Poll

What say you?

Yes
3 (12.5%)
No
5 (20.8%)
What's Net Neutrality?(fox news viewers option)
1 (4.2%)
What's the internet?(Ancient tribe option)
5 (20.8%)
Mupepe.com
10 (41.7%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Voting closed: November 24, 2017, 02:41:15 PM

Author Topic: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?  (Read 11387 times)

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Brehvolution

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©ZH

HardcoreRetro

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2017, 02:52:13 PM »

Great Rumbler

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 02:57:37 PM »
I've got a small, regional ISP so the likelihood of them being able to extort any money out of websites is extremely minute.
dog

Steve Contra

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 03:16:51 PM »
Net Neutrality desperately needed a rebrand at some point a few years ago. Something that says less a computer programmer came up with this term and more without it you'll pay more for netflix.
vin

nachobro

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 03:23:43 PM »
call it "Porn will cost extra"

Brehvolution

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 03:26:35 PM »
"....would you like to know more?"

   NO          YES- $4.99
©ZH

shosta

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 03:51:52 PM »
I've got a small, regional ISP so the likelihood of them being able to extort any money out of websites is extremely minute.
They pay for a peering agreement with a larger ISP, so you're not immune to this.
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benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 04:44:57 PM »
I am collecting a fund to pay all ISP's in the Tobyhanna, PA area to only allow The Bore to be visited for free and charge $1000 a minute for NeoGAF.com or ResetERA.com access.

Note: I will spend this money on drugs.

hampster

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 04:49:55 PM »
Yes, but only the gaming side :-\
Zzz

team filler

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 04:50:21 PM »
we should be so lucky  :snob
*****

desert punk

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 04:50:26 PM »
Being European  :rejoice

TakingBackSunday

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 04:54:25 PM »
Will this effect Google Fiber
püp

toku

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2017, 04:59:53 PM »
Being European  :rejoice

you won't be safe forever

Rufus

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2017, 05:30:35 PM »
Oh, I'm very much expecting the EU to 'rethink' net neutrality if it's killed in the US.

Maybe I'm just pessimistic... :goty2

TakingBackSunday

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2017, 05:39:08 PM »
What’s there realistically to do?  Outside of voting in 18?
püp

chronovore

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2017, 06:37:28 PM »
The crazy thing about this is… wait, no: ONE of the crazy things about this is, your ISP is already committed to giving you the bandwidth you're paying for with tiered monthly fees. That they think they can also charge the broadcasters as well as the receivers is evil. We'll have to see if it holds up in court, because I suspect someone will eventually get a class action lawsuit together over this topic.

It's just amazing, ludicrous bullshit. The telcoms would have you believe that they're in a constant death spiral, but anyone can do the math on what their userbase * monthly rates for at-home internet and cellphone use are. It's ridiculous.

nachobro

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2017, 07:41:04 PM »
What’s there realistically to do?  Outside of voting in 18?
Realistically? Nothing. Vote in 18.

And it could affect Google Fiber. Once the new rules pass it's up to the various ISPs to decide how badly they want to fuck you.

chronovore

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2017, 08:59:14 PM »
Official WH petition regarding Net Neutrality.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/do-not-repeal-net-neutrality

Redirect link to the appropriate FCC page. Use +Express to post your own directly to their growing list of comments.
http://gofccyourself.com

We will probably have to fight this several times a year. Get used to it. Trump has a fox in every henhouse, we have to stay alert.

chronovore

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Trent Dole

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2017, 03:20:59 AM »
Yeah states rights only matter when it comes to hating non whites and LGBT people. :doge
Hi


Kurt Russell

  • Senior Member
Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2017, 10:14:33 AM »
I am not trying to be antagonistic or ignorant about this, but really... so what?

Let's look at the doomsday scenario here. Net neutrality is no more. Do you really think that all the basement coders on Slashdot will just go away? I don't. They'll still want a way to run their own mini ISPs, host their own stuff, run their own mail servers and Usenet servers..... I think the market will decide. If there's a market for unfettered access to the wider internet, then somebody will make it happen, and most likely make a TON of cash in the process.

Worst case, I see a two-tiered internet. Companies that sell a commercialised internet for folk who only buy Apple products and essentially need Facebook, Twitter, Netflix, Wikipedia and Google and smaller bespoke operations that will provide internet access akin to what we have now. These actually already exist in most major developed countries. Here's one off the top of my head.

I'm entirely comfortable with this. Let net neutrality die. Then give us our tiny ISPs back from the days where a local ISP had a customer base in the thousands rather than the tens of millions. We'll have a choice and we can pay for a better, neutral, even potentially more unregulated internet if we choose to do so. The market will decide.
woke

Mupepe

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2017, 10:41:23 AM »
I am not trying to be antagonistic or ignorant about this, but really... so what?

Let's look at the doomsday scenario here. Net neutrality is no more. Do you really think that all the basement coders on Slashdot will just go away? I don't. They'll still want a way to run their own mini ISPs, host their own stuff, run their own mail servers and Usenet servers..... I think the market will decide. If there's a market for unfettered access to the wider internet, then somebody will make it happen, and most likely make a TON of cash in the process.

