These kids protesting against climate change

[shosta]

personal action doesn't even matter, the thing that will mitigate climate change is investment in green technologies until they outperform the carbon ones for most uses. I'm not rich so I can't do that, I need to vote for somebody who will spend government money on that and shame all my friends until they do, too.

[Mandark]

personal action doesn't even matter, the thing that will mitigate climate change is investment in green technologies until they outperform the carbon ones for most uses. I'm not rich so I can't do that, I need to vote for somebody who will spend government money on that and shame all my friends until they do, too.

Right. Ethical consumerism won't solve the problem but maybe has some value keeping it at the front of people's minds and staving off a sense of frustration and hopelessness.

[Potato]

nah your post was just bad, and you dug in to defend it. understandable reaction but still wrong

should ask yourself why you got so hyperbolic and conspiratorial about some minor activism by kids. what's the underlying thing that bothered you so bad?

Ok. You do you mate.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Actually I don't believe that, to a large degree we really fo vote with our wallets. If you switch to buy green more products will come.

I know many don't buy into this but 30 years ago my dad was one of the first ones to open an eco food shop where he lives, now this food is so mainstream every shop has eco isles.

It also sends a message to politicians and gives them a mandate to makes big changes. Politicians won't tackle green issues if they can't point to support from a broad majority.

[shosta]

Reusing a plastic bottle isn't going to make much of a difference if China builts a coal plant every month.

FACT CHECK: Xi Jinping Thought on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era®'s 9th point is "Coexist with Nature": "We must establish and practise the philosophy that lucid waters and lush mountains are invaluable assets, uphold the basic national policy for energy conservation and environmental protection, treat the ecological environment as we treat life, coordinate the systematic management of mountains, waters, forests, fields, lakes, and prairies... build a beautiful China, create a good production and living environment for the people, and contribute to global ecological safety."

edit: I just checked the Environmental Defense Fund's page on China and it includes a section called "A giant leap forward"

[Mandark]

Ok. You do you mate.

buddy your posts were bad and I love ya too much to lie to you

also you liked nintex's posts about how terrible environmentalists are and how important it is to do nothing about climate change, so at this point you've pretty much blown your cover of being Deeply Concerned About The Children. why you felt the need to do that instead of saying what you really think is maybe something to ruminate on

[Cerveza mas fina]

Firstly, trying to only consume clean increases living costs significantly, to the point that it is impossible for many people with (below) average income.

If you can't afford it you can't afford it.

If you can but you won't its on you.

I know people that earn double or triple what I do and claim to care about the environment but won't buy eco meat because its "too expensive".

A lot depends on what you want to do with your money and involves a lot of excuses in western society. Like "I can't afford good food" because I "need to have" this holiday, game , phone, pants etc.

[shosta]

I love ya too much to lie to you

this effortless construction Pinnochio's Paradox

[Mandark]

There's an anecdote from the 90's where Bill Clinton tells Jiang Zemin something along the lines of "I hope you guys find a better way to develop your economy than the way we did it, or the world is fucked."

ha ha ha

[Cerveza mas fina]

As a species we will always need to consume in order to thrive, like everything else in the universe. Zero impact is impossible, everything is circular.

That said the earth is the only liveable planet we know and we are the only species with the mental capacity to try to manage it somewhat, and we should in order to keep it in the the beat shape possible.

We're very far off if ever in colonizing planets or mining asteroids for metals so best to focus on keeping our back yard liveable. Maybe in a few hundred years we will be able to upload are collective consciousness into an advanced ai and hurl it into space as our planet is dying  but for now this is it.

[Potato]

Ok. You do you mate.

buddy your posts were bad and I love ya too much to lie to you

also you liked nintex's posts about how terrible environmentalists are and how important it is to do nothing about climate change, so at this point you've pretty much blown your cover of being Deeply Concerned About The Children. why you felt the need to do that instead of saying what you really think is maybe something to ruminate on

The sum total of your contribution to the discussion has been to shit on people offering their opinion. Care to actually share yours?

[Mandark]

Yeah. Climate change is bad, coordinated action is needed to mitigate it, professional climate denialists shouldn't be relied on for accurate information, and some kids doing a protest for a popular cause is totally fine.

