What are some things you think that go against societal expectations?

[Himu]

A lot of that is historical. There's evidence that the Catholic Church did homosexual unions in the Middle Ages.

[Cerveza mas fina]

I'm not even an atheist but an agnostic

[seagrams hotsauce]

Himu, how do you square being trans against the shit Francis has said about gender identity? As someone who's views have been shaped by Catholicism more than any other region I have to say I'm really confused as to why you'd elect the Church as your spiritual center

[Himu]

Francis has personally officiated the marriages of multiple gay and trans people in the church. Francis said he doesn't judge just like Jesus. When a trans man talked to Francis asking, in tears, if he had a place in the church, Francis hugged him and said yes. When it counted, Francis has done amazing things for our community. Regarding gender identity, I don't know. Francis is an old man. I don't expect him to fully get it, and yet he has still treated trans people with compassion.

How do I reconcile being trans and becoming Catholic? A lot of inner strength and faith. For me, Christianity-wise, there's only three real options for me: Catholicism, Orthodox, or Anglican/Lutheran. I've tried em all except Orthodox. Orthodox tends to be too heavily racial due to the church having people's ties to their country identity, so it lacks the "you're worshipping with the help" element of Catholicism. My church has black priests. It has black parishioners. It has white, black, Latino, Asian people there. All worshipping God. One time, there was an Irishman in a kilt and no one batted an eye. So I value that. When I went to Episcopal churches it was mostly just white people, especially old white peoole (incidcating that the church is dying).

There are many within the church that support LGBT people. Most Catholics support marriage equality. Why not just go to an Episcopal church? Because I don't feel anything there. It's okay, but Catholic Churches is where I feel home. Why become Catholic? Because spiritually, I truly feel it's the best church for me and I'm willing to put trust and faith into the church. No one at my church has treated me badly when I told them I was trans. I embraced and told I was loved.

As said, I only have three options. Why? Because I reject the protestanism of my youth with its shallow theology. I reject the mega churches like Lakewood. I reject the churches my aunts go to which are baptist and never take communion. I reject the "church as self help" that is prominent. I hate the figure of their Buddy Christ. I hate the prosperity gospel bullshit. Why Catholic? Because along with the Orthodox Church it's the church that has direct lineage to Jesus and the original apostles. For me, that is legitimacy. For me, it is either that or no Christianity.

Why not go to a more affirming church? Because I'm not going to church to become affirmed. I'm going to praise God and grow spiritually. Furthermore, by existing within the Catholic Church, I can help pave a way for making it easier for LGBT people down the line. That is my sacrifice. A lot of affirming churches aren't necessarily better.

Finally, I fell in love with the church as well as God. I talked about its intellectual history before. I value that. I value the likes of Raphael and Leonardo. I value people like St Therese. I love the saints. I love that every time I go to a Catholic Church I see my savior suffering as he should be to remind me of the reason I'm really here. I love how serious they take the Eucharist. I love the mass. The first mass I went to I cried twice. I could go to a different church. Sure. But it isn't the same for me. It is Catholicism or it is nothing.

http://time.com/3744270/catholic-church-pope-francis-transgender-community/

Pretty good write up here.

[Himu]

Another good write up.

http://aqueercalling.com/2014/01/29/what-if-you-went-to-an-open-and-affirming-church/

Although I disagree with the whole "lgbt people should be celibate for life" thing because it's a different kind of conversion therapy and frankly, impossible. It's besides the point, and hopefully you can read this blog post and try to understand the perspective.

[seagrams hotsauce]

Francis has personally officiated the marriages of multiple gay and trans people in the church.

citation needed

[Himu]

I don't have a source, but it's what I hear from some lgbt catholics. That if you go to Francis personally, you may have your marriage accepted by the church.

In any case, let's stop pretending that Francis is a complete shit lord to lgbt people.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/08/europe/vatican-pope-family/index.html

Yes, I know I'm not gay but to the church I am.

In any case, as an LGBT Christian it's damned if I do, damned if I don't. I have lost friends with lgbt people after becoming Christian. They refuse to believe that it's possible to be lgbt and christian and have decided to judge me. You know who have been accepting and said you can be lgbt and Catholic? Actual Catholics. LGBT people can be extremely hateful to Christians. While it's understandable, they also have the ability to treat their lgbt christian friends like crap by making assumptions about our person as you have in this thread. We get shit from Christians and we get shit from LGBT people. Might as well live.

[seagrams hotsauce]

Joe Biden made headlines when he officiated a gay wedding. The fucking world would explode of the Pope officiated a trans wedding dude. And I'm sorry, but I'm not giving Francis credit for being civil in maintaining the church's homophobia

[Himu]

Could you imagine if the Pope outright came in support of marriage equality? Do you think America is the only Catholic nation? There are some countries with a lot of Catholics where you can die for being LGBT. Saying something as simple as "treat LGBT people with love and respect" is amazing and could be really helpful for the lgbt people living in those countries. I'm not going to judge Francis for not being "perfect".

[seagrams hotsauce]

 I just consider the things Francis has done in opposition of gay rights a lot worse than 'not perfect' ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Phoenix Dark]

"Your opinion sounds bit impoverished." You don't get how condescending that sounds?

The dude said religion is only for fear and people afraid of death.

its true though, and people that feel lost

Why do you feel that way?

Why do you feel this way? What is religion for you, other than another temporarily thing that revolves in and out of your life as you attempt to fill a hole or find meaning? You've gone from Christian to Buddhist to Muslim to non-denominational Christian in the span of the last few years. Seems to me like it's not working for you. And I don't mean any disrespect but Jesus fucking Christ. You dabble in this shit for a few months, declare yourself an expert, get haughty or passive aggressive, and then drop it after realizing it's not fixing whatever you feel is wrong with you. Sorry if people can't really take you seriously now that you have a new thing to beat us over the head with. 

[Himu]

I was never a non-denominational Christian.

I'm 31. I stopped identifying as Christian when I was 19 or 20 but struggled with it at least since I was 15. At that point I didn't know what i was. I looked into Islam. That was ten years ago. I was an atheist from the age 22 to 31. I was never officially Buddhist and I've never been a non-denom Christian.

