Poll

What say you?

Yes
3 (12.5%)
No
5 (20.8%)
What's Net Neutrality?(fox news viewers option)
1 (4.2%)
What's the internet?(Ancient tribe option)
5 (20.8%)
Mupepe.com
10 (41.7%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Voting closed: November 24, 2017, 02:41:15 PM

Author Topic: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?  (Read 11289 times)

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Joe Molotov

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2017, 02:37:51 PM »
©@©™

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2017, 02:39:56 PM »
Quote
The term was coined by Columbia University media law professor Tim Wu in 2003, as an extension of the longstanding concept of a common carrier
Quote
According to Columbia Law School professor Tim Wu, the best way to explain network neutrality is that a public information network will end up being most useful if all content, websites, and platforms (e.g., mobile devices, video game consoles, etc.) are treated equally.
His original paper doesn't actually seem to describe why he chose the name rather than something closer to common carrier.

Quote
The concept of a "dumb network", comprising "dumb pipes", has been around since at least the early 1990s. The term "dumb network" refers to a network which is set up but has little or no control or management of the way users make use of the network. The term "dumb pipes" is analogous to water pipes used in a city water supply system; in theory, these pipes provide a steady supply of water to all users, regardless of the identity of the user or the users' activities with the water.
DUMB SERIES OF TUBES

there we go, best name possible

Nola

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2017, 02:41:44 PM »
Benji, I don’t mean to be a dick, but there seems to be a major disconnect in this conversation. Maybe I’m not explaining myself clearly, but I think I am.

The number of electricity companies does not actually indicate whether something is capable of being a natural monopoly or not(as a side note there are a little over 3000 counties in America as well, which technically, provides space for quite a lot of natural monopolies, even more when you consider the number of cities). In my city we have two electricity companies. But if you live on Lafayette street, you can only use one company. While yes, there is a regulatory component, the thing being spoken about though is that none of these companies really have the capacity to overtake the other or provide competition once the other has established their market share. For company B to encroach on Company A’s territory, it would involve needing to build an entire new infastructure as they go, and all the complexity that entails, capturing a large percentage of the potential market share to justify the costs of that expansion. While secondarily creating redundancy in the use of scarce land resources. And that’s just to establish one new competitor, to get to a place of being a text book highly competitive market is likely going my to require many more. Even in the most generous scenario, there are just markets and market spaces where that is nearly impossible in unregulated circumstances. Heck in many instances, to even establish a market you have to pay people to go build it, like the government did for ATT and internet for rural areas. But we are supposed to think that some other competitor is capable or willing to unsubsidized build out a competing network for that community?

You mention Dallas, and Dallas and major big cities are definitely better insulated to these forces, since they are large population hubs. But like with most things, the potential ROI declines rapidly for smaller cities and towns. If it wasn’t clear, this is not an all or nothing argument. There are certainly situations, like highly populated areas, where the dynamics of an industry play out differently given the market space, and that dynamism should be accounted for. Places that are not as prone to natural monopoly issues. But to pull another example more in my wheelehouse, take large general hospitals with an ER. No manner of deregulation or anything else besides incredible subsidization is going to justify a competitor investment in a relatively small city disconnected from a larger population hub, except in rare exceptions, from investing in a major encompassing ER hospital. Because the demand, supply, and ROI is not there for another competitor to enter that particular market space. Which from another angle gets to the same inherent market issue facing large swaths of the country, if not the vast majorit it, when it comes to ISP’s, cable companies, electricity, sanitation etc.


Quote
This is every future market segment that may come to exist. If natural monopolies exist and can self-sustain, why are there no examples of them historically? (Even just after The Two Revolutions to make things both post-Smith and probably easier to trace on Google.)

You mean why are there not examples of natural monopolies cropping up around things like sanitation when people used to just throw their shit on the street or in the nearest river? IDK, good question.

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2017, 02:45:48 PM »
Wu ran as the lieutenant governor candidate of Zephyr Teachout against Andrew Cuomo in the 2014 Democratic primaries. Seems like a pretty solid guy then, I'm still not sure about letting him name this idea randomly like this though.

