Author Topic: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?  (Read 37276 times)

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Himu

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I hope this doesn't hurt anyone's feelings and that they are written in good faith.

1. Feminism. I support women and women's rights. But feminism is also double edge. For example, instead of women's virginity being placed on a pedastal, now women are expected to put out. Femenism freely brag about how feminists have lead to the sexual revolution, allowing men to get laid with abandon. But this means that women are the gatekeeper to sex. This leads to a situation where women feel forced to have sex before marriage by societal standards, even if they don't want to, because it's what's expected. A movement aimed at giving women more choice actually gives the same choice as before: no choice.

2. Maybe sex before marriage isn't good after all. People would laugh about that. Haha, no sex before marriage? Haha! Or whatever. But...I mean. Look at our generation. We are a loveless generation and those who are in love seem to be exceptions. Between things like tinder, we now have a situation where most dudes don't want to put a ring on it. Why bother if they can they can get it for free? We have cultivated a culture where people are expected to put out on date one. Where people are seen as nothing but outlets for pornographic desire. Where you have STI and pregnant scares. I feel awful for participating in it. Clearly, hook up culture isn't making us happier. It's so bad it's almost impossible to find an actual date, never mind that I'm already trans. I don't want to fuck them. But it's expressed that I should because that is expected. Why reject sex, after all. This also manifests in real harmful things like virginity. People are expected to lose it at a specific expiration date and you don't, you're a loser. We saw things like Atra chase the v card, an arbitrary thing that doesn't ultimately doesn't fucking matter and yet brought unjust stress.

I came to these conclusions by watching the LGBT community. Just recently, were only able to get married in all states. The sex is so rampant. I don't expect it not to be rampant any time soon. But it's just kind of expected. So you have a culture that is all about shallow hook ups. There's certainly relationships and love within the community. I've seen it myself. But the hookups? It's just business. And yet there's always sex involved with every fucking thing in the culture, which is expected but it gets too much at times. It feels so shallow. For this reason I didn't go to Pride this year.

3. I'm not sure about the science worship.i was always bad at sciences besides biology, which I was surprisingly amazing at. I struggled in high school and college in physics and chemistry like a confused leper. I worked hard to pass those classes and it meant staying after school a lot. So I won't claim to be an expert in the sciences. But it bemuses me how we now have a society that takes sciences word like gospel, when this approach betrays science. It's treating science like a religion without the philosophy or ecclesial or ontological processes. I find the atheist life style to be wanting. Maybe it's not for everyone. Maybe I'm projecting my own experiences towards everyone else but most atheists don't seem happy and we have a generation of mostly atheists. Many of whom support the prior two points brought up. Yet we have all this science and tech but no true answers and no one is happy. Maybe not being happy is part of the human condition. Maybe it's based on location? Maybe it's generational? I don't know. But it's not our generation, and while we've been dealt some really bad deals, it's hard to think we haven't helped contirubute to that pain and suffering by heedlessly buying into it. I support the sciences, but the science fetishism is confusing especially in light of criticisms aimed at religion. People say,"religion has done bad things" but science has done awful things as well. But for some reason it gets a pass.

Just some truly random thoughts. I hope they make sense and were written with clarity and respect.
IYKYK

Himu

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I'm not sure what you mean.
IYKYK

I'm a Puppy!

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I get what you're trying to say on the feminism part. Like with anything there are some negatives that come with the positives. But I do think that overall when the tally is done there are there are more positives than negatives on this though. I suspect you'd agree on that, but we'd likely disagree on the proportion of positive to negative.

On your pre-marital sex thing? Having grown up in a society where pre-marital sex was literally almost as bad a murder, all I can say is "LOL, no." I've seen dozens and dozens of divorces that happened because people didn't find that they were sexually incompatible until after they were married. I do think though what you're talking about is a symptom of what my belief that goes against societal expectations is and that's not everyone can have love. The ability to give and receive love is not an "innate" ability, it's something that you have to learn and sometimes people never learn that and sometimes mental health issues get in the way of that. This whole sex thing that you're describing does get in the way of people learning to love, but it doesn't make it impossible.
que

Himu

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I dunno. Is it really sexual incompatibility?

The sexual incompatibility argument kind of rings hollow to me. Let's say you lose your virginity but you think you're not sexually compatible. So you break up with them. But now you're with other people and you might eventually come around to the fact that the first one was actually the person you were most compatible with. It's such a callous way to treat a relationship with a person and treats them like they have RPG stats and as if sex is the most important aspect of a relationship.

The sexual compatibility thing is part of a larger problem of society placing sex as higher than other things. Surely people can learn to make it work? That's what love is. And yet for all the sex before marriage we've had since the sexual revolution, divorce is kind of considered a basic guaranteed thing. So the divorce argument doesn't make much sense because plenty of people who have sex before marriage end up in divorces.

The sexual compatibility argument is so, so awful and really needs to stop being used.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 12:00:13 PM by Queen of Ice »
IYKYK

Atramental

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I totally get where you're coming from, Queen.

