Author Topic: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?  (Read 37270 times)

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seagrams hotsauce

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #120 on: July 02, 2017, 03:37:24 AM »
I didn't mean to imply you were, just offering why i get aggy when topics like abstinence and sex before marriage etc  come up

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #121 on: July 02, 2017, 08:31:59 AM »
I didn't mean to imply you were, just offering why i get aggy when topics like abstinence and sex before marriage etc  come up

For me personally it doesn't come down to "marriage is soemthing between MAN AND WOMAN!!!" but the fact that I just don't like participating in a culture that forces me to have sex even I don't want to. I also find it quite romantic. To be able to save each other until your wedding day is really beautiful I think. I think that if a couple truly believes in it, and works toward it, then it's fine. Also, I mean, does a man really like me if he can't get his stick happy within weeks of dating me? I might be open to sex if we get to know each other after a long time before marriage. Shit happens. But the "have sex on third date" thing is kind of gross/weird to me in how I have to trust this practical stranger physically and emotionally.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:58:47 AM by Queen of Ice »
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Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #122 on: July 02, 2017, 06:08:31 PM »
That...definitely ruffled my feathers. I haven't been able to watch wrestling ever since Daniel Bryan retired from too many concussions. They put their all into entertaining us, sacrifice their bodies, their livelihoods, their families. Owen Hart died doing that stunt work. I respect it a lot and I can't watch them suffer. Watching the stuff like Jeff Hardy or Edge do backflips off ladders just...it really bothers me. I can't watch "hardcore" wrestling anymore either. It really bothers me and I've become more sensitive towards it as I age. Like,"am I contributing to these people's pain?" even if I recognize that it's their job and they signed up for it. But they have no Union. Punk almost died because of malpractice. I love wrestling with all my heart: the in-ring storytelling, the make believe, the childlike feeling of forgetting that it's scripted and going along with it to the point where it feels real... I love all of that. But I don't know anymore.
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etiolate

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #123 on: July 02, 2017, 06:37:29 PM »
I am wearing cargo shorts.  :-*

tiesto

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #124 on: July 02, 2017, 07:10:47 PM »
I'm not a fan of babies (or little kids). Don't find them cute or charming, and probably won't have kids unless any potential marriage partner really wants them. I'm not a fan of seeing baby pics on FB and quickly scroll past them. Most of my friends and peers are at the age where they're having babies too.

I'm gonna be an uncle later this year too, so I'm at an extra large loss of what to do.
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Madrun Badrun

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #125 on: July 02, 2017, 08:02:52 PM »
Here's one that might ruffle some feathers:

I don't see why anyone is shocked that football, boxing, mma, prowrestling, etc. can cause concussions and isn't very healthy. I think there really shouldn't be any attempt to try to make it healthy, all it does is weaken some of the entertainment value to delay the inevitable issues. It should be common sense at this point that if you want to be a part of it it's a massive risk on your health and you probably won't live for too long.

ProWrestling is a weird one considering it's essentially voluntary masochism in the form of a violent ballet. It's a stuntman circus sometimes. Sure, it sucks that a lot of the stars die at a young age and shit, but that's part of the program.

I'd honestly be OK with bringing back gladiatorial sports. 

brawndolicious

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #126 on: July 02, 2017, 08:32:15 PM »
I'm just making an assumption here but it sounds like you've never worked with people in science-based fields which may explain the reason you feel the need to jump to religion. Because at a very shallow level, people treat it like the opposite of science. Gonna come back to this...

But first, I have to bring up that the way you bring up Facebook groups and Bill Nye, it's fucking disgusting. There are scientists in this world who spend their entire lives actually doing research and trying to make the world a better place. They don't do that on Facebook or on TV. If I said Bruce Jenner is a fraud and deceptive, two horrible stereotypes that people attribute to transpeople, and I just politely asked you to respond, I wonder HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU FEEL? Is that a springboard for constructive, healthy conversation to use bad examples of a group to debate how worthwhile transpeople are in society?

Back on the topic of religion, I myself have a dozen relatives or family friends who are fucking physicists and still deeply religious. That's why I never got the people who think science is an ideology. Religion is something you have to justify like any other belief system. Science is something that's just true and you fit your religious beliefs on Adam & Eve or creation of the universe around whatever known facts there are.


Oh and as an antisocial opinion of mine, I fucking hate anybody who complains "politely" in public. So passive-aggressive. If you're gonna be mad don't be a pussy.

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #127 on: July 02, 2017, 09:02:24 PM »
I'm just making an assumption here but it sounds like you've never worked with people in science-based fields which may explain the reason you feel the need to jump to religion. Because at a very shallow level, people treat it like the opposite of science. Gonna come back to this...

But first, I have to bring up that the way you bring up Facebook groups and Bill Nye, it's fucking disgusting. There are scientists in this world who spend their entire lives actually doing research and trying to make the world a better place. They don't do that on Facebook or on TV. If I said Bruce Jenner is a fraud and deceptive, two horrible stereotypes that people attribute to transpeople, and I just politely asked you to respond, I wonder HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU FEEL? Is that a springboard for constructive, healthy conversation to use bad examples of a group to debate how worthwhile transpeople are in society?

Back on the topic of religion, I myself have a dozen relatives or family friends who are fucking physicists and still deeply religious. That's why I never got the people who think science is an ideology. Religion is something you have to justify like any other belief system. Science is something that's just true and you fit your religious beliefs on Adam & Eve or creation of the universe around whatever known facts there are.


Oh and as an antisocial opinion of mine, I fucking hate anybody who complains "politely" in public. So passive-aggressive. If you're gonna be mad don't be a pussy.

Again. I have nothing against science or scientists. I am quite pro-science. You are assuming that I am religious because it's the opposite of science when I have said repeatedly that it's not the case. In fact, I humbly and personally believe that modern science makes belief even easier.

If you had bothered to read my posts you would realize that my problem isn't with scientists but how people people who aren't scientists (ordinary people) treat science. They place it on a pedastal and treat it as gospel even if they lack base understanding of the material. If they read something on the Internet about a basic test about the prognosis of curing ____ they say that science has cured ____. Racists use science to curate "facts": they take conclusions in lieu of the data to conclusions like "black people murder at a higher rate than the rest of the population, I have stats on my side" or "science says all white people are racist, I knew those cacs couldn't be trusted!" People use science to justify their beliefs all the time even if those belief goes against science and is completely irrational. Modern average non-science people treat science like a new magic. I don't have to understand the process, I just place faith in science. This breeds online (and offline) what is seen almost as a cult of personality, where science is seen as objective truth always and forever. And if it's not true, then that's okay, because science is always improving, and thus perfect.

This taps into what I wrote and posted about Bill Nye. Nye isn't even a scientist. He's an engineer. Yet he uses science as a platform to spread oft ignorant views on things he's ignorant about outside of his domain (which isn't even science, as he's not a scientist). He's deified as a cult figure even despite his lack of science creditials. While he does so to spread information on very important topics like climate change, he also talks about important things like philosophy and reduces important fields to being "rational" when they're anything but. But he gets a pass, despite not being a scientist, because of cult of personality. Cult of which personality exactly? The cult of pop science.

You have not considered a word I've said and instead injected overly emotional platitudes and assumed that I turn to religion in order to reject science, which is biased almost as much as it is uninformed. Continue to assume all religious people are fundamentalists. Keep doing it and make an ass of yourself.

I highly suggest taking a step back and reading the links I provided.

Science is great. It's very important but science illiteracy among the public is dangerous. So tomorrow during your work day I highly suggest talking to your colleagues about how science is perceived by the general populace and whether or not people have a tendency to treat anything science to confirm their already biased views. Again, not talking about scientists, but every day people. Ask them about what they think about sites like I Fucking Love Science, pop science in general, and the online obsession with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Richard Dawkins, and  Carl Sagan. I'd be interested in reading the answers.

You are really sounding unnecessarily butt hurt. Real talk.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 09:15:49 PM by Queen of Ice »
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Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #128 on: July 02, 2017, 09:23:56 PM »
Frankly, your response is kind of what I'm talking about. Any criticism aimed at science is presumed to be an anti-science position. It truly highlights the culture surrounding science fetishism - particularly among liberals - all by itself. I barely criticized science or scientists, and what I did say merely addressed that they were human and prone to error - which any scientist would agree with. However, the bulk of my science posts in this thread were aimed at treating science almost as a faith or a cult, which diminishes and insults actual science. But you didn't get that. You assumed I was criticizing actual science, much like Raist and Seagrams.

