Author Topic: Getting a second bachelors, jfc  (Read 446 times)

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Cindi Mayweather

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Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« on: February 09, 2019, 09:17:32 PM »
Been reading up constantly and bookmarking scholarships and grants. It's so darn tough going through this alone without any support. The consolation prize is doing art work which tells me I'm doing the right thing. I wish I did this years ago. Oh well. But it's so damn hard. My number one school has a lower tuition than other art schools but it's still pretty up there. Thankfully they give out scholarship money in droves but it's still pretty tough. At best I might still have to pay 15k a year after school scholarships if I don't get a full ride (which I doubt I will) which means i gotta really pad the scholarships because i want to limit loans. It really fucking sucks, finding ways to pay for it, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Don Rumata

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2019, 09:34:26 PM »
Why do you want to go to art school tho? 15k a year seems a lot of money still, for something that has become less than necessary.
You can learn 90% of it as a self taught artist (and plenty of pros are self taught) especially nowadays with Youtube and shit, and having a great portfolio will always be the greater factor, on whether people will give a shit about your work or not.
I get that you can make some connections in there, but still, social media is a thing, and it's free.

Don't know your situation tho, so maybe i misread what you're aiming for.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 09:38:32 PM by Don Rumata »

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2019, 09:54:14 PM »
Please excuse any snark in this post.

If I were going just to learn to paint or draw I'd go the self taught route, and have. But I'm going for animation, which requires more expertise. There's animation schools online but it's really only for 3d and 3d is garbo.

The "don't go to art school" stuff is also garbo - no offense to you. It depends on entirely on the field. For something like digital painting, no you don't need it. You can take online classes, and get some books from the library. But highly specialized fields require schooling. Also, school includes a specific environment where you compete with others. They mention you don't need to go to school, but pretty much every influential artist bar a few exceptions I can think of got formal training. CalArts for instance was made by Disney animation vets and is still used to this day to recruit the next generation of Disney creators. Big time companies also go to art schools to recruit. In terms of opportunity there's nothing like it.

I also notice that a lot of the "you don't need to go to art school" rabble tend to be folks trying to sell something. Like the notable case being Noah Bradley, who is mediocre or below average as an actual draftsman and he's making a business out of his mediocre lack of fundamentals service.

Basically, it depends on the field. If you wanna be a photographer go grab some books and go shooting photos. But if you want to do a highly specialized field like 2d animated feature film by yourself? lmao Good luck.

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2019, 11:02:42 PM »
I mean, let's say you do get the skills from the internet.

How do you get your foot in? Art schools have teachers that work on and are employed by actual major studios. In terms of access to resources, it can't be beaten. Sure, you could go around shopping your resume and portfolio at Disney, but at a legit art school Disney comes to you. It's not even remotely comparable. And to be able to taught by actual people who work and have worked at Disney or other top studios that have decades of experience in the flesh? The fact that people do not see value in this should alarm you. A business like animation is also small. Connections mean everything. How are you going to find those connections if you do not go through formal training to get them? You'd have to be one helluva artist to make it though. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But exceptions do not prove the rule. Can a self taught animator compete with someone that got an internship at Cartoon Network or Disney? No fucking way. Your shit better be good.  Shit, it better knock the pants off my ass.

That being said, not everyone should go to art school. I've thought about it and ruminated about it and I know that it's the best environment for me.

My goals are to make animated feature films for the big leagues. Given those goals, school is the only real option.

Of the most influential animated programming in the past decade: Regular Show, Gravity Falls, Stephen Universe, all of them were head started by art school alumn. You pay for art school, but in terms of numbers, it pays itself. This doesn't mean it's in any way guaranteed. I am too old and too experienced to know that. But I'm not seeing anything compete with it.

Given that 3d has become over saturated, old, and in many ways boring, 2d feature film revival is right around the corner. Disney is clearly preparing for it by beefing up their 2d television division. I want in and art school is the best way to get in.

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2019, 11:23:24 PM »
Sorry, I'm going for a triple.

