Author Topic: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times  (Read 3577 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Nintex

  • Finish the Fight
  • Senior Member
Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« on: May 04, 2019, 11:33:54 AM »
Yes, the crunch is real. Has been for years. But there's so many 'oh god crunch' stories out now that it needs a thread.

Just so we can point and laugh at the mismanagement and say things like "at least it’s not as bad as Midway" followed by something that is a good time and actually the opposite of crunch.

Quote
Calling someone out for bad behavior was met with over-exaggerated pleas to not take it to HR. When I did talk about the culture problems to full-timers, I usually got the line of ‘at least it’s not as bad as Midway [essentially an earlier incarnation of NetherRealm] where they did … ‘ usually followed up with something terrible like doing blow off of hookers in the studio.”
https://variety.com/2019/gaming/news/netherrealm-studio-warner-bros-games-toxic-1203204728/amp/

 :rash


We can also play fun games. Like "Guess the studio"

Quote
“‘He doesn’t need to ask permission; he’s a man. He can take what he wants from you.’ The associate producer attempted to high five me after this. I told him what he said was inappropriate and he explained to me it was just a joke.”
🤴

Trent Dole

  • the sharpest tool in the shed
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2019, 05:25:17 PM »
We can also play fun games. Like "Guess the studio"

Quote
“‘He doesn’t need to ask permission; he’s a man. He can take what he wants from you.’ The associate producer attempted to high five me after this. I told him what he said was inappropriate and he explained to me it was just a joke.”
Uhm, all of them?
Hi

Chooky

  • Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2019, 05:38:12 PM »
back in the mid 90s u.s. devs kept blogs called .plan files. all of them were filled with stories about people sleeping on cots in their office for weeks at a time and rarely seeing their families. reading that bullshit was more than enough to convince me that going into the gaming industry was something i'd never want to do.

Nintex

  • Finish the Fight
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2019, 07:01:02 PM »
back in the mid 90s u.s. devs kept blogs called .plan files. all of them were filled with stories about people sleeping on cots in their office for weeks at a time and rarely seeing their families. reading that bullshit was more than enough to convince me that going into the gaming industry was something i'd never want to do.
Did you keep any of these?

I remember the Fatbabies forum and the Rareware employee posts. Who said that Microsoft should come in and fire the management.
Guess what, MS did. But they set the rest of the place on fire as well.  :awesome
🤴

Tasty

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2019, 08:16:06 PM »
Quote
“‘He doesn’t need to ask permission; he’s a man. He can take what he wants from you.’ The associate producer attempted to high five me after this. I told him what he said was inappropriate and he explained to me it was just a joke.”

#CrunchTimesUp

Chooky

  • Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2019, 10:17:39 PM »
back in the mid 90s u.s. devs kept blogs called .plan files. all of them were filled with stories about people sleeping on cots in their office for weeks at a time and rarely seeing their families. reading that bullshit was more than enough to convince me that going into the gaming industry was something i'd never want to do.
Did you keep any of these?

I remember the Fatbabies forum and the Rareware employee posts. Who said that Microsoft should come in and fire the management.
Guess what, MS did. But they set the rest of the place on fire as well.  :awesome

nah that woulda been a suuuuper long time to have kept those around. i used to read them on...shacknews? or was it blue something? i dunno

Mr Gilhaney

  • Gay and suicidal
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2019, 10:56:25 PM »
Seems like those bioware fheggits should crunch some more

Tasty

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2019, 11:33:28 PM »
Also how new is this "folx" terminology, and how appropriate is it this article contains no context or explanation for it

Rufus

  • 🙈🙉🙊
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2019, 12:52:37 AM »
back in the mid 90s u.s. devs kept blogs called .plan files. all of them were filled with stories about people sleeping on cots in their office for weeks at a time and rarely seeing their families. reading that bullshit was more than enough to convince me that going into the gaming industry was something i'd never want to do.
Did you keep any of these?