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2017, 04:04:28 PM »
Benji, I don’t mean to be a dick, but there seems to be a major disconnect in this conversation. Maybe I’m not explaining myself clearly, but I think I am.
Yes, there is, and you aren't being a dick and are doing just fine. That's why I put the thing on top of my last post about this being too much of a digression into benjiville. But I think you may have missed my statement about premises because it's arguably the most clarifying one for this disconnect and confusion but I did kinda toss it in at the end off handedly.

Quote
But to pull another example more in my wheelehouse, take large general hospitals with an ER. No manner of deregulation or anything else besides incredible subsidization is going to justify a competitor investment in a relatively small city disconnected from a larger population hub, except in rare exceptions, from investing in a major encompassing ER hospital. Because the demand, supply, and ROI is not there for another competitor to enter that particular market space.
And like I said that doesn't seem like a good reason to continue justifying legal protection for a monopoly. If the worst case scenario of removing the gilded protections, like certificates of need, is nothing changes, what's been lost?

Quote
You mean why are there not examples of natural monopolies cropping up around things like sanitation when people used to just throw their shit on the street or in the nearest river? IDK, good question.
I meant why are there no examples of sustained natural monopolies period? Maybe I'm just ignorant (maybe?) but I've never heard of a single one. You'd think they were a regular occurrence in nature rather than needing to be established by law.

Outlawing pollution doesn't require the establishment of an often vertically integrated monopoly corporation with sole providence to provide sanitation services. Nor does establishing such a corporation, while outlawing competitors, indicate any kind of preexisting natural monopoly needing to be protected let alone the end of people throwing shit around.

Quote
Heck in many instances, to even establish a market you have to pay people to go build it, like the government did for ATT and internet for rural areas.
That's not establishing a market, that's shifting costs. And in that case the government paid AT&T and others billions to promise to build things they never did and still haven't and probably won't. They have never even met the at the time FCC Broadband standard, let alone the one they got the money for. They instead are meeting their own "standard" through expanding fixed wireless, they never even laid fiber to replace the copper except where Google Fiber and Fios were butting in. I doubt they even come close to their seven year promise on their own standard, the FCC's is probably complete nonsense.

And we shouldn't forget that the feds only offered the subsidies no-strings to select already dominant corporations, then whatever they didn't take was bid out. Which during the second round the former realized they left free money on the table since there's no enforcement mechanism.

Quote
The number of electricity companies does not actually indicate whether something is capable of being a natural monopoly or not(as a side note there are a little over 3000 counties in America as well, which technically, provides space for quite a lot of natural monopolies, even more when you consider the number of cities). In my city we have two electricity companies. But if you live on Lafayette street, you can only use one company. While yes, there is a regulatory component, the thing being spoken about though is that none of these companies really have the capacity to overtake the other or provide competition once the other has established their market share.
...
But we are supposed to think that some other competitor is capable or willing to unsubsidized build out a competing network for that community?
Where did all these natural monopolies or this natural duopoly come from in the first place? Just got there first? Why is outlawing competition so essential if their permanent status of unchecked dominance is assured by the forces of nature?

But none of this philosophical digression is really relevant to the DUMB SERIES OF TUBES discussion or anything the government does since they aren't going to be allowing anything like theoretical and hypothetical future competition into captured sectors of the market in our lifetimes.

Mandark

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2017, 05:19:46 PM »
Why is outlawing competition so essential if their permanent status of unchecked dominance is assured by the forces of nature?

cause unregulated monopoly maximizes profits by underproducing ur welcome

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2017, 05:36:09 PM »
cause unregulated monopoly maximizes profits by underproducing ur welcome
Why would removing their protected monopoly status leave them entirely unregulated? The regulations for the industry would remain in place. Not to mention, all kinds of non-monopoly companies are regularly regulated extensively.

Mandark

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2017, 05:39:51 PM »
require different kinda regulatory structure if ensuring provision to entire population is a primary concern

Raist

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2017, 07:10:57 PM »
FCC? I don't know her.

Nola

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #69 on: December 03, 2017, 11:04:28 PM »



And like I said that doesn't seem like a good reason to continue justifying legal protection for a monopoly. If the worst case scenario of removing the gilded protections, like certificates of need, is nothing changes, what's been lost?

