Author Topic: The Anti-Anime "Left" is Garbage and Here's Why(Don't Let Alt-right Claim Anime)  (Read 956 times)

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213372bu

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Anti-Anime: a dismissal of anime and its related communities and aesthetics characterized by a belief in anime’s supposed “backwardness” or “weirdness” relative to western media.

Our enemies certainly know what their relation to this media must be. Let it not be said that they understand the works they consume, a mere glance at the anime right should put that thought right out of your head, but they know that culture is a battleground, and are preparing for another battle. AnimeGate is nigh-inevitable at this point, it seems likely to happen in the next year, and with conflicts over Goblin Slayer, Shield Hero, and Zombieland Saga scarcely banished from our collective memories, it appears that this will be a fight against the “Western anime industry” of Crunchyroll and Anime News Network, while a number of unfortunate suspects sit by, ready to lead the fight and, if they’re lucky, to make a profit from doing so. This obviously their actual aim, let’s be clear, they saw how GamerGate worked out for those involved and they wanted. Wait, those guys ended up nowhere? Maybe these new people should try something else. Regardless, while this coming AnimeGate may end up less effective than ComicGate — and that would be saying something — it must be strictly opposed by the left, after all, GamerGate did play a big role in radicalizing many Extremely Online people into outright fascists, though of course, we needn’t and shouldn’t ally with the companies involved either, only the unfortunate people caught in the crossfire.

So, let me be clear: for as much as the right ignores reality in acting as if Japan is a safe-haven, free of the SJW scourge, my attentions here are turned towards many members of the left. By accepting that Japanese works are necessarily ‘weird’ and ‘backwards’ due to their supposed lack of struggle, they end up infantilizing and depoliticizing an entire nation that is, like any other, political on all fronts, and that ain’t the tea, sis.

Given that it is a real phenomenon in this very site to trash anime as a whole and to trash those sporting anime avatars (which erases, for instance, lots of trans lgbtq+ people sporting anime avatars) I feel like this video feels at home here.

This video talks about Orientalism, the brand of Orientalism that a lot of "progressives" partake in and how this can be both damaging and contribute to pushing the "Nihonjinron" image that japanese nationalists are pushing.

It of course acknowledges that anime isn't representative of Japanese culture as a whole and it also acknowledges that Japan is behind in many issues compared to the west, but the video criticizes how a lot of people ultimately homogenizes Japan which has result of erasing the voices of those struggling and those that are in opposition of the oppression in Japan.

Cindi Mayweather

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benjipwns

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There is a study by Joanna Harper on transgender athletes' performance versus cisgender athletes' performance that was published in the Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities in 2015. This was the first-ever-study of transgender athletes, according to the Washington Post. The study showed that as testosterone levels approach female norms, trans women experience a decrease in muscle mass, bone density and other physical characteristics.

Furthermore, the IOC has already set the standard for guidelines on transgender athletes:
In 2015, IOC invited Harper to attend its Consensus Meeting on Sex Reassignment and Hyperandrogenism held in Lausanne, Switzerland. After 3 days, the panel of scientists and physicians converged on revised rules for transgender competitors, including at least 1 year of hormone replacement therapy for female competitors, rather than the 2 years previously required. That change was a nod to Harper's personal transition experience and to research published in 2004 in the European Journal of Endocrinology showing that the testosterone levels—and therefore performance—of 19 transgender women stabilized after 12 months of hormone therapy. The revised IOC policy also lifted the requirement for sex reassignment surgery. That decision was a long time coming, Harper says. "What your genitals are doesn't make a difference."
You can read the full study for yourself here. (Warning: this does open a PDF document!)

You can also read the story about Joanna Harper and the research involved in Science Magazine.

There is also additional studies to collaborate the original study. As mentioned in this article in Cosmos Magazine:
...a Dutch study in the European Journal of Endocrinology, which found that within a year after gender-reassignment surgery, trans women had testosterone and haemoglobin levels no higher than their female-born compatriots. That’s important because high testosterone is associated with masculine levels of muscle mass and strength, while high haemoglobin is associated with greater aerobic capacity and therefore speed.
You can read the full study for yourself here. (Warning: this does open a PDF document!)

Another study, called Sport and Transgender People: A Systematic Review of the Literature Relating to Sport Participation and Competitive Sport Policies, that was published in 2017 came to the same exact conclusion as these two others:

Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised.
You can read the full study for yourself here.

Based on the established criteria by the International Olympics Committee, their panel of expert scientists and physicians, and the study by Joanna Harper, and the collaborating studies, Resetera policy is that anyone concern posting about genetic advantages by transgender women in competitive sports or claiming transgender women have genetic advantages will be treated as transphobia and/or spreading misinformation on a sensitive issue and moderated appropriately. We have no interest in allowing ignorance to thrive in these threads, nor do we wish to place an undue burden on our transgender community to educate people in threads like these. This policy will be enforced from this post onward and in any future threads or posts on this subject.

If you have questions on this modpost or policy, please contact one of our mod captains (B-Dubs, Mist, Hecht) directly. Thanks.

Thread is now open for posting.
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Friends and expats,

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I felt the Azusa thumbnail is a give away of being a troll...r

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This is the best thread in years.
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shosta

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SO I just got back from Playmates in south miami and it inspired this trend.

I'm a broke ass otherfucker but these girls took ke to the bank for fucking 1,000+ dollars. I cnanot afford that. No way, no how. Cn;t afford it whatsoever. But they had trricks. I thought (and agreed to go) because it would be all big breasted fucking artificial women with childrne and shit I could handle that. No problems. Not interestec

Istead they had like fucking 25, 26 hyear olds with small breasets (25 and 26 is very young to me, being in my mid 30s) and they had tiny breasts and small asses and as a red blooeded Irishman I had no fucking chance whatsoeve against this shit (sorry the nex tcouplle of paragraphs were deleted and I cna't fucking remeber what they said.)

Worst thing is that it's fucking 5.47 (A fucking M) and I have this FIBA AML shit (goodle it) early tomorrow morning) though my boss took me out so I can just lay the fucking blame on him.

I had fucking 5 dances man, 5 cubans and 1 colombian. When you go back to the chamgane room, all bets are off duede. I thought it would just be nuede dances (lap dance is 50 for 2 songs, champagne room is 250 for whatever) but this girl was sucking my dick and giving me lines of coke and shoving my fingers up her pussy and all sorts of shit. I knew going in that I was going to get ripped off but I did NOT get ripped off. No sex in the champagne room is bullshit.

The one trick she pulled was giving me, a drug free guy (but langered with drink) lines of coke and saying I could only touch her if I did them. So I did (big mistake) and they killed my didck. SO when she said 200 for fuck in the chamgpane room, it really turned into me paying 250 (fucking tips) for me to give her head and finger her while my fucking coked up dick stayed uttelrly flaccid. But you know what I loved it because she was so different to the Irish girls ',m used to - holy shit she was hot. I ended up spending 1 grand on her like a fucking moron - imgaine - 1 grand to give someone else head and ginger their twat - but at the time it felt so good (and free idnner and drinks and shit).