I have to say that I personally am sick and tired of the aversion of any type of schooling or lessons in the arts. As a beginner guitarists, I was told by many people,"you don't need lessons. Jimi Hendrix and Prince were self taught, man" as if lessons are a bad thing. People get in their heads that any form of arts education is a complete waste of time despite the fact the overwhelmingly majority of successful artists having formal lessons. It's a crock of shit that paints (lol) art as if it's something you either have or you don't. But in order to have it, you also need to have those needs and skills fostered and grown with structure. A lot of budding guitarists will focus on tabs and stuff without learning a single arpeggio or scale and fall behind because off it. Art education has value and fuck those that don't see it.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 11:32:32 PM by Cindi Mayweather »

chronovore

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2019, 02:21:05 AM »
There's nothing wrong with lessons.

There are plenty of online lessons for free you can do without getting US$15-20K in debt.

The real benefit of going to school is building connections and even competition.

Connections will get you hired, and you will get connections hired. But it's also about your reel, and you can develop a good reel without going to CalArts, etc. But they do crank out hire-able artists.

Don Rumata

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2019, 05:32:51 AM »
I did mention the connection thing, but i don't know if it's still worth getting in debt for it, when social media is a thing (though it sounds like you've got very specific goal in mind).
And while i can see why you'd want the schooling, given the interest in animation (which can be a bit more technical than other artistic fields) it's still abides to the principles of learning to draw: a shit ton of practice.
No school is going to fix that.

All a school can give you, behind connections, is knowledge (which yes, you can realistically get yourself through internet and internet communities), structured assignment (which again, you can give yourself) and, probably more important, instant professional feedback, which is honestly harder to obtain on your own or even with online tutoring.

I'm not saying schooling is pointless for artists, but when you're talking about paying thousands of dollars, it is avoidable (compared to say, medical school or whatever).

90% of being a good artist comes from putting in the hours, and doing the grind, and training your brain to draw.
The knowledge is pretty fucking basic at the end of the day.

As someone who (years ago now) did some years of an art school specialized in comics, my personal experience is that while it was useful to me at the time, because i wasn't really on the internet then, today i'd never suggest to anyone to spend thousands of dollars to be told about perspective, anatomy or how to draw shapes in a 3d space.
This is literally shit you can learn in a week, and then just have to grind out for the next 10 years to get good at.

I don't know about music, but when you say people in art lack "fundamentals" it isn't about lack of schooling, it's about wanting to skip the boring part, and not wanting to put in the grind.
Because rendering a headshot of a pretty anime gurl is fairly easy with photoshop, and gets you a lot of cheap likes, but learning  to properly manipulate shapes and value and color etc etc, takes thousands of hours of boring shit, and studies, and exercises, and drawing boxes and mannequins, etc.
But schooling ain't gonna just give you that, either you find it in yourself to spend the time and energy to do it, or it's never gonna happen.

These are just my 2 cents, and again, i'm not trying to tell you "schooling is pointless don't do it", just saying that 90% of getting good at drawing is just in the practice you'll have to do on your own, school or no school.
If you feel like school is the best way to motivate you to do said grind, and you don't mind paying for it, then go for it (i mean that sincerely).

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2019, 08:50:38 AM »
I agree. Which is precisely why Iíve used online and books to study things like perspective, gesture, figure drawing. I have in the past subscribed to New Masters Academy, and bought Loomis books. This morning in fact, I am currently getting ready to go to a figure drawing class. In no way have I convinced myself that I am going to school to learn those things. I learned perspective within twenty pages of Loomisí figure drawing book.

However, I am treating it like a trade school. Iím not going there to learn fundamentals, something Iíve already got after life time of study - although they need refinement. Iím going to become roughed into a diamond, something that I cannot do alone. Again, if I were going to just learn about shit like perspective and anatomy I wouldnít be doing this. I am going so I can gain the tools to be a film maker and storyteller. Between own my standard of drawing/painting skill (Ghost in the Shell, Kenshin ova, and romanticism era paintings are my visual benchmarks), thereís also animation in general, and finally film making. Considering my goals are very, very high combining those three interests requires a highly specialized environment that only art school can provide. The idea that I can achieve all of this just reading a few books and posting on the internet is preposterous to me.