Frankly, you prove me right.
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brawndolicious

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #129 on: July 02, 2017, 09:50:53 PM »
Yes I get that you're saying there are people who believe science proves something without knowing yet what the empirical evidence is. But in real life, the only people who NEED to make large assumptions that they can't back up are economists (not a science) and high schoolers (old enough to be angry but not smart enough to understand anything).

Everybody else seems to be able to understand how basic things work if they are open minded about it. How a greenhouse gas causes climate change or how blood sugar burns out insulin receptor are things a person with no college education could understand the basics of in 5 minutes or less.

But your argument that there is a large, society wide battle between science and religion, that's just a victim complex. I've seen it in very religious people who are intimidated by science. And I've seen very religious scientists who just come up with weird, complex arguments that resolve everything like the finale of Lost.

The reality is, there's no threat of using science to disprove religion as that's all based on supernatural shit anyways. On the other hand some people would love for scientists to get a bad reputation when they show that oil companies are ruining the environment or that lead isn't so good for your kids. That's why I'm saying the whole science-warriors vs religion-warriors shit is shallow, most adults don't debate at that level.

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #130 on: July 02, 2017, 10:02:22 PM »
Here's one that might ruffle some feathers:

I don't see why anyone is shocked that football, boxing, mma, prowrestling, etc. can cause concussions and isn't very healthy. I think there really shouldn't be any attempt to try to make it healthy, all it does is weaken some of the entertainment value to delay the inevitable issues. It should be common sense at this point that if you want to be a part of it it's a massive risk on your health and you probably won't live for too long.

ProWrestling is a weird one considering it's essentially voluntary masochism in the form of a violent ballet. It's a stuntman circus sometimes. Sure, it sucks that a lot of the stars die at a young age and shit, but that's part of the program.



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Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #131 on: July 02, 2017, 10:05:32 PM »
One of my favorite examples of the modern science fetishism is the health food craze and food industry in general.

People trust with their lives that because some article they read about scientists saying ____ diet is the healthiest that it's perfect and you'll live forever.

"Soda is bad for you and I read you should drink smoothies instead so I'm going to drink this 60g of sugar smoothie."

Ah, humanity. Ever irrational; completely flawed. :lol Where "science" (note: not actual science) has become nothing more than astrology to help you lose those final five pounds. But don't consume olive oil, I heard it gives you cancer! I read it on HuffPo Science.

Of course, once you're aware of it that doesn't stop you from doing the same shit. :lol
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Joe Molotov

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #132 on: July 02, 2017, 10:11:08 PM »
I doubt most "one weird trick to lose belly fat and cure cancer" articles are actually based on very good science.
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Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #133 on: July 02, 2017, 10:15:44 PM »
Often, they take studies and come to conclusions the studies don't even posit. Or they'll say ____ study says you can cure cancer and grow a 10 inch penis!  Except the study was conducted on animals.

Ah yes, another fucking hilarious example of "science" as sponsored by the US government: the food pyramid! :lol Where 50% of your daily value should be spent chugging milk and bread. Another example of how "science" can be bought. But sssshhhhhh, don't bring that up, you filthy young earth creationist.
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Valkyrie

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #134 on: July 02, 2017, 10:19:08 PM »
As a born and raised Christian in a country of like 90% Christians, I kinda wanna say a few things, but this thread seems so toxic. Maybe I'll check back later. :doge

We don't really hate christians, or at least I don't. All we're doing here is debating topics. I feel we can do that without calling someone an asshole.

I don't think Himu is an asshole, I just don't agree with her on some matters. And I have my own bias against religions(mostly islam) because of my own experiences with it. It is what it is.
I just wanted to say that despite growing up a Christian and going through the typical Christian traditions like being baptized as a baby, confirmation, and such, we were never told by anyone to not have sex before marriage, probably because it isn't mentioned in the bible (I think). Religion can be so drastically different. Even the same religion in different countries or areas. It's not really a "lifestyle" in the sense of Buddism in Thailand to compare, but it is a small part of growing up. Although it's not really a common thing to visit church other than for events (like the ones I mentioned + sometimes Christmas etc). Actually I went to Sunday school in church as a child where we learned about Jesus through drawing, reading and singing (even that isn't common for kids there). Yet we never once were told to not have sex before marriage. We knew it was a "thing" but no one ever tried to enforce us about it, really. Honestly it was more of a thing we associated with other cultures. I think what I've seen on TV and such about Christianity in the US is far more "insane" and "more heavy/extreme" than where I was born (Norway). Not sure how else to put it, because I never talk about religion so my way of thinking isn't as easy to type out if that makes sense. It puts my English to test. lol

Also Christianity in Norway is a bit weird. Most do the normal traditions, yet if you ask them, they sometimes say they're not Christians because they don't really believe in God. And I'm the same, I guess, at least halfway. Was born and raised one but I don't know if I consider myself one by other countries' standards.

Anyway, I do believe it's practiced WAY different depending on where you are, and also the church. I could never relate to people who claim to be Christians that yell shit like "Being gay is a sin", and "Abortion is murder". I think most from my country are raised through Christian traditions but most wouldn't really call themselves an "active" Christian (I hope that's not a term that means something completely different than what I mean here). If people ask what religion I am I will say Christian, but at the same time I'm a huge sinner. :lol :-*

tl;dr: Grew up in a 90% Christian country where no one ever cares about the "no sex before marriage" thing, since it isnt enforced or made into a big deal. Good on people who wanna wait though, it's very cute and I respect it (as long as they acknowledge that those who don't wanna wait don't wanna be called bad people). But anyway waiting is not for me and my human needs.

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #135 on: July 02, 2017, 10:28:40 PM »
I was raised Christian too. In my denomination (extremely liberal) in my state region, we had what we call it,"sex camp". Well not officially. But it's what we teens called it. It was actually called Eighters camp and it was a summer camp for those who were entering high school. A time full of hormones and temptation we were given sex education we wouldn't get in an average Texan high school. They never had an abstinence only teaching. The camp director in fact told us how she lost her virginity at 16 and said it wasn't awful or inherently sinful. They advised us not to have sex, but that if we did, to use protection. On the final day of camp they took out a cucumber and taught us how to put it on safely. Yep, I was taught safe sex at Christian camp. We were even given condoms.

I hindsight, theologically I disagree with it. Not the birth control thing, which is really responsible, but teaching kids that it's okay to have sex. I'm just glad they did so responsibly.

Anyways, I'm not sure what denomination you are, Valkyrie but fornication is definitely in the bible. Check Corinthians. That said, it's good to use your own judgement and common sense. The Bible isn't everything. It's okay to have sex before marriage, so long as it's what you really want and you don't feel forced into it, and you also know how to do it safely.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 10:34:46 PM by Queen of Ice »
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Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #136 on: July 02, 2017, 11:16:14 PM »
Yes I get that you're saying there are people who believe science proves something without knowing yet what the empirical evidence is. But in real life, the only people who NEED to make large assumptions that they can't back up are economists (not a science) and high schoolers (old enough to be angry but not smart enough to understand anything).

Everybody else seems to be able to understand how basic things work if they are open minded about it. How a greenhouse gas causes climate change or how blood sugar burns out insulin receptor are things a person with no college education could understand the basics of in 5 minutes or less.

But your argument that there is a large, society wide battle between science and religion, that's just a victim complex. I've seen it in very religious people who are intimidated by science. And I've seen very religious scientists who just come up with weird, complex arguments that resolve everything like the finale of Lost.

The reality is, there's no threat of using science to disprove religion as that's all based on supernatural shit anyways. On the other hand some people would love for scientists to get a bad reputation when they show that oil companies are ruining the environment or that lead isn't so good for your kids. That's why I'm saying the whole science-warriors vs religion-warriors shit is shallow, most adults don't debate at that level.

Um. I dislike the religion vs science thing, and use science to help my belief. I think you should read back. For one thing, I'm not the person who brought up religion. Wrath originally did. Raist continued it. In fact, I acknowledged that a lot of people participate in some culture war of religion vs science no matter the side, and it's not one I participate in. You are again, assuming that I am separating religion from science when I find them perfectly compatible. My Church has a storied history with science. Why would I deny or reject science or think it incompatible with my religion when that's partially what drew me to it in the first place?

In fact, I'm pretty positive I wrote this.