Got back to the hotel and the busboy told me I apparently fell into a 'stundent trap for UM students' and got ripped offand shoudl have gotten a high class russian escort. So cikked up as I am i fucking ordered one and (through the busboy) I told him to make sure she;s slim and not busty but I tipped the motherfucker 50 dolllars and then paced the room in an agitated state for the last 45 minutes before decideing I had to post on Era. Did I metnion this the the first time I;ve done coke? Not as itense as I thought just very, very hyper. Insanely dry mouth. Can't sleep for shit. Npw 6.04. And like I said fucking killed my dicik. Motherfucker! I would have been inside the most beatufyiful colombian girl instead of fucking fingering her wtith whiskey dick. Which is wosre when your mediocre hung or slightly worse (inster era/ gaf joke her). Fuck me. I was even asking her to tell me exactly where her g-spot was and all kinds of shit. Fuck me, embarassing. Cringeworthy. Fuck. Idiot. I'm just a poor rural lad, I like a drink but I;m not used to women about when I drink and I',m uugly

What an easy target I mut have been for these girls. Thank god I turned down the 2,000 lesbian show. I'm not that dumb.. I'm so drunk I've almost forgotten what I got for my 8,00 hundred. But my fingers remember. You guys attracitve enough to get it for free - god fucking bless you lad.s God bless you.

Can you comp this shit on expenses? Company account. I can't afford to lose this. Someone in corporate land let me kno wcus I'm fucking broke as shit right now tiwth just the taste of colombian pussy on my finger to show for my fucking expenditure. Fuck me.

Gun range thursdday lasds, let's pretend to be a rebuplican conservative asshole and shoot the shit out of some targets and shit. Stone Hart (?) gun range at miami executive (airport and this time I'll ask for a long gun and fucking really go for it and fucking treat it properly and not shit my fucking pants like the first time when I shot a glock 19 their last year. Fuck - I'm gonna go full stallone and take the biggest gun theu've got. Then go back to playmates and find sweet, sexy Anna and pay whatever it takes.

I love pyssy almost as much as I love Nintendo peace out I need some sleep for this bullshti fucking conference tomorrow I never did concaine until tonight holy shit I can fucking running at 100mph and thought you should know.

Apologies if this is sexitst and shit, I know I pissed people off in the gaming thread about sexism because I like seeing that shit in games (just love me some titty man I;m so sorry) but I promose you I aksed the threee girls at every stage tonight if this shit was cool and they said yes and their face was total boredom - which is better than discomfort I guess? Rock on Era. Rock on you dense motherfckers. I promose you I made sure - even through te cocaine and shit - I promise I treated these girls well tonight despite my first ever experience with cocaine. I've always been pro ex work but I swaer to go d the 1,000 the girl made tonight is ntohing compared to the fucking awesome memories I made (which I record hwer I or I;ll never remember)

Odds on mods locking this threads 12 (fractional)

So should wht I did be legal or no - I have no idea morally - so I just did it.

TVC 15

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The nazis can keep anime.
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benjipwns

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A far-right group in Canada has had its website taken over by gay furry erotica.

The new white nationalist group known as Wolves of Odin, a splinter group from the Europe-based Soldiers of Odin, made the news on January 25 after its members were linked to a confrontation with worshippers outside mosque in Edmonton, Canada.

The incident inspired Edmonton local Brady Grumpelt to get his own back in the best way possible.

Wolves of Odin now promoting gay furry erotica
The activist decided to buy the web domain WolvesOfOdin.ca out from under the group, and give it a brilliant new purpose.

That purpose, apparently, is gay furry erotica.

People searching for the group are now greeted by gay wolf-themed artwork, with scantily clad wolves bearing names like DoggyTreat69, 2pups1cup, and White_Power_Bottom.

Speaking to VICE, Grumpelt said: “I thought to myself, I think I might take this and do something funny with it.

“It took about ten minutes to kinda think it up. I thought, well it is wolves… so that works fairly well.”

All is not lost, however, as Grumpelt is more than happy to the domain go—in exchange for a $10,000 donation to Hate Free Edmonton, which cleans up racist graffiti in the city.

A spokesperson for Hate Free Edmonton told The Star Edmontonthat it appreciates the gesture, but added the gay furry erotica is “decidedly off-brand for us.”

The gay furry erotica was originally more explicit
Speaking to the newspaper, Grumpelt added: “The initial version was a lot more graphic… It’s not the most G-rated site in the world.”

“I just wanted to take it away from somebody that might use it for hate.

“I’ll take whatever power I can away from them and use it for something else.”
"taken over" :thinking
meowr

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OH GOD, I didn't mean to write this wall of text, but I already put too much time into writing this so here goes!

Ok, I finally finished watching the video in the OP. I don't want to be vague, but uh, it's kind of unfocused. I learned some interesting things about the social movements in Japan and how what we'd term LGBTQ issues take conceptually different forms. Like x-gender is the equivalent to non-binary, but seems to have it's own connotations due to differences in the culture it emerged from. So, neat, educational, but entirely too and unfocused. Going by the quotes in the OP I figured the video would center more around the anime community and the potential for an Anime Gate, but it only boomerangs back around to the subject at the end. Mostly the video is about how even well intentioned leftists fall into engaging in Orientalism, as do the right, both of which are damaging and ultimately give power to the right-both the MAGA nerds and Japan's right wing party.

I honestly thing this would have been better as a long form essay and while a transcript is on the site linked in the OP, it doesn't read particularly well. So, interesting stuff, could definitely use some editing.

As for my own thoughts on the subject at hand, I am somewhat divided. As an anime fan I can't blame people who look at anime and write it off for being weird and regressive. While there are some that buck the trend, such as last season's excellent Bloom Into You, the shows that seem to catch on in the western community can often have problematic elements such as sexual harassment, voyeurism, pedophilia, and slavery to name but a few. And I specify in the West because, as others have already pointed out, these shows are basically late night commercials for 30 somthing otaku. They're hardly mainstream in Japan. But anime fandom is one of the elements that has shaped portions of western internet culture, probably stemming from 4chan's influence beginning over a decade ago.

So what's popular these days? According to Crunchyroll last season it was Goblin Slayer. Most streamed new series on Crunchyroll all over the US, parts of Canada, a lot of South America, and Australia. For those who are unfamiliar, much of the controversy surrounds the first episode in which a team of fresh faced adventurers in a vaguely D&D inspried fantasy world are brutally killed and/or raped by goblins which is depicted in graphic detail. There are other issues that crop up as the series goes on such as needing a naked virgin in the same bed as a corpse for the resurrection spell, and goblins using rape victims as human shields. If you're not familiar with the series, at this point you're probably thinking, "What the fuck??? What kind of degenerate anime is this?". Well outside those aforementioned problems it's a mediocre fantasy series about quirky cast of trope laden anime adventurers killing goblins (and sometimes other stuff) or maybe eating some cheese or ice cream. Outside those moments of extremely problematic content it's a middle of the road fantasy adventure.

The problem I see is too many fans (or at least too many vocal fans) outright ignore or try to claim that such content does not exist in the series/isn't that bad/is out of context. It's not. I watched all of Goblin Slayer with my group of anime watching buddies as I'd probably have dropped it otherwise. So here's what I'm putting forward:

1) Criticism of how popular anime handle social issues has merit.
I'm cowardly and I hate calling people out, but I'm going to do it in an oblique and cowardly way regardless to make a point. In this relatively short thread there are already posters trying saying that anime like Shield Hero do not have problematic elements or people pointed them out weren't interested anyway. It's essentially brushing away criticism by saying those raising the issues weren't interested anyway. That they are missing some sort of essential context. But it's important to understand people consume media differently and have different perspectives. For you, personally, maybe the goblin rape in Ep 1 of Goblin Slayer was a minor footnote and the strengths of the series outweigh that momentary edginess. For me it was a spectre that loomed over the entire series, marring my enjoyment and never completely disappeared. For others it may be so instantly revolting that they drop it right there. So basically what I'm saying is, if you're a fan be honest about the show. Don't try to pretend things that actually occured didn't happen. If someone is concerned about those aspects don't downplay them. Which brings me to...