I think a lot of people need to dial their hedonism down by a couple of notches and incorporate more elements of stoic philosophy into their daily lives.

BUT... I know better than to get all preachy/judgy about this kind of stuff since that was what I was like at the peak of my religiousness.

Himu

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Maybe my problem isn't the sex itself but the abject hedonism. I'm not really sure.

And yeah, I don't want to get preachy. I get it.
IYKYK

Mupepe

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I dunno. Is it really sexual incompatibility?

The sexual incompatibility argument kind of rings hollow to me. Let's say you lose your virginity but you think you're not sexually compatible. So you break up with them. But now you're with other people and you might eventually come around to the fact that the first one was actually the person you were most compatible with. It's such a callous way to treat a relationship with a person and treats them like they have RPG stats.

The sexual compatibility thing is part of a larger problem of society placing sex as higher than other things. Surely people can learn to make it work? That's what love is. And yet for all the sex before marriage we've had since the sexual revolution, divorce is kind of considered a basic guaranteed thing. So the divorce argument doesn't make much sense because plenty of people who have sex before marriage end up in divorces.

The sexual compatibility argument is so, so awful and really needs to stop being used.
The bolded part sounds like a timing issue.  Timing of discovering yourself.  Timing of maturing to be able to discuss needs/desires.  Timing is a huge part of a relationship.  Right person, wrong time is very much a real thing

Sexually compatible is definitely a thing too though.  Even the most open minded person will likely draw a firm line in the sand on what they're willing to do and accept.  And that's okay.  If your lines are really that far apart then yes, it's a sexual compatibility issue.

I do think many give on relationships way too quickly in regards to sex because they can't even be open minded and honest with their partners.  That is a symptom of culture assigning a one size fits all definition of sexuality and marriage.

benjipwns

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Quote from: Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
The more I think about it, the less I can justify the destiny of woman outside the family and the household. Between harlot or housewife, I see no halfway point.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
okay, so i may be stretching the actual topic just to have an excuse to share this Proudhon quote/piece i recently came across for the first time :doge
[close]

I'm a Puppy!

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I dunno. Is it really sexual incompatibility?

The sexual incompatibility argument kind of rings hollow to me. Let's say you lose your virginity but you think you're not sexually compatible. So you break up with them. But now you're with other people and you might eventually come around to the fact that the first one was actually the person you were most compatible with. It's such a callous way to treat a relationship with a person and treats them like they have RPG stats and as if sex is the most important aspect of a relationship.

The sexual compatibility thing is part of a larger problem of society placing sex as higher than other things. Surely people can learn to make it work? That's what love is. And yet for all the sex before marriage we've had since the sexual revolution, divorce is kind of considered a basic guaranteed thing. So the divorce argument doesn't make much sense because plenty of people who have sex before marriage end up in divorces.

The sexual compatibility argument is so, so awful and really needs to stop being used.
I don't think I can sign up for this. People have needs and some of those are affection and physical too. You can't just ignore these because the nature of the need. I'm not talking about dude x is into bdsm and his wife isn't. I mean a guy's wife literally never wants to have sex. Should she have to force herself to have sex with him? Should he have to go without for the rest of his life? That's not fair to either. And yeah some people can work it out, but sometimes they can't. I see this all the time in mormondom a wife will be OK with sex every few months and the husband wants more and she feels he's a perv for wanting it more often and he feels like she's a prude. Are you saying one of them should feel used or the other feel resentful because they can't get their needs met? That's unfair to both. If they had been able to know what they were like sexually before they got married perhaps she would have chosen a guy with a lower sex drive and he a woman with a higher one. I've heard in mormon circles that marrying someone that has had pre-marital sex is like buying already chewed gum, but at the same time if I'm buying a pair of shoes that I'm going to wear for the rest of my life you'd better believe I'd try them on before I bought them.
que

Himu

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That argument still falls flat.

One man's girlfriend may have been highly sexual; one man's wife might not be. So are we supposed to divorce until everything goes our way? Marriage is love until death do us part through health and sickness. If you can't stay with someone because they won't have sex with you, is that really love? Sure, you may have urges. But perhaps she won't have sex with you because she's not attracted to the gut on your belly? Why isn't this communicated both ways? It cuts both ways, too. If a man loses his ability to get up, does this justify a woman divorcing him?

I'm not saying sexual compatibility doesn't exist, but this description is zero sum, shallow, and treats people like objects. You're comparing human beings to shoes.
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2017, 12:32:38 PM »
Let's say dude becomes paralyzed and will have a hard time having sex now. What then? Divorce because you're not sexually incompatible? It's not that sexual compatibility isn't important. The problem is that it's stressed as most important.

Himu, is your newfound christianity the reason for believing all of this?

Can we not speak of this?
IYKYK

CatsCatsCats

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2017, 12:33:10 PM »
I mean, yes not having a healthy sex life is a deal breaker for a lot of folks, male or female




I'm a Puppy!