I remember the Fatbabies forum and the Rareware employee posts. Who said that Microsoft should come in and fire the management.
Guess what, MS did. But they set the rest of the place on fire as well.  :awesome

nah that woulda been a suuuuper long time to have kept those around. i used to read them on...shacknews? or was it blue something? i dunno
bluesnews.com

Looking as web 1.0 as ever.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2019, 01:19:17 AM »
I imagine someone probably archived all the id .plan's.

John Carmack probably did his own. At one point I remember he admitted he should just start a blog since it wasn't actually about id stuff anymore most of the time. :lol

chronovore

  • relapsed dev
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2019, 02:36:14 AM »
We can also play fun games. Like "Guess the studio"

Quote
“‘He doesn’t need to ask permission; he’s a man. He can take what he wants from you.’ The associate producer attempted to high five me after this. I told him what he said was inappropriate and he explained to me it was just a joke.”
Uhm, all of them?

Woman friend of mine interviewed years ago at Midway for a senior position, and spoke with a well-known senior lead there. She asked, "Are there many other women working here in the studio?" and the guy answered unironically, "Do you mean other than the secretaries and HR?"

Don Rumata

  • Hard To Be A John
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2019, 02:44:34 AM »
Quote
followed up with something terrible like doing blow off of hookers in the studio.
:noooo

But imagine having to do crunch and kill yourself, to produce Mortal Kombat.  :larry

chronovore

  • relapsed dev
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2019, 05:04:02 AM »
I'm stunned that anyone is surprised that Netherrealms, the last vestige of Midway, has a toxic development culture.

thisismyusername

  • GunOn™! Apply directly to forehead!
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2019, 06:45:04 AM »
I'm stunned that anyone is surprised that the games industry, the last vestige of old-boy tech, has a toxic development culture.

FTFY.

It's not just Mortal Kombat. Riot Games (which is a newer studio) has had the same problem. Not with crunch, per se. But the sexual harassment/discrimination.

Chooky

  • Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2019, 08:00:10 AM »
back in the mid 90s u.s. devs kept blogs called .plan files. all of them were filled with stories about people sleeping on cots in their office for weeks at a time and rarely seeing their families. reading that bullshit was more than enough to convince me that going into the gaming industry was something i'd never want to do.
Did you keep any of these?

I remember the Fatbabies forum and the Rareware employee posts. Who said that Microsoft should come in and fire the management.
Guess what, MS did. But they set the rest of the place on fire as well.  :awesome

nah that woulda been a suuuuper long time to have kept those around. i used to read them on...shacknews? or was it blue something? i dunno
bluesnews.com

Looking as web 1.0 as ever.

and it's still updated! why the hell would anyone dedicate their life to doing that

Chooky

  • Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2019, 10:13:37 AM »
there's a huge difference between a little unplanned overtime to finish stuff up and forcing whole teams of employees that make $12 an hour to work 7 days a week or risk termination

Tripon

  • Teach by day, Sleep by night
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2019, 10:45:02 AM »
Who earns as low as $12/ hour in IT/ gamedev? Except Easter Europeans in Europe (Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Czech etc.)? C'mon.

They're all contractors, with promise of full time. Of course, out of 100, maybe 5 would get hired full time. It's baked in that significant work is done with contractors.

toku

  • 𝕩𝕩𝕩
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2019, 04:23:04 PM »
Contractors working in an industry where if they didn't care about "vidya games" they'd be making at least 4-5 times that much on the low end.

Not excusing the behavior from the companies, but I really don't get it.

A friend of mine was full time at one of the MS studios was saying how most of the full time guys there weren't even really into video games. They were either animation/3d art wash-outs or programmers looking for any work basically.

chronovore

  • relapsed dev
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2019, 06:46:31 PM »
Yeah are they scraping the bottom of the barrel or something?
It's game dev in Chicago, so choices are limited. New hires are likely desperate to get a start and are willing to take a short-term hit to play the odds on landing a permanent position, or parlaying their work on a shipped title into a better position at a different company after they ship. The states' lotteries continuing success proves that humans are bad at math who oddly believe in their own exceptionalism.