Woah, woah, lets step back here a moment. There might be some core misperceptions going on that are causing what seems like an emerging rift that risks just talking past each other. Because that is not really my position here. And my position is not really well framed by a lot of what you are inferring in your other responses. I'm not really advocating for or defending a lot of what you seem to think I am.

To clarify more clearly(hopefully), my position is that you have a multi-faceted issue going on(I could go into more detail but I think these broad strokes are good enough):

  • You have an issue where this market provides an essential service to society, that is a gateway to an even more essential service. That's proliferation relies on usage of shared scarce resources(sometimes requiring large-scale direct investment to establish). Thats market dynamics are such that the emergence of a naturally occurring highly competitive marketplace to fill that need, at least in a not insignificant number of regions., is not really possible. Due to issues of exceptionally high capital costs for entry, an often required very high market-share to become profitable, and the first market leader often enjoying an extremely high cost advantage that is difficult to overcome and often prevents multiple viable direct competitors from emerging.
  • On top of that unique market dynamic, the issues are compounded by a problem of regulatory capture and successful rent-seeking. Laws and regulatory over-take that have made things for the consumer worse, killed competition where it may have been possible to emerge, and generally fuck things up in laymen terms.



We exist in a moment where this is the reality. Perhaps a major leap in technology will change that, as has happened in the past, but for now that is the reality.

I'm not really using the term natural monopoly except as an explanatory short-hand for the type of market I am describing in point 1. I actually don't think the market is best served by carving out protections for a single provider in an area and barring competitors. If that was inferenced at any point, streams got crossed somewhere.

If I had benevolent dictator power, I would rescind those industry laws that serve to insulate established industry and has allowed many to successfully rent seek. In fact, aside from the hopeful further proliferation of municipal broadband options, I would go further and look to places like England that came up with creative ways to address the infrastructure redundancy and lower the barriers to entry. Achieved by requiring by law that the pipes and poles are to be shared by anyone that wants to enter the market, and if a start up wants to tap into existing infrastructure they can pay a fee to the major company to do so(with some oversight).

However, and this gets to why I think net neutrality is essential, especially today, because of the market dynamics presented in point 1, and likely still present even in my utopia ideal for many regions, that some  broad regulatory oversight and consumer protection laws are going to still be necessary to protect the consumer. Like ensuring that companies that are the gateway to the internet, a vital resource for this country, are not allowed the legal wiggle room for malfeasance.



recursivelyenumerable

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2017, 03:28:20 PM »
As to the previous, market share in and of itself isn't an issue because market share is often unstable especially in environments where a disruptive tech can change everything. I remember the days when no one could see a future that didn't have AOL as a major player especially after it bought out Netscape and CompuServe, or where Internet Explorer wasn't going to be the thing that killed browser innovation because no company could ever touch Microsoft. IBM All of these had what was considered unassailable market share, and all of them lost it. It was widely regarded that the antitrust suit that was brought against Microsoft was pointless at the end of the day because their market share dropped due to competition, naturally.

I don't really agree with this. The main reason competition was able to dislodge IE from its dominant position is that Microsoft reassigned most of its developers to a different project (the Windows Presentation Foundation, which was partly an attempt to bring some of the advantages of web applications to "native" Windows apps) and kept it going with just a skeleton maintenance crew in India for like 5 years, during which time Firefox and others were able to catch up and overtake it. The antitrust situation was one of the reasons for this decision, along with the collapse of the dot-com bubble; they convinced management that Microsoft wasn't going to be able to make money off of web browsers or web applications and should refocus on native Windows applications instead.
QED


Tasty

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2017, 01:53:59 PM »
RIP

My hope is that there will be a full NN bill when the Dems retake Congress next year, but that's a long shot. :-\

Atramental

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2017, 02:26:26 PM »
3 DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS TEETH NEED TO GET KICKED IN. NOW.  :maf

ESPECIALLY PAI'S. THAT GOOFY FUCKHEAD.


Brehvolution

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2017, 03:57:51 PM »
3 DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS TEETH NEED TO GET KICKED IN. NOW.  :maf

ESPECIALLY PAI'S. THAT GOOFY FUCKHEAD.

From the op:
©ZH

CatsCatsCats

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2017, 04:09:46 PM »
This post filtered by Frontier

I'm a Puppy!