Worst case, I see a two-tiered internet. Companies that sell a commercialised internet for folk who only buy Apple products and essentially need Facebook, Twitter, Netflix, Wikipedia and Google and smaller bespoke operations that will provide internet access akin to what we have now. These actually already exist in most major developed countries. Here's one off the top of my head.

I'm entirely comfortable with this. Let net neutrality die. Then give us our tiny ISPs back from the days where a local ISP had a customer base in the thousands rather than the tens of millions. We'll have a choice and we can pay for a better, neutral, even potentially more unregulated internet if we choose to do so. The market will decide.
Local ISP's get access through larger ISP's so they'll need to play their game too.  And I think what you mean is that we'll pay more than we are now unregulated internet access if we choose to do so (basically the internet we have now!).  Oh and when ISP's start charging  content providers for the bandwidth their services are taking (along with charging you) then Netflix, Hulu and all of that can go up too.  You're right.  Win/Win. 

My idea of the future might sound super pessimistic but yours sound super optimistic.

Tasty

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2017, 10:58:15 AM »
Quote
Then give us our tiny ISPs back from the days where a local ISP had a customer base in the thousands rather than the tens of millions

LOL thinking this is ever going to happen.

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2017, 08:15:38 PM »
Yeah, we can't go back to "true" tiny ISP's anymore, it's simply an infrastructure thing.

I suppose you could, and this does happen in some areas especially on DSL, have "indie" ISP's that piggyback on the big ones. These may find a way to more specifically tailor their services and offer options that the major ISP's trying to be one-size fits all can't.

I know there was somebody in, I want to say Colorado, trying to organize a "gaming ISP" that put priority on low latency that would then contract with the various ISP's available. As the major ISP's didn't care too much about the specifics of what it wanted they were happy to do this to fill their empty capacity. The "gaming ISP" handling the last mile or whatever part of the infastructure.

OnLive was running into this problem during its short life, in that ISP's were not optimized for what they wanted to do and ISP's didn't have any interest in accommodating them.

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2017, 08:20:50 PM »
I'm a bit less pessimistic than some about "net neutrality" changing because I haven't see evidence that most ISP's really truly know what they're doing in the first place at a management level, let alone care enough to actually pursue some of the greatest fears.

Comcast is unique among the three major ISPs in that they own NBCUniversal but even they seem to change their Xfinity goals every three months and backtracked off a lot of dumb policies and I don't think any of it has to do with customer response (as they don't care what their customers want) and instead is the result of some kind of set of endless internal management politics.

chronovore

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2017, 09:03:28 PM »
I am not trying to be antagonistic or ignorant about this, but really... so what?

Let's look at the doomsday scenario here. Net neutrality is no more. Do you really think that all the basement coders on Slashdot will just go away? I don't. They'll still want a way to run their own mini ISPs, host their own stuff, run their own mail servers and Usenet servers..... I think the market will decide. If there's a market for unfettered access to the wider internet, then somebody will make it happen, and most likely make a TON of cash in the process.

Worst case, I see a two-tiered internet. Companies that sell a commercialised internet for folk who only buy Apple products and essentially need Facebook, Twitter, Netflix, Wikipedia and Google and smaller bespoke operations that will provide internet access akin to what we have now. These actually already exist in most major developed countries. Here's one off the top of my head.

I'm entirely comfortable with this. Let net neutrality die. Then give us our tiny ISPs back from the days where a local ISP had a customer base in the thousands rather than the tens of millions. We'll have a choice and we can pay for a better, neutral, even potentially more unregulated internet if we choose to do so. The market will decide.

Because any time the citizenry are dealing with regulatory capture, it's government that faces away from the public it's supposed to be serving. This is about setting up a completely anti-competitive environment, including having the government saying they can prevent States from enacting their own requirements for net neutrality.

There have already been moves where municipalities have made their own ISPs for their citizens, effectively equivalent to providing parks for public recreation or libraries for education, but the corporations successfully lobbied to prevent that.

Let alone the fact that all of this is sitting on the tax-sponsored infrastructure, and is originally a government sponsored network project. It's overreaching, it's wrong, and it's illegal according to the earlier article I posted. And we've got too many ignorant people involved in the approval process who may believe Pai's unsupportable position.

Kurt Russell

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2017, 04:30:38 AM »

Because any time the citizenry are dealing with regulatory capture, it's government that faces away from the public it's supposed to be serving. This is about setting up a completely anti-competitive environment, including having the government saying they can prevent States from enacting their own requirements for net neutrality.

So within this scenario, when a bunch of hobbyists decide they want a better internet and set up some grassroots wireless internet provider that provides completely neutral access, how does this fit into an anti-competitive environment? It's not that hard to set up an ISP if you are technically competent. There are many more small to tiny ISPs in existence than you realise.

