Maurice "McCain can't lose" Cooks explain this to me

[Cheebs]

New poll numbers came out. Hillary(and Obama's) lead on McCain continues to rise. Ever since around Sept. Hillary rises and McCain falls in general polls. Before you say "lol too early" yes that applies to Obama and other candidates in this and and past elections but Hillary was a very very public politicaly active first lady. 99% of the country say they know her very well already. As for McCain the more America learns of him the more his polls drop as shown as his polls consistantly dropping month by month. The more McCain is out there the more America realizes he supports the war. Not good.

So my dear sir. Explain this:


This month:
Hillary: 50%
McCain: 44%

Last month:
Hillary: 48%
McCain: 47%


 

[Phoenix Dark]

If you think Hillary Clinton is going to beat anyone in November you're grossly mistaken. Once the election actually starts and the machine that is the GOP starts rolling you can kiss her chances goodbye. When will you political junkies realize that at this point in time before the primaries, polls do not matter.

Conservatives want her to win the nomination.

[Cheebs]

Explain how a war supporter can win a election when the public's ONLY concern(no other issue even comes close in polling) right now for the most part is the war and all but 20%~ are extremely against it.

This is not 2004 where the public was split on the war and it was only a year old.

Right now USA would elect Satan over a resurrected Ronald Reagan if Satan was against the war.

[Phoenix Dark]

Well I suppose they'd elect Satan considering the public's fascination with drive through abortions, Christian beatings, and gay marriage

[Cheebs]

Well I suppose they'd elect Satan considering the public's fascination with drive through abortions, Christian beatings, and gay marriage

You fail to realize how important the Iraq war is. This is 1976 all over again. The public was out for Ford's blood due to watergate and his nixon pardon(it over time was seen as the right thing but then not at all) much like Iraq War's taint today and they would elect ANYONE that wasn't a republican connected to that.

In a fair election I highly doubt the inexperienced and rather weak candidate overall Carter(though a great man) could ever win. He was a poor speaker at the time and ran a average at best campaign and was in over his head.

Much like Hillary could never win in a fair election but all signs point to 2008 being the public out for war supporters blood.

[Phoenix Dark]

I'm tired of talking about make believe elections before the primary even starts. I seem to remember some polls that showed Dean slightly behind Bush, and Kerry slightly above Bush at various times last time.

If Hillary is nominated, whoever runs against her will win, possibly in a landslide. Those will forever be my thoughts until proven otherwise

[Diablos]

You're entitled to think she has no shot, but you're also nuts if you think McCain will make it past the primary. He has no chance REGARDLESS of Hillary's potential bad situation. He won't make it past the primary.

[Phoenix Dark]

Once I get a clear cut view of who's in/who's out of the Republican primary things will probably change - you are correct.

[Diablos]

Bottom line: If Hillary's gonna get owned by another Republican, it won't be John McCain. But I really do think Hillary may share the same fate as him. All of this shit on the news is a big annoying ridiculous hype fest; I feel like I'm watching ESPN with the way they talk about her sometimes.

I think a year from now things will be looking very different. Hillary can raise money until her face turns blue, but even if a lot of loyal Democrats don't have the confidence in her to not only get the nomination but then successfully make a dash for the White House, they won't pick her.

[Phoenix Dark]

Did you hear Chris Matthews constantly bring up the fact that the "Vegas odds" of her winning the election are 50-50 and how she's a lock for the nomination? God he pisses me off sometimes

[Van Cruncheon]

explain again why you hate hilary

[Diablos]

Yeah. Chris Matthews can be such a tard. "Everyone's saying it's betting now! Polls don't mean anything!" 

[brawndolicious]

She has a CHANCE but McCain has no chance.  End of story.

[Human Snorenado]

Guys, I don't know why we're spending so much time talking about Hillary when it's obvious that my main man Dennis Kucinich is gonna not only steamroll to the Dem. nomination, but crush whoever the GOP candidate is like the evil leprachaun that he is.

[brawndolicious]

Does Jim Webb have a chance?

[Phoenix Dark]

I don't hate Hillary, I just don't like her. I find her to be repulsive, and not because she's a woman. I like ambitious women but Hillary doesn't do it for me.

Too much about her seems manufactured, as if she's some robot who's been revised and remastered over the last decade according to the way the wind is blowing. The war is going well? Oh, I support it. The war is not going well? President Bush you have to be responsible.

And to make matters worse, her pandering on more middle of the road social issues just pisses me off. While one could argue that McCain is worse, I would rather have him running our foreign policy than her. I'm sorry.

[Cheebs]

Does Jim Webb have a chance?

wtf? He just got into the senate THIS MONTH. Why would he run?

[brawndolicious]

PD, you just made the crappiest point I've ever read.

wtf? He just got into the senate THIS MONTH. Why would he run?