My stance: religion can be bad, science can be bad; religion can be good, science can be good.

To me, anything else is a symptom of stanning for a team in a shitty ass culture war. Considering that almost half of scientists are believers, the case is made that any attempt to cast religion as "holding us back" through the lens that science is all we need through its observance of the material, as something that doesn't really exist in the real world.

To be fair, creationists and anti-science rhetoric brought forth by silly religious people created this mess. They were overly defensive towards things that actually help belief even easier (through science), cast laws teaching crony creationism and the Bible. This fuels creating atheists.

But the response is that you don't need religion. And if you're religious you're clearly evolution denying dumbass. So they make assumptions about your person and joke you're going to vote republican. Which funnily, fuels more theists because atheistic science nerds have sold us a hollow ideology based off of shitty Cosmos quotes.

Both are extremes and both don't reflect the actual world. They're symptoms of a crappy culture war and nothing more.

I don't support this culture war and I don't participate in it. At the same time, that doesn't mean I can't criticize science worship in the general population.
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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #137 on: July 03, 2017, 02:17:34 AM »
Religion can have a positive effect on some people that need guidance or reassurance, that is nice.

 Ultimately though I consider it a crutch and pointless.

Obviously science has its limitations so I cant exlcude there being "something" but I sleep easy knowing for sure the answers are not in the bible or whatever.

ToxicAdam

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #138 on: July 03, 2017, 03:32:07 PM »
I think men and women are hardwired to only stay together for 5-10 years. After that, it just becomes a battle of attrition until something breaks.

Also, we love groups and we love ritual. Religion fills that need for less imaginative people who can't sate it in other ways.

 

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #139 on: July 03, 2017, 04:30:38 PM »
I think it is natural for humans to seek God. And I quote Pascal:

"What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace? This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself."

Humanity tries to fill our life with any sort of thing, whether it be material (money, belongings, entertainment;etc) or immaterial (power, fame, sex, violence;etc). We can fill it with these things for a short amount of time. Money is helpful for instance in paying bills, but there's a point where it stops making you happy. The rich and powerful aren't content. Eventually, it comes to a point where we continue to need to fill it again. So we get more of what helped before. But it never satiates and we always crave more. The only thing that fills it is God.

I firmly believe humans have a predisposition to seek faith and God. Even atheists seek it, because they want to know if they're wrong. Even the most anti theistic at least ponders it, considers, tries it. A common atheistic tangent is that we are born atheists, but it conveniently ignores the human desire to seek the eternal truth. And that truth is God.

I think religion is the best manifestation available for helping people seek this truth. I think all of the major religions have their own very correct interpretations of this truth. I find spiritual but religious to be a convenient cop out that lacks teeth and more importantly, conviction.
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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #140 on: July 03, 2017, 04:42:29 PM »
There is more peace knowing there is no god then in following some crazy writings from 2000 years ago

I live my life in perfect peace knowing this is all there is and when I die I will be cosmic dust again

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Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #141 on: July 03, 2017, 04:43:09 PM »
And yet through the attempt of making sense of things, they all come to remarkably similar conclusions, just with different language. It's interesting noting the similarities between Taoism, and the essential theology of Christianity for example. All major religions find the ego a hindrance and yet cultivate different means for taming it. It's really fascinating and I don't think humans came to these similar conclusions by mere chance.
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Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #142 on: July 03, 2017, 04:44:28 PM »
There is more peace knowing there is no god then in following some crazy writings from 2000 years ago

I live my life in perfect peace knowing this is all there is and when I die I will be cosmic dust again

The writings are kind of besides the point. The writings were not canonized until 300~ AD. What matters most is God and God is love.  :preach
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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #143 on: July 03, 2017, 04:48:51 PM »
I think it speaks volumes that all these religions where penned when science was dank

Would there really be place for a jesus or mohammed fairy tale in a world where man has split the atom and traveled into the stars?

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #144 on: July 03, 2017, 04:50:53 PM »
And yet through the attempt of making sense of things, they all come to remarkably similar conclusions, just with different language. It's interesting noting the similarities between Taoism, and the essential theology of Christianity for example. All major religions find the ego a hindrance and yet cultivate different means for taming it. It's really fascinating and I don't think humans came to these similar conclusions by mere chance.

Or the fact that religions tend to plagiarize each other, especially abrahamic religions.

Muhammad for instance is essentially that fat dude writing about Captain Kirk and Spock making out.

Of the Abrahamic religions only one I could think that is probably plagiarism is Islam.
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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #145 on: July 03, 2017, 04:57:28 PM »
or any christian holiday basicaly usurping some ancient pagan one

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #146 on: July 03, 2017, 04:59:51 PM »
I think it speaks volumes that all these religions where penned when science was dank

Would there really be place for a jesus or mohammed fairy tale in a world where man has split the atom and traveled into the stars?

Yes, absolutely! Man is limited and science is even more limited. Science doesn't tell us objective truth about the immaterial or even morals. It says nothing of philosophy or any remotely any kind of creed. It's a manner of testing and observation reality and the top of its own thing but nothing that exists beyond that.

The fact that atoms and dna exist shows the infinite complexity required to make life. The human dna has 3 billion letters, and it would take 50 years to type it. Science makes this claim. Only a designer could make something so complex. Modern science makes religion even more beautiful and fascinating. If the Big Bang were were off by just a little bit we wouldn't be here. And we are. Life is nothing short of a miracle itself. :preach
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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #147 on: July 03, 2017, 05:00:30 PM »
also im pretty sure the bible says to kill gays, dont you need to jump through some cray mental gymnastics to be able to worship a god that wants you dead?

I mean no offense but i dont get it. Why even bother trying to be a part of that nonsense.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #148 on: July 03, 2017, 05:01:29 PM »
I’m only here for the Amir0x jokes. I’m gone again once he’s in prison getting spit-roasted by Aryan Nations members.
This is definitely sex before marriage that isn't good.

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #149 on: July 03, 2017, 05:04:44 PM »
also im pretty sure the bible says to kill gays, dont you need to jump through some cray mental gymnastics to be able to worship a god that wants you dead?

I mean no offense but i dont get it. Why even bother trying to be a part of that nonsense.

yeah but thats the old testament

and my church doesnt interpret gods word this way

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #150 on: July 03, 2017, 05:05:48 PM »
also im pretty sure the bible says to kill gays, dont you need to jump through some cray mental gymnastics to be able to worship a god that wants you dead?

I mean no offense but i dont get it. Why even bother trying to be a part of that nonsense.

yeah but thats the old testament

and my church doesnt interpret gods word this way

i see so gods word is like a cheap buffet where you can pick and choose what you want

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #151 on: July 03, 2017, 05:07:04 PM »
yeah, not like Jesus is a rip off of Mithras or anything

This myth was created on incorrect information. It's really ignorant and amazing it still exists. It's really shows ignorance of the subject and an attempt to find facts without much verification, which is amusing in how this is presumed religious people are.

Good reading material:

https://withalliamgod.wordpress.com/2011/05/28/busting-the-dying-and-rising-gods-myths/
http://skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/
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TVC15

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #152 on: July 03, 2017, 05:19:18 PM »
also im pretty sure the bible says to kill gays, dont you need to jump through some cray mental gymnastics to be able to worship a god that wants you dead?

I mean no offense but i dont get it. Why even bother trying to be a part of that nonsense.

yeah but thats the old testament

and my church doesnt interpret gods word this way

It's in Romans, too.
serge

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #153 on: July 03, 2017, 05:24:47 PM »
The Old Testament was written for the Jews. (Pauline portion of) New Testament was written for Gentiles.

common denominator: gays :piss2

told you Abrahamic religion was wack
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Madrun Badrun

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #154 on: July 03, 2017, 05:25:22 PM »
yeah, not like Jesus is a rip off of Mithras or anything

This myth was created on incorrect information. It's really ignorant and amazing it still exists. It's really shows ignorance of the subject and an attempt to find facts without much verification, which is amusing in how this is presumed religious people are.

Good reading material:

https://withalliamgod.wordpress.com/2011/05/28/busting-the-dying-and-rising-gods-myths/
http://skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/

Fair enough, christianity still plagiarizes the fuck out of judaism though.