If people care enough about a neutral internet, they'll be willing to pay for it and providers will appear to fill the niche. If people don't, then the lack of net neutrality isn't a major issue. Don't forget that the internet originally sprung up independently of the big telcos. This could happen again.
woke

shosta

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2017, 04:47:02 AM »
The internet is not a well. You do not drill into the ground and set up a mom and pop internet shop. Everything has to go through the upper tiers of the internet by sheer necessity of connectivity through peering agreements and they'll be subject to the same pricing other customers have to pay. So either they'll bite into a big loss trying to offer net neutral pricing or just end up with a more expensive product, and what they come up with probably won't be better than a package offered by EvilCorp. Although I'm going to side with  benji and speculate that all of this requires a level of macroscopic competence that I've never seen from an ISP.
每天生气

agrajag

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2017, 04:49:21 AM »
how will this affect my porn consumption

Brehvolution

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2017, 10:22:23 AM »
Let's just see how telcos behaved before Net Neutrality:
https://wccftech.com/net-neutrality-abuses-timeline/

Quote
2005 – North Carolina ISP Madison River Communications blocked VoIP service Vonage.

2005 – Comcast blocked or severely delayed traffic using the BitTorrent file-sharing protocol. (The company even had the guts to deny this for months until evidence was presented by the Associated Press.)

2007 – AT&T censored Pearl Jam because lead singer criticized President Bush.

2007 to 2009 – AT&T forced Apple to block Skype because it didn’t like the competition. At the time, the carrier had exclusive rights to sell the iPhone and even then the net neutrality advocates were pushing the government to protect online consumers, over 5 years before these rules were actually passed.

2009 – Google Voice app faced similar issues from ISPs, including AT&T on iPhone.

2010 – Windstream Communications, a DSL provider, started hijacking search results made using Google toolbar. It consistently redirected users to Windstream’s own search engine and results.

2011 – MetroPCS, one of the top-five wireless carriers at the time, announced plans to block streaming services over its 4G network from everyone except YouTube.

2011 to 2013 – AT&T, T-Mobile and Verizon blocked Google Wallet in favor of Isis, a mobile payment system in which all three had shares. Verizon even asked Google to not include its payment app in its Nexus devices.

2012 – AT&T blocked FaceTime; again because the company didn’t like the competition.

2012 – Verizon started blocking people from using tethering apps on their phones that enabled consumers to avoid the company’s $20 tethering fee.

2014 – AT&T announced a new “sponsored data” scheme, offering content creators a way to buy their way around the data caps that AT&T imposes on its subscribers.

2014 – Netflix started paying Verizon and Comcast to “improve streaming service for consumers.”

2014 – T-Mobile was accused of using data caps to manipulate online competition.

©ZH

Joe Molotov

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2017, 10:23:32 AM »
how will this affect my porn consumption

Bird Nipples to be banned.
©@©™

chronovore

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2017, 10:29:19 AM »

Because any time the citizenry are dealing with regulatory capture, it's government that faces away from the public it's supposed to be serving. This is about setting up a completely anti-competitive environment, including having the government saying they can prevent States from enacting their own requirements for net neutrality.

So within this scenario, when a bunch of hobbyists decide they want a better internet and set up some grassroots wireless internet provider that provides completely neutral access, how does this fit into an anti-competitive environment? It's not that hard to set up an ISP if you are technically competent. There are many more small to tiny ISPs in existence than you realise.

If people care enough about a neutral internet, they'll be willing to pay for it and providers will appear to fill the niche. If people don't, then the lack of net neutrality isn't a major issue. Don't forget that the internet originally sprung up independently of the big telcos. This could happen again.

Are you residing in the UK or Canada? I'm asking because both those countries are more committed to a free internet — or at least seem in less danger of the regulatory capture I'd mentioned.

What I was saying is that, with lobbying as it is, and Pai whoring our assholes out to whomever wants to ream them next, we're looking at fewer chances to ever see those startups, those independent businesses again. The big telcos control the infrastructure we paid them with our taxes to make, and now that they've taken the castle, they're trying to raise the drawbridge behind them.

agrajag

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2017, 10:38:30 AM »
free the (bird) nipple


Huff

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2017, 08:35:24 PM »
Time to start building up my porn collection while you still can
dur

chronovore

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2017, 08:38:15 PM »
Why would I build up your porn collection for you? That's a very personal affair.

thisismyusername

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2017, 08:42:15 PM »
I'm entirely comfortable with this. Let net neutrality die. Then give us our tiny ISPs back from the days where a local ISP had a customer base in the thousands rather than the tens of millions. We'll have a choice and we can pay for a better, neutral, even potentially more unregulated internet if we choose to do so. The market will decide.

As much as I want Tiny ISP's back: That'll never happen. The infrastructure and laws are not simply there. Even Google and/or city-ran ISP's run into roadblocks.