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2017, 07:23:17 PM »
3 DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS TEETH NEED TO GET KICKED IN. NOW.  :maf

ESPECIALLY PAI'S. THAT GOOFY FUCKHEAD.
I keep saying it, if revolutionary France had the internet, the government would've brought up the idea of killing net neutrality....once.
que

CatsCatsCats

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2017, 08:34:07 PM »
3 DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS TEETH NEED TO GET KICKED IN. NOW.  :maf

ESPECIALLY PAI'S. THAT GOOFY FUCKHEAD.
I keep saying it, if revolutionary France had the internet, the government would've brought up the idea of killing net neutrality....once.

I’m stealing this

agrajag

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2017, 11:11:17 PM »

chronovore

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2017, 11:35:49 PM »
RIP

My hope is that there will be a full NN bill when the Dems retake Congress next year, but that's a long shot. :-\
It's likely that the states will ignore federal law and push their own agenda, despite the wording in the FCC policy. As a recourse, it will go to the SCOTUS, and hopefully be overturned. We haven't seen much pushback on legalizing marijuana, and that is a case of very serious federal laws being flagrantly violated.
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Great Rumbler

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dog

Joe Molotov

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2017, 12:16:48 AM »
Hello, fellow millennials. Know where I can score some DANK MAYMAYS?
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Momo

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2017, 12:23:06 AM »
It's been nice knowing you guys, unfortunately I cannot afford the $9.99 a month my ISP asks to prioritize TheBore.com beyond 3Kbps browsing. I love you all, stay safe.  :salute

Nola

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2017, 04:52:16 PM »


This video contains content from BB_TVMadDecent, who has blocked it on copyright grounds

 


...Getting flagged for copyright infringement as FCC chairman for unauthorized use of the Harlem Shake in 2017 bruh :neogaf

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #85 on: December 16, 2017, 12:21:52 AM »
I keep saying it, if revolutionary France had the internet, the government would've brought up the idea of killing net neutrality....once.
You and I remember the French Revolution very differently.

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VomKriege

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #86 on: December 16, 2017, 02:54:27 AM »
Someone (Nola ?) said they hope the current context would inhibit providers. I don't expect them to go right away to selling packs for faster internet but I'm sure they'll start soon degrading subtly the broadband of some sites while pushing for an alternative service they have a stake in (video streaming seems ripe for this) through advertisements and why not.

And if they're smart they won't pass away those new costs to consumers now, because I guess they can leverage this with big sites (pay up or get worse delivery across our tubes). Much more discrete and under the radar.

By the way the CEO of Orange (formerly France Telecom, one of the largest European company in the industry) is not a supporter of Net Neutrality. His argument is that you'll need a tiered Internet for smart cars, smart devices, etc... The argument being those are much less network intensive or something.

ὕβρις

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #87 on: December 16, 2017, 03:49:04 AM »
Part of the reason the fears about the hellscape we're entering now aren't tremendously strong in some circles is because the ISPs had the ability to do all sorts of stuff before the rule change (which hasn't exactly been thrown at anyone) that has been in effect for only the last two years, but it was never in their interests to do so. It's essentially a short term gain for long term problems. Deliberately degrading their networks on large scales would run counter to how the major ISPs have worked for decades because it's a cost not a savings. Where the minor change has occurred in recent years is major ISPs now have content arms/services. But the fragmentation on that is still limiting.

Of course, I shouldn't have to qualify that because they didn't in the past, they can't/won't in the future. There are actually a number of progressive groups opposed to net neutrality as a priority over other telecom regulations because they don't see the concerns as immediate or even likely compared to others based on how the ISPs are setup and their goals. There could be similar issues to what you relay from the Orange CEO. (Which is the formerly FRANCE Telecom now ORANGE?!?)

Me personally, I don't get worked up about this either way like some people are saying they are because as to my point earlier in the thread, but me personally I still don't see how the FCC can write and enforce specific net neutrality rules exactly, and every time I've looked into it as the years go on, no progress has really been made on that front. But that's me personally. Also the FCC. Which continues to operate based on laws from 1934 with amendments from 1996. Congress doesn't seem very interested in net neutrality or anything from an actual legislative stand point. (Other than an internet kill switch, and the ability to store the entire internet in Utah.)