TIL over a decade = last few years

[Himu]

I would really like for you to clarify on what exactly I dabbled with for just a few months?

That is true for Islam. But I was an atheist for nearly a decade. If you had bothered to actually want to discuss things any time you made your stupid "atheists are know it alls" agnostic stuff in the gaf thread, you'd realize I was an atheist for years and years. I never dabbled with Buddhism either. I was into Buddhism since I believe 2014. I never really beat anyone over the head with Buddhism and for the most part kept it to myself. During that time I was still atheist. I was going to officially become Buddhist this year by starting on my rakusu. Something I also kept private. Can you clarify what exactly I dabble with for a few months?

Where did you get I was ever non denominational Christian?

Don't worry. I don't expect an answer. Snipe posts without clarification is your thing.

Anyways, talking to Christians, my journey isn't that unusual. Apparently dabbling with or even becoming Buddhism is a rite of passage.

Don't worry though. I won't bring up religion or philosophy again here because of the negative reaction. You can talk to me privately if you want to hash it out about regarding Kant vs Nietszche. But I'm not going to continue this further to allow you to outright lie about me. I'll be keeping it to myself from now on.

[Phoenix Dark]

I'm pretty sure most people here remember every religious phase you've had, and many likely feel the same way. It's not a diss. I just think it's corny that you jump around and feel comfortable declaring yourself an expert. I was indeed wrong about you being non-denom Christian now (because tbh I've only read a few sentences of the posts in this thread, after that first one about feminism). Ah, you're Catholic. Ok.

Does anyone really believe Pope Francis officiated a gay or trans wedding, and if he did does anyone believe it would be "private" and no one would hear about it...except trans and gay people who want to believe the Catholic church gives a fuck about them? You're once again attaching yourself to something and trying to find meaning based on that.

Francis definitely seems to do some good things in various areas, but I don't understand weighing the slight nods he's given to the gay community to equal anything that matters, agenda or policy wise, when the official policy is still "fuck you." This seems like a cynical trick to entice another group of sinners into the Catholic church. Not saying Francis himself is complicit, I'm referring to the segments of the church that target LGBT people. I can't fathom joining an organization that basically thinks I'm trash, a terrible sinner, or mentally ill, or whatever else these people still think in 2017. Even if I found an offshoot that was welcoming...nope. To quote Malcolm X, you're begging entry into a burning house.

[Himu]

I'm pretty sure most people here remember every religious phase you've had, and many likely feel the same way. It's not a diss. I just think it's corny that you jump around and feel comfortable declaring yourself an expert. I was indeed wrong about you being non-denom Christian now (because tbh I've only read a few sentences of the posts in this thread, after that first one about feminism). Ah, you're Catholic. Ok.

Does anyone really believe Pope Francis officiated a gay or trans wedding, and if he did does anyone believe it would be "private" and no one would hear about it...except trans and gay people who want to believe the Catholic church gives a fuck about them? You're once again attaching yourself to something and trying to find meaning based on that.

Francis definitely seems to do some good things in various areas, but I don't understand weighing the slight nods he's given to the gay community to equal anything that matters, agenda or policy wise, when the official policy is still "fuck you." This seems like a cynical trick to entice another group of sinners into the Catholic church. Not saying Francis himself is complicit, I'm referring to the segments of the church that target LGBT people. I can't fathom joining an organization that basically thinks I'm trash, a terrible sinner, or mentally ill, or whatever else these people still think in 2017. Even if I found an offshoot that was welcoming...nope. To quote Malcolm X, you're begging entry into a burning house.

Did I really declare myself an expert? I don't think I ever have. I'm still learning every day. It's likely my tone. My tone denotes that I speak like an expert. I don't know, it's the way I write. I have been toning it down and trying to make my writing seems less authoritative. I'm far more open-minded in person. It's just a symptom of how I was taught how to communicate English in writing.

Breh. You're from Detroit, Michigan, STILL live in Michigan despite what's going on in Flint, and you want to talk about joining an organization that thinks you're trash? For that matter, why be black at all and remain in America? Because you have hope things will improve and you're wiling to fight for it. You can say,"well I was born in Michigan and you chose the church" but I did not choose the church so much as it chose me. You can say things like "my family is there" and I feel the same way about the church I attend. I have been treated very well. America, by contrast, thinks that black people deserve to die, breh. How do you justify staying in America?

Is this really an organization that thinks I'm trash, PD?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/nyregion/catholic-church-gays-mass-newark-cathedral.html

Or this?

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2016/10/30/james-martin-sj-we-need-build-bridge-between-lgbt-community-and-catholic-church

Both of whom were appointed by, surprise, surprise, Pope Francis. Father Martin in particular was given an official Vatican appointment for communications. Oh, but clearly the church thinks I'm trash and clearly there's zero hope for the church. They're just a bunch of bigots aren't they?

[fistfulofmetal]

Comparing living in America as a black man to being a catholic as an LGBT person is a stretch.

Edit: From the angle of "Oh, why don't YOU leave?"

Deciding to leave the country to live elsewhere it a much bigger choice than leaving a church.

[Himu]

Comparing living in America as a black man to being a catholic as an LGBT person is a stretch.

Yes. Tell that to the black trans woman.

My overall point is that organizations and institutions aren't perfect. They are slow and plodding. I'm not stupid and I am not trash. I have self worth and I am willing to fight for it and telling me just to go to another church is definitely "fuck you" material. I don't begrudge any lgbt for leaving the church and I don't blame them, but I am not going to do it.

And yes, it is an apt comparison. It isn't a stretch at all. In any case, I argued from the point of PD living in Michigan. It might be harder to leave your country, but it's very easy to leave your state. And yet PD still lives in that racist hell hole. Glass houses.

[Phoenix Dark]

That's an illogical comparison though. The state I reside in is not an organization or an institution. You're willingly involved with an organization/belief system that doesn't think you're a woman, doesn't think you should be able to marry, probably thinks you have a mental illness, and uses religious texts that condemn homosexuality in the Old and New Testament. If you want to make a race comparison, compare it to a black person supporting Trump and being a tea party member.