It's kinda funny that I'm ending Halt and Catch Fire right as Net Neutrality is pretty much gonna die. The rise of computing and the Internet (70-80-90)'s compared to now (00-10's) is funny. The internet was a wild west show (last episode I watched Yahoo "beats" the fictional search index/portal [that is a copy of Yahoo, funny enough in terms of the relaunch look] "to the punch" on consumer acceptance) and that's never coming back. I totally miss those days and years when computing was a "magic box" (it still is, but most consumers accept it as "eh, something I use") thing.

I guess what I'm saying is: Fuck the FCC (and repeal-ers) and the lawmakers for killing something magical.

Nola

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2017, 08:56:01 PM »

So within this scenario, when a bunch of hobbyists decide they want a better internet and set up some grassroots wireless internet provider that provides completely neutral access, how does this fit into an anti-competitive environment? It's not that hard to set up an ISP if you are technically competent. There are many more small to tiny ISPs in existence than you realise.

If people care enough about a neutral internet, they'll be willing to pay for it and providers will appear to fill the niche. If people don't, then the lack of net neutrality isn't a major issue. Don't forget that the internet originally sprung up independently of the big telcos. This could happen again.

This reads like 17 year old libertarian fantasy fiction.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2017, 09:10:04 PM »
I'm entirely comfortable with this. Let net neutrality die. Then give us our tiny ISPs back from the days where a local ISP had a customer base in the thousands rather than the tens of millions. We'll have a choice and we can pay for a better, neutral, even potentially more unregulated internet if we choose to do so. The market will decide.

As much as I want Tiny ISP's back: That'll never happen. The infrastructure and laws are not simply there. Even Google and/or city-ran ISP's run into roadblocks.



Its been my experience discussing this here and there that there is just a group(thankfully fairly small) of people, typically a quarter of Trump voters and book jacket libertarians, that can not seem to grasp how the combination of natural monopoly and regulatory capture requires a change in the calculus of regulation.



gfm793

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2017, 10:08:13 AM »
Honest question because this has been a sticking point for me, what about data that in order to maximize usability SHOULD be treated differently? VoIP and video chat for example requires relatively low bandwidth, but constant throughput to keep conversations running smoothly, gaming requires fast communication, but generally needs little data transfer. Video streaming needs a lot of bandwidth, but but doesn't need that stable a connection, as a good buffer can allow for a temprary drop in speed. Bit Torrents eat up as much bandwidth as they can, but shouldn't likely take priority over other, more time sensitive data.

So why should all of these be treated the same? Especially on lower bandwidth connections it seems like using QoL to maximize the efficiency of the bandwidth available should be key. And to do that you would need to know the type of data going across your network, and have some control over it.

Net Neutrality, by my understanding would make doing that illegal. Or am I missing something? I definitely could be.

Then there is the stuff like not allowing companies like T-mobile to let certain popular services not count against their bandwidth limits. I use their unlimited Youtube a LOT, and I also use their unlimited access to my favorite audio services a lot as well. I think its great that they provide that option. But I've seen them attacked for offering a service that I find extremely consumer friendly.

Nola

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2017, 01:50:55 PM »
I think the flaw is assuming that natural monopolies that in many regions of the country are the only game in town for people are incentivized toward maximizing consumer usability, not what they had progressively been evidenced to have been doing, which is use their capacity as gatekeeper to rent seek.

In terms of consumer exclusionary deals, yeah, it’s nice if you are a specific type of user, but think of how a market like the internet drastically changes with the proliferation of data exception deals and fast and slow lane determinations based on content/ISP deals. We already have a very concentrated cell phone and ISP market, which some recent international studies have shown leads to higher consumer prices and lower innovation. Which makes sense. But think of a more concerning scenario, where Microsoft signs an exclusionary deal with Comcast to get their Live free, paid for by raising Xbox Live gold. PlayStation is worried because now they will struggle in that region so they sign a similar deal with Cox and Verizon. Raising their rates as well. You live in a natural monopoly region that only has a deal with Live, even though you like PlayStation, in a home with no viable alternative(like half the country has), so you pay for over priced internet access because of the natural monopoly and now pay more for your Live subscription to pay for the rent-seeking tactics of the ISP.

From an even larger perspective that sort of arrangement kills the ability for start ups to compete with established market leaders. Netflix and Google can afford to pay off Comcast, can it’s future competitor? Unlikely.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 01:58:04 PM by Nola »

gfm793

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2017, 11:30:59 PM »
Right but would their future competition be able to deal with the increased regulatory burden required to enter the market? Generally speaking, regulations tend to advantage large companies that are already entrenched in a market. The monopolies that currently exist in many markets are due to favoritism on a governmental level, where new entrants to a market are charged exorbitant prices to use local underground and pole real estate.

And shouldn't certain types of users be able to pick the plans that suit their needs best?

And have we had a situation where an up and coming service was unable to compete against say a Youtube, or a Netflix due to predatory bandwidth pricing? I look around and haven't seen any evidence of this so far.

Rufus

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2017, 12:13:30 AM »
Right but would their future competition be able to deal with the increased regulatory burden required to enter the market? Generally speaking, regulations tend to advantage large companies that are already entrenched in a market. The monopolies that currently exist in many markets are due to favoritism on a governmental level, where new entrants to a market are charged exorbitant prices to use local underground and pole real estate.
What regulatory burden does adhering to net neutrality incur?