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2017, 12:35:40 PM »
uhhh.....have you been married? Sexual needs are like emotional needs. If you ignored your spouses emotional needs you'd be a monster. Marriage isn't "Remember you're here forever!" It's "take care of each other forever, be there for each other forever."

I'm not saying toss people away because sex is bad. But what I am saying is that sex is part of relationships and when it's good it's 10% of the relationship, when it's bad it's 90% of the relationship. It's like any facet of the relationship, if it's left unattended and neglected it will seep into other parts of the relationship until love is replaced by resentment.

edit: and I do have a friend that became paralyzed, there still are things that he and his wife do to connect on a sexual level.
que

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2017, 12:36:15 PM »
Himu, is your newfound christianity the reason for believing all of this?

Can we not speak of this?

I'm not shutting you down or anything, just saying it falls in line with said beliefs. I'll drop it now if it bothers you.

The answer is no, though.

uhhh.....have you been married? Sexual needs are like emotional needs. If you ignored your spouses emotional needs you'd be a monster. Marriage isn't "Remember you're here forever!" It's "take care of each other forever, be there for each other forever."

I'm not saying toss people away because sex is bad. But what I am saying is that sex is part of relationships and when it's good it's 10% of the relationship, when it's bad it's 90% of the relationship. It's like any facet of the relationship, if it's left unattended and neglected it will seep into other parts of the relationship until love is replaced by resentment.

I can understand that, but I also think it's clearly I'm also calling for better communication in said relationships.
IYKYK

I'm a Puppy!

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2017, 01:14:15 PM »
Capitalism hasn't really helped us "progress" as a species. Sure technologically it's done marvels. But we're not happier as a whole because we have an iPhone.
que

CatsCatsCats

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2017, 01:14:55 PM »
Capitalism hasn't really helped us "progress" as a species. Sure technologically it's done marvels. But we're not happier as a whole because we have an iPhone.

We were better off in the trees

(Posted from my iPhone 📱)

benjipwns

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2017, 01:17:14 PM »
But we're not happier as a whole because we have an iPhone.
Well until they showed up with the search warrant some people were.

I'm a Puppy!

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2017, 01:18:24 PM »
But we're not happier as a whole because we have an iPhone.
Well until they showed up with the search warrant some people were.
Wait. You're right. I take it back.

Can I have a mod delete that prior post? If this was GAF that'd be simple.
que

benjipwns

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2017, 01:22:46 PM »
i remember there being a little debate about science fetishism a couple years ago there was like a series of memes that were like pictures of stars or a lightning storm or like a picture of Neil deGrasse Tyson and then a caption of like "SCIENCE!" or "FUCK YEAH SCIENCE"

and it was really more like people loving magic than anything to do with the actual processes of science

Human Snorenado

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2017, 01:25:09 PM »
Human beings are not good at making decisions and when at all possible, we should let algorithms do so.

(This isn't just a "thing I think" but something that's been proven repeatedly.)
yar

CatsCatsCats

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2017, 01:26:08 PM »
OnT: to a degree, true belief shapes reality

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2017, 01:27:21 PM »
No I haven't been married. I'm not sure why you think I'm downplaying the importance of sex. My problem is the way you're framing the argument. You said that sexual compatibility is important - and it is - to find out your mate and justify marrying them. Which is reasonable. But you also mention things like your wife not having sex with you, thus not being sexually incompatible. Your argument for having sex before marriage is one of sexual compatibility. While it's true that your wife who you were abstinent with may not want to have sex with you after you get married, it's also true that this may happen even if you did have sex before marriage. Essentially, sexual compatibility isn't a state that constantly exists. It's something you continuously work on. And if it's something you continuously work on, using it as an argument for sex before marriage undoes your own argument because you can just as easily do this with abstinence until marriage. Even if you're sexually compatible before marriage doesn't guarantee that will be after, which negates the argument towards compatibility.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 01:35:37 PM by Queen of Ice »
IYKYK

benjipwns

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2017, 01:35:36 PM »
ha found the classic example:

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2017, 01:36:31 PM »
I just know that many of the people who like that stuff couldn't get an A in an high school science class.
IYKYK

TVC15

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2017, 01:41:35 PM »
Jesus, Himuro is going to be voting Republican by the time the midterms come around.
serge

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2017, 01:41:37 PM »
Don't think that's fair because that's often a personal choice, isn't it?
IYKYK

I'm a Puppy!

