Author Topic: Ice is full on raiding 10 cities tomorrow. Also a keen Filter derail. Raydahs.  (Read 12507 times)

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BisMarckie

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Kara, you can‘t call Luxembourg a pretend country while being the biggest San Marino fanboy I have ever seen on the internet. ::)

if you're telling me a country that still exists today because they let giuseppe garibaldi couch surf there for awhile is a pretend country then i don't know what to tell you :hmph

The virgin Netherlands vs. the chad San Marino
-made into a giant dad by Napoleon.        -got free shit from Napoleon and remained independent
-Lost territories to Belgium    -Didn‘t want to expand
- surrendered to the Germans after 5 days.   - Was at war with Germany for over 30 years
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 05:25:19 PM by BisMarckie »

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
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-didn't have a democratic state until it was invaded by France and underwent one of its many occupations and replacements

-probably has the oldest constitution still in effect today

VomKriege

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As a special administrative region of China it is independent in literally every way except for matters of defense and diplomacy

Managing your international diplomacy and national defense are pretty essential markers of being an actual independent country, so... Technically Monaco has its own self defense force.
ὕβρις

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Sorry I'm coming back to this again but I just wanted to comment on what illegal immigration and work actually do to a country.

Every illegal immigrant is hurting the country he resides in, he is undercutting legal workers with his low wages, driving incomes down of those already on low incomes, not paying into the system either. Millions of jobs are lost this way. It undermines the entire system.

Of course legal migration can also do this but at least the government and thus the people can set minimum (living) wages.

People that employ illegal immigrants should face the harshest penalties and sentences.

team filler

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I feel like I just faced some of the harshest penalties and sentences from reading your post
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Well get ready for 4 more years of Trump if the dems can't get their heads around that open borders and universal healthcare and expansion of state services don't go together. This is the real issue not lbgqt rights.

Maybe the US can have a union with Mexico and Canada and have some gleichschaltung in laws so that it can function idk.

Good luck.

Mandark

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Every illegal immigrant is hurting the country he resides in, he is undercutting legal workers with his low wages, driving incomes down of those already on low incomes, not paying into the system either. Millions of jobs are lost this way. It undermines the entire system.

Of course legal migration can also do this but at least the government and thus the people can set minimum (living) wages.

You realize this is actually an argument for open borders, right?

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How?

Maybe if you are a corporation yes.

If you are a socialist that wants universal healthcare and living wages no.

What I would like the EU to do by the way is to have more strict import rules that go further then safety/enviroment. I would like to see enforced that products imported are made by workers on living wages, with healthcare, holidays, pension plans, time off etc.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 02:38:55 AM by Premium Lager »

Mandark

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How?

You say that immigrants hurt the country by accepting low wages, but with legal immigrants this can be prevented by applying a minimum wage.

If that is the problem, then you can solve it by making all the illegal immigrants legal.

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Except if you do that you say that the borders are open. And then you wont be able to have things like universal healthcare.

The solution is legal migration in limited numbers or a union with a lower wage country and synchronization of laws.

Mandark

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We've never had universal healthcare.

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But you do have a limited system of social welfare and many are pushing for universal healthcare.

This is the kind of muddled thinking dems present now.

You can't have it all.

Mandark

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Which Dems are proposing open borders?

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If you want to make illegal immigrants legal you are saying its ok to come in, thus open borders.  That's the signal you are sending to everyone out there.


curly

  • cultural maoist
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Genuine question: what is the current prevailing opinion on how undocumented people affect the government's finances

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Mandark I know you are a psychologist right? Or counselor?

If you reward someone for bad behaviour what signal is that giving?

If I tell my kid, no dessert unless you eat dinner, but give them dessert anyway when they don't finish dinner... What will they do next time? What will their siblings do? The rule of eat dinner or no dessert doesn't exist if I don't enforce it.

Seems really basic stuff to me.

Mandark

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Genuine question: what is the current prevailing opinion on how undocumented people affect the government's finances

Like most of these questions it depends on how you define everything.

The biggest chunk of government spending on undocumented immigrants, IIRC, is for education, so if you project those kids as mostly staying in the US and working the math looks a lot different. I know undocumented immigrants are good for the Social Security trust fund because they won't be able to claim whatever FICA they pay using bogus SSNs.

Likewise, the net effect on the economy is really hard to tease out empirically but the whole "costs millions of jobs" rhetoric is transparently silly.

curly

  • cultural maoist
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Mandark I know you are a psychologist right? Or counselor?

If you reward someone for bad behaviour what signal is that giving?

If I tell my kid, no dessert unless you eat dinner, but give them dessert anyway when they don't finish dinner... What will they do next time? What will their siblings do? The rule of eat dinner or no dessert doesn't exist if I don't enforce it.

Seems really basic stuff to me.

So basic that to use it as a model to explain the world is fucking idiotic

Mandark

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Mandark I know you are a psychologist right? Or counselor?

If you reward someone for bad behaviour what signal is that giving?

If I tell my kid, no dessert unless you eat dinner, but give them dessert anyway when they don't finish dinner... What will they do next time? What will their siblings do? The rule of eat dinner or no dessert doesn't exist if I don't enforce it.