I meant does he EVER have a chance?

[Cheebs]

And to make matters worse, her pandering on more middle of the road social issues just pisses me off. While one could argue that McCain is worse, I would rather have him running our foreign policy than her. I'm sorry.

But he is WRONG on foreign policy. Is he experienced in it? Yes but he hasn't got a clue. Rumsfeld was experienced as was Cheney.

Why is his foreign policy good when america thinks his position is wrong?

[Phoenix Dark]

I'm not interested in what America thinks

[Van Cruncheon]

PD, even though most male politicians -- like McCain -- are the same. You hate her 'cuz she's a woman and doesn't fit your stereotype.

I hate Hilary for legitimate reasons, which I'll share once you get a few.

[Phoenix Dark]

PD, even though most male politicians -- like McCain -- are the same. You hate her 'cuz she's a woman and doesn't fit your stereotype.

I hate Hilary for legitimate reasons, which I'll share once you get a few.

I think many people have similar complaints as mine. She just comes off as if she's been sitting around gauging the American public on every issue and trying to concoct the perfect populist message - for a decade.

On the nit-picky side I find her public speaking method to be grating

[Van Cruncheon]

That's purely an emotional reaction, which is almost always lodged in gender or racial expectations. You simply don't like a woman possessing those traits you'll overlook in a male politician.

[Phoenix Dark]

That's purely an emotional reaction, which is almost always lodged in gender or racial expectations. You simply don't like a woman possessing those traits you'll overlook in a male politician.

Bullshit. I didn't like Kerry for the same reason.

Hillary is far more manufactured than any current politician

[Van Cruncheon]

define "manufactured". More manufactured than McCain, who has been groomed and tailored to speak the Bush cabal line?

[Diablos]

That's purely an emotional reaction, which is almost always lodged in gender or racial expectations. You simply don't like a woman possessing those traits you'll overlook in a male politician.

Hillary is far more manufactured than any current politician

No she's not. She just stands out more because she's the only woman running for President so far.

McCain is definitely more "manufactured" if we're going to play this game. Or how about Rudy? Dude isn't even a fucking Republican at the end of the day, but he leeches onto the party's message, because he knows that's the only way he can survive. I mean this guy was a Democrat until he pulled a Joe Lieberman and switched his party so he could get the votes to win.

[Phoenix Dark]

define "manufactured". More manufactured than McCain, who has been groomed and tailored to speak the Bush cabal line?

Manufactured in this sense means an almost fantatical obsession with what the public's opinion is and the willingness to change one's policies and even mindset to fit that. Hillary Clinton is certainly not the only politician to suffer from this. If anything she got this from her husband, who was notorious at holding "secret" focus groups about upcoming policies and legislation.

In Hillary's case, everything seems to be a calculated step towards her goal. There's no room for originality or controversy; she's unwilling to take any issue stance that's in opposition to the public's opinion. Whether you like McCain or not there's no denying that his recent Iraq revelation is very controversal and in direct opposition to what the public wants. This is the opposite of what most Democrats not named Kucinich/Dean/Obama/Gore/etc did with respect to supporting the war: they've been against it from the very beginning when it was indeed very popular in the public's eye.

My problem with Hillary is very similar to my problem with FDR. While there's no question he was a great leader in a dangerous time period, FDR was a shameless politician solely interested in winning elections. At the time he knew that supporting the civil right's movement would be very unpopular with the southern democrats he relied on to pass his mounds of legislation, and because of this he refused to touch the issue - despite his wife's pleas. And just like that, FDR went down in history as one of the great presidents in our history. A great leader, and a great democrat who just so happened to not give a shit about African and Japanese Americans.

On the other hand there's LBJ, who has gone down in history as one of the worse presidents of our time due to one issue - Vietnam, and his indifference to the problems with the Gulf of Tonkin. Yet it was LBJ, the southern democrat, who passed the civil rights bill, which had laid unsigned on the desk of another over rated president who went down in history as a great leader. LBJ's ties to the south ran far deeper than FDR's, yet he used his masterful, whip-esque persuation politics to get the votes he needed to pass that landmark bill. While LBJ is justly dogged by his Vietnam failures, he should be given the credit he deserves for standing against the more popular, "easy" thing to do with respect to civil rights and doing what was right.

I'm sorry for the history rant, but it brings me back to Hillary as well as the new found emphasis on "what America wants". I'm not a fan of politicians who's only claim to fame is telling people what they want to hear (Obama currently falls in that category) or who are unwilling to take unpopular stances on issues - such as Hillary. Instead Hillary has decided to manufacture a public persona which agrees with nearly everyone yet stands for little.  What is Hillary Clinton passionate about, other than her calculated, manufactured pursuit of the highest position of public service? From what I have observed, nothing

[The Miles Trahan Burger Experiment]

HAY GUYS HOW BOUT OBAMA

[Diablos]

define "manufactured". More manufactured than McCain, who has been groomed and tailored to speak the Bush cabal line?