Now this doesn't mean we aren't in a hellscape where we now no longer can find out about abortions, but that's just the cost of being a woman in this maleocentric manocracy that is the Russian owned Gamergate dominated internet. Thanks Berniebros.

VomKriege

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #88 on: December 16, 2017, 03:55:45 AM »
Quote
Which is the formerly FRANCE Telecom now ORANGE?!?

I'm sure there's a thousand page brand identity charter in a locker somewhere to explain that one.
ὕβρις

curly

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #89 on: December 20, 2017, 12:07:38 AM »
lol @ benji giving the Mises institute definition of monopoly

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2017, 01:38:59 AM »
enough with the slander by associating my noxious views with others organizations

jorma

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2017, 02:36:22 AM »
I am not trying to be antagonistic or ignorant about this, but really... so what?

Let's look at the doomsday scenario here. Net neutrality is no more. Do you really think that all the basement coders on Slashdot will just go away? I don't. They'll still want a way to run their own mini ISPs, host their own stuff, run their own mail servers and Usenet servers..... I think the market will decide. If there's a market for unfettered access to the wider internet, then somebody will make it happen, and most likely make a TON of cash in the process.

Worst case, I see a two-tiered internet. Companies that sell a commercialised internet for folk who only buy Apple products and essentially need Facebook, Twitter, Netflix, Wikipedia and Google and smaller bespoke operations that will provide internet access akin to what we have now. These actually already exist in most major developed countries. Here's one off the top of my head.

I'm entirely comfortable with this. Let net neutrality die. Then give us our tiny ISPs back from the days where a local ISP had a customer base in the thousands rather than the tens of millions. We'll have a choice and we can pay for a better, neutral, even potentially more unregulated internet if we choose to do so. The market will decide.

Yes, 10 years from now you and me should compare our internet access. I'm currently living in a country where net neutrality has not been neutered, and i pay 15 euro monthly for an uncapped gigabit connection and the ISP doesn't fuck around with my speeds depending on whether i'm torrenting a file from pirate bay, viewing youtube or reading shitty comments on how a multi-tiered internet might be a good thing.

10 years from now you should have improved your internet relative to mine and then we will know that this was all a big nothing burger.


benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2017, 02:52:01 AM »
why wait ten years, the U.S. has never effectively had federally enforced net neutrality and I've never been able to get anything approaching an uncapped gigabit connection for under $20 a month

r.i.p. in peace kurt russell

jorma

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #93 on: December 20, 2017, 02:59:25 AM »
why wait ten years, the U.S. has never effectively had federally enforced net neutrality and I've never been able to get anything approaching an uncapped gigabit connection for under $20 a month

r.i.p. in peace kurt russell

I actually meant that the gap between his internet-terms and mine should be closer in 10 years and not further apart as i think.

I wasn't suggesting he would have the same terms as i do. My terms are good now because of some decisions the swedish goverment made over 20 years ago.


benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #94 on: December 20, 2017, 03:10:54 AM »
yeah, but i'm not sure about the metrics you've chosen for comparison regarding the FCC continuing its policy of the prior ten years

the fastest internet i can pay for is $80 a month for 75 mbps with a 1TB monthly cap, though if i moved five miles across the city to some specific apartments i could get that gigabit starting at $60 a month for a two year contract

ten years ago i think we would have had much more similar terms available to each of us than the current gap

and this is despite my mother's grandparents being swedish immigrants

jorma

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #95 on: December 20, 2017, 03:24:52 AM »
yeah, but i'm not sure about the metrics you've chosen for comparison regarding the FCC continuing its policy of the prior ten years

the fastest internet i can pay for is $80 a month for 75 mbps with a 1TB monthly cap, though if i moved five miles across the city to some specific apartments i could get that gigabit starting at $60 a month for a two year contract

ten years ago i think we would have had much more similar terms available to each of us than the current gap

and this is despite my mother's grandparents being swedish immigrants

If it's any consolation, your swedish great grandparents also had a really shitty interent. The ping over the atlantic was fucking terrible.

I'm not really sure what my point is. My internet is better than yours now because of decisions our respective governments made decades ago, where it turned out that my government choose a way that led to world class speeds and at the same time cheaper internet access.