Ultimately religion is a personal decision. We were both brought up around intensely religious (black) family members, I understand the mentality. We've simply taken different paths. You turned away from the faux religious bullshit of much of Organized Christianity in search for a religious experience that felt genuine/real. I turned away from the faux religious bullshit of Organized Christianity and now have a general distaste for all religion. I'm not going to say I'm right in general and you're wrong in general...if religion helps someone, fine. My problem is in the way you've discussed it in this thread, and also the damage control you're doing for an organization that officially and literally denies your very existence.

[Phoenix Dark]

And I say that with all due respect. We've known each other and been friends for over a decade, I'm not shitting on you. Although TBH I'm upset that I sent you some bbc porn a few weeks ago and you told me you don't fuck with porn anymore. Another reason why religion is trash

[Himu]

You're being far too literal. I'm not saying a country is the exact same a church. But I'm saying that despite the fact that America seems to have apathy towards killing black people, you love your country. Even though your state is poisoning black people right now, you still love your state. You know there's problems. You know it's not perfect. But you love it anyways and you're willing to do what you can do pave the way for a better future.

That's how I feel about Catholicism. It wasn't an easy decision. I fought through pain and tears. One priest at this church I visited said that I was living in sin if I got married and took communion after I told him I was trans. I cried really hard that day. I was really hurt, but I pressed on. He was just one priest and everyone else has treated me well. I looked into other churches. There was a point when I gave up on the Catholic Church and went to an Episcopal church. It just never clicked. Not like the Catholic Church. Why should I give it up? Because of one person? I know it's not perfect, and I know it'll be hard, but - again, why should I give it up? Much like being black and loving the country that enslaved my ancestors and think that I am sub human, I am willing to forgive that because it's the only home I know and it's the county that I love. I feel that same exact way about the church I attend.

And if you don't understand it, and think that religion is just merely a personal choice, then fine. You don't get it.

You turned away from the faux religious bullshit of much of Organized Christianity in search for a religious experience that felt genuine/real.

YES. I've been searching for something genuine for so long. Why should I let it go?!

And I say that with all due respect. We've known each other and been friends for over a decade, I'm not shitting on you. Although TBH I'm upset that I sent you some bbc porn a few weeks ago and you told me you don't fuck with porn anymore. Another reason why religion is trash

I didn't give a religious reason for that though. I just said,"please don't send me porn" because I'm actually struggling with it.

[Phoenix Dark]

Where did I say I loved my country? I had Taco Bell on the 4th Of July. I tolerate my country. There are things I like about it, there are a lot of things I dislike about it. In terms of Michigan, I like where I live. I live in one of the most diverse and liberal areas of the state. But you're not gonna hear me defend my state on various things, from the Flint reaction to the governor to anything else. I don't search for personal meaning through...where I happened to be born, and now live/work.

You don't have any choice in where you're born, nor is it particularly logical for most people to move to another country solely out of protest. But you have 100% choice in what organizations you belong to, what institutions you defend, what beliefs you hold. As an adult. To me, there's a big gap between "it's a work in progress" and "these people deny my very existence." What progress can they truly make long term when the foundation is anti-you.

[TVC15]

And I say that with all due respect. We've known each other and been friends for over a decade, I'm not shitting on you. Although TBH I'm upset that I sent you some bbc porn a few weeks ago and you told me you don't fuck with porn anymore. Another reason why religion is trash

WTF why am I not on the PD porn list? I love you PD. We need to talk more.

[Himu]

Well, I can only speak for myself but I used to feel similarly, but I've grown slowly in my appreciation and love for America. I keep getting drawn back to the Catholic Church. I suffered from heavy cognitivie dissonance. I went to Epsicopal churches and tried earnestly to like them as much. I tried earnestly to feel the genuine love. I tried to go in open-minded. It just didn't work. I kept longing for my Catholic Church. I would beg God to please let me like the Episcopal church as much. To let me forget the Catholic Church. In the end, I decided to embrace it. I'm not there for the Pope. I'm not there for the priests. I'm there for God and I think the Catholic Church has the best means of worshipping God. It's what I think matters most. The church of my childhood currently has a gay pastor. I could go there and feel welcome, but would my spirit grow? My search is for more than affirmation, it's to find soemthing that helps my spirit feel complete. It works for me.

I don't expect you to understand.

[Himu]

PD, I hope you're not mad at my denial of bbc. You know how much I want to click. 😭
 

[I'm a Puppy!]

Queen, I think that gets to what I was trying to say in our pm stuff. You say you're not there for the Pope or the priests. And I started there and then realized the things I was there for didn't require a middleman.

[Himu]

But the middleman creates structure. What structure do you have?

[Cerveza mas fina]

Whats this obsession with structure?

You've written a lot about it before already. You don't need someone elses structure to be a good person, someone elses walkthrough life.

[Mupepe]

And I say that with all due respect. We've known each other and been friends for over a decade, I'm not shitting on you. Although TBH I'm upset that I sent you some bbc porn a few weeks ago and you told me you don't fuck with porn anymore. Another reason why religion is trash

WTF why am I not on the PD porn list? I love you PD. We need to talk more.

+1

[I'm a Puppy!]

But the middleman creates structure. What structure do you have?

But, why do I need structure? Take it from someone who grew up in a religion that had a ton of structure and rituals. When you have a religion that has a lot of those the religion inevitably BECOMES about the structure and rituals. I don't need that 

[benjipwns]

Sorry Queen, missed your reply to me when I looked at the thread earlier:

I think there's a problem with applying motives to natural unthinking forces and then using as it an example to prove something regarding the actions of something capable of determining and deciding regarding both motive and morality.

That's fair. But it's also endemic to the religion. My favorite example is Jesus' crucifixion and perhaps the final 24 hours of his life. The fact that he prayed alone in the forest while the people closest to him couldn't stay awake and keep him company. Judas' betrayal. Peter's denial. The actions of the Romans. The behavior of the Pharisees. The murder of Jesus. Corruption. Jealousy. Murder. Power. Hate. All of human depravity is on display in the Gospel. From humanities worst (above examples) to its best (Roman soldier giving Jesus something to drink as he's on the cross, the traveling man who helps lift the cross for Jesus, John protecting Mary during the depravity). All I'm saying is that where there's evil, there's a capacity for good. I'm not sure what part of my post you specifically disagree with. I wish you could quote it.