2) Anime communities need to be more open to criticism and individual anime fans need to be less defensive about said criticism.
This issue exists on ERA in the seasonal anime thread and in this very thread. Being critical of something doesn't mean that thing is entirely without merit. It certainly isn't a personal attack on you. As with many nerd communities anime viewers are seen as often social outcasts. Because of that, when these hobbies expand into other demographics (either intentionally or not) fans become defensive because they feel like other people, perhaps those who once mocked them are now able to partake in their hobby while still being cool. If you find yourself feeling that way, remember that it isn't rational. These other people just want to enjoy it same as you. They found a show that they connected with on a personal level. It's just the stupid lizard part of your brain trying to create tribal divisions. But even here where we're generally seen as leftist it's sometimes hard to have a proper discussion. And if it's difficult to have a proper discussion here, it can be near impossible in some other online spaces.

3) Anime communities need more left leaning spaces.
This is brought up in the video, but there need to be more left leaning spaces openly discussing and critiquing anime. A few are mentioned in the video. Anime Feminist has been pretty good for recs and reviews. I'm gonna check out the site mentioned in the OP at length at some later point. We need places to engage in lengthy discussions of these issues without it devolving into shitposting, and hopefully if the leftist anime sphere grows large enough it should shift the nature of anime discourse. But that's probably being a bit too hopeful.

In short, I think part of the solution is anime fans not downplaying problematic aspects found in anime, which leads to better discussion, which improves the outside perception of the anime community. However I don't want to focus too much on the "fix yourselves" aspect as the video in the OP made a valid point that many left leaning, non anime fans unintentionally engage in Orientalism which if you're socially conscious should be something to reflect on.

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pls stop doxxing me

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In terms of animation, does Japan have anything that is equivalent to America's adult prime time animated shows? Shows like F is for Family, Bojack Horseman, The Simpsons, Archer, and others?

I don't follow Japanese culture all that much. But I feel that if America's attitude toward what animation can be were as insular as Japan's, we'd still be stuck in the Hanna Barbara mindset of presentation and story telling.

Akira, Princess Mononoke, and The Cat Returns are probably the full extent of my anime viewing. I've also seen various clips of Sailor Moon and Pokemon but never got into them.

Usually, it was the bad dubbing and recycled plots that kept me from getting into anime stuff in general.

For anyone on Era who has keen insight into the minds of anime dorks, to how deep of an extent are they absorbed in anime, and what factors set them apart from others who watch say... Bob's Burgers or Futurama, but are otherwise immune in that they're fandom is not eclipsing their perception or desire of the reality around them.

I guess what I'm saying is that no one who watches The Simpsons is wishing to be transported to Springfield, and that's the impression I'm getting whenever I read articles like these.
I'm not an expert so maybe somebody with more extensive knowledge will stop by, but in the mean time I'll take a shot at this. Genre and demographic wise anime tends to be broader than American animation. For anime there's a massively greater output with maybe 30-40 shows per season. There's shows aimed at children such as Pokemon, Beyblade, PreCure, etc. Those are also often vehicles for merch. There's shows aimed at the kid to teen crowd like Naruto, Bleach, and My Hero Academia. These have merch too and often exist to push manga/ light novel sales of the original material. Then there's some stuff that's nebulously teen to adult like Cowboy Bebop or One Punch Man. Sometimes these are also vehicles for merch. Honestly demographic categorization is kind of a mess and often a point of contention as even shows like PreCure which is aimed at little girls has a periphery demographic of grown men. Not to mention how demographics can differ between Japanese and fans in other countries. Plenty of grown men like DBZ for instance.

So basically there are shows created to appeal to all different age groups (sometimes multiple at once) and these can be fantasy or sci-fi or steampunk or western or whatever. However largely it's a vehicle for sales of either show related merchandise or the original novel/manga/game. That's why so much anime gets made, because it's basically an advertisement. That and the generally poor salaries animators get paid. Occasionally an animation studio will make a prestige project that's either not based on an existing property or for a source material that's already completed (so advertisement doesn't matter). These are probably the closest things to American prime time animation and they are unfortunately rare. noitaminA is a programming block that was originally supposed to be host to those kinds of shows, but it doesn't seem to have panned out all that well.

On the other side, I'd say that American animation has a few of it's own problems, namely that almost all of it is comedy and demographically it's only for children or it's only for adults. It's more of a binary than a sliding scale. We rarely get action cartoons anymore because they're so expensive compared to comedy and they don't tend to move as much merch (see Young Justice). In the last few years it seems like some western animations have been making strides by using the comedy as kind of a trojan horse to make it onto air, then pivoting to tackle other subject matter. Steven Universe is a kid's show lauded for it's progressive themes and it features a good number of action sequences to boot. Bojack Horseman can get heavy as fuck. My point being that the relatively smaller quantity of American animation, it's focus on comedy, and narrower settings is part of why some people are big on anime.

To address your last point, I think this is an issue of genre as well. No one wants to get transported to Springfield because it's just a comedy. However there are plenty of people who want to be super heroes a la Young Justice or the now very successful Marvel Movies. There are people who want to go on great adventures like in Lord of the Rings. Be part of political machinations like Game of Thrones. And for those series there are people who are really into them. Really into them. In many ways not too dissimilar to anime fans. But because American animation of things in that vein don't really exist they get their kicks from anime. And the wish fulfillment aspect being so prevalent probably plays a role too.

Anyways, that's my thoughts on the subject.

Full disclosure, I've yet to watch the video. It sounds like it's a bit meandering, so when I'm doing something that doesn't take a lot of attention I'll put it on rather than just straight watching it.

It was also brought up that in general anime used to draw a more progressive crowd in the West. This is 100% true. The con circuit, by and large, remains a pretty good bastion of progressive thought. Nothing reaffirmed that in my mind more than being at a jam packed panel with the panelist, prior to actually beginning, off-handedly talking about "the evil cheeto who lives down the street" due to the con being in DC and receiving applause for it... and then the panel itself being about LGBT themes, particular focus on trans and nonbinary themes, in magical girl anime. Leftist anitwitter (which is basically comprised of either congoers and LGBT+ people, or both) even had fun sharing screencaps mocking some alt-right chud who was livetweeting and complaining while going to an anime con, about the various progressive panels like "People of Color in Anime" and the like and whining about LGBT stuff for sale in the artist alley and dealer's room.

I really suggest people who think the anime industry is only mostly pandering garbage with nothing of value to those left-of-center on social values look into the AotY thread linked earlier. Lots of good shows there that fit that criteria.Two are even blatantly pro-LGBT- one featuring a trans girl whose character is treated in a completely non-fetishizing and human, kind manner, her being trans not at all being the focus of her character outside of one episode (though it is hinted at in others); the other starring a lesbian couple written by a (presumably gay) woman.