Also, as a metaphor, I offer this article:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/09/bizarre-ant-colony-discovered-in-an-abandoned-polish-nuclear-weapons-bunker/

mormapope

  • WHADDYA HEAR, WHADDYA SAY
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2019, 09:06:38 PM »
 I have empathy for the majority of working adults in the US, I also feel a great big of anger at corporations, stockholders, and employers. I also understand many of the games I've enjoyed were made by stressed and angry people.

That being said, all throughout my childhood and upbringing, the creative process of making a videogame has seemed daunting, and all sorts of fucked up.

Reading how QA testing feels like the most boring shit possible. The amount of cancelled videogames. How disillusioned and warped prolific designers and directors are.

To me, videogames shouldn't be considered toys, videogames are essentially another pillar in the entertainment industry. Production, expectations, and the amount of dysfunction with videogame production, mimics movie and music production.

Wanting to be a key player in a big AAA studio seems as likely as being a successful actor or music mogul. You gotta do an insane amount of grinding and sucking anywhere in those two to get anywhere, why would it be different for videogames?
OH!

Rufus

  • 🙈🙉🙊
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2019, 11:28:05 PM »
It doesn't affect only the key players and those who want to be, sadly.

Cerveza mas fina

  • I don't care for Islam tbqh
  • filler
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2019, 12:26:06 AM »
Who earns as low as $12/ hour in IT/ gamedev? Except Easter Europeans in Europe (Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Czech etc.)? C'mon.

Game testers

Sonys own internal testers (guys that make sure your GoW, TLOU etc works) get paid between 8 and 9 pounds per hour.


bluemax

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2019, 11:42:48 PM »
I was thinking about it this morning, and the only time I haven't been in crunch for more than a few months in the last 10 years was when I was unemployed for 8 months.

As I approach my 37th birthday it gets more and more difficult for me to continue considering games as a career. It's just the same bullshit mistakes over and over by every company I work at.

Now that games are live operations, it is even worse. It's just a never ending treadmill.
NO

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2019, 05:16:07 AM »
I'm stunned that anyone is surprised that Netherrealms, the last vestige of Midway, has a toxic development culture.

Tell me about midway’s culture. I honestly am in the dark here.
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2019, 05:19:21 AM »
Contractors working in an industry where if they didn't care about "vidya games" they'd be making at least 4-5 times that much on the low end.

Not excusing the behavior from the companies, but I really don't get it. 

edit: Oh wait.. there's no fucking way anyone actually doing GAME DEV is making $12/ hour.. lol.. isn't that from an article about graphic artists?

It clearly mentions programmers in the article. Doesn’t matter the category.

Idk. Read the fucking article?
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2019, 05:32:23 AM »
I have empathy for the majority of working adults in the US, I also feel a great big of anger at corporations, stockholders, and employers. I also understand many of the games I've enjoyed were made by stressed and angry people.

That being said, all throughout my childhood and upbringing, the creative process of making a videogame has seemed daunting, and all sorts of fucked up.

Reading how QA testing feels like the most boring shit possible. The amount of cancelled videogames. How disillusioned and warped prolific designers and directors are.

To me, videogames shouldn't be considered toys, videogames are essentially another pillar in the entertainment industry. Production, expectations, and the amount of dysfunction with videogame production, mimics movie and music production.

Wanting to be a key player in a big AAA studio seems as likely as being a successful actor or music mogul. You gotta do an insane amount of grinding and sucking anywhere in those two to get anywhere, why would it be different for videogames?

Poor argument.

Other parts of the entertainment industry have unions.

While working film industry jobs, I have the choice between union or non union. You certainly mostly start out non-union but eventually you get options.