And shouldn't certain types of users be able to pick the plans that suit their needs best?
They are, provided they're not stuck in a local monopoly.

And have we had a situation where an up and coming service was unable to compete against say a Youtube, or a Netflix due to predatory bandwidth pricing? I look around and haven't seen any evidence of this so far.
Best to wait until they're successful, then squeeze them.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/fcc-gets-comcast-verizon-to-reveal-netflixs-paid-peering-deals/

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2017, 03:43:08 AM »
In most every location in the United States, municipalities have granted local monopolies to a single cable provider, etc.

Where I live now I have Comcast or no cable. Five years ago I could have Charter or no cable. Not because there aren't other providers nearby, in fact five years ago I could have crossed the street and gotten a different, even worse, cable provider. But again, only them or no cable.

DSL is a similar situation, so is fiber.

The mobile providers rely on the use of so much piggybacking that they effectively undid their coverage domination areas and allowed THE MEXICANS AND GERMANS to rush in and steal a huge marketshare. Especially through prepaid plans.

gfm793

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2017, 07:47:15 AM »
In most every location in the United States, municipalities have granted local monopolies to a single cable provider, etc.

Where I live now I have Comcast or no cable. Five years ago I could have Charter or no cable. Not because there aren't other providers nearby, in fact five years ago I could have crossed the street and gotten a different, even worse, cable provider. But again, only them or no cable.

DSL is a similar situation, so is fiber.

The mobile providers rely on the use of so much piggybacking that they effectively undid their coverage domination areas and allowed THE MEXICANS AND GERMANS to rush in and steal a huge marketshare. Especially through prepaid plans.

And I would argue that the government granted de facto monopolies are the problem here. The collusion between local and state (mainly local) governments to give preferential treatement to certain companies for certain areas allows these companies the ability to do whatever the hell they want in most non-urban centers. The costs that municipalities throw on to anyone else looking to enter a particular market are so stifling that all but the largest companies simply cannot compete, and even large companies have to think long and hard as to whether or not the costs of say laying fiber (already expensive on its own, but made significantly more so due to kickback schemes.) are worth it. It's no coincidence that the first places that got Google Fiber were the ones that got rid of the bulk of the overhead when Google came a knocking.

The federal government itself also discourages competition between cable companies because bureaucrats are loathe to allow companies to buy out their own competition, especially in the same field.

Rufus

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2017, 11:22:22 AM »
And I would argue that the government granted de facto monopolies are the problem here. The collusion between local and state (mainly local) governments to give preferential treatement to certain companies for certain areas allows these companies the ability to do whatever the hell they want in most non-urban centers.
So does market share. Both are a problem. How is it solved by repealing net neutrality?

The federal government itself also discourages competition between cable companies because bureaucrats are loathe to allow companies to buy out their own competition, especially in the same field.
Monopolies bad, consolidation good? I'm afraid I don't follow.


gfm793

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2017, 02:08:44 PM »
And I would argue that the government granted de facto monopolies are the problem here. The collusion between local and state (mainly local) governments to give preferential treatement to certain companies for certain areas allows these companies the ability to do whatever the hell they want in most non-urban centers.
So does market share. Both are a problem. How is it solved by repealing net neutrality?

The federal government itself also discourages competition between cable companies because bureaucrats are loathe to allow companies to buy out their own competition, especially in the same field.
Monopolies bad, consolidation good? I'm afraid I don't follow.

Consolidation doesn't equal monopoly. I don't see how that's a question?

As to the previous, market share in and of itself isn't an issue because market share is often unstable especially in environments where a disruptive tech can change everything. I remember the days when no one could see a future that didn't have AOL as a major player especially after it bought out Netscape and CompuServe, or where Internet Explorer wasn't going to be the thing that killed browser innovation because no company could ever touch Microsoft. IBM All of these had what was considered unassailable market share, and all of them lost it. It was widely regarded that the antitrust suit that was brought against Microsoft was pointless at the end of the day because their market share dropped due to competition, naturally.

Now I do agree that ISPs are different. They are essentially coercive monopolies due to governmental interference that gives them a lock on particular municipalities. Even so, cable companies are feeling the pinch due to competition from services like AT&T U-verse on both the ISP and TV Sides, and both of those face competition from IPTV services as well. In 10-20 years the landscape will probably be unrecognizable again.

Nola

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2017, 02:52:01 PM »
Right but would their future competition be able to deal with the increased regulatory burden required to enter the market? Generally speaking, regulations tend to advantage large companies that are already entrenched in a market. The monopolies that currently exist in many markets are due to favoritism on a governmental level, where new entrants to a market are charged exorbitant prices to use local underground and pole real estate.

And shouldn't certain types of users be able to pick the plans that suit their needs best?

And have we had a situation where an up and coming service was unable to compete against say a Youtube, or a Netflix due to predatory bandwidth pricing? I look around and haven't seen any evidence of this so far.