This was what struck me as wrongheaded, especially the bolded part:

If we can't choose, we are just dolls and no different from animals. And where there's badness, there's often goodness. For example, we have natural disasters that harm people. It sucks that a tornado landed, but without thermodynamics the tornado wouldn't exist. Without thermodynamics we wouldn't have jet engines for example. But we also wouldn't have things that kill people like tornadoes. But I think all of us agree that tornadoes are worth keeping around if we get things like jet propulsion out of it. God likely sees it similarly. Because there is evil, there must also be an infinite good. And this infinite good is God. Essentially, evil allows human not only a choice, but also an opportunity to grow.

Because while I do have some agreement with the thrust of your point regarding free will and the value of choosing not-bad I think using an example of something that not only has no moral component or free will but entirely lacks agency does a disservice to your argument.

To use another example that you mentioned earlier, the harnessing of nuclear fission. It's been used to provide a relatively clean and abundant energy source, at the same it's been used to create life-ending weaponry. Yet even in the latter case there is endless debate as to not only the creation of those weapons, but the two times they've been used as both being the "good" option. The threat of MAD and Hiroshima/Nagasaki are regularly debated as possibly helping to avoid greater evils.

In any case, it's still man who provides the agency to enact his free will and moral framework through natural forces. They don't come with one built in.

[Himu]

Whats this obsession with structure?

You've written a lot about it before already. You don't need someone elses structure to be a good person, someone elses walkthrough life.

It isn't an obsession. I'm just articulating my reality.

The goal isn't to be good. The goal is become holy. It was shown and argued earlier than humans fail to honor our inherent goodness. So most people aren't good. People try. Today I committed a sin. I lashed out on Triumph's Facebook and said liberals are scum. I was emotional after reading the dehumanizing comments on the post and it was how I truly felt. But instead self censoring myself, I let it fly. Would a holy person do this? And, again, when I said this I don't mean perfect. Also, I under no inclinations believe that one must be religious to be good.

Ronito majored in music. So for the sake of dialogue, I consider him a fellow artist. Now, traditionally in the arts, there exists two camps: mentorship and self teaching. Self teaching can work. But it requires being without a teacher. A teacher provides that structure. They help soften your edges, they give generational advice. They share stories of their successes and failures and how you too can avoid them. In the spiritual life I learned very, very early that the spirit is to be cultivated like artistic skill. Both require on going effort, self awareness, and practice. One of the many (many) things Buddhism taught me was to cherish this. Without a teacher you can cultivate bad habits (just like in art). Meditation without a teacher is, I'm not going to say dangerous, but depriving. Without a teacher you convince yourself that through meditation you are "seeing an alternate reality/seeing outside of myself" or some other new age-y bullshit. But a teacher helps rein this in but saying,"no, you're just staring a singular object for too long without blinking. Please blink." A teacher helps you with what to do next. A teacher gives you assignments. How do you hope to become disciplined without the middleman? If that's the case, why did Ronito go to university to learn music? He could have just sat at home, learning by himself. While it's possible for him to become a great musician that way, it'd be far easier just to go to school. For school provides the structure to succeed learning new skills.

So, given the inportance of spiritual matters, one must admit that doing it alone can end in failure. Spirit life isn't something someone does alone. Ronito has of yet to describe what his spiritual practice even includes. Does he fast? Does he renunciate things? Does he still go through penance? Does he meditate? I don't know. There's a misconception in that I think spiritual matters is just experiencing something. I also consider it a discipline. Structure provides that discipline.

Now, again, I'm not sure of Ronito's history. Given his decades in Mormonism perhaps he has the background and structure to practice spiritual practices alone. I don't. I'm just getting starting. Like the Time article I posted last page said:

All of us can understand institutional disenchantment. Institutions can be slow, plodding, dictatorial; they can both enable and shield wrongdoers. They frustrate our desires by asking us to submit to the will of others.

But institutions are also the only mechanism human beings know to perpetuate ideologies and actions. If books were enough, why have universities? If guns enough, why have a military? If self-governance enough, let’s get rid of Washington. The point is that if you want to do something lasting in this world, you will recall the wise words of French Catholic writer Charles Péguy: “Everything begins in mysticism and ends in politics.” Got a vision? Get a blueprint.

Spirituality is an emotion. Religion is an obligation. Spirituality soothes. Religion mobilizes. Spirituality is satisfied with itself. Religion is dissatisfied with the world. Religions create aid organizations; as Nicholas Kristof pointed out in a column in the New York Times two years ago: the largest U.S.-based international relief and development organization is not Save the Children or Care, it’s World Vision, a Seattle-based Christian group.

Aid organizations involve institutions as well, and bureaucracies, and — yes — committee meetings. There is something profoundly, well, spiritual about a committee meeting. It involves individuals trying together to sort out priorities, to listen and learn from one another, to make a difference. I have found too often that when people say, “I stay away from the synagogue — too much politics,” what they mean is that they did not get their way. Institutions enable but they also frustrate, as do families and every other organized sector of human life. If you want frictionless, do it alone.

To be spiritual but not religious confines your devotional life to feeling good. If we have learned one thing about human nature, however, it is that people’s internal sense of goodness does not always match their behavior. To know whether your actions are good, a window is a more effective tool than a mirror. Ask others. Be part of a community. In short, join. Being religious does not mean you have to agree with all the positions and practices of your own group; I don’t even hold with everything done in my own synagogue, and I’m the Rabbi. But it does mean testing yourself in the arena of others.

No one expects those without faith to obligate themselves to a religious community. But for one who has an intuition of something greater than ourselves to hold that this is a purely personal truth, that it demands no communal searching and struggle, no organization to realize its potential in this world, straddles the line between narcissistic and solipsistic. If the spirit moves you to goodness, that is wonderful. For too many, though, spirituality is a VIP card allowing them to breeze past all those wretched souls waiting in line or doing the work. Join in; together is harder, but together is better.

I have not seen any argument for how spiritual but not religious isn't a cop out. There's potential for something real, but often than not its just a selfish pursuit of sensual experiences and I've experienced enough of secular Buddhism to realize how much of a crock it truly is.

[I'm a Puppy!]

Whats this obsession with structure?

You've written a lot about it before already. You don't need someone elses structure to be a good person, someone elses walkthrough life.