[Potato]

Ok, so we're 100% in agreeance, except that I think that the kids have been exploited by organised political activists who have manipulated kids to achieve their own agenda.

You don't agree. Ok, that's fine. Is there any need to be an ass about it?

[shosta]

go bitch about your hurt feelings somewhere else, nobody cares

[Cerveza mas fina]

Who manipulated all these kids worldwide?

[Mandark]

except you have no evidence for that, you refused to address people's actual criticism and instead put words in their mouth ("OH YOU THINK IT'S ALL SPONTANEOUS AND INNOCENT!?"), you co-signed nintex's posts that are opposed to what you now claim to believe in, and honing in on the alleged ulterior motives of the protest rather than the issue itself is already a red flag

if you're gonna act disingenuous you're gonna get sassed and it's not the end of the dang world

[Potato]

 

[Mandark]

like if your stance is "i'll pretend to believe whatever if you'll stop being mean to me" i guess that's an ethos, but be up front about it

[Potato]

My stance is pretty fucking easy to follow you simpleton. If it's too complex, go get a responsible adult to explain it to you.


I guess I failed at step 4 of the Good Person (TM) test.

[Mandark]

"Of course I think climate change is real and an important issue! But if anyone suggests doing anything about it I'll accuse them of being the unwitting puppets of a shadowy conspiracy."

[Transhuman]

The fact that GERMANY, where it's fucking overcast like half the time has more solar panels than Australia is an indictment of our country.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Australia could run off solar no probz

[Cerveza mas fina]

Mandark lets assume there is a shadow conspiracy that claims wanting to preserve the environment, provide healthy food and fresh air.

But what do they really want?

[shosta]

Mandark lets assume there is a shadow conspiracy that claims wanting to preserve the environment, provide healthy food and fresh air.

But what do they really want?

that's easy

https://larouchepac.com/20181020/global-warming-population-reduction-not-science

[chronovore]

Ok, so we're 100% in agreeance, except that I think that the kids have been exploited by organised political activists who have manipulated kids to achieve their own agenda.

You don't agree. Ok, that's fine. Is there any need to be an ass about it?

Well, define "exploit."

Activists who care about the environment have an agenda. It more-or-less perfectly overlaps with the kids who are worried about their future environment.

Is that called "exploiting" or is it called cooperation, collaboration, or uniting?

In contrast, I'd argue that MOST TIMES the political Left can rarely even agree on the right way to discuss things, let alone actually unify behind anything effectively.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Mandark lets assume there is a shadow conspiracy that claims wanting to preserve the environment, provide healthy food and fresh air.

But what do they really want?

that's easy

https://larouchepac.com/20181020/global-warming-population-reduction-not-science

Dang

Edit: i havent seen it but I guess economic growth relies on growing population?

[BIONIC]

Ok, so we're 100% in agreeance, except that I think that the kids have been exploited by organised political activists who have manipulated kids to achieve their own agenda.

You don't agree. Ok, that's fine. Is there any need to be an ass about it?

marrec is an abrasive dumbass who gets off on feeling morally and intellectually superior (when he’s neither) on a forum that has five active users and makes less than $2 per day on ad money. He’s too pathetic to worry about, friendo.

[ToxicAdam]

Mandark lets assume there is a shadow conspiracy that claims wanting to preserve the environment, provide healthy food and fresh air.

But what do they really want?

Why is it always presented as a false dilemma?

Those things are already occurring in the world. You can go back to any point in time in history until now and the strides Western society has made has been significant and keeps increasing at a greater rate.

[Cerveza mas fina]

You can't say "it has happened in the past so it will again"

That's not how history works.

[MMaRsu]

You mean parents are telling their children what to believe in

[CatsCatsCats]

Lol what ads?

[naff]

jfc who is this potato chud?

yes, children and for the most part teenagers and adults too, lack proper critical thinking skills and will buy into your agenda if you present it well. in this case, an agenda that is pretty uncontroversial unless you're an ignorant tool. so terrible, mobilising children to have some feelings in an innocuous protest.

[agrajag]

imagine being afraid of a bogeyman in 2019.