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2019, 08:58:41 AM »
ďYou donít need school.Ē

Ahem.

This is my standard.



You can try to do all this yourself if you want to. But Iím sorry. Again, itís preposterous to me.

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2019, 09:23:02 AM »


Skills required:

- direction
- editing
- timing
- animation
- high painting, observation, and anatomy skills

You can certainly teach yourself to be specialized in one - or even two - of these things. But combined? My ultimate goal is to reform American animation. How will that be remotely achievable without connections? I need allies.

There's nothing you can do to convince away from schooling. I'm just trying to find ways to pay.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 09:28:21 AM by Cindi Mayweather »

Don Rumata

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2019, 09:43:40 AM »
There's nothing you can do to convince away from schooling. I'm just trying to find ways to pay.
I don't want to either, from the OP alone, i didn't even know you wanted to do animation, let alone that you were on a holy mission to reform American animation.

Howerever, despite this:
[...]The idea that I can achieve all of this just reading a few books and posting on the internet is preposterous to me.
being an absurd oversimplification of what i actually said, if you can bring back 90s/2000s Japanimation in place of that boring ass calarts Steven Universe style, you have my sword.
Whatever works best for you.

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2019, 07:58:42 PM »
Sorry if I was grouchy this morning.

Anyways Iíve been talking to animation teachers. Iíve been suggested that one route is to go to community college for two years, then apply to art school and finish off my degree. Iím highly considering doing that route.

Mr Gilhaney

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2019, 08:36:07 PM »
Go ahead and do it m8. I was 2 months off finishing my bachelor, and could easily have done it if I had any interest, when I dropped out and started a new one. Well worth it to be happy.
b♿re

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2019, 09:27:02 PM »
What degrees?

Mr Gilhaney

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2019, 09:43:03 PM »
I dropped out of digital art and animation actually, where we worked in 3d mostly. Was at digipen as well for a while as an exchange student programme, which was pretty cool for a young guy from Denmark. But just wasn't my thing, even though I tried to convince myself it was for years. I hate doing something I am not good at, and I had little talent. I also had little motivation. Haven't touched 3ds max since.

While education itself is generally free here, there was a ton of costs with this bachelor. My mother who is lower middle class, and with her own struggles paid it all, and I felt huge shame from dropping out for years. Probably still a little to be honest, which sucks. But was the right decision in the end.

Took a little time off. Started substitute teaching just to earn some money while figuring stuff out. Found it pretty cool and ended up getting a bachelor in pedagogy. Been thinking about getting a master degree, but probably will end up never doing it
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 10:04:20 PM by Mr Gilhaney »
b♿re

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2019, 10:23:42 PM »
very cool story

Mr Gilhaney

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2019, 10:34:10 PM »
I can't tell if you are serious. But I will take it  8)
b♿re

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2019, 10:36:39 PM »
I am

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2019, 10:36:56 PM »
fwiw i also hate 3ds max

chronovore

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2019, 09:19:07 AM »
fwiw i also hate 3ds max
It's worth hating.
Try Blender, if you can get accustomed to not using left-click to select. It's free and has huge community support.
Or get a student license for Maya.

Cindi Mayweather

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2019, 10:50:20 AM »
One of the blessed things is reading modern 3d courses and not seeing 3ds max anywhere. The ol bastard is dead (hopefully).

Mr Gilhaney

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2019, 11:20:54 AM »
Wait Autodesk are still both releasing 3dsmax and Maya? I assumed they would stop one of the two, when they bought Maya.... Guess not.

b♿re

chronovore

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Re: Getting a second bachelors, jfc
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2019, 10:56:12 PM »
Wait Autodesk are still both releasing 3dsmax and Maya? I assumed they would stop one of the two, when they bought Maya.... Guess not.

Too many paying customers and entrenched users. It /feels/ like they've prioritized Maya over Max for attention though.