While it’s true you have to grind in other entertainment industries those are also more robust and offer benefits and active attempts to improve life for workers. In film industry for instance there’s a growing movement, pushed by actual film unions, that 12 hours should be the longest time on set.

Yet unions apparently aren’t an option for game devs.

Therefore, no, it’s not the same as any other entertainment industry. At least in theory.
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2019, 07:43:56 AM »
My bad. This is the article going around which is the context of what people have been discussing.

Nintex just fucked up like usual.

www.usgamer.net/amp/netherrealm-studios-crunch-mortal-kombat-injustice-2-contract
IYKYK

Tasty

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2019, 10:18:31 AM »
Time to unionize this whole god-forsaken industry.

thisismyusername

  • GunOn™! Apply directly to forehead!
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2019, 10:20:20 AM »
Who earns as low as $12/ hour in IT/ gamedev? Except Easter Europeans in Europe (Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Czech etc.)? C'mon.

Game testers

Sonys own internal testers (guys that make sure your GoW, TLOU etc works) get paid between 8 and 9 pounds per hour.

:yikes

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2019, 12:09:57 PM »
I think when you consider how much Sony is doing to increase representation in video games, on balance the testers are actually overpaid when you factor in the Social good they will experience.

Tasty

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2019, 12:49:36 PM »
Time to unionize this whole god-forsaken industry.

Meh, keep it to gaming then.   Don't want a union.

That is what I was proposing, yes.

I don't think unionizing the tech industry at large could ever be done though, both workers and employers would be against it. But the gaming industry has proven to be a different beast, with some unique issues that unionizing would go a ways toward solving (not a silver bullet though, obviously.)

Tasty

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2019, 01:20:04 PM »
I think if an alternative solution were available, market forces would have caused it to appear before now.

But I'm looking at it through the lens of the recent Hollywood agent-firing kerfuffle (which caused me to look more into the WGA in general), as well as the lens of a programmer. It feels like something has to change, and I don't see the publishers going along for any ride which includes higher pay and better conditions, so why not go for broke and force them to? :idont

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2019, 03:23:41 PM »
Meh, keep it to gaming then.   Don't want a union.
Aren't you petite bourgeois? :lol It's not for you!

That aside, I do laugh when people talk about unionizing tech workers. The very first thing they'd do is use their power to forbid hiring of H-1Bs.
每天生气

bluemax

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2019, 02:01:58 AM »
Time to unionize this whole god-forsaken industry.

I would be amazed if this fixed anything. I think we are close to people attempting it, but I just don't think it is going to matter. The publishers will just move work to countries without unions.
NO

VomKriege

  • Do the moron
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2019, 03:29:19 AM »
I just learned that Eugen (who makes the Wargame series and such) was apparently on strike a little over a year ago. Workforce since then has been more than halved with the latest round of staff laid offs suspected of being directed at some of the strikers.

There's an Union in France but I don't know if it has any clout. Unions in those sort of trades face some issues. It can be done, the USA are surprisingly good with this in the film industry despite the same sort of challenges (though probably helped by how centralised it was back then ?), I don't think it will happen at any rapid pace at all.

A string of big lawsuits would probably be more effective. In effect  you need to convince employers through coercion to step in proactively on keeping overtime in check. I suspect crunch has been internalized by employees to an extent and that given the choice quite a few would do it on their own / conforming to their coworkers / social group.
ὕβρις

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2019, 08:22:22 AM »
I think the film industry unions are the best parallel.

The one guy complaining about crunch was talking about 200 hour months in thst betherwprld article which really isn’t that bad. It’s 50 hours a week more or less. So that’s like.... 8-6 every day with breaks.

Yeah that sucks but if that’s all crunch is, call me when you are working some real overtime.