Like, there's no doubt- there's a very vocal group of incredibly online people with alt-right or even just plain old conservative viewpoints who are anime fans and make that fandom a big part of their identity. It's something we need to tackle. And there's definitely stuff like isekai and self-insert shows that get popular and undeserved spotlight because they appeal to people who don't think critically about the media they consume, and a lot of sexual fanservice exists even outside of those genres. But to pretend both the anime fandom and the industry itself is devoid of progressive ideas or at least being inoffensive to progressive thinking is pretty ignorant and just looking at whatever the new hotness is. By and large the new hotness in any medium isn't going to line up with left-leaning thought.

I also find it astoundingly hypocritical that we're on a gaming forum and a lot of people are missing the point about labeling a medium and those who enjoy it as being inherently loathsome or nonsalvageable. Did crunch and other workplace violations vanish publisher side? Did LGBTphobia and representation issues vanish dev side? Did Gamergate vanish fandom side? I think not.

As Westerners (mostly) there's not a whole lot we can do to change anime from a producing perspective, but, we can certainly work on ousting unsavory elements from our community... which we're definitely trying to do.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 02:01:27 AM by benjipwns »
meowr

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Sure is a lot of delicious word salads up in this thread. :doge
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benjipwns

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I usually avoid anime Youtube like the plague, but I gave this a watch, and I have pretty mixed feelings about it.

The core ideas presented here I mostly agree with. The west does seem to have a problem with viewing Japan as homogeneous, and what he calls "wacky Orientalism" is ever present in discussions of the country. But that's something that isn't really limited to just anime. You see it everywhere, from traditional media, to movies and game shows (which he does mention), and even in pornography. So I don't feel like initially framing this as an anime problem kind of ruins the message. Even if you get all of the left to embrace anime, the "Japan is wacky" stereotype is still going to be there.

Which brings me to my biggest issue with the video. While the author spends a ton of time (more than 40 minutes) talking about the problem, he spends almost 0 time talking about possible solutions. When the most popular Japanese English language newspaper is out there redefining the abhorrent Japanese war crimes such as its slave labor as "people who were recruited to work for Japanese companies before or during the war" it's pretty easy for a casual observer to get the idea that the country is 100% super right wing. And then you also have most mainstream news sources going for "wacky Japan" articles just because it brings them clicks.

The solution, then, should be to offer people alternate news sources that actually show that Japan isn't just that. Clearly, the author has them, as he seems pretty well educated at least in some particular progressive topics, such as LGBT politics and gender equality And yet, he doesn't really bother to offer them up as an example. I would definitely like to know about any blogs or news sites that cover these issues, but none get mentioned. At best, there's a couple of links to news posts in the comments section (why hide them away there? I almost completely missed them, despite them being super important.), but that's it. It feels like this video is aimed 100% exclusively at people who already know and agree with all of the things he is talking about. It is at the same time blaming and belittling people for not being educated about some very specific aspects of Japan, while at the same time offering almost no way for anyone to actually educate themselves.

Maybe I'm just an optimist (this seems to be in short supply when it comes to leftists, for good reasons I guess), but I do believe that actually educating, instead of excluding, people about things is how you get change. And to me the central message of this video just comes across as: "if you don't already know every single thing that I do and agree with it, then you are a terrible person that isn't even worth talking to".

This then continues into the anime specific part. I completely agree that the biggest issue is that anime currently has zero places online where people can actually discuss social issues in it without being called an "SJW with an agenda". And this isn't just super Marxist places either, there's not even anything sort of leftist or progressive out there. There are some blogs I see mentioned from time to time: AniFeminist, this channel, and Vox Artes that is mentioned here. But these are all super small, and mostly laser focused on only one particular topic (LGBT issues). Which is super important, don't get me wrong, but they all seem to ignore tons of other problems that seem to me to be completely inherent to anime.

For example: the toxic work culture, terrible stigmatization of mental illness and mental health professionals, and the rampant sexual assaults and bullying that lead to suicide being the number one cause of death of Japanese children. These are all issues that I think the western Anime fandom needs to actually acknowledge, but get almost universally ignored. Even more than that: when people do bring them up, they just get harassed and insulted.

For a concrete example of how educating people is important: in terms of bullying, I wouldn't even know about how bad it is in Japan if it wasn't for one article in CNN that I just happened to notice by complete chance. Despite the fact that I watch a fuck ton of anime, and that bullying is almost an ever-present topic in most of it. Nobody in the community, not even the progressives/leftists, would ever bring something like this up when discussing these shows. Reading something like that completely changed my perspective on a lot of what I watch. And it's why I think the community 100% needs more news media that isn't afraid to tackle these issues. Because right now, every-time this issue gets brought up in forums, it's always brushed aside by people saying things like "bullying isn't a problem, it's is just kids being kids" or "these kids just need to man up". And this is again maybe just me being an optimist, but I don't think most people on ERA wouldn't say things this abhorrent if they actually knew how bad the problem is.

"Embracing" is just the same thing the right has been doing for a century now - bringing the political discussion right into other spaces. If the left keeps hiding in their towers and being disgusted by anything that isn't pure, it's the left's fault, not the media's fault. And that's why we had the right egemonize the nerd culture, which should've been the perfect place for the left to grow since it strongly resonates with marginalized people. Most "nerds" are victims of toxic masculinity, and patriarchy from higher ups has been pushing out women from the space. Instead, all romantic comedies and sitcoms feature shit tropes where the nerds always get the girl or the guy is rewarded for being a creepy asshole; that's what people actually watch. We're going to pretend that cult shows are the norm, but they're not.
meowr

Oblivion

  • Senior Member
I legitimately can't tell whether the essay length posts in this thread are serious or not.  :doge

benjipwns

  • Senior Member
I legitimately can't tell whether the essay length posts in this thread are serious or not.  :doge

First let me clarify:

- I love playing video games.
- I respect the work that goes into them.
- I respect developers for what they accomplish and the talent they show.
- I respect individual games for the heights they reach within the medium.

But as a whole, I don't respect the medium of video games.

This has been a fairly recent realization. I think it really started to dawn on me when I had to explain to my son why he could only play for a bit each day. I noticed I felt relief whenever he quit on his own, and I felt worry whenever he wanted to play more than the designated time. I realized I didn't feel that way about sports or painting or pretty much any other activity he does besides video games. (And non-learning TV shows.)

So I've been thinking on why, and I think it's down to these basic premises. If you disagree with any of these, I can see why you think I'm in crazy town:

1. I believe a life is best spent seeking fulfillment rather than seeking happiness. I think you gain more happiness as a byproduct of seeking fulfillment than you gain by seeking happiness itself.
2. I think boredom's primary mechanism is to motivate us to accomplish something. Hunt those deer, gather those berries, whatever. Accomplishing something in the real world--especially helping someone--leads to fulfillment.
3. I think video games' primary function is to curb boredom and make us not accomplish anything in the real world.

For example, an RPG's leveling up mechanism simulates the feeling of progression, of accomplishing something. In reality, you are no better a person when your character is level 99. You've in reality accomplished nothing. It satisfies your innate "I need to get something done right now" drive without you actually getting anything done. It's similar to how a diet pill gets rid of the unpleasant feeling of hunger without you actually doing what your hunger is meant to drive you to do: eat.

This doesn't mean I don't think some good can come from games.

There exist some stories about someone connecting with their deceased mom through Animal Crossing, or someone with a disability finding games therapeutic. Good can happen within the medium.

And plenty of people handle video game balance just fine, accomplishing everything they need to and then using video games as a short way to relax at the end of a day. That's great.