I used the word natural monopoly for a specific reason. Because we shouldn't be thinking about ISP's and cable companies like the market for shoes or fast casual burger joints. They are much closer to the phone companies of old or the basic utility companies of today.

The burden to entering the market as a major ISP/cable competitor is enormously expensive. You can see the evidence of this looking at the infrastructure costs of municipal broadband investments. Which can range in cost from a few 100 million dollars to 700 million plus depending on the size and scope of the project. All on top of expensive ongoing operating expenses. An investment that leaves any start up in a really big financial deficit with a business model that will require long attrition and major marketshare over time before ever breaking even. That gives the companies that are first to market an incredible advantage. On the consumer end you are anchored to whatever infrastructure is available to you. If your energy company starts to gouge you, the vast majority of people don't have the ability to move their house to another county. Likewise, when half of consumers have one or fewer choices for definition high-speed broadband service in their home, the normal dynamics that make a market work break down similarily.

Heck, as a side note, a good portion of the time they are subsidized heavily to begin with, which itself is another reason we should not be operating on logic that assumes this market is or can function and be treated like a normal highly competitive market.

I do agree with you that a big problem comes from the regulatory capture, but there isn't all that much evidence to me that eliminating all of it would be enough to mitigate the potential need for net neutrality regulation. Which would rely upon the assumption that in the absence of the regulatory capture issue, that a highly competitive marketplace with strong information symmetry would emerge. In fact there is good evidence that wouldn't happen based on states that are not that heavily captured but still have similar choice scarcity.

Frankly one of the best arguments I have seen involves doing a bit of what England has done, Where law requires the pipes and poles to be shared by anyone that wants to enter the market, and if a start up wants to tap into existing infrastructure they can pay a fee to the major company to do so(with oversight). Drastically reducing the biggest barrier to entry. While eliminating the regulatory capture to specifically allow more growth in municipal broadband and the like. However, in a more competitive marketplace like that, with England as the model, infrastructure remains subsidized and net neutrality still seen as an important regulatory necessity.

But all that dances round the core question here, what do we do in the present situation? Maybe your utopic ideal you hope is one day achieved would eliminate the need for net neutrality, but we have to make political decisions based on the reality of the present. Not around our idealistic hopes for the future. And the reality of the present is you have a highly consolidated market, where most enjoy very extensive subsidized natural monopoly arrangements and large regulatory capture, that have in recent times shown themselves willing to leverage that position in harmful ways. At the present time, net neutrality has shown to be the best pragmatic tool at avoiding a particular and worrisome type of potential harm arising from that. Following that I am 100% on board with trying to tear down the regulatory capture at the state and local level as a means to improve the market. Maybe after that is achieved the issue of Net Neutrality can be revisited. As is it comes off very cart before the horse.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 03:18:20 PM by Nola »

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2017, 01:58:19 AM »
I want to point this out because you mentioned telephone companies of old, but after Bell's patent expired there were thousands of telephone companies formed in the wake. Before they had a chance to figure out their own method of interconnecting their networks, AT&T acquired approval from the federal government to eliminate them in favor of AT&T's network in exchange for the federal government not bringing an antitrust case against AT&T.

Then after the first World War, AT&T was formally given a government protected monopoly by Congress: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_Graham_Act
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citing that "there is nothing to be gained by local competition in the telephone industry."
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Between 1921 and 1934, the ICC approved 271 of the 274 purchase requests of AT&T.

I should of course disclose that I'm not convinced by the argument that public utilities are natural monopolies either.

To my above questioning of ISP's capabilities of doing what's feared, I should add that I also question the FCC's ability to enforce net neutrality as well. The FCC didn't even fine Comcast, basically asked them merely to disclose practices and their order was still thrown out by the Court of Appeals. They tossed the core of the case against Verizon too.

Nola

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2017, 11:58:53 AM »
I want to point this out because you mentioned telephone companies of old, but after Bell's patent expired there were thousands of telephone companies formed in the wake. Before they had a chance to figure out their own method of interconnecting their networks, AT&T acquired approval from the federal government to eliminate them in favor of AT&T's network in exchange for the federal government not bringing an antitrust case against AT&T.

Then after the first World War, AT&T was formally given a government protected monopoly by Congress: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_Graham_Act
Quote
citing that "there is nothing to be gained by local competition in the telephone industry."
Quote
Between 1921 and 1934, the ICC approved 271 of the 274 purchase requests of AT&T.

I should of course disclose that I'm not convinced by the argument that public utilities are natural monopolies either.

To my above questioning of ISP's capabilities of doing what's feared, I should add that I also question the FCC's ability to enforce net neutrality as well. The FCC didn't even fine Comcast, basically asked them merely to disclose practices and their order was still thrown out by the Court of Appeals. They tossed the core of the case against Verizon too.