It isn't an obsession. I'm just articulating my reality.

The goal isn't to be good. The goal is become holy. It was shown and argued earlier than humans fail to honor our inherent goodness. So most people aren't good. People try. Today I committed a sin. I lashed out on Triumph's Facebook and said liberals are scum. I was emotional after reading the dehumanizing comments on the post and it was how I truly felt. But instead self censoring myself, I let it fly. Would a holy person do this? And, again, when I said this I don't mean perfect. Also, I under no inclinations believe that one must be religious to be good.

Ronito majored in music. So for the sake of dialogue, I consider him a fellow artist. Now, traditionally in the arts, there exists two camps: mentorship and self teaching. Self teaching can work. But it requires being without a teacher. A teacher provides that structure. They help soften your edges, they give generational advice. They share stories of their successes and failures and how you too can avoid them. In the spiritual life I learned very, very early that the spirit is to be cultivated like artistic skill. Both require on going effort, self awareness, and practice. One of the many (many) things Buddhism taught me was to cherish this. Without a teacher you can cultivate bad habits (just like in art). Meditation without a teacher is, I'm not going to say dangerous, but depriving. Without a teacher you convince yourself that through meditation you are "seeing an alternate reality/seeing outside of myself" or some other new age-y bullshit. But a teacher helps rein this in but saying,"no, you're just staring a singular object for too long without blinking. Please blink." A teacher helps you with what to do next. A teacher gives you assignments. How do you hope to become disciplined without the middleman? If that's the case, why did Ronito go to university to learn music? He could have just sat at home, learning by himself. While it's possible for him to become a great musician that way, it'd be far easier just to go to school. For school provides the structure to succeed learning new skills.

So, given the inportance of spiritual matters, one must admit that doing it alone can end in failure. Spirit life isn't something someone does alone. Ronito has of yet to describe what his spiritual practice even includes. Does he fast? Does he renunciate things? Does he still go through penance? Does he meditate? I don't know. There's a misconception in that I think spiritual matters is just experiencing something. I also consider it a discipline. Structure provides that discipline.

Now, again, I'm not sure of Ronito's history. Given his decades in Mormonism perhaps he has the background and structure to practice spiritual practices alone. I don't. I'm just getting starting. Like the Time article I posted last page said:

All of us can understand institutional disenchantment. Institutions can be slow, plodding, dictatorial; they can both enable and shield wrongdoers. They frustrate our desires by asking us to submit to the will of others.

But institutions are also the only mechanism human beings know to perpetuate ideologies and actions. If books were enough, why have universities? If guns enough, why have a military? If self-governance enough, let’s get rid of Washington. The point is that if you want to do something lasting in this world, you will recall the wise words of French Catholic writer Charles Péguy: “Everything begins in mysticism and ends in politics.” Got a vision? Get a blueprint.

Spirituality is an emotion. Religion is an obligation. Spirituality soothes. Religion mobilizes. Spirituality is satisfied with itself. Religion is dissatisfied with the world. Religions create aid organizations; as Nicholas Kristof pointed out in a column in the New York Times two years ago: the largest U.S.-based international relief and development organization is not Save the Children or Care, it’s World Vision, a Seattle-based Christian group.

Aid organizations involve institutions as well, and bureaucracies, and — yes — committee meetings. There is something profoundly, well, spiritual about a committee meeting. It involves individuals trying together to sort out priorities, to listen and learn from one another, to make a difference. I have found too often that when people say, “I stay away from the synagogue — too much politics,” what they mean is that they did not get their way. Institutions enable but they also frustrate, as do families and every other organized sector of human life. If you want frictionless, do it alone.

To be spiritual but not religious confines your devotional life to feeling good. If we have learned one thing about human nature, however, it is that people’s internal sense of goodness does not always match their behavior. To know whether your actions are good, a window is a more effective tool than a mirror. Ask others. Be part of a community. In short, join. Being religious does not mean you have to agree with all the positions and practices of your own group; I don’t even hold with everything done in my own synagogue, and I’m the Rabbi. But it does mean testing yourself in the arena of others.

No one expects those without faith to obligate themselves to a religious community. But for one who has an intuition of something greater than ourselves to hold that this is a purely personal truth, that it demands no communal searching and struggle, no organization to realize its potential in this world, straddles the line between narcissistic and solipsistic. If the spirit moves you to goodness, that is wonderful. For too many, though, spirituality is a VIP card allowing them to breeze past all those wretched souls waiting in line or doing the work. Join in; together is harder, but together is better.

I have not seen any argument for how spiritual but not religious isn't a cop out. There's potential for something real, but often than not its just a selfish pursuit of sensual experiences and I've experienced enough of secular Buddhism to realize how much of a crock it truly is.

To go along with your analogy however, I had a teacher in college to teach me how to learn and how to teach. We had a very intense relationship where I learned so much. I learned how to make myself better, how to practice, how to find deficiencies and fix them, how to prepare for a performance and how to perform. Our teacher/student relationship was really intense in the beginning with him guiding my every action, but as I learned more and grew more, it went from intense tutelage to check ins that became less and less frequent. It went from "This is how you do it." to "You should do x technique" or "You know better than to make that mistake."

Now that I'm done with that part of my life do I require another guitar teacher? In fact, if I went to one most of would just laugh. A master class every once in a while? Sure. But if I were still looking for another regular teacher after all I learned I'd be viewed as deficient because after all that I had learned, I hadn't learned how to cultivate myself. And they'd be right to consider me deficient and to consider my teacher deficient.

[Himu]

Well, like I said. You are already a master. You can do it by yourself. I can't. I'm not there yet. I have too many flaws. I'm not at that point.

[I'm a Puppy!]

Well, like I said. You are already a master. You can do it by yourself. I can't. I'm not there yet. I have too many flaws. I'm not at that point.

Ah, but the question is, "Are you really not?"

[Himu]

Well, like I said. You are already a master. You can do it by yourself. I can't. I'm not there yet. I have too many flaws. I'm not at that point.

Ah, but the question is, "Are you really not?"