Fan fiction will do that

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #155 on: July 03, 2017, 05:44:31 PM »
or any christian holiday basicaly usurping some ancient pagan one

This is an over simplification. Many of these holidays that people claim to be "stolen" are the byproducts of pagans converting to Christianity. Christianity molds itself to different beliefs, which forms different takes on Christianity, even within the same denomination - in my case, Catholicism.
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etiolate

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #156 on: July 03, 2017, 06:21:08 PM »
I don't see the point in arguing over adapting celebrations to standardized celebrations.  Annual festivals are pervasive. The Soviets struggled to wipe out the religious holidays despite several bizarre campaigns against them.

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #157 on: July 03, 2017, 06:24:43 PM »
also im pretty sure the bible says to kill gays, dont you need to jump through some cray mental gymnastics to be able to worship a god that wants you dead?

I mean no offense but i dont get it. Why even bother trying to be a part of that nonsense.

First off, I'm transgender. Not gay. Secondly, as you later joked, the Old Testament was meant for Jews. Judaism is a religion of law. There are hundreds of laws within the Jewish tradition. What you are trying to articulate is Mosaic Law. It is very much true that Jews were homophobic. However, as I am a Gentile and not Jew, Mosaic Law does not impact me. Christianity isn't a religion of law; it is a religion of belief and works. In the New Testament, which - PD is wrong about ("NT was written for the Gentiles") - Paul's letter to the Romans definitely mentions homosexuality, but I think you should also consider the context of it. Romans, as we know, participated in horrific hedonism. It isn't clear if what Paul talks about is the homosexuality you'd see on Rome or actual monogamous relationships between gay couples. Another thing to consider is that unless you're reading a Greek Bible the Bible you're reading has been translated. The word "homosexual" did not exist until the 19th century, far beyond Paul's letter. In fact, Paul used a word he made up, which could very well be interpreted as fornication.

Continuing, the Bible says nothing of being trans. You could point to Leviticus (or was it Deutronomy?) about the cross dressing quote, but I'm not cross dressing. And again, I'm not Jew. Nothing in the NT says a thing about trans people and the only hint that does (eunuchs) gives trans people thumbs up.

This is before mentioning the fact even if they are considered sin, God loves me anyways. Jesus met face to face with an adulteress and treated her with kindness and respect, not judgement. Jesus meets a tax collector who goes to the temple and pleads himself as a sinner. Jesus doesn't say,"hate the sin, love the sinner" he witnessed a person aware of their flaws. He doesn't say "stop your livelihood at once." He doesn't even judge. He appreciated a man full of grace in all of his humility and reference towards his creator.

God made me this way. God knows what's in my heart and that's all that matters. Those people who say that gay, lesbian, bi friends and I are sinful are acting on hate and using scripture as law. They act as if modern day Pharisees, and even if they are right, as Saint Paul said,"Faith without love is dead." I know God loves me, and those who use their religion to rule over me and others for just being as God intended are misguided and we pray that they see the wrong of their ways. Until then, we must have faith things will change, and things have changed.

More interestingly is the acknowledgement that theologically, the biblical use of and posits a language meaning that of "between" or "everything within that". When it says God created Heaven and Earth, it generally means Earth and everything between it and heaven, for example. So when the Bible says God created man and woman, it is acknowledging that God created everything between thst scale and said,"it was good."

God loves me. :preach
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etiolate

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #158 on: July 03, 2017, 06:43:12 PM »
You know nobody ever doubts a gay man is gay in the way they doubt the sexuality of others. A gay dude can comment on how big a girl's boobs are or they can say to their friend "Trish, your ass is great in those pants." Yet as soon as a straight guy says another man has a large, beautiful penis then he's marked as PhoenixDark for life.

Raist

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #159 on: July 03, 2017, 07:18:56 PM »
yeah, not like Jesus is a rip off of Mithras or anything

Adam and Eve are a rip off of Enkidu and Shamhat.
Noah is a rip off of Gilgamesh.
Satan is an evil retcon of Baal.
Yawveh was just one of many canaanite gods, and a rip off of Marduk anyway.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #160 on: July 03, 2017, 08:32:38 PM »
Sorry for the lack of replies. I'm at work.

The following posts are very troubling as they show the writer as either ignorant of Christian theology and history or merely misinformed.

also im pretty sure the bible says to kill gays, dont you need to jump through some cray mental gymnastics to be able to worship a god that wants you dead?

I mean no offense but i dont get it. Why even bother trying to be a part of that nonsense.

yeah but thats the old testament

and my church doesnt interpret gods word this way

i see so gods word is like a cheap buffet where you can pick and choose what you want

You are actually demonstrating strong ignorance of not only scripture but Christianity as a whole. Mentioning "picking and choosing" regarding Old Law disregards most of your opinions towards the religion because it shows you have no idea of what you are talking about, much less what you're criticizing. The very basis of Christianity is a new covenant. Jesus even gives two simple commandments. The reason Old Law isn't regarded is in, you guessed it, the very book you said people are picking and choosing to believe. In St Paul's Epistles, he writes they haven't had much luck convincing their fellow Jews of the gospel. But they were having plenty of success with Gentiles. And the question came up whether or not Old Law still applied to Gentiles, since as the original Christians were mostly Jews, it was curious whether or not Gentiles should be considered Jews, and thus, be under the new covenant. St Peter, the leader of the Apostles, agreed. This in the very book you just criticized. :)

yeah, not like Jesus is a rip off of Mithras or anything

This myth was created on incorrect information. It's really ignorant and amazing it still exists. It's really shows ignorance of the subject and an attempt to find facts without much verification, which is amusing in how this is presumed religious people are.

Good reading material:

https://withalliamgod.wordpress.com/2011/05/28/busting-the-dying-and-rising-gods-myths/
http://skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/

Fair enough, christianity still plagiarizes the fuck out of judaism though.

If that's fair then you will find my above dialogue with Lager even more interesting. You are demonstrating even greater ignorance than Lager. The original Christians were Jews. All of the original 12 were Jews. All of the books of the New Testament were written by Jews with the notable exception of Luke, St Paul's disciple, who was a Gentile. Christianity did not "usurp" Judaism. It split from it. The reason the OT is incorporated is because it's a good library of books with lots of poetry and wisdom deemed important by the original Church fathers - who were again, Jews. Jesus himself was a Jew and valued Judaism. He routinely quoted stories from Judaism, spoke in the language of the prophets through the tone of Psalms. Given that Jesus is a Jew and the original Christians were Jews, why would they discard their entire heritage. Before Christianity was, well, Christianity, Jews such as the future Saint, Saul, outright persecuted Christians as blasphemers to prevent the further growth of the religion for the Roman Empire. Please inform yourself. Using this argumentation against any informed Christian will make you scoffed at and (deservedly) made fun of. You can start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

It isn't surprising that you reject Christianity because the one you reject is something that doesn't even exist. But more than that, your argument is really embarassing and I hope you're not serious. It just looks like you read atheist "factoids" rather than actually study for yourself.

The Old Testament was written for the Jews. (Pauline portion of) New Testament was written for Gentiles.

common denominator: gays :piss2

told you Abrahamic religion was wack

The Epistles weren't written for the Gentiles outright. It just happened that many of their converts in the cities Paul wrote to were Gentiles. They were mostly written in the purpose of managing Church affairs, not specifically for Gentiles, especially since many of the original Christians were Jews.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 09:02:20 PM by Queen of Ice »
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Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #161 on: July 03, 2017, 08:39:21 PM »
I'd say to read early Christian history but that's how you become a Catholic or Orthodox, so...:lol

But it's worth posting anyways if it'll make people more informed of what they're saying.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 08:58:06 PM by Queen of Ice »
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Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #162 on: July 03, 2017, 09:24:35 PM »
Over a decade ago I made a thread asserting that Phil Collins and Genesis were better than Michael Jackson: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113310

I still stand by my assertion
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Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #163 on: July 03, 2017, 09:45:07 PM »
yeah, not like Jesus is a rip off of Mithras or anything

Adam and Eve are a rip off of Enkidu and Shamhat.
Noah is a rip off of Gilgamesh.
Satan is an evil retcon of Baal.
Yawveh was just one of many canaanite gods, and a rip off of Marduk anyway.

Can you provide evidence for these claims? :)
IYKYK

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #164 on: July 04, 2017, 11:32:44 AM »
Over a decade ago I made a thread asserting that Phil Collins and Genesis were better than Michael Jackson: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113310

I still stand by my assertion

You're Wrath? I thought Kaffir was Wrath.