I'm not a fan of politicians who's only claim to fame is telling people what they want to hear (Obama currently falls in that category)

Actually, Obama has some big brass balls, stating that the next President should be responsible for universal health care. Most middle and upper class folks aren't too crazy about the idea and he could lose a lot of support.

[Phoenix Dark]

I seem to remember some polls that showed there is interest in that type of health care. While conservatives would hate that - and understandably so - I don't see much opposition in the general public who seems to believe that all Americans should indeed have coverage

[Flannel Boy]

Health care huh?

[Phoenix Dark]

The republicans should just let the democrats walk into that landmine

[Flannel Boy]

The republicans should just let the democrats walk into that landmine

It is not a landmine since people like to suckle on a breast and they don't care whether it's bone dry or not.

[Phoenix Dark]

A Canadian with good sense

But then again you have this system in your country correct?

[Flannel Boy]

A Canadian with good sense

But then again you have this system in your country correct?

We don't have much of a military nor a giant deficit. The government takes in more than it spends.

[Diablos]

If we can't have universal health care here, then something has to be done about the rising costs. This shit is beyond ridiculous. Someone making under like $25,000-30,000 shouldn't be expected to pay a whole lot. It's a broken system increasingly becoming geared towards the haves and teases the have-nots with its insanely high price.

[Cheebs]

PD you say you don't care what America thinks about McCain's foreign policy stance. How about YOU?

Do you agree with McCain that adding 20k troops is the right thing to do and will work like he says it will?

Do you agree with him that the war was worth it? Do you agree with him that even today you support the initial the Iraq invasion?

[Diablos]

Cheebs makes PD political threads play out like a fucking PAC commercial

[Cheebs]

Cheebs makes PD political threads play out like a fucking PAC commercial

But it is true! I bet he doesn't agree with ANYTHING on McCain's stance of Iraq. 

[Phoenix Dark]

PD you say you don't care what America thinks about McCain's foreign policy stance. How about YOU?

Do you agree with McCain that adding 20k troops is the right thing to do and will work like he says it will?

Do you agree with him that the war was worth it? Do you agree with him that even today you support the initial the Iraq invasion?

An extra 20k troops is not going to be the "disaster" many are calling it, by any stretch of the imagination. While I disagree with the move (if it had to be done - 100,000 would be way more logical) and think it won't help, I'm not a fan of leaving Iraq as fast as possible anyway. I've made my position on that clear.

Right now there's no true goal for the troops; it's just protect this, protect that, etc. Specific things need to be done in Iraq before I will support a withdrawl. And I truly believe these things could be done within a 6 month period - as some have suggested.

[Cheebs]

Right now there's no true goal for the troops; it's just protect this, protect that, etc. Specific things need to be done in Iraq before I will support a withdrawl. And I truly believe these things could be done within a 6 month period - as some have suggested.

The 6 month phased withdrawal is more or less the position of most democrats(including hillary, obama, and edwards).

Not McCain.   

Though all 3 have various ideas on how to get the Iraqi's moving. Most involve slapping some shock into the Iraq government.

Edwards says pull 50k out right now to send a signal and threaten to pull the rest unless they meet the guidelines

Hillary says stop giving the government any kind of money or supplies of any kind to punish them into meeting the goals.

Obama(as does Hillary) wants a official cap put on the troops saying we wont add a single more no matter how much worse it gets so they will know they can't rely on us when it gets worse.

[Cheebs]

Oh and McCain's stance is if the 20k doesn't work then add more. I believe he wants 30k in if this doesn't take off by June.


To put it bluntly:
McCain: add as many to be able to take the civil war by force
Democratic front runners: Do something drastic to the Iraq government to make them start attempting to take over(which they aren't they ignore the lead and most bloody militia due to them being Shiite)

[Phoenix Dark]

None of those "plans" fix the situation. If liberal pundits feel adding 20k troops would be a disaster, how could they call taking away 50k anything less? Edwards is shooting in the dark

Hillary's plan actually sounds good to me

[Cheebs]

None of those "plans" fix the situation. If liberal pundits feel adding 20k troops would be a disaster, how could they call taking away 50k anything less? Edwards is shooting in the dark

Hillary's plan actually sounds good to me

Edwards is running as the most liberal "take the troops home NOW" campaign in hopes of courting the very liberal wing knowing the more "moderates" are going for either Hillary or Obama.

This is why you see Hillary and Obama dealing more with taking on the government rather than pulling anyone out asap.