That said the layoff cycle seems like a huge problem and I would want a union to have some rules about how those situations are addressed and/or what minimum pay looks like for contract workers because of it.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2019, 08:26:40 AM »
Like I said before not every job has to be union. Film industry you have union jobs which are more coveted and non union jobs used for experience building.
IYKYK

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2019, 01:51:13 PM »
The film industry is borderline setup to avoid unions when it needs to. The Screen Guild hands out waivers like they're pedophiles with candy. Producer credits, personal services contracts and the like are all over the place to avoid paying someone for union work. The biggest actors can do things like take scale for a production because they're getting paid millions for non-acting things. Hollywood accounting assures that a production will never make money if it needs not to.

The game industry doesn't need to copy the entire thing for a separate try because it crosses over so much that everyone already knows the ways to avoid things. You'll never see a union in gaming shut down the entire industry like when the Writers Guild of America eliminated gobs of entire productions permanently in 2008.

The workers already have massive power in the gaming industry compared to what led to unionization in the film industry. Nobody is signing lifetime contracts, then getting benched from work, in gaming. You just go off and start your own studio if Ubisoft or EA or whoever is telling you to eat shit. You couldn't do that in film because the studios owned the theaters.

bluemax

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2019, 02:29:08 AM »
I think the film industry unions are the best parallel.

The one guy complaining about crunch was talking about 200 hour months in thst betherwprld article which really isn’t that bad. It’s 50 hours a week more or less. So that’s like.... 8-6 every day with breaks.

Yeah that sucks but if that’s all crunch is, call me when you are working some real overtime.

That said the layoff cycle seems like a huge problem and I would want a union to have some rules about how those situations are addressed and/or what minimum pay looks like for contract workers because of it.

Having spent too much time working with ex film industry people who want to get into the "interactive" business, all I can say is the way film people try to make games is terrible and even more stupid than the way games people try to make games. So attempting to apply the film industry model to the games industry just seems like a recipe for fucking disaster.

Games, and really software as a whole, are things that are kind of difficult sub divide into parts that can be worked upon by many different people. Even when you have people in the same company, who know the project and the tools and code base, there still ends up being ramp up time which often takes away time/focus from other people.

I can't just go, "hey Steve, I know you've only ever done AI for us and we hired you just to do AI, but we decided to do a massive UI overhaul in an unrealistically short amount of time, so now you're a UI programmer!" and not expect that to become an issue.

It makes me sad also that I can recall months where I absolutely worked upwards of 400 hours on a shitty piece of entertainment that few people were ever entertained by. The amount of my life and well being I've sacrificed for this is staggering in how depressing it is.
NO

VomKriege

  • Do the moron
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2019, 05:15:34 AM »
Can only speak for me but obviously the US "union" setup for film was only a point of comparison and not a suggestion to port it over 1:1.
ὕβρις

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2019, 05:37:56 AM »
No, it's actually a good one because it's the closest model to what we should expect from an actual drive to unionize game development. Like film there's not going to be a single union for "game developers" there will be separate ones for artists, for programmers, for designers, for sound people, etc. They already deal with the voice actors, writers, and so on that also work in Hollywood.

In film, this "works" because it's ingrained into the system at this point, and there's still a shit load of so-called unskilled physical manual labor being done. Building sets, setting up lighting, powering everything, and so on. You wouldn't really have this in game development, everyone's a "skilled" worker who will always have the out of just going off and starting their own company. You can increasingly do this in film of all things, so gaming doesn't even have a shot.

Rather than thinking that unionizing is a panacea, they should look to building up their own team culture in which they self police themselves and can unify on projects temporarily. People always got confused about Valve's management style stories and took the wrong lessons from it, the main thing was everyone feeling like they had buy in to developing the culture even if they weren't making the final decisions.

There's also a huge unspoken problem. Look at Star Citizen. Read the Schreier stories about BioWare and EA or Destiny. There isn't some nebulous upper management that's causing the problems. It's the direct project managers and producers, who are also designers and many other things on the project. These people are both management and labor. The paradigm doesn't fit. When the dude for Anthem just fucked off from BioWare and the project fell apart for two years before some other dude finally said "fuck this, we need to make decisions, this is in, this is out, etc." that was a management problem. But those people were BioWare labor too, not EA management. (EA management didn't help, but part of that was also that BioWare had zip to show them to know what the project was even supposed to be.)

