant yet.

There's a logic error I feel, in assuming that various technologies are equivalently interpretable. It's possible that humans could interpret and incorporate more information about biology or chemistry than astrophysics or hardware engineering. There's also the fact that, for consistency's sake, until the Space Shuttles were decommissioned, they were running on computers about as robust as an Apple II; they were not upgraded, they had some regimen which required the software or hardware remain constant.

Joe Molotov

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2017, 05:46:35 PM »
Alien is in the same place as Terminator for me, where I'll just continue to enjoy the first two movies and ignore everything else.
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Human Snorenado

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2017, 05:49:25 PM »
So, is there any way to save the series?

...we build a robot that hates humanity to try to destroy humanity.
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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2017, 06:16:57 PM »
is Covenant worse than Prometheus?

You would think that Alien would be a great "universe" to play around in, but Ridley seems hell bent on retconning and explaining shit that clearly didn't need to be (half assed) explained. Prequels that feature superior technology is just an obvious "uh, why?" moment that they never really addressed and don't give a fuck about.

 
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AdmiralViscen

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2017, 06:52:13 PM »
I don't think David created Xenomorphs. At best, he recreated them, since you can see them on the murals in Prometheus

toku

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2017, 06:55:58 PM »
I don't think David created Xenomorphs. At best, he recreated them, since you can see them on the murals in Prometheus

that's just a good old fashioned continuity error i think

chronovore

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2017, 07:11:57 PM »
I don't think David created Xenomorphs. At best, he recreated them, since you can see them on the murals in Prometheus

that's just a good old fashioned continuity error i think

Or maybe that was the Engineers' end-goal, the ideal, but David is the one who finished their work?

toku

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2017, 08:43:59 PM »
Alien: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Momo

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2017, 12:46:16 AM »
Not going to write another tl;dr about aliens, but I dont believe so. David being the creator is consistent with all the non AvP aliens going forward and the tech is easily explained by science vessel vs battleship vs mining ship vs noah's arc. David's been consistent between the two movies he's just super obvious about it now. Also, I wouldnt place too much stock in Resurrection, I doubt that ever gets referenced again

Raist

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2017, 02:39:12 AM »
Haven't seen Covenant, and not planning to do so. Prometheus was absolute garbage.

Rebooting the IP was stupid, Scott should stick to making new movies.

bork

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2017, 07:13:36 AM »
Haven't seen Covenant, and not planning to do so. Prometheus was absolute garbage.

Rebooting the IP was stupid, Scott should stick to making new movies.

Black Rain reboot pls
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Momo

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2017, 09:59:32 AM »
I think Life is an example that a movie like Alien can work, but also why it cant be Alien anymore. If you sub the alien in Life for a Xenomorph, you lose that sense of discovering how fucking horrific this entity is, something we'll never have with a Xeno again. Alien cant ever be a horror with a Xeno being the main horror element imo, which is why i aint mad they arent horrors anymore.

VomKriege

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2017, 10:18:59 AM »
There wasn't much to ruin because "universes" (lore/canon/mythologies/backstories/continuity) are more often than not extraneous, useless bullshit degrading the actual evocative force of movies and narrowing the scope of their stories down to soap opera levels in favor of scratching that compulsive itch of fans and viewers (Needs lore to have Lore Experts, amirite ?). Especially when it's shoe-horned years after the fact, though it's not the only factor.

I'm kinda sad to see a film as good as Alien, standing perfectly on its own and for which part of the beauty is how simple and clean it is, being burdened with that stuff but then again Prometheus / Covenant is only the last in a very long series of spin-offs (though being films and from the original creator do make the revisionism more prominent). But ultimatey most of the mediocre shit stuff should probably be washed away by time.

Biggest Prometheus flaw is not so much it retrospectively make Alien bad (it doesn't, at most it would sour one on all Alien iterations as a body of work) but that the story is terrible in itself. I probably wouldn't have minded (or even have been praiseful) if Scott changed up all of the "mythos" in service of a good film or a new fresh approach... Instead of that we're still getting inferior xerox copies of the original film (evil android, gotta have one. Weyland Yutani because yeah we really needed to know that Weyland was an old cooky guy that got punched to death by a giant humanoid. Xenomorphs chasing humans in dark corridors etc...). To be fair, Prometheus actually had something new with the Engineers but the film is still botched. I'm not sure Scott has a lot that is really interesting to say about creation and faith.
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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2017, 11:05:13 AM »
Fucking Lindelof fucking everything up. Prometheus was so dumb.

Scott can still make an amazing looking film but I don't much faith in any Aliens movies moving forward.

VomKriege

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2017, 11:25:51 AM »
They fucked up when they turned the "Engineers" into albino ubermencsh lame-o's instead of the cool, giant elephant things we thought they were.

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seagrams hotsauce

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2017, 11:41:51 AM »
Hey, don't blame Anklepants for Prometheus.

Blame him for Episode 3

ToxicAdam

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2017, 02:32:45 PM »
Alien is just Jaws in space. Let's not overthink this or try to make it something it's not.

Prometheus tried to dress it up by making the front half a hard-sci set-up, but then Ridley flips the switch and turns it into another Alien movie.

TakingBackSunday

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2017, 02:49:24 PM »
They fucked up when they turned the "Engineers" into albino ubermencsh lame-o's instead of the cool, giant elephant things we thought they were.



WHAT THE FUCK
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Stoney Mason

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2017, 04:18:27 PM »
I haven't watched Prometheus or the latest one. I will some day probably but never really had the interest. The first two alien movies are wonderful but I never viewed these movies as a "universe" that needed a shitload of movies to expand on the lore. It always seemed incredibly simple and from the outside looking in, it just felt like milking to justify more alien movies.

I feel roughly the same about Avatar which I also enjoyed but never thought of in terms of a universe and a shitload of movies to explain stuff nobody cares about.


toku

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2017, 09:56:57 PM »

Bebpo

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Re: Has Ridley Scott ruined the Alien universe? *Open spoilers*
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2017, 01:48:44 AM »
So I saw Covenant tonight after everyone I know has told me it is shit like Prometheus, so I expected the worst. But it was..fine? I mean it's dark and gross and mean and there's still some plot holes and characters acting like idiots in how they approach a new planet, but unlike Prometheus, it felt like the plot in Covenant was pretty logical from start to finish, the pacing was fine, the cinematography/music/acting was acceptable. Basically Prometheus was a stupid ass fucking movie plus the whole space jockey's being giant albinos twist was awful. But Covenant was a technically fine sci-fi movie that told how the aliens went from being black goo in Prometheus to how they were in Alien 1. Whether that was an insult to the Alien franchise that the aliens are just biological weapons perfected by a mad scientist robot in his time playing god with a grudge against humanity instead of being you know cool alien lifeforms, eh, it is what it is.

So yeah, new movie was fine. Way better than Prometheus imo and maybe better than Alien 4. I actually like Alien 3 a bunch, but if I didn't maybe I'd say it was better than Alien 3 as well. That being said, it'd be nice to get a movie where David gets an upending just for pure satisfaction standpoint, don't really need another movie just for that and there's nothing really left to tell prequel-wise in the Alien universe at Covenant. 

I also appreciated how Covenant wasn't just 2 hours of people running from an alien on a ship. There's not much left they can do with that, so I enjoyed that the actual alien running/fighting parts were short little segments vs multiple aliens.