I don’t think anyone that is familiar with the topic believes the FCC is the ideal enforcement mechanism for this issue, but given the circumstances it was the best we had available at the time, and given the circumstances of today, preserving that remains the best option in the present. As imperfect as you illustrate it to be. It’s abscence certainly isn’t going to make what you pointed out any better.

As to natural monopoly, what specifically do you take issue with? Literally by definition they(and public utilities) would categorically fit the bill.

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A natural monopoly is a monopoly in an industry in which high infrastructural costs and other barriers to entry relative to the size of the market give the largest supplier in an industry, often the first supplier in a market, an overwhelming advantage over potential competitors. This frequently occurs in industries where capital costs predominate, creating economies of scale that are large in relation to the size of the market; examples include public utilities such as water services and electricity


Natural monopoly is not to say no competitors exist, as you could theoretically argue that you don’t have to use your local energy company, you can cook by fire, heat your home with heating oil, move into a new home elsewhere, or buy solar panels, but that is not a viable option for many people.

Furthermore, as bad as some of the laws that exist on the books in many states and some cities, many others exist without them, and we see similar levels of competition scarcity amongst them. Which is one of the motivating factors in the proliferation of municipal broadband. Further suggesting that the notion that pulling back on anti-competitive regulatory capture is not the panacea some free market fundamentalists assert it to be. Though on the merits I absolutely support dismantling them. As I already mentioned I would suggest going a step further and following the route of other countries to reduce the barrier to entry costs even further to encourage more competition. Maybe under that circumstance the necessity of net neutrality laws could be revisited. But as is I am not hearing a convincing case for their abandonment in the present. Certainly not by using examples of violations that were inadequately punished. If anything, that only strengthens the need for them presently.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 12:21:22 PM by Nola »

chronovore

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2017, 07:46:47 PM »
My perspective is that if the government paid for the creation of the infrastructure, even in part, there is a strong obligation to the taxpayers who funded it to represent their investment.

Not: "Okay, thanks for building that for us. Now it's yours."

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2017, 01:30:46 AM »
My perspective is that if the government paid for the creation of the infrastructure, even in part, there is a strong obligation to the taxpayers who funded it to represent their investment.

Not: "Okay, thanks for building that for us. Now it's yours."
This would include literally everything in history. Past, present and future.

And "representing the taxpayers investment" is what the FCC is doing, always. How dare you attack America's proud strong democracy. :usacry

As to natural monopoly, what specifically do you take issue with? Literally by definition they(and public utilities) would categorically fit the bill.

Quote
A natural monopoly is a monopoly in an industry in which high infrastructural costs and other barriers to entry relative to the size of the market give the largest supplier in an industry, often the first supplier in a market, an overwhelming advantage over potential competitors. This frequently occurs in industries where capital costs predominate, creating economies of scale that are large in relation to the size of the market; examples include public utilities such as water services and electricity


Natural monopoly is not to say no competitors exist, as you could theoretically argue that you don’t have to use your local energy company, you can cook by fire, heat your home with heating oil, move into a new home elsewhere, or buy solar panels, but that is not a viable option for many people.
Except I'm disputing the basics of the notion and concept. Even in their current state public utilities are often not even local monopolies other than entrenchment by regulatory fiat. I can't buy electricity from other companies for the same reason I can't buy cable services from other companies. Let alone electricity that is specifically produced by a specific method by said company.

I can pull up the same history for "public utilities" that I did for phone companies. (Although it was done at the state level and remains mostly so.)

This circular definition and concept would allow for the idea that AT&T was a natural monopoly in the US and remains so including in broadband connections. Much of it has obviously been upgraded during the period of the split up and reassemblage of the Baby Bells into global conglomerates, but DSL, the most popular form of broadband provider, operates (or did depending on where you live) on the standard pre-existing telephone lines and copper that AT&T installed throughout the 20th Century in the unused frequencies telephones rely on.

Interestingly, Enron's entire scheme and the rolling blackouts it caused actually relied on this kind of patchwork regulatory system which created local monopolies for them to use the prices against each other when California altered its regulations to require lowest prices for consumer providers including versus out of state companies while also outlawing those companies from actually owning the power required which remained under a different regulatory arm.

I never claim to have answers or utopian plans because I'm not generally interested in becoming a central planner, but I'll admit that a central pool fund which constructs and maintains infrastructure (but doesn't provide services) that all providers pay an entrance fee to for access sounds like the best "out" available, especially in the case of cable and fiber optics to the home. Funny enough, this was actually being proposed by the industry itself when broadband expansion looked too expensive in the late 1990s/early 2000s, then mobile phones completely shredded up and disrupted the whole equation. And as I noted, the mobile industry has actually stumbled into a form of this.

Since we're talking about communications infrastructure, this is just a benji digression not truly related to above, one of the things I've been quite interested in since 2008 is what the trading exchanges have been doing producing their own private "secret infrastructure" between Chicago and New Jersey, the whole thing is pretty fascinating. And semi-nuts in how we're already working for the machines demands as humans can't perceive the time differences these are intended to shave. :hans1

Nola

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2017, 03:32:17 AM »
Quote
Except I'm disputing the basics of the notion and concept. Even in their current state public utilities are often not even local monopolies other than entrenchment by regulatory fiat. I can't buy electricity from other companies for the same reason I can't buy cable services from other companies. Let alone electricity that is specifically produced by a specific method by said company. 