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2017, 01:41:48 PM »
No I haven't been married. I'm not sure why you think I'm downplaying the importance of sex. My problem is the way you're framing the argument. You said that sexual compatibility is important - and it is - to find out your mate and justify marrying them. Which is reasonable. But you also mention things like your wife not having sex with you, thus not being sexually incompatible. Your argument for having sex before marriage is one of sexual compatibility. While it's true that your wife who you were abstinent with may not want to have sex with you after you get married, it's also true that this may happen even if you did have sex before marriage. Essentially, sexual compatibility isn't a state that constantly exists. It's something you continuously work on. And if it's something you continuously work on, using it as an argument for sex before marriage undoes your own argument because you can just as easily do this with abstinence until marriage. Even if you're sexually compatible before marriage doesn't guarantee that will be after, which negates the argument towards compatibility.
I whole heartedly agree. Sexual compability does TOTALLY change over time. And I'm not saying pre-marital sex is a cure-all for sexual compatibility. But, gaining the skills to have a mature sexual relationship is difficult and in some ways the honeymoon phase can be the perfect time to gain those skills, and in others it's the worst. But here's where I come at it from, if there is a severe sexual incompatibility (Like maybe someone is really rough in sex and refuses to change, or somesuch) it would be better to find out before both parties are locked and loaded for life.
que

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2017, 02:07:23 PM »
Quote from: Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
The more I think about it, the less I can justify the destiny of woman outside the family and the household. Between harlot or housewife, I see no halfway point.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
okay, so i may be stretching the actual topic just to have an excuse to share this Proudhon quote/piece i recently came across for the first time :doge
[close]
Quote from: Schopenhauer
One need only look at a woman’s shape to discover that she is not intended for either too much mental or too much physical work. She pays the debt of life not by what she does but by what she suffers — by the pains of child-bearing, care for the child, and by subjection to man, to whom she should be a patient and cheerful companion.
Quote from: Voltaire
It is not astonishing, that in every country man has rendered himself the master of woman, dominion being founded on strength. He has ordinarily, too, a superiority in both body and mind.
Quote from: Nietzsche
Woman wants to become independent - and for that reason she is beginning to enlighten men about "woman as such" - that is among the most deleterious developments in the general process of making Europe ugly.
Turns out a whole bunch of canonical thinkers had some choice things to say about women that today we find reprehensible.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I wanted to include the de Sade quote from Juliette where he claims women are a different species altogether from men -"like monkeys" or something like that- but couldn't find it. :doge
[close]

Raist

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2017, 02:11:12 PM »
Quote
People say,"religion has done bad things" but science has done awful things as well. But for some reason it gets a pass.

I'm sorry, what?

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2017, 02:16:38 PM »
No I haven't been married. I'm not sure why you think I'm downplaying the importance of sex. My problem is the way you're framing the argument. You said that sexual compatibility is important - and it is - to find out your mate and justify marrying them. Which is reasonable. But you also mention things like your wife not having sex with you, thus not being sexually incompatible. Your argument for having sex before marriage is one of sexual compatibility. While it's true that your wife who you were abstinent with may not want to have sex with you after you get married, it's also true that this may happen even if you did have sex before marriage. Essentially, sexual compatibility isn't a state that constantly exists. It's something you continuously work on. And if it's something you continuously work on, using it as an argument for sex before marriage undoes your own argument because you can just as easily do this with abstinence until marriage. Even if you're sexually compatible before marriage doesn't guarantee that will be after, which negates the argument towards compatibility.
I whole heartedly agree. Sexual compability does TOTALLY change over time. And I'm not saying pre-marital sex is a cure-all for sexual compatibility. But, gaining the skills to have a mature sexual relationship is difficult and in some ways the honeymoon phase can be the perfect time to gain those skills, and in others it's the worst. But here's where I come at it from, if there is a severe sexual incompatibility (Like maybe someone is really rough in sex and refuses to change, or somesuch) it would be better to find out before both parties are locked and loaded for life.

I'm not sure why you think this is impossible to achieve while being abstinent. No sex before marriage doesn't mean no sex talk before marriage. I think it's unrealistic to not talk about sex at all before marriage or what you like. I also think it's unreasonable in this case for a man with a micro penis to not his future wife this fact for instance.

But honestly I'm not sure what good sex marriage even does. Every time someone breaks up with me, who I had sex with, it feels gut wrenching. It's another person who I gave myself to, physically and emotionally and it ended up not being that special someone. I worry that if I do find that person, I'll have sex with them and it won't mean much because I've had sex with emotionally and physically with many people prior to them that I'll be numb towards it.

I understand that you think sexual compatibility can change. I respect that and agree with it. But that's not how it's often framed when arguing for a pro pre marriage position.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 02:21:40 PM by Queen of Ice »
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2017, 02:31:39 PM »
Quote
People say,"religion has done bad things" but science has done awful things as well. But for some reason it gets a pass.

I'm sorry, what?

Here. Let me help you with that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

And a recent vox article to make it clear it still happens.

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/3/28/15078400/scientific-racism-murray-alt-right-black-muslim-culture-trump

Walrus' iq and eugenics posts while not having anything to do with race are a part of that legacy.

You could easily say,"that was in the past and wasn't science" but atheists like to laugh at theists for saying things like,"those weren't real ______."

You could also say,"that doesn't happen anymore" but...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/09/28/born-that-way-scientific-racism-is-creeping-back-into-our-thinking-heres-what-to-watch-out-for/?utm_term=.6c22af746568

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/08/how-racism-creeps-into-medicine/378618/

Essentially, placing all 100% faith into science is dangerous as it is just as suspectible as everything else. Science can be a great, wonderful thing. The fetishism? Lol.

Jesus, Himuro is going to be voting Republican by the time the midterms come around.