Now my government has yet again decided on a different approach compared to yours, and yet again i feel that i came off better for it, as a consumer.

Incidentally - the investment into mobile internet in Sweden looked a lot more like the US investment into regular internet access, and as a result Swedish mobile internet offerings are really unappealing and expensive compared to the real thing.





benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #96 on: December 20, 2017, 04:12:52 AM »
I'm not sure that any of the facts in these cases are similar.

The FCC has ordered the status of ISPs to be reverted from how they were 2015-2017 to how they were 2005-2015. Even though it didn't to my current knowledge even enact or enforce any new rules under the new classification it placed ISPs under for the last two years. The FCC can change this to the 2015-2017 status at any time it wishes.

Sweden not only has its own rules, notably in this conversation never having had any requiring "net neutrality" that I can find, but the EU's rules as well. With the EU holding the heavy hand on establishing telecom regulations considering its geographical and multinational scope. Especially in comparison to an agency needing a mere switch of one vote on a five person committee.

And that's even assuming the FCC's reclassification is the key factor in the first place, most of its authority is derived from laws dating to 1996 and 1934. The only reason the FCC's reclassification order holds any significance that I can tell is because it's protected from being challenged in court and thus seen as an ideal tool to enact regulations via.

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #97 on: December 20, 2017, 04:20:58 AM »
the wastelands of mid-michigan

seems fiber to the home is expanding quite quickly though, comcast is going to get its legs cut out from under it after already letting AT&T catch up with their DSL speeds

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #98 on: December 20, 2017, 04:27:45 AM »
on topic, I'm not sure the FTC isn't the proper agency over the FCC, or why anyone wants the FCC of all agencies to be enforcing something

but I should probably look into this whole net neutrality kerfuffle more than I have ever before continuing to post about the topic, I've only skimmed the topic as it's come up over the years, I don't "oppose" it inherently like some posters upthread (or it seems I should) because of some things already discussed in the thread, but I also don't "support" it because I don't know what it exactly is supposed to look like, especially in the FCC's or Congress's mind

wait, maybe the DEA should be the agenc... :insane :paul

jorma

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2017, 07:08:25 AM »
I'm not sure that any of the facts in these cases are similar.

The FCC has ordered the status of ISPs to be reverted from how they were 2015-2017 to how they were 2005-2015. Even though it didn't to my current knowledge even enact or enforce any new rules under the new classification it placed ISPs under for the last two years. The FCC can change this to the 2015-2017 status at any time it wishes.

Sweden not only has its own rules, notably in this conversation never having had any requiring "net neutrality" that I can find, but the EU's rules as well. With the EU holding the heavy hand on establishing telecom regulations considering its geographical and multinational scope. Especially in comparison to an agency needing a mere switch of one vote on a five person committee.

And that's even assuming the FCC's reclassification is the key factor in the first place, most of its authority is derived from laws dating to 1996 and 1934. The only reason the FCC's reclassification order holds any significance that I can tell is because it's protected from being challenged in court and thus seen as an ideal tool to enact regulations via.


Hrm, did the US have tiered internet in between 2005 and 2015 when they weren't considered common carriers? Why did the rules change in 2015? Was it to address plans from ISP's to introduce it?
The big difference between now and then that i can see is that everyone seems to agree that it's going to happen on a big scale now.


kingv

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #100 on: December 20, 2017, 08:18:42 AM »
My understanding was that the fcc was actually enforcing de facto net neutrality prior to 2015, but never had any common carrier rules to say that was their policy. The common carrier switch was the response to a court case where Verizon said that the FCC didn’t have the authority to do what they were doing, which enabled them to clearly have said authority.

This is why the Ajit Pai arguments that “nothing bad happened before 2015” are sort of besides the point.

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #101 on: December 20, 2017, 08:23:24 AM »
It's more of a general rule that "it hasn't happened before, so it won't/can't" is a bad argument.

kingv

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #102 on: December 20, 2017, 08:30:50 AM »
True, but in this particular case it didn’t happen for a reason, and that reason was the fcc was issuing all sorts of rules to try to stop it.