We can call markets where the barriers to entry and capital costs are exceptionally high, where a very high market-share is often required to be profitable, and the first market leader enjoys an extremely high cost advantage, whatever we want. For me, the term I was educated with was natural monopolies. Which always seemed like a good short hand for me(which is basically what the term was coined to describe). However, I don't think I quite follow how someone could question the validity of such a market concept? Surely we recognize that there are markets that exist that carry those traits? That for instance, building extensive infrastructure to deliver something like electricity, sanitation, and cable/fiber internet to consumers costs a pretty large sum of money? Which requires a large sum of money to break even and create a return on investment?

As a Benji type aside to give an example, one of the reasons nuclear technology is much less viable than its niche proponents argue, aside from the "not in my backyard" issue, is that the capital costs are insanely high and to gain a profitable ROI takes a long time, often decades, so the opportunity costs make it a less desirable investment for potential financiers.

Take away every barrier and regulation you want, and are you honestly convinced that enough entrepreneurs are going to be able to come along in every market and have the capital and attrition capability to compete with the established market leader? Like with electricity, cable, water, or gas?  I haven't personally seen any truly convincing evidence to suggest that, and in lieu of convincing evidence, I think when you take the unique market dynamics, the essential services they provide, and the often heavy reliance on public money, you have to think about the way you regulate them much differently. On one swing of the pendulum, regulatory capture like you and others mention is highly problematic and exacerbates issues often inherent to the market, on the other swing, the unique market dynamics and crucial function to society these markets operate in requires more regulatory oversight than other markets would command.

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2017, 05:14:50 AM »
This is a bit of an extended digression on a point I merely wanted to mention to try and lift any confusion that might arise from my seemingly contradictory twin skepticisms especially for those who have joined us in the recent times and are unfamiliar with my peculiarities.
Take away every barrier and regulation you want, and are you honestly convinced that enough entrepreneurs are going to be able to come along in every market and have the capital and attrition capability to compete with the established market leader? Like with electricity, cable, water, or gas?
Why would it matter if they do or not? We currently operate under the insane notion that no one should even be allowed to compete with an established monopoly provider in markets where one has been established by fiat. They obviously would currently hold a monopoly share of the market when it was freed and thus significant advantage going forward, but not one placed there for any of the "natural" reasons you outlined. As such, I consider it much like the term "market failure" to be a post-hoc justification for establishing a monopoly based on unjustified premises.

There are over 3000 electric utility companies in the United States, 2/3rds of those are straight publicly owned. I find it a complete mockery of the term "monopoly" (let alone "natural") to believe there are 3000 separate natural electricity monopolies in the United States, especially when 2000+ of the utilities are distribution companies and 80% of the generation companies are privately owned. (And if you took out the TVA and nuclear...)

In parts of the Dallas area you can choose your electric service retailer, even as a residential customer. (In theory it's legal in all of Texas except that the incumbent utility has to allow it, only the one that held much of Dallas has done so in the 15 years it's been legal. I assume to celebrate the people abolishing most all of the lingering dry neighborhoods over that span.)

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However, I don't think I quite follow how someone could question the validity of such a market concept? Surely we recognize that there are markets that exist that carry those traits? That for instance, building extensive infrastructure to deliver something like electricity, sanitation, and cable/fiber internet to consumers costs a pretty large sum of money? Which requires a large sum of money to break even and create a return on investment?
This is every future market segment that may come to exist. If natural monopolies exist and can self-sustain, why are there no examples of them historically? (Even just after The Two Revolutions to make things both post-Smith and probably easier to trace on Google.)

I suppose the Georgists might have identified one. But that probably depends on where you stand.

Literally.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
See what I did. Literally stand. Georgists. Aww you guys are the best forum buddies a guy can have.
[close]

Mandark

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2017, 06:37:43 AM »
I find it a complete mockery of the term "monopoly" (let alone "natural") to believe there are 3000 separate natural electricity monopolies in the United States
You should've listed the number of electricity companies in the world to really drive the point home.

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2017, 06:49:56 AM »
I assumed most nations would have probably had nationally focused energy companies at least by type for most of the post-war era. Heck, regional/multi-national in many places like Yurop*. I was surprised at how little consolidation has been forced on municipalities.

*Except the Germans. :thinking

MMaRsu

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2017, 10:28:08 AM »
What is a net neutrality
What

benjipwns

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Re: If the FCC kills Net Neutrality, will your ISP let you visit TheBore.com?
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2017, 02:36:09 PM »
I've always thought it's a kinda bad name, not that I have a better one. But something like "all internet content is equally treated (or...treated NEUTRALLY) in its delivery to the end user to the best of the ability of the ISP provider" which the Germans have a word for, which was actually first used in 1846, true story.