But fundamentally, I think the medium as a whole is a diet pill on society, lessening society's motivation to accomplish things. While there are many people who handle video games fine, I think there are many who do not. It's like ice cream: in small quantities, it's not bad for you. But it's almost never good for you.

And yes, there are other entertainment mediums that are similar. But none of them serve you fake-accomplishment pills to the same degree that video games do. And many other hobbies--art, sports, etc.--better you in some way, whether physically or creatively. Many hobbies lead one to create something. Video games are primarily about consumption. While video games have some small benefits (e.g., hand-eye coordination, puzzle-solving skills, Minecraft-esque construction), I think a cost-benefits analysis is far less favorable to video games than to other hobbies.

And yeah, I'm in all likelihood going to continue playing games. But if someone Thanos-snapped video games from existence, I do think the world would be better off for it, in the same way Thanos-snapping ice cream from existence would be better for our society.


TL;DR: As someone who loves games, I've recently come to lose respect for the medium due to its nature. Video games are a consumption hobby that gives us a false feeling of accomplishment. It satiates our boredom/desire to accomplish something without us actually accomplishing anything. Thus, like a diet pill making you eat less by getting rid of hunger, video games get rid of our boredom and cause us to accomplish less than we otherwise would have. I believe this effect, while present in other entertainment, is more pronounced and pernicious in video games.
meowr

Don Rumata

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Get me this thread in audiobook form pls.

BIONIC

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I legitimately can't tell whether the essay length posts in this thread are serious or not.  :doge

First let me clarify:

- I love playing video games.
- I respect the work that goes into them.
- I respect developers for what they accomplish and the talent they show.
- I respect individual games for the heights they reach within the medium.

But as a whole, I don't respect the medium of video games.

This has been a fairly recent realization. I think it really started to dawn on me when I had to explain to my son why he could only play for a bit each day. I noticed I felt relief whenever he quit on his own, and I felt worry whenever he wanted to play more than the designated time. I realized I didn't feel that way about sports or painting or pretty much any other activity he does besides video games. (And non-learning TV shows.)

So I've been thinking on why, and I think it's down to these basic premises. If you disagree with any of these, I can see why you think I'm in crazy town:

1. I believe a life is best spent seeking fulfillment rather than seeking happiness. I think you gain more happiness as a byproduct of seeking fulfillment than you gain by seeking happiness itself.
2. I think boredom's primary mechanism is to motivate us to accomplish something. Hunt those deer, gather those berries, whatever. Accomplishing something in the real world--especially helping someone--leads to fulfillment.
3. I think video games' primary function is to curb boredom and make us not accomplish anything in the real world.

For example, an RPG's leveling up mechanism simulates the feeling of progression, of accomplishing something. In reality, you are no better a person when your character is level 99. You've in reality accomplished nothing. It satisfies your innate "I need to get something done right now" drive without you actually getting anything done. It's similar to how a diet pill gets rid of the unpleasant feeling of hunger without you actually doing what your hunger is meant to drive you to do: eat.

This doesn't mean I don't think some good can come from games.

There exist some stories about someone connecting with their deceased mom through Animal Crossing, or someone with a disability finding games therapeutic. Good can happen within the medium.

And plenty of people handle video game balance just fine, accomplishing everything they need to and then using video games as a short way to relax at the end of a day. That's great.

But fundamentally, I think the medium as a whole is a diet pill on society, lessening society's motivation to accomplish things. While there are many people who handle video games fine, I think there are many who do not. It's like ice cream: in small quantities, it's not bad for you. But it's almost never good for you.

And yes, there are other entertainment mediums that are similar. But none of them serve you fake-accomplishment pills to the same degree that video games do. And many other hobbies--art, sports, etc.--better you in some way, whether physically or creatively. Many hobbies lead one to create something. Video games are primarily about consumption. While video games have some small benefits (e.g., hand-eye coordination, puzzle-solving skills, Minecraft-esque construction), I think a cost-benefits analysis is far less favorable to video games than to other hobbies.

And yeah, I'm in all likelihood going to continue playing games. But if someone Thanos-snapped video games from existence, I do think the world would be better off for it, in the same way Thanos-snapping ice cream from existence would be better for our society.


TL;DR: As someone who loves games, I've recently come to lose respect for the medium due to its nature. Video games are a consumption hobby that gives us a false feeling of accomplishment. It satiates our boredom/desire to accomplish something without us actually accomplishing anything. Thus, like a diet pill making you eat less by getting rid of hunger, video games get rid of our boredom and cause us to accomplish less than we otherwise would have. I believe this effect, while present in other entertainment, is more pronounced and pernicious in video games.

By your logic, we should have been regressing our advancement significantly over the past century or so. Ever since we invented the radio, the movie theatre, the television, and ultimately the personal computer, the internet and various related devices. All of which have dramatically changed the way we are able to mass consume "mindless" entertainment.

But here's the thing. We haven't regressed at all. Quite the opposite in fact, our advancement has been tremendous in spite of all these ultimate distractions in our life.

So then, why? Why is it we can advance and still waste over 100 hours running through the land of Breath of the Wild, for instance? I think the reason is simple, and that is that humans aren't designed to function and focus on only one thing simultaneously. Our brains need to be engaged in various ways, so they can process things and give them their proper place. We can devote an x amount of time at our job, advancing society, but the trade of is that we also need an x amount of time where our brain is not engaged in that same activity. Because that ultimately leads to a shut down. We need to engage with something so that we are not completely one-tracked on a single thing. When has that ever ended up well?

Games and distractions have been around for as long as we can look back in history. We have found games in ancient civilizations, we find in both animals and human species that our offspring plays as a way of learning basic and more advanced functions (like motor skills). Why would video games be excluded from this? I learned not one, but two second languages (English and German) through gaming and television alone. I learned certain problem solving skills from gaming. Despite my actual learning in school at the time going on at the same time. Video games did not negate that, nor did any other outside influence. This does not change later in life. I spend 8 hours at work, learning new things, creating new tools for customers, and that is plenty.

Plus, one big plus of our quick advancement is that humanity now has a time and place for recreation. We don't need to spend the entire day on a field or in the woods to provide our tribe with food and shelter, we have the luxury of enriching our life with entertainment and leisure. Such things should be cherished, not feared
Kcils

Joe Molotov

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benjipwns

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Crunchyroll and Netflix are sitting on production comitties, directly influencing the anime that gets made. The creator of one of the most popular isekai series SAO recently stated that it was western criticism that made him rethink the way he writes female characters and will make an active change to improve them.

My own take is that many viewers are unaware of the underlying messages and themes of the works they are consumimg and then over react to the critical analysis of the issues people have with those themes. When you watch a show where slavery gives the slaves benefits and people want to be the MC's slave, where women you are sexually attracted to actually are "sluts" and they live in a "matriarchy" and that means a false rape accusation will ruin your life and no-one will ever want to be with you, and instead you should get a 10 year old child slave who's interactions with you will cause her to "level up" into an adult body whilst keeping the mind of a child - you have to ask yourself what exactly the author is trying to tell you.