This wired article has a summary of a all of the things the fcc was doing prior to 2015.

https://www.wired.com/story/what-an-internet-analyst-got-wrong-about-net-neutrality/

tiesto

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #103 on: December 20, 2017, 08:54:08 AM »
^_^

jorma

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #104 on: December 20, 2017, 10:27:03 AM »

By the way the CEO of Orange (formerly France Telecom, one of the largest European company in the industry) is not a supporter of Net Neutrality. His argument is that you'll need a tiered Internet for smart cars, smart devices, etc... The argument being those are much less network intensive or something.

I don't know if it's super smart or super dirty to use arguments that the opposing team by all rights should claim for their own. "The internet of things" is a huge reason to preserve net neutrality as far as i'm concerned.

kingv

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #105 on: December 20, 2017, 02:54:06 PM »
I think there is an argument for network management that places certain things as a higher priority than others, I.e.  self driving car traffic should be more important than streaming Netflix. If Netflix usage gets to a point where it will encroach on actual no shit safety issues, there is a case for throttling.

The problem, IMO, is when network optimization is used as a smokescreen to enable rent-seeking.

jorma

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #106 on: December 20, 2017, 04:19:59 PM »
I think there is an argument for network management that places certain things as a higher priority than others, I.e.  self driving car traffic should be more important than streaming Netflix. If Netflix usage gets to a point where it will encroach on actual no shit safety issues, there is a case for throttling.

The problem, IMO, is when network optimization is used as a smokescreen to enable rent-seeking.

I'm pretty sure a self driving car currently operates offline to prevent hacking so it's a bit of a moot point :) And i don't think self driving cars that depend on the internet to be safe enough to drive will be allowed for a long long time.

I don't really disagree though, and traffic shaping for safety reasons is already happening. In the end i do think that the internet is too important to let the ISP's self regulate this.

Tasty

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #107 on: December 20, 2017, 04:26:42 PM »
Yeah self-driving cars will be mandated to work fully offline, at least for a few decades. The only valuable reason for them to be allowed online is to coordinate with with traffic lights, which won't happen until most human drivers are off the roads. (And then we can eliminate traffic lights entirely.)

By that time I'm pretty sure the 6G or whatever network will be able to handle small JSON, or actually... probably binary, payloads. Even if there's tons of cars pinging the network.

kingv

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #108 on: December 20, 2017, 06:12:38 PM »
From what I understand, map accuracy is more important for self driving cars than say, google maps requiring frequent updates. I always figured that meant some sort of online connection would be required at least some of the time.

Tasty

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #109 on: December 20, 2017, 06:17:35 PM »
From what I understand, map accuracy is more important for self driving cars than say, google maps requiring frequent updates. I always figured that meant some sort of online connection would be required at least some of the time.

Google Maps has gotten pretty accurate, and construction isn't instantaneous, so I would imagine that map updates would be able to happen when the car is parked at home and connected to Wi-Fi.

kingv

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #110 on: December 20, 2017, 09:50:16 PM »
I think I saw something that indicated that one of the reasons googles cars were limited geographics is that they are using some kind of google maps on steroids that is updating effectively some sort of 3D mapping.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/07/technology/business/maps-wars-self-driving-cars/index.html


This article, is not super technical, but is talking about potentially daily updates being required. In areas with lots of construction, or overnight construction or something like that possibly even more frequently.

It just seems like a data connection will be basically required for long trips. I feel like a 3D spatial map of every roadway in the us is going to be multiple TBs, and would likely need to have some amount of redundancy. They also are talking about developing some sort of algorithms that don’t need a map, so maybe such a thing could work in tandem to take over when you get into a spot where the maps aren’t updated.

These infrastructure problems are one of the reasons I’m sort of skeptical about widespread autonomous cars anytime in the next ten years. Once you solve the technical issues, then you need to figure out how you are going to refresh maps of the entire US (or world!) about 10-20x as fast as google maps does today.

The other piece that would seem like a huge lift is how to certify these systems for reliability.

Tasty

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #111 on: November 30, 2020, 03:04:00 PM »

chronovore

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #112 on: November 30, 2020, 09:17:58 PM »
I had honestly almost forgotten about what an egregious mistake (intentional) posting Pai to that role was. Just like putting Betsy deVos in charge of education, or DeJoy in charge of the United States Postal Service. This is putting somebody directly opposed to the goals of the job in that role. Nauseating.