Lol. Never.
IYKYK

Raist

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2017, 02:41:15 PM »
Science is a tool. It's like arguing that knives can do evil too because they can be used to stab people. There is nothing about science intrinsically potentially telling people to be pieces of shit. Also, it's universal, and as such, unbiased.

Religion, on the other hand, much like any other belief (political etc) can easily be the driver of disgusting shit. It also leads to division (us vs. them).

CatsCatsCats

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2017, 02:56:11 PM »
Science is a tool. It's like arguing that knives can do evil too because they can be used to stab people. There is nothing about science intrinsically potentially telling people to be pieces of shit. Also, it's universal, and as such, unbiased.

Religion, on the other hand, much like any other belief (political etc) can easily be the driver of disgusting shit. It also leads to division (us vs. them).

Only counter argument to this I might make is something along the lines of science calling for definition/categorization and definition/categorization also leading to division (us vs them)

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2017, 03:08:44 PM »
Science is a tool. It's like arguing that knives can do evil too because they can be used to stab people. There is nothing about science intrinsically potentially telling people to be pieces of shit. Also, it's universal, and as such, unbiased.

Religion, on the other hand, much like any other belief (political etc) can easily be the driver of disgusting shit. It also leads to division (us vs. them).

Science is used to be purported as fact. It is a belief as any other. It also has been used for disgusting shit. Scientists will sometimes do things for the research regardless of the harm. The creation of the atom bomb is a great example.

I shouldn't have to tell you the potentiality for harm in believing something as fact and the ways it can be abused. Saying science is "just" a tool is naive, and renders science from responsibility.

Denying the potential science to harm is the fetishisn I speak of.
IYKYK

Raist

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2017, 03:19:51 PM »
Right. I'm outta here  :donot

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2017, 03:23:22 PM »
Good. It's not like you responded to my posts anyways.
IYKYK

seagrams hotsauce

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2017, 03:29:05 PM »
Uhh, marriage only relatively recently had anything to do with love in western society, and still has dick-all to do with it in many parts of the world? And half of people who get married get divorced anyway? What objective advantage do married people have, apart from legal rights?

"science is a belief like any other" lmao. Yeah, I guess I 'believe' in gravity

I'm a Puppy!

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2017, 03:39:38 PM »
No I haven't been married. I'm not sure why you think I'm downplaying the importance of sex. My problem is the way you're framing the argument. You said that sexual compatibility is important - and it is - to find out your mate and justify marrying them. Which is reasonable. But you also mention things like your wife not having sex with you, thus not being sexually incompatible. Your argument for having sex before marriage is one of sexual compatibility. While it's true that your wife who you were abstinent with may not want to have sex with you after you get married, it's also true that this may happen even if you did have sex before marriage. Essentially, sexual compatibility isn't a state that constantly exists. It's something you continuously work on. And if it's something you continuously work on, using it as an argument for sex before marriage undoes your own argument because you can just as easily do this with abstinence until marriage. Even if you're sexually compatible before marriage doesn't guarantee that will be after, which negates the argument towards compatibility.
I whole heartedly agree. Sexual compability does TOTALLY change over time. And I'm not saying pre-marital sex is a cure-all for sexual compatibility. But, gaining the skills to have a mature sexual relationship is difficult and in some ways the honeymoon phase can be the perfect time to gain those skills, and in others it's the worst. But here's where I come at it from, if there is a severe sexual incompatibility (Like maybe someone is really rough in sex and refuses to change, or somesuch) it would be better to find out before both parties are locked and loaded for life.

I'm not sure why you think this is impossible to achieve while being abstinent. No sex before marriage doesn't mean no sex talk before marriage. I think it's unrealistic to not talk about sex at all before marriage or what you like. I also think it's unreasonable in this case for a man with a micro penis to not his future wife this fact for instance.

But honestly I'm not sure what good sex marriage even does. Every time someone breaks up with me, who I had sex with, it feels gut wrenching. It's another person who I gave myself to, physically and emotionally and it ended up not being that special someone. I worry that if I do find that person, I'll have sex with them and it won't mean much because I've had sex with emotionally and physically with many people prior to them that I'll be numb towards it.

I understand that you think sexual compatibility can change. I respect that and agree with it. But that's not how it's often framed when arguing for a pro pre marriage position.
But you're asking people with no experience in anything to discuss said things maturely. It'd be like me talking about how I like to drive my F1 race car.

It makes me sad that you don't see what good sex in marriage does. It seems you only view it as a negative.  That's a sad thing.
que

etiolate

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2017, 03:39:39 PM »
There's a facebook group that is some sort of  Isn't Science Great! or something like that. I wish I could hijack it to put up something like "99% of species on earth propagate through seasonal rapings." See how that goes over with the wippersnappers.

It's just twee culture. Trying to make everything cute and happy fun. Science is a tool as in its a process. It doesn't need to be political or pop culture. It actually shouldn't be political.

I think your issue with it may be the authority science is given by people who do not even understand the science, so it essentially operates as faith on the larger public scale.


Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2017, 03:47:33 PM »
No I haven't been married. I'm not sure why you think I'm downplaying the importance of sex. My problem is the way you're framing the argument. You said that sexual compatibility is important - and it is - to find out your mate and justify marrying them. Which is reasonable. But you also mention things like your wife not having sex with you, thus not being sexually incompatible. Your argument for having sex before marriage is one of sexual compatibility. While it's true that your wife who you were abstinent with may not want to have sex with you after you get married, it's also true that this may happen even if you did have sex before marriage. Essentially, sexual compatibility isn't a state that constantly exists. It's something you continuously work on. And if it's something you continuously work on, using it as an argument for sex before marriage undoes your own argument because you can just as easily do this with abstinence until marriage. Even if you're sexually compatible before marriage doesn't guarantee that will be after, which negates the argument towards compatibility.
I whole heartedly agree. Sexual compability does TOTALLY change over time. And I'm not saying pre-marital sex is a cure-all for sexual compatibility. But, gaining the skills to have a mature sexual relationship is difficult and in some ways the honeymoon phase can be the perfect time to gain those skills, and in others it's the worst. But here's where I come at it from, if there is a severe sexual incompatibility (Like maybe someone is really rough in sex and refuses to change, or somesuch) it would be better to find out before both parties are locked and loaded for life.

I'm not sure why you think this is impossible to achieve while being abstinent. No sex before marriage doesn't mean no sex talk before marriage. I think it's unrealistic to not talk about sex at all before marriage or what you like. I also think it's unreasonable in this case for a man with a micro penis to not his future wife this fact for instance.

But honestly I'm not sure what good sex marriage even does. Every time someone breaks up with me, who I had sex with, it feels gut wrenching. It's another person who I gave myself to, physically and emotionally and it ended up not being that special someone. I worry that if I do find that person, I'll have sex with them and it won't mean much because I've had sex with emotionally and physically with many people prior to them that I'll be numb towards it.

I understand that you think sexual compatibility can change. I respect that and agree with it. But that's not how it's often framed when arguing for a pro pre marriage position.
But you're asking people with no experience in anything to discuss said things maturely. It'd be like me talking about how I like to drive my F1 race car.

It makes me sad that you don't see what good sex in marriage does. It seems you only view it as a negative.  That's a sad thing.

Er, you read that wrong and I wrote it on my phone so it was a typo. I mean, I'm obviously talking about sex before marriage. Not good sex marriage? It's obviously missing the word 'before'? I'm not sure why you think I view sex as a negative? I'm not sure what any good sex before marriage does. Seems to fuck things up more than it helps.
IYKYK

Verdigris Murder

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2017, 03:49:24 PM »
Human beings are not good at making decisions and when at all possible, we should let algorithms do so.

(This isn't just a "thing I think" but something that's been proven repeatedly.)
Good point.


Also lisps and other speech deviances. Why are people so quick to judge? It's not like one of those manifestations of sins conducted in lives previously like wheelchair folk and larpers.
:{]

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2017, 04:08:10 PM »
There's a facebook group that is some sort of  Isn't Science Great! or something like that. I wish I could hijack it to put up something like "99% of species on earth propagate through seasonal rapings." See how that goes over with the wippersnappers.

It's just twee culture. Trying to make everything cute and happy fun. Science is a tool as in its a process. It doesn't need to be political or pop culture. It actually shouldn't be political.

I think your issue with it may be the authority science is given by people who do not even understand the science, so it essentially operates as faith on the larger public scale.

It's really quite odd. Seagrams showed a great example of this distinguished mentally-challenged fetishism. They treat all science as 100% fact no matter your views on the subject. Critique science? "Why don't you jump off a cliff?" Science is great and all, but the "science can never do no wrong" is the shit I'm talking about. Like scientists don't have biases or their own beliefs and are fucking robots that don't have emotions. Scientists can never be wrong because of the scientific method and the nature of science is to be wrong, to find the truth. Thus it can never be critiqued.
IYKYK

I'm a Puppy!

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2017, 04:12:20 PM »
No I haven't been married. I'm not sure why you think I'm downplaying the importance of sex. My problem is the way you're framing the argument. You said that sexual compatibility is important - and it is - to find out your mate and justify marrying them. Which is reasonable. But you also mention things like your wife not having sex with you, thus not being sexually incompatible. Your argument for having sex before marriage is one of sexual compatibility. While it's true that your wife who you were abstinent with may not want to have sex with you after you get married, it's also true that this may happen even if you did have sex before marriage. Essentially, sexual compatibility isn't a state that constantly exists. It's something you continuously work on. And if it's something you continuously work on, using it as an argument for sex before marriage undoes your own argument because you can just as easily do this with abstinence until marriage. Even if you're sexually compatible before marriage doesn't guarantee that will be after, which negates the argument towards compatibility.
I whole heartedly agree. Sexual compability does TOTALLY change over time. And I'm not saying pre-marital sex is a cure-all for sexual compatibility. But, gaining the skills to have a mature sexual relationship is difficult and in some ways the honeymoon phase can be the perfect time to gain those skills, and in others it's the worst. But here's where I come at it from, if there is a severe sexual incompatibility (Like maybe someone is really rough in sex and refuses to change, or somesuch) it would be better to find out before both parties are locked and loaded for life.