I gave my account to him when I was tired of NeoGAF
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Raist

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #165 on: July 04, 2017, 12:51:39 PM »
yeah, not like Jesus is a rip off of Mithras or anything

Adam and Eve are a rip off of Enkidu and Shamhat.
Noah is a rip off of Gilgamesh.
Satan is an evil retcon of Baal.
Yawveh was just one of many canaanite gods, and a rip off of Marduk anyway.

Can you provide evidence for these claims? :)

I'm not sure what "evidence" means in the context of mythologies but... there's been a ton of stuff written about comparative studies of religions.

Enkidu, for instance, from the Epic of Gilgamesh, was a wild man created by gods from clay, who lived in the "edin", was friends with beasts and basically grazed just like them, ended up being tempted by Shamhat, had sex with her, and got initiated to the ways of the gods (in this context, eating bread and wearing clothes and shit - yes, Enkidu was roaming the edin butt-naked before this point). As a result, the beasts rejected him, he left the edin, he became pals with Gilgamesh.

I mean you could view these as incredible coincidences, but considering that this story was written in the same part of the world and predates the bible by several centuries, it's rather difficult to not see these as the basis for the story about Adam and Eve.

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #166 on: July 04, 2017, 02:37:01 PM »
Not to mention how judaism/christianity got "influenced" by zoroastrianism.

source: my degree in history

Huff

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #167 on: July 04, 2017, 02:42:11 PM »
Lol history degrees
dur

Cerveza mas fina

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #168 on: July 04, 2017, 02:55:15 PM »
I hope next time you will pick buddhism or something more original himu as arguining with christians is like a flash back to high school. I think that would actually fit you very well.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 03:01:56 PM by Premium Lager »

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #169 on: July 04, 2017, 04:17:24 PM »
Why does evidence of 'plagiarism' within a religious tradition necessarily undermine ones beliefs in that tradition? No one itt has demonstrated why this is the case. It's perfectly possible to believe in a universal, eternal and transcendent truth while maintaining that this truth is revealed historically. In fact, in the case of Christianity, this has pretty much been the norm since jump.

TVC15

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #170 on: July 04, 2017, 05:34:03 PM »
I hope next time you will pick buddhism or something more original himu as arguining with christians is like a flash back to high school. I think that would actually fit you very well.

I recommend mantra-based meditation, 20 minutes, twice a day. Handles all your spiritual needs. You can also attach as much or as little woo as you like to it.
serge

VomKriege

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #171 on: July 04, 2017, 06:33:08 PM »
yeah, not like Jesus is a rip off of Mithras or anything

Adam and Eve are a rip off of Enkidu and Shamhat.
Noah is a rip off of Gilgamesh.
Satan is an evil retcon of Baal.
Yawveh was just one of many canaanite gods, and a rip off of Marduk anyway.

Can you provide evidence for these claims? :)

I'm not sure what "evidence" means in the context of mythologies but... there's been a ton of stuff written about comparative studies of religions.

Enkidu, for instance, from the Epic of Gilgamesh, was a wild man created by gods from clay, who lived in the "edin", was friends with beasts and basically grazed just like them, ended up being tempted by Shamhat, had sex with her, and got initiated to the ways of the gods (in this context, eating bread and wearing clothes and shit - yes, Enkidu was roaming the edin butt-naked before this point). As a result, the beasts rejected him, he left the edin, he became pals with Gilgamesh.

I mean you could view these as incredible coincidences, but considering that this story was written in the same part of the world and predates the bible by several centuries, it's rather difficult to not see these as the basis for the story about Adam and Eve.

Thomas Römer has had an excellent cursus on the First Testament at the Collége de France for several years but obviously it's in French.
But really I would expect any esteemed university with such a department (Oxford has one, I don't know if they have lectures available in podcast form however) to cover at one point some the similarities of some of the myths in the First and Second Testament to older myths from the same regions or the discrepancies in the text in using El, Elohim, Yahweh. Or the debate about the historicity of Jesus as a person. To name a few.

Kaffir and Raist posts were of course blunt and provocative but their substance are fairly accurate to the current interdisciplinary understanding of the texts and the history surrounding them (the people, their beliefs, the region), within which there is of course large leeway for discussion about how it came to be, how much is borrowed, and what makes the originality of those beliefs (because no one is really arguing that Judaism and Christianism are not, at the very least, remarkable by their endurance and success).
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Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #172 on: July 05, 2017, 11:59:14 AM »
yeah, not like Jesus is a rip off of Mithras or anything

Adam and Eve are a rip off of Enkidu and Shamhat.
Noah is a rip off of Gilgamesh.
Satan is an evil retcon of Baal.
Yawveh was just one of many canaanite gods, and a rip off of Marduk anyway.

Can you provide evidence for these claims? :)

I'm not sure what "evidence" means in the context of mythologies but... there's been a ton of stuff written about comparative studies of religions.

Enkidu, for instance, from the Epic of Gilgamesh, was a wild man created by gods from clay, who lived in the "edin", was friends with beasts and basically grazed just like them, ended up being tempted by Shamhat, had sex with her, and got initiated to the ways of the gods (in this context, eating bread and wearing clothes and shit - yes, Enkidu was roaming the edin butt-naked before this point). As a result, the beasts rejected him, he left the edin, he became pals with Gilgamesh.

I mean you could view these as incredible coincidences, but considering that this story was written in the same part of the world and predates the bible by several centuries, it's rather difficult to not see these as the basis for the story about Adam and Eve.

This only matters if you consider Adam and Eve and Noah to be literal.

I think you'll agree that these are religions in the same area. There is zero evidence of which story came first. And which story came first doesn't matter. You are also assuming that through similarities that these stories are actually telling the same story. These were stories that were told orally and since they happened to exist in the same region they were well known and were memes. These stories are often told in parables. They'll start off with how the story is usually told, but then warp it to change societal expectations. For instance, in Jesus' parable for the Prodigal Son. It was common in those times for Jews to revere their parents. When the prodigal son comes home to his father, and, for the sake of this experiment pretend you're 1st century Jew, it's expected for the son to run to his father for forgiveness. That is the societal expectation. But what happens? The father runs to the son - forgiving him in full and embracing him with love, and in doing so, flipping the expectation of the story. That is how a lot of Jewish parables and storytelling functioned: by taking previous knowledge and flipping it.

Speaking of Hebrew storytelling, you mentioned Noah but neglected that there are over 200 flood myths in the world. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths Coming to the conclusion that Noah rips off Gilgamesh is a stretch. These stories spread wide and fast. Given the sheer amount, what evidence do you have that Noah rips off Gilgamesh?

Also, you mentioned Satan is Baal when Baal is mentioned in the Bible with both being mentioned as two separate figures. The people who worshipped Baal did not consider him bad so saying he's a rip off of Satan is also a stretch.

None of your points have much credence beyond an atheistic "gotcha". Which funnily, has a fundamentalist ring to it. Used in an example, you lash out at religious fundamentalists, but you are offering an argument that rests its laurels on fundamentalism being the only valid interpretation.

I asked for evidence of your claims and you provided none. You literally said that characters of the Torah are rip offs of other characters. Making such a claim, you should be able to provide evidence that the other stories came before the Torah. You didn't. Your only argument is that they are similar. But even with those similarities, they aren't even remotely the same stories nor are they arguing similar things. Your arguments against Christianity - and by further extension, Judaism - are weak. Can you prove that the Hebrew stories did not come first? And if they didn't, does it matter? And since you posit literalism, the only way make your argument credible is to prove - with evidence - that these other stories were imported to the Hebrews.

I always find it funny how atheists as fundamentalist as the religious people they critique.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 12:30:58 PM by Queen of Ice »
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Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #173 on: July 05, 2017, 12:05:50 PM »
If that's fair then you will find my above dialogue with Lager even more interesting. You are demonstrating even greater ignorance than Lager. The original Christians were Jews. All of the original 12 were Jews. All of the books of the New Testament were written by Jews with the notable exception of Luke, St Paul's disciple, who was a Gentile. Christianity did not "usurp" Judaism. It split from it. The reason the OT is incorporated is because it's a good library of books with lots of poetry and wisdom deemed important by the original Church fathers - who were again, Jews. Jesus himself was a Jew and valued Judaism. He routinely quoted stories from Judaism, spoke in the language of the prophets through the tone of Psalms. Given that Jesus is a Jew and the original Christians were Jews, why would they discard their entire heritage. Before Christianity was, well, Christianity, Jews such as the future Saint, Saul, outright persecuted Christians as blasphemers to prevent the further growth of the religion for the Roman Empire. Please inform yourself. Using this argumentation against any informed Christian will make you scoffed at and (deservedly) made fun of. You can start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

Umm you just proved my point.