It’s the same scam as religion: indoctrinate the kids, live the way we decide and send us your money so we can keep doing the Lords work. Meanwhile you get the false sense of “living more righteous” than your neighbor.

Imagine being a climate change denier and still doubling down on it in 2019.

[Van Cruncheon]

Climate change is real but in our country they had calculated that to reduce the temperate increase by 0.00007 C degrees we had to spend about 900 billion.

"we" Are you referencing the IPCC report estimating a total requirement of ~900 billion annually in "energy related investments" to limit warming to 1.5c above industrial levels by 2050?

No the Dutch government has a plan to meat the Paris goals. They have to spend 900 billion, increase taxes on energy, basically ban all cars that run on gas and litter the landscape with wind turbines and even doing all that they won't meet the Paris goals.


The flow chart is simple

Good person(TM)
1) You have to believe in climate change
2) You have to believe that climate change is caused by humans
3) You have to believe that re-using your plastic bottles and not eating hamburgers will make any difference
4) You have to believe and encourage and support anyone who brings up climate change whenever
5) You have to believe that every 'recent' disaster from the Syrian war to the California forest fires is caused by climate change
6) You have to believe that the war against climate change is worth everything, including ruining your economy and civilization
7) You have to believe that fighting climate change is going to work even if Russia, China and other developing countries do nothing
(BONUS POINTS: AL GORE WAS RIGHT)

If you don't meet any of the above requirements you are a Nazi racist bigot.
A sort of religous zeal that has caused people who were pretty much with the climate people on points 1,2,3 to side with the climate sceptics

Easier way to fix climate change is to have all the best thinkers in the world. Currently employed to built trains for Siemens, planes for Lockheed, movies for Disney, drill for Rosneft, design phones for Apple and cars and rockets for Elon to come up with workable and practical solutions to handle this problem. If it's a man made process it can be reversed by man.

This has been going on for decades and suddenly we all have to 'panic'. I'm sorry, I'm not panicking about this because the media suffered from a stroke November 2016.

lighting that much straw on fire isn't helping the environment

[ToxicAdam]

Imagine being a climate change denier and still doubling down on it in 2019.

What am I denying? Man contributes to climate change, but not to a degree that we need to partake in drastic changes in policy. Black carbon is a far greater threat than any other GHG and we should be doing more about it.

[Nola]

"I'm not a denier, I just reject the whole of the entire scientific consensus around CO2's level of harm as a GHG and about how our changes have both already affected and will continue to affect the environment and subsequent economic and societal health unless we make drastic changes as a species."

Cool semantics game bro.

[Nola]

Actually I don't believe that, to a large degree we really fo vote with our wallets. If you switch to buy green more products will come.

I know many don't buy into this but 30 years ago my dad was one of the first ones to open an eco food shop where he lives, now this food is so mainstream every shop has eco isles.

It also sends a message to politicians and gives them a mandate to makes big changes. Politicians won't tackle green issues if they can't point to support from a broad majority.

All of us on this forum could forgo civilization and go live in the forest off roots and berries and nothing is going to change in time to mitigate the looming threat. The change has to be much, much bigger, and that requires centralized policy and mobilization.

Change has to occur on a much more massive scale than the scattershot glacial movement that consumer preference can drive in the face of all the forces only government has the power to really alleviate counter-pressure from.

Consumer pressure can have a role in the way Mandark speaks, but without massive US government intervention(and the hope re-participation along with enormous American economic shifts can shock the international community to follow suit somewhat) it is ultimately a fools errand IMO.

[Mandark]

What am I denying? Man contributes to climate change, but not to a degree that we need to partake in drastic changes in policy. Black carbon is a far greater threat than any other GHG and we should be doing more about it.

I find it interesting that you've changed several of your old beliefs on this topic, tacitly admitting in each case that the mainstream science was right and you were wrong, but still hold on to the idea that climate science/activism is a "scam."

[ToxicAdam]

It can be both. There can be environmental activists and science that are scams, yet other related science or activism behind it be sound or earnest.  It doesn't have to be an all/nothing scenario.

[Van Cruncheon]

OH NO POOH, YOU'RE EATING PURE CENTRISM