I'm not sure why you think this is impossible to achieve while being abstinent. No sex before marriage doesn't mean no sex talk before marriage. I think it's unrealistic to not talk about sex at all before marriage or what you like. I also think it's unreasonable in this case for a man with a micro penis to not his future wife this fact for instance.

But honestly I'm not sure what good sex marriage even does. Every time someone breaks up with me, who I had sex with, it feels gut wrenching. It's another person who I gave myself to, physically and emotionally and it ended up not being that special someone. I worry that if I do find that person, I'll have sex with them and it won't mean much because I've had sex with emotionally and physically with many people prior to them that I'll be numb towards it.

I understand that you think sexual compatibility can change. I respect that and agree with it. But that's not how it's often framed when arguing for a pro pre marriage position.
But you're asking people with no experience in anything to discuss said things maturely. It'd be like me talking about how I like to drive my F1 race car.

It makes me sad that you don't see what good sex in marriage does. It seems you only view it as a negative.  That's a sad thing.

Er, you read that wrong and I wrote it on my phone so it was a typo. I mean, I'm obviously talking about sex before marriage. Not good sex marriage? It's obviously missing the word 'before'? I'm not sure why you think I view sex as a negative? I'm not sure what any good sex before marriage does. Seems to fuck things up more than it helps.
You always think what you don't have is better. I grew up in a abstinent until marriage society and I saw a lot of problems with it. Likewise people that grew up in areas of promiscuity do the same. :trumps
que

seagrams hotsauce

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2017, 04:13:36 PM »
There's a facebook group that is some sort of  Isn't Science Great! or something like that. I wish I could hijack it to put up something like "99% of species on earth propagate through seasonal rapings." See how that goes over with the wippersnappers.

It's just twee culture. Trying to make everything cute and happy fun. Science is a tool as in its a process. It doesn't need to be political or pop culture. It actually shouldn't be political.

I think your issue with it may be the authority science is given by people who do not even understand the science, so it essentially operates as faith on the larger public scale.

It's really quite odd. Seagrams showed a great example of this distinguished mentally-challenged fetishism. They treat all science as 100% fact no matter your views on the subject. Critique science? "Why don't you jump off a cliff?" Science is great and all, but the "science can never do no wrong" is the shit I'm talking about. Like scientists don't have biases or their own beliefs and are fucking robots that don't have emotions. Scientists can never be wrong because of the scientific method and the nature of science is to be wrong, to find the truth. Thus it can never be critiqued.
I'm sorry if not thinking science is a religion is 'distinguished mentally-challenged fetishism' now  ::)

Raist

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2017, 04:16:26 PM »
Good. It's not like you responded to my posts anyways.

I just did, and you replied with nonsense straight out of the young earth creationist playbook. I don't have time for this shit.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2017, 04:22:19 PM »
Good. It's not like you responded to my posts anyways.

I just did, and you replied with nonsense straight out of the young earth creationist playbook. I don't have time for this shit.

Bullshit.

I responded with my opinion and said nothing about creationism - which is even bigger bullshit. You took my post which posits actual evidence of abuse of science and scientific fanaticism and turned it into religion vs science you chuckle fuck.
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2017, 05:36:25 PM »
You can say religion, much like science and whatever else, is not inherently evil as much as it's used by people to gain power and do awful things. But science is an actual tool you can use to move the human species forward, while religion is a hindrance that holds us back.

Where's my fedora at?

Religion is the corner stone of many modern science beliefs. In fact, the Age of Enlightenment was a result of the Catholic Church using science to prove God's existence. Specifically through Newton who was obsessed with doing just this, and Aquinas' Rule of Contingency. Once they posited that God was proven fact, through again, science (or "science"), atheism arose as a natural rebuttal.  Religion and science are like peas and carrots. Two completely things but touch upon each other, mingle with each other, and flirt with one another. Big Bang theory was put forth by a Catholic priest. Human Genome Project was helmed by a Christian.

It's very funny how the atheists who said that religion results in us vs them are actually using us vs them to make religion come off as outdated and unnecessary.

Meanwhile, the theist (me) thinks religion and science both touch upon each other and both reflect two different things and two different realities and doesn't consider science to be an enemy.

Shocking.

(Not really)
IYKYK

Human Snorenado

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2017, 05:52:08 PM »
yar

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2017, 06:44:26 PM »
My stance: religion can be bad, science can be bad; religion can be good, science can be good.

To me, anything else is a symptom of stanning for a team in a shitty ass culture war. Considering that almost half of scientists are believers, the case is made that any attempt to cast religion as "holding us back" through the lens that science is all we need through its observance of the material, as something that doesn't really exist in the real world.