[Phoenix Dark]

None of those "plans" fix the situation. If liberal pundits feel adding 20k troops would be a disaster, how could they call taking away 50k anything less? Edwards is shooting in the dark

Hillary's plan actually sounds good to me

Edwards is running as the most liberal "take the troops home NOW" campaign in hopes of courting the very liberal wing knowing the more "moderates" are going for either Hillary or Obama.

This is why you see Hillary and Obama dealing more with taking on the government rather than pulling anyone out asap.

Good luck with that. Although I suppose Edwards is going to attract moderates no matter what so he feels getting the more liberal branch would just give him more total votes. His political career should be over by 2009 anyway unless he gets off his ass and runs for HOR or something

[Cheebs]

At a house party in Iowa, Ben Smith says Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY) would "invite dissent" into her administration much like Abraham Lincoln did and be much more "collaborative" than President Bush.

Clinton said she just finished reading Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin, an excellent book on how Lincoln governed by inviting former opponents to take part in his administration.

Come on you gotta agree with that. Hillary wants war supporters and other opponents in her administration to be a contrast to Bush's yes-men cabinet.

JFK did a similar thing giving many cabinet jobs to republicans he disagreed with.

[Phoenix Dark]

Let's see it happen

[APF]

Rumsfeld warred with just about everyone in the Administration except the VP, and we see where that got us in terms of foreign policy.  Powell was afraid to leave Washington as Secretary of State because he feared he'd lose whatever ground he was able to hold...

[Mupepe]

Health care huh?

(Image removed from quote.)

I think the same thing everytime someone brings that shit up.

[Cheebs]

Rumsfeld warred with just about everyone in the Administration except the VP, and we see where that got us in terms of foreign policy.  Powell was afraid to leave Washington as Secretary of State because he feared he'd lose whatever ground he was able to hold...

What amazes me is what happened to Robert Gates. He was part of the Iraq Commission and signed on pulling out troops via phased withdrawal and making peace with Iran. He even got super conservative GOP senator's to not vote for him due to this.

Yet now he is doing Bush talking points. I am confused at people not seeming to notice this.

[APF]

Being in a Presidential Administration, or being in power in general (hi Dems) seems to have a radical effect on your perspective, and rarely for the idealistic better.

[Cheebs]

the more power dems got the more they became anti-war. They were still waffling as late as early 2006. They were a confused split mess in 2004(similar to the gop today) and today they are unified in opposition to the war, the only significant war supporter in the party was more or less booted out(Lieberman)

[Diablos]

The US needs Parliament, so bad. I hate our system. It sucks.

[Cheebs]

The US needs Parliament, so bad. I hate our system. It sucks.

If we were parliamentary then bush's government would have been over-thrown in a vote of no confidence soon as democrats took power.


BUT the same thing would have happened to Bill Clinton with the GOP congress in 1998 even with the majority of America behind Bill.

[APF]

the more power dems got the more they became anti-war. They were still waffling as late as early 2006. They were a confused split mess in 2004(similar to the gop today) and today they are unified in opposition to the war, the only significant war supporter in the party was more or less booted out(Lieberman)

I think that says a lot less than you're making it out to be, however.  If Kerry gained the Presidency and we were experiencing the effects of his Administration's foreign policy, who knows where the political voice of the Democratic party would lie, even given the possibility that the same intractable level of violence/lack of (Iraqi) governmental movement were going on.  (uh, I didn't craft that sentence as well as I could)

[Diablos]

Yes, knowing what we know now. But who is to say events would play out exactly the same? Parliament does a much better job of checking authority... and Presidents would know this.

[Cheebs]

Yes, knowing what we know now. But who is to say events would play out exactly the same? Parliament does a much better job of checking authority... and Presidents would know this.

Neither Bush nor Clinton would ever been in charge.

The equilivant of nancy pelosi would be in charge based on how it works so its very iffy to use as a anti-bush example.

[Diablos]

I'm not using anything as an example, really. I just think Parliament is a much, much better system.

We also need more parties.

[Cheebs]

One aspect I would enjoy having without changing how our govt. works is shadow governments like the British have. The party not in the white house would have it's own shadow president, sec. of state, sec. of defense...etc

[etiolate]

I'm not PD but..

I hate Hillary because she's power hungry and would sacrifice all ethics to get power.  She also let down her own gender and is some twisted form of feminism, riding her vagina vote as far as she can without ever meaning anything by it.

I didn't like Bill, but at times he would let a little honesty out. They're(bill and hillary) pure poliiticians and I don't trust that.

I'm dissapointed by McCain because he did cheap out to the NeoCons after they treated him like crap. His statement about more troops is the ugly truth and it will cost him in the lection, but if you think we can just simply pull out then you're kidding yourself.

Obama is a doll, a manufactured sort.

AND I'M DONE!