Ronito, I grew up in a church environment where the gospel was barely preached. Where Jesus was barely taught. I didn't understand how Jesus died for our sins, the most basic Christian teaching, even as a teenager. Things like the trinity weren't explained. They were more interested in creating social clubs than worship; power seeking than embracing the spirit. I was taught shallow theology and shallow religion. When I wanted answers and tried to read the Bible for myself as a teenager, I struggled really hard because there was no one to guide me. Now I'm older and (somewhat) wiser and have community. I can chat fellow former atheist now Christians about things. I can read Ecclisiastes in all of its beautiful wonder and get something out of it, but I still need a guide. I'm not sure why you are so willing to deny that religion provides good things.

I read an article recently where a priest said,"young people don't want feel good religion." And it's true for me, at least. I perceive spiritual but not religious as the ultimate in "feel good". I don't think it has anything to offer me. As a young person who not only goes to church on Sunday's, but also participate in adoration duty, and goes to church at least 2-4 times a week, I take it very seriously. Young adults who are still at church in 2017 for the most part, all do. This past week I went to church either for mass, prayer, adoration, or a meeting with my priest this past week. I went to a church almost every day last week. My priest is currently searching for me to have a spiritual counselor. I take it seriously. How can I take spiritual matters seriously without a backbone or structure?

Additional reading: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/jesus-doesnt-tweet/2015/04/30/fb07ef1a-ed01-11e4-8666-a1d756d0218e_story.html

This is also why I came down to only three options: Catholic, orthodox, or Episcopalian/Lutheran. Forget everything else.

[Himu]

Sorry 21337, but most of the most close minded people I know aren't religious, as this thread and this study (Ha!) shows.

http://www.psypost.org/2017/06/study-finds-nonreligious-can-close-minded-religious-49182

Real talk, most non-believers I know are hateful misanthropists. I'm not saying I personally believe all are, from what I've observed...the results are interesting.

I am in the process of trying to find a therapist. Thank you for your concern.

[benjipwns]

Just a random thought because this is sorta a religion thread, but someone I know joined and has become huge into the local Unitarian Universalist Church after meeting some dude in it.

I uh...well, it's certainly something that exists.

[Himu]

Nah, anecdotally people who are genuinely happy in life mostly don't involve religion as any central part of their life. There's maybe two people I can name that believe in that numerology/astrology-lite shit, but they aren't serious about it in any manor. Their lives revolve around art they produce and genuinely enjoy making.

 What part of religion do you think completes you or what do you think it offers to you?

Being happy isn't enough. What happens when their spouse dies? What happens when they get cancer? What happens when they lose their job and have nothing to turn to. They'll have friends but friends drift away the weeks following a tragedy expecting you to be "over" it. But God is something that never leaves. They are happy - temporarily.

What does religion offer me? Happiness. After I do deep prayer and meditation I can experience complete bliss and joy. But I'm fully aware that those days won't last. Community. Support. Tradition. Beauty. Mystery.

[Himu]

I hope you realize that religion is a tool. It can be good or bad. Good people practice religion; bad people practice religion. Religion isn't the boogeyman our generation thinks it is. You said people you can be happy without religion. Well so what? I know plenty of happy people who are religious. I have never said once in this entire discussion that one must be religious to be happy. I rejected it as an atheist and I reject it now. But frankly, the anti-theism in this thread is shocking and at this point pitiful. "You don't need religion." Yeah, well, that's fine. I like religion and I and others are not lesser for doing so.

[Himu]

Your description of the Catholic Church is...wanting. Most Christian churches believe in the trinity. And their philosophy certainly doesn't try to appease to lowest common denominator.

I agree that Christians use the bible for their own beliefs. Which is exactly why I've rejected sola scriptura and find the Catholic Church as legitimate, especially after researching the Didache, the early church fathers;etc.

Like I said earlier. It's interesting how the most anti-religion people come from the most fundamentalist and straight out wacky religions, ever. In Ronito's case, Mormonism. In your case, Jehovah Witnesses. This is what I mean when I said some atheists are as fundamentalist as the people they critique. You have taken the fundamentalism of your religion, and now apply to all religion.

[Himu]

I'm sorry none of you see the value of religion. I wish you would or even could. I understand a lot of you have had awful experiences. But please try to learn to at least treat religion with absolute disdain.

Final post and a good way to end it:

https://thenib.com/i-m-not-a-christian-but-i-don-t-hate-them

[benjipwns]

I'm sorry none of you see the value of religion.

I'm not sure this is entirely fair. I think it's mainly pushback against the notion that you must need religion in order to do [whatever] or feel [whatever] and so on. For example, in that comic he laments that he was able to help people as a Christian but no longer knows how to. But that makes no sense, as he himself concedes you can operate through religious organizations without being part of that religion so there's nothing stopping him from continuing. There's nothing stopping him from finding non-religious avenues to do the same things. The supposed necessity of religion isn't one, it's an excuse.

I was raised effectively irreligious. My mother believes in God and the Bible and such but I couldn't tell you what denomination or anything but I did have a like young adult version (came in pack along with other classics) to read as a kid that I read, my father is actually a mystery to me as it's never come up though even his 92 year old mother is not particularly religious. I've never been to a Church service that I remember. Other than weddings or using their basketball courts I never set foot in them, not on purpose though. The only religious people I talk to in real life about religion are the Jehovah's Witnesses and that's because I found that it gets you blacklisted so they stop coming.

Sure, I bet if you go back and somehow can pull up old long dead forums through the Wayback Machine I had some posts like in the 8th grade where I bashed Christians and God and crap if only because there's a stage of me fisking people. But at some point it swung around to where my irreligious status combined with my libertarian nature to lead another forum to believe I was a fundamentalist Christian because I had no issue with them protesting some movie as blasphemous or homeschooling their children with creationist textbooks. Also I argued with a bunch of neckbeard atheist types that the Bible is probably not intended to be literal but allegorical so people were talking past one another.

Now me, I personally don't care about people telling me how to live my life since I expect it and know I can always ask the unanswerable question of "but, why?" But Queen, come on, you have to see that it can be just as insulting to those who don't follow your religion to denigrate their beliefs and make all these assumptions and accusations as you feel they are doing to you. Saying "I wish you could see the value of religion" is a shot across the bow as much as "I wish you could see how useless religion is" would be from your perspective.