Never said Jesus wasn't a Jew nor that Christianity wasn't started by Jews. Rebranding your argument as "Christianity split from Judaism, it didn't rip it off" is just a massive goal post move. Which takes your Islam plagiarism comment and makes you a bit of a hypocrite. Jesus is highly regarded in Islam and Islam itself paints Christianity as failing Christ, but I wouldn't go around calling it a sub genre made by old school christianity fans who felt like it got too commercialized, even though that's sorta accurate.

Hell, the main reason Islam even exists is Muhammad's disgust at the worship for what is essentially Arab versions of Pagan and Greek gods, vying to return to abrahamic religion like Judaism and Christianity. And the looooooooooooooooong beef between arabs and jews stems from arabs claiming they're the new direction for Abrahamic religion and the jews are dustheads who can't keep with the times, while the jews see them as blasphemous because it's their religion so they get to dictate where it goes.

No. You literally argued that Christianity ripped off other religions. In the original case, you argued that Jesus is a rip off of Mithras. You were shown evidence that isn't true. Instead, you argued - like Lager - that Christians ripped off the Jews. I provided evidence that that wasn't the case; Christians couldn't rip off the Jews considering that the earliest Christians were Jews and observed Jewish tradition, just with Jesus added on top. Your original claim, that Christians usurped and ripped off the Jews, was proven false. Unless you actually meant by the use of the word "usurp" to overthrow. It is arguable this happened, as anti-Jew was a very real thing as Gentile Christianity grew. But this hold no water towards whether Christianity is true or not and is irrelevant to the current discussion. Either Christians ripped off the Jews, or they didn't. And since we know that original Christians were Jews, we are already know the answer to that.

I hope next time you will pick buddhism or something more original himu as arguining with christians is like a flash back to high school. I think that would actually fit you very well.

I tried Buddhism. I was going to make my rakusu this year. But then in an election year of injustices, racism, xenophobia, attacks on democracy, Buddhists were silent. They had to make articles justifying that Buddhism is a "apolitical religion" as if adhering to common good is an "apolitical" position. My fellow Christians do awful things politically, but at least they have opinions. Buddhists have no objective truth or objective morality. They'd rather sit on their zafu's and let the world pass them by, deep in meditation, in search of enlightenment while the world burns. I saw American Buddhism as a selfish religion.

In a toxic political landscape, where liberals insist on labeling all white people are racist or Nazis or _____ and that conservatives "can't be reasoned with" and conservatives justify wanton cruelty in  the guise of "traditional values" there was a teaching about this man named Jesus who gave the commandment of love your neighbor.

Buddhism has truth in it, I find. Buddha was an amazing teacher but the religion does nothing for me and I have gained so much more being Christian than I ever would have as a Buddhist. I still value meditation however, and instead opt to practice Christian meditation. I will still visit my old Zen Center to say hi, though. I made friends there.

Not to mention how judaism/christianity got "influenced" by zoroastrianism.

source: my degree in history

If you have a degree in history then you'll also know that Jesus existed, right? Provide evidence of your claim that was influenced by Zoroastrianism, please. :)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 01:33:21 PM by Queen of Ice »
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seagrams hotsauce

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #174 on: July 05, 2017, 12:38:51 PM »
Nevermind

Himu

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Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #175 on: July 05, 2017, 12:50:41 PM »
If that's fair then you will find my above dialogue with Lager even more interesting. You are demonstrating even greater ignorance than Lager. The original Christians were Jews. All of the original 12 were Jews. All of the books of the New Testament were written by Jews with the notable exception of Luke, St Paul's disciple, who was a Gentile. Christianity did not "usurp" Judaism. It split from it. The reason the OT is incorporated is because it's a good library of books with lots of poetry and wisdom deemed important by the original Church fathers - who were again, Jews. Jesus himself was a Jew and valued Judaism. He routinely quoted stories from Judaism, spoke in the language of the prophets through the tone of Psalms. Given that Jesus is a Jew and the original Christians were Jews, why would they discard their entire heritage. Before Christianity was, well, Christianity, Jews such as the future Saint, Saul, outright persecuted Christians as blasphemers to prevent the further growth of the religion for the Roman Empire. Please inform yourself. Using this argumentation against any informed Christian will make you scoffed at and (deservedly) made fun of. You can start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

Umm you just proved my point.

Never said Jesus wasn't a Jew nor that Christianity wasn't started by Jews. Rebranding your argument as "Christianity split from Judaism, it didn't rip it off" is just a massive goal post move. Which takes your Islam plagiarism comment and makes you a bit of a hypocrite. Jesus is highly regarded in Islam and Islam itself paints Christianity as failing Christ, but I wouldn't go around calling it a sub genre made by old school christianity fans who felt like it got too commercialized, even though that's sorta accurate.

Hell, the main reason Islam even exists is Muhammad's disgust at the worship for what is essentially Arab versions of Pagan and Greek gods, vying to return to abrahamic religion like Judaism and Christianity. And the looooooooooooooooong beef between arabs and jews stems from arabs claiming they're the new direction for Abrahamic religion and the jews are dustheads who can't keep with the times, while the jews see them as blasphemous because it's their religion so they get to dictate where it goes.

No. You literally argued that Christianity ripped off other religions. In the original case, you argued that Jesus is a rip off of Mithras. You were shown evidence that isn't true. Instead, you argued - like Lager - that Christians ripped off the Jews. I provided evidence that that wasn't the case; Christians couldn't rip off the Jews considering that the earliest Christians were Jews and observed Jewish tradition, just with Jesus added on top. Your original claim, that Christians usurped and ripped off the Jews, was proven false. Unless you actually meant by the use of the word "usurp" to overthrow. It is arguable this happened, as anti-Jew was a very real thing as Gentile Christianity grew. But this hold no water towards whether Christianity is true or not and is irrelevant to the current discussion. Either Christians ripped off the Jews, or they didn't. And since we know that original Christians were Jews, we are already know the answer to that.

Yeah, that they did rip off judaism. Glad you ignored the rest of my post though.

I don't think I believe I said that Islam ripped off Christianity? If I did, you probably misunderstood me. My posts have barely touched Islam, if at all. You say I'm moving goal posts but I'm arguing literally the same thing: that Christianity did not "rip off" these religions.

In any case, you still have not provided historical evidence that Christianity ripped off Judaism. I have provided evidence that it didn't.

Your bringing up Islam is a straw man to divert from the subject at hand.
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Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #176 on: July 05, 2017, 12:56:45 PM »
Anyways, Lager, I'm glad I'm not Buddhist and if you want to know how I got to this point, although I didn't write it, it captures the state of my views. Buddhism helped me find the value in religion and I will always be thankful of that. But it was just a stepping stone.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/68ohks/from_staunch_atheism_to_searching/
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Raist

  • Winner of the Baited Award 2018
  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #177 on: July 06, 2017, 05:40:38 AM »
yeah, not like Jesus is a rip off of Mithras or anything

Adam and Eve are a rip off of Enkidu and Shamhat.
Noah is a rip off of Gilgamesh.
Satan is an evil retcon of Baal.
Yawveh was just one of many canaanite gods, and a rip off of Marduk anyway.

Can you provide evidence for these claims? :)

I'm not sure what "evidence" means in the context of mythologies but... there's been a ton of stuff written about comparative studies of religions.

Enkidu, for instance, from the Epic of Gilgamesh, was a wild man created by gods from clay, who lived in the "edin", was friends with beasts and basically grazed just like them, ended up being tempted by Shamhat, had sex with her, and got initiated to the ways of the gods (in this context, eating bread and wearing clothes and shit - yes, Enkidu was roaming the edin butt-naked before this point). As a result, the beasts rejected him, he left the edin, he became pals with Gilgamesh.

I mean you could view these as incredible coincidences, but considering that this story was written in the same part of the world and predates the bible by several centuries, it's rather difficult to not see these as the basis for the story about Adam and Eve.

This only matters if you consider Adam and Eve and Noah to be literal.