Storytelling is not magic, pulling plot lines from the aether; the author made a clear decision to use these themes and these plotlines in his story. The fact that people can't see what the issue is more troubling than anything else because it is this that allows them to be co-opted by the alt-right. When you have no eye for literary criticism then if you tie your self worth to your enjoyment of flawed media any criticism of that media feels like an attack on you personally. It's hard for someone to say "I accept this show has themes I find abhorrent but I still like it because ..." But it's important that we ALL learn how to do that. I listen to rap music which glorifies some terrible moral standards that I would never live or defend in reality, because I know it is not reality! I can clearly make a distance between my own standards without making an excuse for those in entertainment. I don't think people are bad for liking flawed things, I think people are bad for not accepting the things they like can be flawed because to me if you can't see the clear themes in the media you are consuming - how can you then claim to see it when those same nuances appear in real life?

I hate the fact that so many people associate anime avatars with alt-right nonsense these days, considering that it was precisely because of my exposure to anime and anime-esque games that I moved from being a center/right Catholic to a super left Agnostic.

OG Sega CD Lunar: Eternal Blue taught me the dangers of blind faith in a so-called deity and it's supposed followers.
Evangelion taught me that self-loathing accomplishes nothing, while the opposite problem of an over-inflated ego is just as destructive.
Metal Gear Solid (yeah I considering it anime-esque) taught me more about the dangers of nuclear weapons than school ever did.
Revolutionary Girl Utena completely changed my perspective on the idea of societal gender roles and sexuality.
A particular episode of Cowboy Bebop (the episode where Jet runs into his ex) clued me in to just how toxic the male idea of "taking care of your woman" can really be.
Additionally Cowboy Bebop also taught me how holding onto the past can prevent you from looking forward.
While I don't have a specific example on-hand, countless anime have stressed how even if a person/society presents you with just limited options, you don't have to listen to that nonsense and can find your own solution that doesn't conform to what they demand be the only ways forward.
Loathe as I am to mention this one considering what we now know about it's creator, Rurouni Kenshin taught me that it's never too late to try and change for the better, to redeem oneself. Just because one was "bad" before doesn't mean they're thereby locked into being "bad" forever, so long as one genuinely work hard at atonement for one's past crimes.
Fate Stay/Night taught me that people die when they are killed.

Okay so that last one was a bit of a giggle but the point is that anime expanded my horizons and my perceptions of the world far more than any American entertainment did, and I'm better off for it. Yes, anime has a LOT of garbage, but it's sad that the garbage is what gets all of the attention these days. :(

The lolicon aspect was one thing where it was becoming noticable the worst aspects were really starting to seep into the medium. And even that is getting worse now that last season and the current season has shows where the little girls arent put forward as aggressively sexual, yet it still feels like it is because the main lead practically does not hide their lust, and evem outright states their preference. Wait, nevermind, I actually recall some other recent shows, but still. Their situations are also played like gags, showing that them being arrested is only just a comedic gag.

But it has noticibly gotten worse in the long haul. Modern day isekais are just loaded with problems. The world that they go to isnt important (which kills it fundamentally) and a lot of it involves them dying. Its utterly morbid, they are not interested in getting home because it emphasizes that their life was shit prior to death, and it may as well be akin to 72 virgins type fantasy.

Incest is in your face. Remembet when Oreimo was the leading face? Who knew Pandoras box opened after that hit?

Hell even the rape shit. The fact that Goblin Slayer starts off by going hey Goblins are more clever and will wreck you for being too cocky, and it is ultimately characterized by the rape, both by the audience, as well as author is a fundamental failure on the shows behalf. There was a manga recently called Gal Cleaning which was a wholesome (not really) manga about a dude cleaning a Gals house, and then by chapter 8, it introduces the Student Council President who opposes the two being around each other but secretly she likes the dude. Then then spend a bunch of 8.xx chapters on a flashback on her getting raped by two dudes in a class, and her getting saved by the dude, and now she wants to be "cleaned". And she gets rejected in chapter 9 and the manga ends like 1 or two chapters later. Theres more 8.xx chapters than the main chapter line.

Its ridiculous. I cannot stand that these shows are having an audience that will continue to drag the medium down and cry down any anime that do not have these issues. Its fucking ironic since there were anime that didnt dabble in these more extreme issues up until around Xbox 360 era (which... uugh), but its only now that its a problem to have actual good shit.
meowr

Spieler1

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:social

jokes are supposed to be short

bork

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Hell even the rape shit. The fact that Goblin Slayer starts off by going hey Goblins are more clever and will wreck you for being too cocky, and it is ultimately characterized by the rape, both by the audience, as well as author is a fundamental failure on the shows behalf. There was a manga recently called Gal Cleaning which was a wholesome (not really) manga about a dude cleaning a Gals house, and then by chapter 8, it introduces the Student Council President who opposes the two being around each other but secretly she likes the dude. Then then spend a bunch of 8.xx chapters on a flashback on her getting raped by two dudes in a class, and her getting saved by the dude, and now she wants to be "cleaned". And she gets rejected in chapter 9 and the manga ends like 1 or two chapters later. Theres more 8.xx chapters than the main chapter line.

"I'm incredibly outraged by this and have done extensive research on the subject.  Please point me to more hentai sites of interest for further fap research."
\
:expert
ど助平

riotous

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I got back to my room, all of two seconds later. The room looked like some partying had happened but my five lady dormmates were nowhere to be found, so I immediately crashed, with shoes still on. Two hours later the girls all got back and woke me from my fully dressed slumber, one of them with a guy in tow, and they commented on my shoes still being on. I grogged a bit and woke up, then started a conversation with the de facto leader of the pack of Canadian 20-something ladies.

First she cleared with me that I was okay with some fucking taking place between one of the dorm girls and the guy she brought; no worries. Then we started shooting the shit as everyone winded down, tired and drunk, and we talked travel and worldviews and politics and so on, and she got to hear the normal explanation about my ridiculous improbable life. Apparently that group of Indian dudes was extremely harassy and straight up grab-assing them and other girls at the hostel, and so that's why no one was hanging out in the common room for the whole day 'cept for the the dudes themselves. Assholes.

She eventually got too sleepy and called it a night after a solid hour of fun conversation with me, and we noted that the hook up guy had passed out before anything happened and left the other girl awake and frustrated. His girl woke him up after a few minutes, and for her troubles she got just about 15 seconds of embarrassingly bad thrust from the guy straight into his snoring no more than 10 seconds later. Yikes!

Momo

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Hitler could be fucking a dozen 3 year olds while pushing kill buttons and watching anime and I'd still watch anime, care about the optics of who watches your entertainment brehs.

Joe Molotov

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Very troubling stuff. I could barely even read all 87 chapters of it.
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benjipwns

  • Senior Member
I'm a massive weeb but this is getting a bit excessive. People can choose the things they watch. I try to avoid works depicting what I think are problematic worldviews (which is like, 95% of the media being produced), and when I do view one, it simply means my appreciation of it lowers.

But even then, it most oftentimes is an enriching viewing experience because I keep what the creators wanted to convey as a point of reference for my perception of the world, society and myself.

This is why critical consumption of media needs to be learned and applied so that people do not become defined by what they consume.

However, I have to say that very problematic anime like Goblin Slayer being immensely popular is quite concerning. Some genres need to grow. (Dark) Fantasy needs to stop associating itself with the abuse of women and toxic masculinity.

Again. People keep ignoring what I'm saying. Look. At. The. Top. Anime. Of. The. Year. Thread. That. Was. Linked. There are so many fucking shows there that feature no bad fanservice, no oversexualization, no shitty slavery justification or other isekai overdone tropes.

Yeah, we get it, a lot of anime is a mess. A lot also isn't. Simply because you're not looking and instead listening to randos online who have such poor taste they think shite like Goblin Slayer is a masterpiece doesn't make anime all trash.