You can't have the antagonism from collective bargaining because they're all effectively negotiating with themselves. And then negotiating at entire other levels with a separate management layer. How is the artist guild going to halt a project if the project lead is also the head artist? Why are other studios around the world going to support the artists in this action, especially when all the other guilds want their projects to not be held hostage by their artists?

And when we start looking at other companies. UbiSoft is the most obvious. They'll have six studios in six separate countries all working on the same game. If an office shuts down work completely due to one section within it, it's the same effect as EA got when Visceral and BioWare Montreal imploded at the same time and fell into Jade Raymond's Black Hole at Motive. There's no need to keep these expensive offices at that point.

This is why the international proletariat had to rise up, piecemealing it just allows the capitalists to play the proletariat against themselves rather than their becoming aware of their class consciousness that crosses all borders and unifies all the workers. :ussrcry

VomKriege

  • Do the moron
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2019, 06:30:04 AM »
Yeah that's the other thing, it's an international market. Film post production /VFX which more closely matches videogames is harder to police because there's shops all over the world, fierce competition (between companies and on the workforce), outsourcing and plenty of non permanent employment. It's not like a film set which are simple to shut down for immediate excruciating financial costs.

The US has a more stringent union setup in film but arguably Europeans have a better sense of their "entitlements" with regards to pay, leave days, etc... Ideally you'd have a trifecta of labor laws, unions and of a less Stakhanovist work culture but there's barely anywhere who have all that and some of the dominant discourse in Europe is pushing back on that (Uber society etc, etc...)

TLDR : creating healthier labor environments is hard.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 06:36:43 AM by VomKriege »
ὕβρις

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2019, 07:06:54 AM »
I do think the industry discussing management more publicly at least is a good step. Even if it's always been a thing unofficially. But ultimately they sorta need to do things like open up the concept of hard release dates. Even as they were crunching to meet the date they knew Anthem needed more work. They're planning so many games as services that have an initial release, then seasons. Start being flexible on those dates from the start, then you don't have to commit to them until the project is shaping up. You can do hype and marketing and everything so much faster these days. Look at how EA is handling the Respawn Star Wars game. It existed publicly as a title and that was it for like a year or more. Then they put out a trailer and finally dated it. They'll show the gameplay next month. It's single player only so they know what the scope is supposed to be looking like. Battlefield V even despite all its problems was first announced to released in six months with the delay which wouldn't have hurt it. And they knew from the start they were launching it at the wrong time and launching it "early access" before that date anyway. And with half the game unfinished.

They probably should have shoved that shit into January or March and Anthem into June or August. Especially when they knew the whole time they had Apex Legends sitting around. (Another game which they leaked a few days before, then announced, and released almost immediately. For free.) Digital games don't need the lead times that physical products did, but we're still on physical product cycles. Even though all the major games are living through early access, extended seasons and similar concepts.

Setting dates you can't meet gives you in many ways the same effect on your workforce as years on titles you never release. Visceral and Motive working for three years on a Star Wars game that never came out and shutting down the studios just to turn around and have Respawn produce what they claimed were the reasons they did the former is effectively as bad as if they crunched to put out the Visceral game. Those BioWare stories are all about the loss of faith, interest, desire, etc. not from crunching but from a totally listless development with no clear plans or goals. The "crunch period" was almost welcomed on Andromeda and Anthem because they at least had something they were clearly working towards. Crunch sucks but I'm not sure it's inherently worse than three years or more of endless development that restarts constantly and bleeds people as much or more as a formal "crunch" period does.