As another personal note, I always find the kind of religious/non-religious line drawing to be unhelpful as I consider it all philosophical and ideological as all belief systems and thus fair game. What differentiates some of what you're saying from The Golden Rule or the NAP,  I mean other than all the supernatural stuff, I don't know, does it matter?

But then I'm rambling and I haven't really read this discussion much more than here and there. It just seems a bit insulting to assume that without religion, as you define it, people are missing something in their lives.

[Himu]

I just told you I've researched/am researching the church fathers and early Christianity such as the Didache. That is pretty hard research.

I've got almost a year until confirmation.

Speaking of research, a lot of your stuff on the Catholic Church is flat out wrong.

I don't have the time for the rest but I'll tackle this in short order:

how the Catholic church is largely founded on "tradition" that took place way after the Bible supposedly takes place in

This is...uh...really, really bad history.

1. The early church established tradition before the bible was even canonized. In fact, scripture was read aloud as oral tradition.

2. Tradition and scripture are tied together. Scripture is not end be all in the Catholic Church. There's also tradition. The tradition informs upon and expands upon the scripture.

3. The first scriptures were written mid to late 1st century. But tradition comes about from the same time.

4. The bible was not canonized until 325 during the council of Nicea. This denotes nearly 300 years of tradition before the Bible was even canonized.

tradition that takes place way after the bible? If you bothered to read the hints I gave you (Google the Didache) you would see that these traditions have existed from the very beginning. Even before the bible was canonized.

This also ties into the whole thing Protestants talk about Catholics and how they don't "follow the bible." Who do you built the Bible? In its current order? And I'm not talking about the Bible Martin Luther butchered by removing books.

I'll give you a hint.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/scripture-and-tradition

It's really scary (but also amusing) how you stress research but lack the most basic of facts.

I am prepared that you will reject a Catholic source, so I'm just going to make this cut even deeper.

And if that's not enough, it is surprisingly easy to learn about this stuff in this day and age. You can say, start with any Apostle and then look up his students. Let's start with St John. His apostles include Polycarp of Smyrma and Ignatius of Antiotch. Searching John's students renders this doosey. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_I Which shows just little the church actually has changed in 2,000 years. That's what I mean by legitimacy. This is also why I said Catholicism is the only answer.

When you tell me to research did you mean actually research or did you mean read bad biased atheist "well, actually" blog posts minus context?

[I'm a Puppy!]

Somewhere a greek orthodox borian is laughing and laughing.

[Himu]

Technically, there's only Orthodox and Catholicism. But you saw what I said about Orthodox right?

Anyways, I'll just link it directly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache

This legitimacy also ties into why I can't get into the Episcopal Church even if they're affirming. So what if they're affirming if they're not legitimate?

[I'm a Puppy!]

Queen, you seem to have fallen into the trap of falling into a stream and thinking it's the ocean. You talk about your love of the love and mystery of religion. What if the mystery goes deeper than you have imagined?

[Himu]

I'm sorry none of you see the value of religion.

I'm not sure this is entirely fair. I think it's mainly pushback against the notion that you must need religion in order to do [whatever] or feel [whatever] and so on. For example, in that comic he laments that he was able to help people as a Christian but no longer knows how to. But that makes no sense, as he himself concedes you can operate through religious organizations without being part of that religion so there's nothing stopping him from continuing. There's nothing stopping him from finding non-religious avenues to do the same things. The supposed necessity of religion isn't one, it's an excuse.

I was raised effectively irreligious. My mother believes in God and the Bible and such but I couldn't tell you what denomination or anything but I did have a like young adult version (came in pack along with other classics) to read as a kid that I read, my father is actually a mystery to me as it's never come up though even his 92 year old mother is not particularly religious. I've never been to a Church service that I remember. Other than weddings or using their basketball courts I never set foot in them, not on purpose though. The only religious people I talk to in real life about religion are the Jehovah's Witnesses and that's because I found that it gets you blacklisted so they stop coming.

Sure, I bet if you go back and somehow can pull up old long dead forums through the Wayback Machine I had some posts like in the 8th grade where I bashed Christians and God and crap if only because there's a stage of me fisking people. But at some point it swung around to where my irreligious status combined with my libertarian nature to lead another forum to believe I was a fundamentalist Christian because I had no issue with them protesting some movie as blasphemous or homeschooling their children with creationist textbooks. Also I argued with a bunch of neckbeard atheist types that the Bible is probably not intended to be literal but allegorical so people were talking past one another.

Now me, I personally don't care about people telling me how to live my life since I expect it and know I can always ask the unanswerable question of "but, why?" But Queen, come on, you have to see that it can be just as insulting to those who don't follow your religion to denigrate their beliefs and make all these assumptions and accusations as you feel they are doing to you. Saying "I wish you could see the value of religion" is a shot across the bow as much as "I wish you could see how useless religion is" would be from your perspective.

As another personal note, I always find the kind of religious/non-religious line drawing to be unhelpful as I consider it all philosophical and ideological as all belief systems and thus fair game. What differentiates some of what you're saying from The Golden Rule or the NAP,  I mean other than all the supernatural stuff, I don't know, does it matter?

But then I'm rambling and I haven't really read this discussion much more than here and there. It just seems a bit insulting to assume that without religion, as you define it, people are missing something in their lives.

I didn't mean that statement like that. I have no problem with atheists (although I pray for them). I do have a problem with anti-theism. There's a difference between the two groups. I respect being not religious but at the very least understanding religion. I don't agree with it, but I respect it. I used to be in that camp. My problem stems from extremes. I'm not trying to convert anyone. But it feels like every non-religious person here is trying to convince me that I'm a moron for being religious even though it took me vast amount of literature for me to be able to believe in earnest again.

Be non-religious, that's fine. But when you try to convince people that they're better off without religion that's not cool. By the same token, be religious - that's fine. But don't say you need religion to live a good life. Both are extremes. I have no inherent problem with atheists but the "religion poisons all things" Hitchensian edge lord stuff is what I don't like. And to be fair, I don't know everyone's background. I don't blame Ronito, Wrath, or 21337, or even PD for their views. They grew up in extremely religious communities. I don't blame them one bit and I truly empathize, but that doesn't mean I gotta like it.

[Himu]

Breh you said glaringly false statements that go against actual history.