I think you'll agree that these are religions in the same area. There is zero evidence of which story came first. And which story came first doesn't matter. You are also assuming that through similarities that these stories are actually telling the same story. These were stories that were told orally and since they happened to exist in the same region they were well known and were memes. These stories are often told in parables. They'll start off with how the story is usually told, but then warp it to change societal expectations. For instance, in Jesus' parable for the Prodigal Son. It was common in those times for Jews to revere their parents. When the prodigal son comes home to his father, and, for the sake of this experiment pretend you're 1st century Jew, it's expected for the son to run to his father for forgiveness. That is the societal expectation. But what happens? The father runs to the son - forgiving him in full and embracing him with love, and in doing so, flipping the expectation of the story. That is how a lot of Jewish parables and storytelling functioned: by taking previous knowledge and flipping it.

Speaking of Hebrew storytelling, you mentioned Noah but neglected that there are over 200 flood myths in the world. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths Coming to the conclusion that Noah rips off Gilgamesh is a stretch. These stories spread wide and fast. Given the sheer amount, what evidence do you have that Noah rips off Gilgamesh?

Also, you mentioned Satan is Baal when Baal is mentioned in the Bible with both being mentioned as two separate figures. The people who worshipped Baal did not consider him bad so saying he's a rip off of Satan is also a stretch.

None of your points have much credence beyond an atheistic "gotcha". Which funnily, has a fundamentalist ring to it. Used in an example, you lash out at religious fundamentalists, but you are offering an argument that rests its laurels on fundamentalism being the only valid interpretation.

I asked for evidence of your claims and you provided none. You literally said that characters of the Torah are rip offs of other characters. Making such a claim, you should be able to provide evidence that the other stories came before the Torah. You didn't. Your only argument is that they are similar. But even with those similarities, they aren't even remotely the same stories nor are they arguing similar things. Your arguments against Christianity - and by further extension, Judaism - are weak. Can you prove that the Hebrew stories did not come first? And if they didn't, does it matter? And since you posit literalism, the only way make your argument credible is to prove - with evidence - that these other stories were imported to the Hebrews.

I always find it funny how atheists as fundamentalist as the religious people they critique.

Lovely moving of the goal posts!

Quote
The Epic of Gilgamesh is an epic poem from ancient Mesopotamia that is often regarded as the earliest surviving great work of literature. The literary history of Gilgamesh begins with five Sumerian poems about 'Bilgamesh' (Sumerian for 'Gilgamesh'), king of Uruk, dating from the Third Dynasty of Ur (circa 2100 BC).

So you're telling me that the bible might have been first to tell that story? You could have taken 10s to check when the Epic of Gilgamesh was written.
It seems quite obvious that your knowledge of religions is incredibly lacking - not that I'm surprised, many studies have shown that atheists are actually generally more knowledgeable on the topic that religious folks. But please, by all means continue to pretend that maybe the hebrews predated the sumerians. The evidence is that we have sumerian texts dating CENTURIES earlier than any hebrew texts.

Satan, AKA Beelzebub (Lord of the Flies), is widely accepted to be a corruption of Ba'al Zebul (Lord of the Heavens). Like many things in religion, this was done for political reasons - mocking other gods, which are apparently not the real one true god. Or similarly, how Yawveh, the god of war of a pantheon with many gods, was over time turned into the Only One True God by people with an agenda - Extremist Yawhists. This was mostly started around the time Babylon conquered Judah, primarily by the prophet Jeremiah, and finalized when hebrews were exiled, by the prophet Isaiah (the second one).

You're asking for details and evidence, but then dismiss it, and preempt by saying "well even if you give me evidence it doesn't matter". Typical of strongly religious people, who will make claims, get debunked, and go on to say well it doesn't matter. You don't seem to be open to any sort of discussion and new knowledge. If you somehow still are a bit, I suggest "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong, that's a good place to start.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 05:47:41 AM by Raist »

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #178 on: July 06, 2017, 12:05:53 PM »
yeah, not like Jesus is a rip off of Mithras or anything

Adam and Eve are a rip off of Enkidu and Shamhat.
Noah is a rip off of Gilgamesh.
Satan is an evil retcon of Baal.
Yawveh was just one of many canaanite gods, and a rip off of Marduk anyway.

Can you provide evidence for these claims? :)

I'm not sure what "evidence" means in the context of mythologies but... there's been a ton of stuff written about comparative studies of religions.

Enkidu, for instance, from the Epic of Gilgamesh, was a wild man created by gods from clay, who lived in the "edin", was friends with beasts and basically grazed just like them, ended up being tempted by Shamhat, had sex with her, and got initiated to the ways of the gods (in this context, eating bread and wearing clothes and shit - yes, Enkidu was roaming the edin butt-naked before this point). As a result, the beasts rejected him, he left the edin, he became pals with Gilgamesh.

I mean you could view these as incredible coincidences, but considering that this story was written in the same part of the world and predates the bible by several centuries, it's rather difficult to not see these as the basis for the story about Adam and Eve.

This only matters if you consider Adam and Eve and Noah to be literal.

I think you'll agree that these are religions in the same area. There is zero evidence of which story came first. And which story came first doesn't matter. You are also assuming that through similarities that these stories are actually telling the same story. These were stories that were told orally and since they happened to exist in the same region they were well known and were memes. These stories are often told in parables. They'll start off with how the story is usually told, but then warp it to change societal expectations. For instance, in Jesus' parable for the Prodigal Son. It was common in those times for Jews to revere their parents. When the prodigal son comes home to his father, and, for the sake of this experiment pretend you're 1st century Jew, it's expected for the son to run to his father for forgiveness. That is the societal expectation. But what happens? The father runs to the son - forgiving him in full and embracing him with love, and in doing so, flipping the expectation of the story. That is how a lot of Jewish parables and storytelling functioned: by taking previous knowledge and flipping it.

Speaking of Hebrew storytelling, you mentioned Noah but neglected that there are over 200 flood myths in the world. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths Coming to the conclusion that Noah rips off Gilgamesh is a stretch. These stories spread wide and fast. Given the sheer amount, what evidence do you have that Noah rips off Gilgamesh?

Also, you mentioned Satan is Baal when Baal is mentioned in the Bible with both being mentioned as two separate figures. The people who worshipped Baal did not consider him bad so saying he's a rip off of Satan is also a stretch.

None of your points have much credence beyond an atheistic "gotcha". Which funnily, has a fundamentalist ring to it. Used in an example, you lash out at religious fundamentalists, but you are offering an argument that rests its laurels on fundamentalism being the only valid interpretation.

I asked for evidence of your claims and you provided none. You literally said that characters of the Torah are rip offs of other characters. Making such a claim, you should be able to provide evidence that the other stories came before the Torah. You didn't. Your only argument is that they are similar. But even with those similarities, they aren't even remotely the same stories nor are they arguing similar things. Your arguments against Christianity - and by further extension, Judaism - are weak. Can you prove that the Hebrew stories did not come first? And if they didn't, does it matter? And since you posit literalism, the only way make your argument credible is to prove - with evidence - that these other stories were imported to the Hebrews.

I always find it funny how atheists as fundamentalist as the religious people they critique.

Lovely moving of the goal posts!

Quote
The Epic of Gilgamesh is an epic poem from ancient Mesopotamia that is often regarded as the earliest surviving great work of literature. The literary history of Gilgamesh begins with five Sumerian poems about 'Bilgamesh' (Sumerian for 'Gilgamesh'), king of Uruk, dating from the Third Dynasty of Ur (circa 2100 BC).

So you're telling me that the bible might have been first to tell that story? You could have taken 10s to check when the Epic of Gilgamesh was written.
It seems quite obvious that your knowledge of religions is incredibly lacking - not that I'm surprised, many studies have shown that atheists are actually generally more knowledgeable on the topic that religious folks. But please, by all means continue to pretend that maybe the hebrews predated the sumerians. The evidence is that we have sumerian texts dating CENTURIES earlier than any hebrew texts.

Satan, AKA Beelzebub (Lord of the Flies), is widely accepted to be a corruption of Ba'al Zebul (Lord of the Heavens). Like many things in religion, this was done for political reasons - mocking other gods, which are apparently not the real one true god. Or similarly, how Yawveh, the god of war of a pantheon with many gods, was over time turned into the Only One True God by people with an agenda - Extremist Yawhists. This was mostly started around the time Babylon conquered Judah, primarily by the prophet Jeremiah, and finalized when hebrews were exiled, by the prophet Isaiah (the second one).