Note: I am not a developer, even like stufte, or that monster Ed Boon. Merely internet know-it-all trash.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 07:14:08 AM by benjipwns »

headwalk

  • brutal deluxe
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2019, 07:47:38 AM »
there's a very specific awfulness about working at a computer for 12+ hours a day that makes just about any other job on the planet seem preferable as long as it involves moving around using your actual human body.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2019, 08:52:14 AM »
I'm not going to sit here and analyze what exactly drove Ed Boon to his violent deranged crimes and that theory is as good as any, we should consider it, but the main thing right now is bringing closure to the families of his victims and improving the details on the violence in the upcoming DLC which is what they would have wanted

headwalk

  • brutal deluxe
  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2019, 11:30:08 AM »
i'm on a weird job where i'm getting a flat rate for churning out a bunch of visuals for a big event. each one is roughly twice my day rate but it's a complete dice roll whether you're going to get a treatment that you can knock up in a half a day or the one where they basically want avatar.

also leaves you wide open to a nice reaming if they suddenly decide to change the stage layout (joke's on them because i did fuck all yesterday anyway) or something like that.

Oblivion

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2019, 07:01:36 AM »
$12/hr for an artist in Chicago in 2019 fucking criminal. Even I was getting $11/hr as a goddamned game tester all the way back in fricken 2008!

bluemax

  • Senior Member
Re: Crunch time thread of crunchy good times
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2019, 12:07:02 AM »
No, it's actually a good one because it's the closest model to what we should expect from an actual drive to unionize game development. Like film there's not going to be a single union for "game developers" there will be separate ones for artists, for programmers, for designers, for sound people, etc. They already deal with the voice actors, writers, and so on that also work in Hollywood.

In film, this "works" because it's ingrained into the system at this point, and there's still a shit load of so-called unskilled physical manual labor being done. Building sets, setting up lighting, powering everything, and so on. You wouldn't really have this in game development, everyone's a "skilled" worker who will always have the out of just going off and starting their own company. You can increasingly do this in film of all things, so gaming doesn't even have a shot.

Rather than thinking that unionizing is a panacea, they should look to building up their own team culture in which they self police themselves and can unify on projects temporarily. People always got confused about Valve's management style stories and took the wrong lessons from it, the main thing was everyone feeling like they had buy in to developing the culture even if they weren't making the final decisions.

There's also a huge unspoken problem. Look at Star Citizen. Read the Schreier stories about BioWare and EA or Destiny. There isn't some nebulous upper management that's causing the problems. It's the direct project managers and producers, who are also designers and many other things on the project. These people are both management and labor. The paradigm doesn't fit. When the dude for Anthem just fucked off from BioWare and the project fell apart for two years before some other dude finally said "fuck this, we need to make decisions, this is in, this is out, etc." that was a management problem. But those people were BioWare labor too, not EA management. (EA management didn't help, but part of that was also that BioWare had zip to show them to know what the project was even supposed to be.)

You can't have the antagonism from collective bargaining because they're all effectively negotiating with themselves. And then negotiating at entire other levels with a separate management layer. How is the artist guild going to halt a project if the project lead is also the head artist? Why are other studios around the world going to support the artists in this action, especially when all the other guilds want their projects to not be held hostage by their artists?

And when we start looking at other companies. UbiSoft is the most obvious. They'll have six studios in six separate countries all working on the same game. If an office shuts down work completely due to one section within it, it's the same effect as EA got when Visceral and BioWare Montreal imploded at the same time and fell into Jade Raymond's Black Hole at Motive. There's no need to keep these expensive offices at that point.

This is why the international proletariat had to rise up, piecemealing it just allows the capitalists to play the proletariat against themselves rather than their becoming aware of their class consciousness that crosses all borders and unifies all the workers. :ussrcry

Except it would have to be even more stupidly specialized for programmers and artists.

A union for people who only know Unity.
A union for physics programmers.
A union for character artists.
A union for prop artists.
A union for UI artists.
A union for tech artists who only write tools but don't do rigging.
A union for tech artists who write shaders but not tools.

etc etc etc.
NO