You told me to research, as if I haven't already, when you were branding about falsehood.

[Himu]

Queen, you seem to have fallen into the trap of falling into a stream and thinking it's the ocean. You talk about your love of the love and mystery of religion. What if the mystery goes deeper than you have imagined?

Like I said. My church growing up was a shallow social clique that cared more about grand standing and looking Christian than seeking actual spiritual truth. So, in order for me to find a new church I have to find something legitimate. Something real. The churches I visited growing up were selfish ("God loves it when you tithe!"), vapid ("once saved, always saved!"), where people put power struggles from board meeting politics during church, who lacked cohesive theology, and yet didn't know where the Bible came from. Who rejected helping the poor and even snubbed their noses at them. Who bought sports team stadiums as places of worship. From my church that stressed expansion rather than Jesus to the vapid churches of my aunts, to filth like Lakewood. I found Christianity to be illegitimate. If I'm going to believe in God, if I'm going to go to church I want it to be something real. I reject the Protestantism of my youth and the only way for me to not go back to being an atheist is bombard my brain with knowledge. Mystery is fine. Mystery is fantastic. I love it. I'm not trying to solve the mystery. I'm keeping it a mystery. But what happens if I get tired of the mystery? I have to have back up. For that, I have knowledge. I have 2000 years of history on my side. I have support. I don't want to ever be an atheist ever again and I'm finding ways to keep it that way.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Sounds how you are just trying to convince yourself this is real

[Himu]

No, I'm not. Unless you think reading actual verified historical documents means trying to convince your soemthing is real. I believe in God. That isn't an issue.

It took a lot of effort to not write an inflammatory reply and call you a name. I'm really progressing.

And that's when I'm done. There's no point talking to anti-theists. I've learned my lesson. From now on, I will guage if the person is reasonable. As of now, I'm not seeing any difference ideologically arguing with a non-theist as I do a fundamentalist. It is literally arguing the same exact manner. Fundamentalist or rad trad says I have a disgusting "lifestyle" - because of course no LGBT people believe in monogamous relationships; anti-theists refuse to believe one can become religious through reason and research - after all, religious people are stupid. Same pool, same pod. Both are extremists.

It's now filed under mental check. Just like when some atheist asks the question,"why Christianity?" That? That's bait. Don't answer it. Divert.

[TVC15]

To get this topic back on track: PD, do you have any BBC videos with two dudes using a pighole fuckable buttplug? I can find vids of average non-BBC dudes using them, but I really want to see them put to the test. The circumference of the inner hole has me thinking they may not be BBC compatible.

[Cerveza mas fina]

I'm not really reasonable? Your OP says "we got all this science but no one is happy"

You created a thread which premise is that non believers are miserable and that science has done bad things

get off your high horse lady

[Yeti]

It took a lot of effort to not write an inflammatory reply and call you a name. I'm really progressing.

 

Reminds me when I was like six years old and my parents told me to stop bragging so much about acing my spelling tests, so my next spelling test I said "Aren't you proud of me for not bragging about the A on my spelling test?"

[Madrun Badrun]

Yeti PMs me gold stars when I spell big words correctly.  Think that post explains a lot. 

[Himu]

advice my friend gave me and interesting data I could have used yesterday.

There's no dealing with someone who can only think of religion as something only gullible people believe and that it's all propaganda. They are either a New Atheist, like Bill Maher or Christopher Hitchens, or someone who has just been hurt in the Church, though more likely the former. There isn't any rational argument that can be made against it. Like you could point out that about half of all LGBT identify as Christian, and that number has been increasing in recent years, and that the only denomination that's been growing in the percentage of LGBT is the one they see as most harmful and least welcoming: Catholicism.
You could tell them that but they aren't actually interested in hearing about that. Pick your battles; state the reality; move on if you see they aren't actually interested in learning or listening.

Correlated data:

2013 report showing that 42% of LGBT identify as Christian, with 14% being Catholic.
2015 report showing that 48% now identify as Christian, with 17% Catholic. Mainline churches, like UMC and TEC went from 12% to 11%, and black protestant went from 9% to 5%.
Also from the report, "About eight-in-ten LGBT respondents say the Muslim religion, the Mormon Church and the Catholic Church are unfriendly toward them" and "Similarly, about three-quarters of LGBT adults (73%) say that evangelical churches are unfriendly toward them", with evangelicals also seeing a growth in the percentage of LGBT.

For whatever reason, our generation loves orthodoxy. Theologically conservative while being socially liberal seems to be the go to.

TBH. It's not surprising after a life time of this.



Some sucker talking random shit trying to convince us it's tongues. "PRAISE JESUS!!!! HALLELEJUAH!!!!" as some old woman screams in ectasy with body shakes. Reminds me of pastors sister who would randomly scream for attentio in the middle service.

Protestantism. Never again.



It isn't a surprise that it's the fake stuff is dying.

[I'm a Puppy!]

Nah, the protestant stuff wont die out in America anytime soon. It's got that all of the self-righteousness with none of the costs thing that Americans love so much. It's slacktivism but for conservatives. Sure it's losing ground, but then so is nearly every religion. But don't under-estimate the appeal of low cost sanctimoniousness.

[Phoenix Dark]

To get this topic back on track: PD, do you have any BBC videos with two dudes using a pighole fuckable buttplug? I can find vids of average non-BBC dudes using them, but I really want to see them put to the test. The circumference of the inner hole has me thinking they may not be BBC compatible.

I'm guessing this isn't really feasible. However I'd imagine there's an amateur tumblr porn guy somewhere who takes requests.

[I'm a Puppy!]

"guessing"

[TVC15]

To get this topic back on track: PD, do you have any BBC videos with two dudes using a pighole fuckable buttplug? I can find vids of average non-BBC dudes using them, but I really want to see them put to the test. The circumference of the inner hole has me thinking they may not be BBC compatible.

I'm guessing this isn't really feasible. However I'd imagine there's an amateur tumblr porn guy somewhere who takes requests.

To give you numbers, the smallest pighole fuckable buttplug has a fuckable diameter of 1.5 inches, and the largest I've seen is 2.5 inches. Do you think the 2.5 incher would be wide enough for at least the majority of BBCs?