You're asking for details and evidence, but then dismiss it, and preempt by saying "well even if you give me evidence it doesn't matter". Typical of strongly religious people, who will make claims, get debunked, and go on to say well it doesn't matter. You don't seem to be open to any sort of discussion and new knowledge. If you somehow still are a bit, I suggest "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong, that's a good place to start.

I haven't moved a single goal post and it's funny how you lot keep using that phrase when it's not even happening. I asked for evidence, you didn't give me any. I'm fully aware of the claim being made. I was an atheist for ten years. I have been conducive to conversation, but you are not willing to discuss. Just throw out things like "young Earth creationist" and "not that I'm surprised, many studies have shown that atheists are actually generally more knowledgeable on the topic that religious folks". You never really debunked me, as the question I asked for was evidence.

I didn't dismiss details and evidence only to dismiss it. You did not provide evidence. You said "Adam and Eve is a rip off of Enkidu". I asked for evidence. Talked about Gilgamesh myths. You provided the similarities, true. But you did not provide evidence that Adam and Eve "ripped off" Enkidu. Again, since you dismissed my entire point and post, Hebrews told stories in a specific ways. Have you read the stories of Enkidu and Adam and Eve?

In the old Mesopotamian myths, Enkidu is created as a rival God to Gilgamesh.

Let me quote the basics of the stories for you:

Quote
The people of Uruk complain to the gods that their mighty king Gilgamesh is too harsh. The goddess Aruru forms Enkidu from water and clay as rival to Gilgamesh, as a countervailing force. Enkidu lived in the wild, roaming with the herds, and joining the game at the watering-hole. M.H. Henze notes in this an early Mesopotamian tradition of the wild man living apart and roaming the hinterland, who eats grass like the animals and like them, drinks from the watering places.[2] A hunter sees him and realizes that it is Enkidu who is freeing the animals from his traps. He reports this to Gilgamesh, who sends the temple prostitute, Shamhat, to deal with him.[3]

Enkidu spends six days and seven nights making love with Shamhat, after which, sensing her scent upon him, the animals flee from him, and he finds he cannot return to his old ways.[4] He returns to Shamhat, who teaches him the ways of civilized people. He now protects the shepherd's flock against predators, turning against his old life. Jastrow and Clay are of the opinion that the story of Enkidu was originally a separate tale to illustrate "man's career and destiny, how through intercourse with a woman he awakens to the sense of human dignity, ..."[5]

Shamhat tells him of the city of Uruk and of its king Gilgamesh. He travels to Uruk and engages Gilgamesh in a wrestling match as a test of strength. Gilgamesh wins and the two become fast friends.

and

Quote
In the Book of Genesis of the Hebrew Bible, chapters one through five, there are two creation narratives with two distinct perspectives. In the first, Adam and Eve are not mentioned (at least not mentioned by name). Instead, God created humankind in God's image and instructed them to multiply and to be stewards over everything else that God had made. In the second narrative, God fashions Adam from dust and places him in the Garden of Eden. Adam is told that he can till the ground and eat freely of all the trees in the garden, except for a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Subsequently, Eve is created from one of Adam's ribs to be Adam's companion. They are innocent and unembarrassed about their nakedness. However, a serpent deceives Eve into eating fruit from the forbidden tree, and she gives some of the fruit to Adam. These acts give them additional knowledge, but it gives them the ability to conjure negative and destructive concepts such as shame and evil. God later curses the serpent and the ground. God prophetically tells the woman and the man what will be the consequences of their sin of disobeying God. Then he banishes them from the Garden of Eden.

To say that Adam and Eve ripped off Enkidu is disingenuous. As said, these are two completely different stories coming to two completely different conclusions. Much like in my example for Jesus' parables and flood myths, these stories were spread orally. It's extremely likely the Hebrews knew of Gilgamesh. The molding of clay is used to set the tone of the story. If ancient Hebrews knew of Enkidu and his being molded of clay, then when they hear this story, they'll come to expect the same thing. Instead, the story flips it. This is a commonality among a lot of Hebrew story-telling. In this case, the Goddess Aruru molds Enkidu. Yahweh molds Adam from dust. Both stories use temptation. This is acknowledged. Very similar, but reading about Enkidu reveals that the story is about man fulfilling his destiny; Adam and Eve is about man trying to fulfill his destiny, thinking that's okay, and falling out of favor with God. In Gilgamesh, the story is used to show that man has his own destiny through his own will. In the book of Genesis, the Hebrews used the archetype, or trope of that same story, to tell their perspective: that man's attempt as finding his own destiny results in sin and separation from God. In one story, human determination is valued; in the other it is scorned. Jewish religious text was very good at doing this type of "you think it's one way, but it's the other way" type of story telling. But, given how much you know about religion, I'm sure you're already familiar with this.  :doge

This is what I was basically saying: that similarities does not necessarily mean that they are inherently ripped off. You are angling this argument in a highly literalist manner.

Anyways, regarding your claims. The quote you posted says "earliest surviving". It's what we currently know is the oldest surviving. I have also provided a link to flood myths. My point is that Gilgamesh is hardly unique on this point, especially given those aforementioned flood myths. Basically, you could come to the conclusion that all flood myths come from the same source and ripped Gilgamesh off. That's not to say I think that the book of Genesis was written before Gilgamesh. Honestly, even if it was, it's not relevant to my faith. I'm just making sure that you are aware that you don't actually have evidence of which came first. Given your claim that ____ ripped off _____ you would have evidence of this. Archaelogy is a peculiar thing. We have cities made now and can't necessarily excavate everywhere. However, we do know that there's evidence of Hebrew religion at least 3,000 years old. [source: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/10/30/israel.ancient.text/index.html] All I'm saying, is that you shouldn't make claims of authority when the text you even quoted states "earliest surviving." It is a position of knowledge regarding a subject that renders very, very inconsistent results especially given that early religion - as you would probably know - was generally handed down orally. [source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition][source: http://www.jweekly.com/2016/02/26/its-no-myth-jews-storytelling-and-the-oral-tradition/]

As for Beelzebub, I need clarification on this point. When you speak of Baal are you talking about NT or OT?

As for Karen Armstrong's History of God, I read it ten years ago. I am well versed in most atheist arguments, as I was one for a decade. You are misunderstanding my arguments being made and are claiming authority and saying I'm ignorant when I'm anything but. I've heard these claims. All I asked for was evidence.

Your tone is coming off highly arrogant. You should tone it down and actually try to discuss things. You have been insulting me since page 1. I'm willing to discuss things but you have not. I don't think there's much dispute on that. You've been arguing like a typical "new atheist". Come down the rabbit hole, and I'll fight you like a philosopher atheist. Aside from your quote about Gilgamesh and Enkidu you have provided zero evidence. Just factoids and summaries.

And this ignores that again, this only matters if you consider the story of Genesis literal.
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Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?
« Reply #179 on: July 06, 2017, 12:10:18 PM »
I don't think I believe I said that Islam ripped off Christianity? If I did, you probably misunderstood me. My posts have barely touched Islam, if at all. You say I'm moving goal posts but I'm arguing literally the same thing: that Christianity did not "rip off" these religions.

In any case, you still have not provided historical evidence that Christianity ripped off Judaism. I have provided evidence that it didn't.

Your bringing up Islam is a straw man to divert from the subject at hand.

You're the one who brought up Islam as the only religion that you'd say plagiarized, when I pointed out christianity does the same, your response was that some jews became christian, that isn't evidence. Islam isn't a straw man when you were the one who brought it up. You basically said Christianity was new form of Judaism instead of a ripoff, I said by your logic that makes Islam a new form of Christianity. Do you really think most people don't know that Abrahamic religions are linked together? Only time anybody calls them evolutions of each other is when they believe in a later one, which conveniently stops at the religion they believe in, that's what you're doing.

Himu, you should learn to respond to the content of my posts more instead of falling back into trying to paint my argument as a different one once you moved the goal post. It's a tactic you employ too much, and I'm dumb enough to keep replying to you when you do so.

I asked you specifically, where did I say that Islam plagiarized?

Anyways, it isn't poor logic at all. Early Christians literally were Jews. Islam is far removed from Judaism and Christianity in the sense that it doesn't have the relationship with Christianity (or Judaism for that matter) that Christianity has with Judaism. I don't think Islam plagiarized, but I don't think it has the same relationship the other Abrahamic faiths do. I haven't moved a single goal post. I'm trying to clarify your position and understand where I said Islam plagiarized? I'm confused.
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