Yes. There are problems. Yes, for a while there it even was the norm- a lot of it linked to the fact anime gets paid for by merchandising sales, and whaddya know, lonely but affluent otaku like buying stuff plastered with their waifu. So it's very much an ouroboros. However... thanks to things like Crunchyroll trying to fund shows outside that norm and otaku no longer having so much income, it's no longer the majority, and we're seeing more and more good largely unproblematic shit by the year, even stuff that positively represents LGBT and people on the autism spectrum, along with dealing with issues high schoolers face in a healthy manner, for instance.

As an aside, allowing myself to critique the anime industry for a bit here... Someone earlier also brought up "this is why I only watch Shonen", which is funny because next to outright ecchi shit like harems or isekai, it's next worst. I mean look at stuff like Mineta or Roshi, or younger characters like Momo being in unfortunate outfits. Some shows like Mob Psycho are outliers to this, but the ratio of shows with fanservice for horny pubescent boys thrown in haphazardly vs those that don't in Shonen has stayed pretty much the same since, like, the late 80s at least.

Like I'll defend anime as a whole as improving but uh... Shonen definitely isn't. And I don't know how we fix that in particular, as it's made first and foremost with Japanese boys 12-18 in mind, so naturally adults won't be listened to on the subject. Nor is it something that I can see really see waning and forcing them to actually provide good stories that don't rely on cheap fanservice or sex gags.

Part of that I guess is it's less of a genre issue, more a demographics issue.

Of course, feel free to prove me wrong on that, as I'd quite like to be.
meowr

El Babua

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shosta

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I'm not sure how many people have got through either the article or the video because both of them are pretty long. I've read the entire blog post linked in the OP, but I have not watched the video.

The authors argument is often hard to follow and some paragraphs are basically incomprehensible. Still, the author's heart is in the right place.

Here's what I understand the author to be saying (I welcome correction if someone feels I am misconstruing their argument):
  • The "Left" attacks anime because they perceive it to be either culturally backwards or weird vs western media
  • This means that the only cultural space claiming anime is the Right, which is bad
  • Anime is good actually
  • Westerners on the "Left" develop these views of anime/Japan because they view the world through an Orientalist/Wacky Orientalist lens
  • However, anime and by extension Japan, isn't homogeneous and therefore it shouldn't all be painted with the same brush
  • The attacks by the "Left" are actually wrong - e.g. look at all the manga focused on queer people and LGBT issues
  • The attacks by the "Left" actually strengthen the position of the Right in Japan/West by perpetuating certain harmful stereotypes (e.g. that there aren't LGBT movements in Japan, or people fighting for women's rights etc)
  • We shouldn't be trying to change anime, as this implies that the West has ownership of anime, when actually it's something 'owned' by Japan
  • The anime-left should organise and mobilize to help change the anime community, because leftist organizing is important at every level of society - although on the ground organizing is even better.

Before I critique this thesis I want to highlight that there are a few good points in there. Namely, that we should resist attempts to "Other" Japanese people by assuming they all share similar views when they don't. As a result of the diversity of people, anime reflects a variety of views/beliefs/outlooks as well. I also believe that highlighting and supporting the struggles of the oppressed is important. However, there are some really big problems with this argument.

  • I am unconvinced that the only people attacking anime are the left, it seems to come from numerous sources. These attacks have never struck me as having a particular political bent.
  • The author makes no attempt to explain why anime is good, they simply state it as a fact.
  • When they do cite positive examples of important themes being covered by Japanese media (in a manner superior to even Western media), they reference manga that deals with LGBT/gender identity topics. The author suggest that "anime is sure to follow" these manga, but I can't seen any evidence of this.
  • The author doesn't really touch on 'problematic anime' at all - to defend or critique them. Actual discussion of specific anime is completely missing from their argument. The argument says that we shouldn't even critique anime at all, because that would be "succumbing to Orientalist traps".

    This, frankly, is utter rubbish because it makes anime immune from criticism. Ridiculous. Anime can be critiqued with the same analytical tools that we use to discuss any other media - all without "succumbing to Orientalism". There a decent amount of anime that's somewhat-to-extremely problematic (some of which is airing right now) and it should be called on its bullshit. This critique is often extremely reasonable and well founded. We have to open our eyes to the problems that exist in the mediums we love in order to help them get better.

 

benjipwns

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fuck i was going to do that one :lol
meowr

shosta

  • enfant misérable
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fuck i was going to do that one :lol
That's kinda the problem, isn't it? Few people are as reflective of the media they consume as you claim yourself to be, and even on top of that, you also only start that process of reflection when you deem the criticism as valid. We are outliers in a society that raises people to consume uncritically.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
ooooh, frittata

TakingBackSunday

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I've jerked off three times while reading this thread
püp

Great Rumbler

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I've jerked off three times while reading this thread

But was it to boring, gaijin pornography or glorious, Nihonjinron hentai?
dog

recursivelyenumerable

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I watched the video back when it was originally posted and unironically appreciated it, maybe I'm just too cringe and uncynical to be a real Borean anymore newsincerity.rtf  :-[
QED

Joe Molotov

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Quote
succumbing to Orientalist traps

:noah

Orientalist traps aren't gay
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recursivelyenumerable

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I've jerked off three times while reading this thread

But was it to boring, gaijin pornography or glorious, Nihonjinron hentai?

Glorious left-internationalist-with-catgirl-characteristics hentai
QED

shosta

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HardcoreRetro

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Them dutch childhood animes.

Boredfrom

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(Image removed from quote.)

Them dutch childhood animes.

It was actually a coproduction with a Japanese studio, doesn’t it?


HardcoreRetro

  • DIGITAL MAN
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(Image removed from quote.)

Them dutch childhood animes.

It was actually a coproduction with a Japanese studio, doesn’t it?

Collaboration between a Dutch writer, German character designer and a Japanese studio.

Joe Molotov

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shosta

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Violent, sexist and stupid, Ninja Scroll is the sort of movie that gave anime its sordid reputation. The decent action scenes and retrospectively impressive (but now dated) animation keep it from being totally irredeemable, but Ninja Scroll's plot is just about the worst thing you're liable to see in anything you watch, not necessarily for the content itself but for how seriously it takes everything. Plus, the repeated rape is inexcusable.

Joe Molotov

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It's like you don't even care about owning the libs anymore, shosta.
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Rahxephon91

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Is that a real post about Ninja Scroll?

Great Rumbler

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Is that a real post about Ninja Scroll?

That's Roger Ebert's review of Ninja Scroll.
dog

Trent Dole

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Violent, sexist and stupid, Ninja Scroll is inexcusable.
:beavis
Hi

Violent, sexist and stupid, Ninja Scroll is awesome fun

bork

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Plus, the repeated rape is inexcusable.

ど助平

shosta

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So, I don’t think I have much to add to this thread, but there are still some things I wanted to talk about. They might have been brought upon earlier, but I did not muster the courage to read 14XX posts of the thread, I only read about half.

(Also, I’m a white cis het man. I don’t know if it’s relevant, but I wanted to clear that up. (I’m French too, so not a native English speaker))


“Shouldn’t this be on the other side”


There are many reasons why this is the perfect place for this thread.

(First of all, the mod team let it there, so it most likely belongs there.)

But why ? Because, if you read the OP, you can see that they created this thread because of something gaming related (“I just asked a person to not use the word in a discord chat”. To me this sounds clearly gaming related).