To be fair, creationists and anti-science rhetoric brought forth by silly religious people created this mess. They were overly defensive towards things that actually help belief even easier (through science), cast laws teaching crony creationism and the Bible. This fuels creating atheists.

But the response is that you don't need religion. And if you're religious you're clearly evolution denying dumbass. So they make assumptions about your person and joke you're going to vote republican. Which funnily, fuels more theists because atheistic science nerds have sold us a hollow ideology based off of shitty Cosmos quotes.

Both are extremes and both don't reflect the actual world. They're symptoms of a crappy culture war and nothing more.
IYKYK

brawndolicious

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2017, 07:18:37 PM »
The catholic church wasn't using science to prove God exists, they were trying to use "miracles".

Science cannot prove or disprove a supernatural thing. It cannot tell you who is good or evil. It cannot even decide when a stock is a good buy or not.

The reason is that all three of those things are based on faith and/or irrationality which are completely human traits. That's why people wholeheartedly believe in a particular religion when 80% of the world disagrees with them. Why they feel morally correct killing and then feel guilt. And why the absolute best stock market algorithms aim for like a 95% confidence interval.

It sounds like your problem is with people who have different moral beliefs than you rather than science. Simple example:

Science would be proving that a turbocharger will allow you to get more power and efficiency out of an engine. Somebody you morally disagree with would be doing street racing while drunk in a school zone using a car with such an engine.

That doesn't mean that guy is representative of how engineers think, he's just some asshole.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2017, 07:23:19 PM »
I don't have any problem with science and that isn't what I've said at all.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 07:39:16 PM by Queen of Ice »
IYKYK

Huff

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2017, 07:33:29 PM »
I mean plenty of science or research is bad/falsified/etc but that's because humans and money are involved

The pursuit of science/medicine/answers is never wrong
dur

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2017, 07:39:26 PM »
My problem is the science worship.

STEM and undervaluing the arts.

Stuff like I Fucking Love Science, which posts things that aren't a even science.

"Science" as used to fuel hate and descrimination (I.e. "Blacks are not smart as other races, and science has proved this." "Psychologists say all white people are racist")

 A shallow view of science that is used as the sole thing that is seen as a manner to explore and explain the world. With history, art, religion, philosophy anything else thrown to the way side.

The scientific idea that undervalues philosophy. Many science dork atheists make fucking terrible philosophers and couldn't make it through a philosophy text.

Treating science as fact. "I read on the Internet the other day that ____ is _____ in a study" even if it's just one study and it's not even peer reviewed or it has a small sample size. It is now treated as fact. This is obviously dangerous depending on what that fact is.

The problem isn't science, and never has been science. It's people who worship science and find it to be the sole thing needed to explain our world and have decided that anything that goes outside of materialism is deemed unnecessary. People like Bill Nye are great examples of this. The man isn't even a scientist.

Bishop Barron is far more learned, patient, and eloquent than me so I'll post this video.



IYKYK

brawndolicious

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2017, 07:46:10 PM »
So your problem is with assholes who use science as an excuse to justify why it's normal and all right for them to be an asshole,  correct?

Because ya know I work around scientists and engineers all day but they don't do that Facebook stuff in real life.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2017, 08:30:06 PM »
I've spelled out my problem multiple times and even said that actual scientists often don't believe these binary things and arbitrary and one-dimensional idea of what science is. My problem is science worship, which often comes from people who aren't scientists. It's like you're not even reading my posts.
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2017, 09:29:52 PM »
Even scientists agree with me.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/974116
IYKYK

Mandark

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2017, 09:39:15 PM »
re: abstinence

Like a lot of other fun, taboo behaviors, it's not really a choice between allowing or preventing premarital sex. It's much more about how much secrecy we want around it, and how much punishment we want to inflict on a segment of the people who get caught (and which segment that will be).

People have been fucking for yeeeeaaaaaarrrrrs.

Madrun Badrun

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2017, 09:48:20 PM »
Get real Mandark, no one fucked before the hippies. 

seagrams hotsauce

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2017, 11:07:14 PM »
Himu finds a new thing, takes a hard stance against anything opposing it, ridicules people for not seeing her point of view, softens her hardline view against said thing. rinse repeat zzzzzzzzzzz

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2017, 03:07:38 AM »
How is my stance hard line? :lol

You're just triggered like usual. I've had this opinion on science fetishism for years for example. At least as far back as this Maddox write up.

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=youre_not_a_nerd

I've felt the usefulness for religion and thought that science and religion don't necessarily contradict each other, also for years. I never understood evangelicals for this exact reason. Although I had a stint when I was kind of anti-theist in my early 20's, I've come to realize the use for religion years and years ago and have respected it in kind. You're saying that it's a recent thing that someone who has been to meditation class at Buddhist temples has a sudden change of heart on valuing religion? :lol You don't know shit Seagrams.

There's lots you don't know about me and there's lots of views I don't tell. I was pretty respectful, at least in the OP, and you've acted like a complete dick the entire thread.

Go jack off to science or whatever.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 03:14:24 AM by Queen of Ice »
IYKYK