Video games are political. You can’t just act as if you were blind and didn’t see colors/genders/etc. As a form of media (and art), video games have an influence over the players. And so does everything related to them, which includes this very forum. If we want things to change, then we need to discuss them from every point of view that matters, even slightly. Discussing how to be inclusive in a video game context matters for inclusiveness itself, not just in video games.

And we cannot do that on the other side. The discussion probably wouldn’t be video game-oriented. Let’s say OP made the same thread on Etcetera, replacing the Discord part with let’s say “I just asked a person to not use the word at a party”. I can guarantee you that the thread would be different from what it is here. I don’t know if OP would have received more or less support, but it would be different. The debates would be different. But this issue needs to be discussed and shared as much as possible.

Indeed, OP’s message is addressed to gamers. And as far as I know, the Etcetera posters and the Video Game posters are not the same (or at least not at 100%). And so, the best way for them to pass their message was through this side.


“I would be totally fine with being called girl, even though I’m a man”


Maybe you are, but maybe some aren’t. But that was not OP’s point. To their question, I would answer that it would probably bother me. But I can’t really know, it never happened to me, let alone on a daily basis. And that’s the thing really, one can think they can handle being misgendered once, but that’s not what non-binary/gender-fluid/trans people live (or even women, especially in OP’s situation – playing online). Being misgendered can be a DAILY issue.

This is kinda like chinese water torture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_water_torture). Ask anybody, they’ll tell you they can handle receiving a water drop on their forehead, and even a dozen. But it’s the regularity of it, the fact that it NEVER stops, and that you can’t do anything about it, that make it a torture that truly harms.

Now, to speak from my own experience. I take an English course in which I’m the only guy out of 14 students. The teachers usually does their best to use neutral terms or both when it’s impossible to do otherwise (which is often in a Latin language like French). And honestly, it feels weird when one of them forget and say “girls”, or stuff like “vous allez toutes y arrivez” (you will all make it : “all” is gendered in French. “toutes” for a group of women and “tous” for a group of guys or a mixed group. Though this latter use is slightly less employed nowadays, and they just use both). I can’t blame them, they are used to having only women in their course. And when the mistake is made, it’s weird, but I’m not really offended. But the fact is that it feels better when I’m not forgotten. So I kinda understand how being neutral/inclusive matters.


“You are the minority, you can’t ask 99% of people to change the way they act”


In my opinion, that’s just being polite. It does not harm me in any way to stop saying exclusive terms like “boys”. To me, it just looks like the people being annoyed by it are too lazy to change the way they act. They are living in their comfy bubble where they can say anything they want and don’t want to be told no. That’s literally called being conservative: you don’t want things to change, you want to protect your traditions (here, calling a group of people online “boys”).

(They don’t want to be told no, or how to act. This is a bit like people not wanting to become vegetarian just because they don’t like being told how to do things. Or people not wanting to change their habits to protect the environment just because it’s not their own initiatives. A form of individualism)

Because that’s what this is, a tradition. But not every tradition deserves to be kept. The worlds changes when they don’t. Some traditions disappeared because they were outdated. That’s what this is. If you can’t give up on this custom, you are living in the past. (Well, the problem here being that it is not something from the past, as it is still ingrained in people’s mind. But it should be)

But whatever, let’s talk about this majority thing. It is a fact that it is a minority (the non-binary/gender-fluid/trans people) that is potentially harmed by the use of “boys”. I don’t know the exact numbers, but let’s say it’s 1%. Indeed, it means that the 99% others will have to change for just a tiny minority. But this change is also for a minority of their time! Nobody is asking anyone to stop using entirely using the word “boys”. They are asking you you to stop using it when it refers to them. Which logically means a small part of their time. Basically, what I meant is that, it’s not that big of a deal.

But the thing is, this majority argument does not hold up. Because it is NOT in fact about a minority. OP is non-binary, and speaks for the non-binary people they know. But “boys” is not just an exclusive term for them and non-binary people. It is exclusive to them AND women. Now I don’t have any numbers, but I pretty sure that this should add up to more than 50% of the people (considering the same numbers of women and men. You add to the first group the non-binary people). And so now, it’s about respecting a majority.

One might tell me that in the gaming community, there aren’t as many women as there are men. That’s most likely true, I still don’t have the numbers though. But that’s the thing. If the gamers keep using exclusive terms, then the video game community won’t be able to achieve a true gender equality, as women might still feel rejected. As OP said repeatedly, it’s a Boys club thing.


The question of custom changing a word’s meaning


I kinda want to speak about this. Most of the arguments that can be found in this thread revolve around the fact that “Boys” or “Guys” are not gendered anymore, they are meant to talk about a group, no matter the gender of the people in that group. It is true for guys, I just checked in the dictionary, but it definitely isn’t for “boys”.

But the dictionary definition does not really matter. The significations of words change with time. I just checked in Diderot’s Encyclopedia the word “nègre” (I don’t need to translate that…). You can find a, very, racist description of black people. Check in a modern dictionary the same word, you will learn that the word is offensive. Definitions are not fixed, they can be changed, for the better. Usually, the dictionary is updated when the custom changed, not the other way around. Which means that the definition is not a universal rule that cannot be broken.

Sometimes, it is true, the custom changes a word from offensive to neutral. Maybe “cunt” is the example in English ? I’m not sure. But in French, the perfect example is “Putain”. Literally, it means “whore”. But in reality, it’s used in the same way as English speakers use “Fuck”. For some, it’s almost punctuation, or an interjection. I’ve never met in my entire life someone who thought it was disrespectful to prostitutes to say “Putain”. But these things take time. A lot of time. It needs to be accepted by every one to effectively change in meaning.

I’ve seen people argue that “PD” (“f*g” but I feel like it’s even worse) is not homophobic anymore. And I just don’t think so at all. Gay marriage is 6 years old in France, and there are still people that wished it was banned again. Homophobia is frown upon. And that’s why the word is still harmful. But as for “Putain”, it is different. The scorn towards sex workers is deeply engrained in people’s mind. Nobody cares. It’s at a point of no return. I personally try not to say the word (I’m using “Punaise” (stink bug) or “Purée” instead), but it’s not the case for every one.

Boys is not, yet, a neutral word in custom. But even if it was, as guys is, it doesn’t mean that the custom is right. But what’s the most infuriating to me is that there are alternatives.


It is exceptionally EASY to use gender-neutral words in English. Try speaking a Latin language: it’s hard to be neutral.


Indeed, words like “folks”, “mates”, “y’all”, “everyone” or “people” are inclusive and mean the exact same thing. In a way I’m jealous as I can’t find proper equivalent in French, and I suppose the same is true for other Latin languages. We can say “les gars”, “les mecs”, “les filles” or “les meufs”, which are all gendered. But to stay neutral and inclusive, I could only find two words, maybe there are more but I can’t seem to remember them : “les gens” (which feels weird honestly) and “tout le monde” (everyone literally, that’s the one I use). That’s not a lot of options.

Even better, English has gender neutral pronouns! French doesn’t. In my post, I can talk about OP as “them” or “they”. I wouldn’t be able to do so in French, we only have “il” or “elle”. When that happens, the only solution I can find if I don’t know their preferred pronoun is to use their username, which might feel weird sometimes.

Similarly, let’s say I talk about a game players. If I say “Les joueurs de smash” (“Smash players”), I use a mas