Seems really basic stuff to me.

yes this is why I give you shit for your bad posts

Mandark

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Alternate parenting metaphor:

If you have made it clear to your children that you will permanently disown them if you catch them engaging in behavior you find immoral (using drugs, having premarital sex, gambling, etc.) then if they do any of these things and find themselves in a bad situation, they will be much more likely to hide it from you, and the situation could get much worse since they are cut off from the people best positioned to help them.

curly

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If the fashies ever came back to power I'd just collaborate  :smug
.

imagining nintex showing up to fascist hq to volunteer and getting iced because he's too dumb to be any use and smiling to myself

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Making illegals legal is showing to everyone south of the border that you can come to the US any way you want and you can stay. This means open borders.

There is no other way around it.

Alternate parenting metaphor:

If you have made it clear to your children that you will permanently disown them if you catch them engaging in behavior you find immoral (using drugs, having premarital sex, gambling, etc.) then if they do any of these things and find themselves in a bad situation, they will be much more likely to hide it from you, and the situation could get much worse since they are cut off from the people best positioned to help them.

The goal is to stop illegal migration, not to make life better for illegal migrants, so this analogy doesn't work.

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Not directed at anyone here btw, but dems online wonder why poor uneducated folks vote for evil republicans that want to curb healthcare and shit.

Its because they are more worried about illegal migrants and jobs they are competing with them for. Yeah illegal migrants are not competing for fancy university level jobs because you cant do them illegally, but these poor uneducated folks just need any job. Their direct competition is these migrants.

If there is 1 million illegal dishwashers doing it for 4 bucks an hour then there is a lot less jobs for legal workers, not 1:1 but large amounts.

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Are illegal immigrants the culprit or the biggest problem according to me? Not at all. Unchecked capitalism is.

BisMarckie

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We don't want the German immigrants back. :hmph

Especially after seeing what they call authentic German bread. Traitors!  :bolo
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 07:12:37 AM by BisMarckie »

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The danger/shittiness of doing this illegal activity should have nothing to do with whether its ok.

Robbery can also be dangerous, so thats ok too? Bu bu they want to do honest work! No they dont because they know before setting off all their work will be illegal.

Idk why u even bring it up?

Everyone knows these people make great sacrifices, but that has absolutely zero procent to with what we are talking about.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 08:39:05 AM by Premium Lager »

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I mean fair play for taking a chance though!

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That obviously is a whole other ballgame and disgusting.

Dems should co-opt deportations and tough speak on illegal immigrants, but say it has to be done humane. Attack the treatment of those being deported, not deportations themselves or the hard stance.

This would swing a lot of voters.

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Those Ukrainians are on legal temporary working permits (mostly). Great.

And yes I'm a legal immigrant.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 10:20:31 AM by Premium Lager »

Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
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The US could quickly solve the immigration issue by punishing the employer of illegal immigrants. But they won't because the "job creators" want open borders.
©ZH

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
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Not directed at anyone here btw, but dems online wonder why poor uneducated folks vote for evil republicans that want to curb healthcare and shit.

Its because they are more worried about illegal migrants and jobs they are competing with them for. Yeah illegal migrants are not competing for fancy university level jobs because you cant do them illegally, but these poor uneducated folks just need any job. Their direct competition is these migrants.

If there is 1 million illegal dishwashers doing it for 4 bucks an hour then there is a lot less jobs for legal workers, not 1:1 but large amounts.

Trump not cleaning up (or even splitting the vote) in union households or ones with income <$50,000 would seem to undermine your claim.

Your prole whispering filtered through inductive reasoning also overestimates how much the "white working class" actually participates in elections. I'm sure you'll tell us this will be because no one is doing anything about immigration and not, say, that no one in the political class cares if these communities fall into oblivion (which is also the result of immigration, I'm sure!).

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
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Me linking the Center for American Progress has to be Mandark linking Libcom tier, surely. :doge

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Considering the election was lost by margins in a few states it seems weird you dismiss the white non educated voters.

That said you might have a better view of things in the US then me.

kingv

  • Senior Member
Considering the election was lost by margins in a few states it seems weird you dismiss the white non educated voters.

That said you might have a better view of things in the US then me.

I think people are retroactively forgetting about Trumps rhetoric about “fixing” unfair trade deals and “protecting American manufacturing”.

Hillary didn’t really have a satisfying answer for that. “We are going to bring a bunch of high tech jobs and offer job retraining” doesn’t really make sense for a full grown ass man”. Especially when a lot of times taking some manufacturing job and replacing it with call center work means big pay cuts.

In some sense the TPP was kind of the right answer, but as usual, whatever we negotiated to protect jobs and workers was really just a fig leaf, and also the Democratic messaging was awful.

Trump had good messaging of “we’re going to take it to China, because their dumping is taking your jobs”, but his policy proscriptions for that are all fucked up.

BisMarckie

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Is this some glen/shosta collaboration post?

team filler

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*****

jakefromstatefarm

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Millions died over those lines being crossed. They're immaterial, but they're not imaginary.
i think this is both i) too strong wrt to a border’s justification, which is at least partly discursive and conventional (like, it’s not a fact about the natural world); and ii) too weak wrt it’s real world consequences, which are clearly material.
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Ultimately and in the abstract, is a political entity sovereign over a territory in its right to deny entry to people for whatever reasons ? I don't think I've often heard that clarified by those opposing nationalist arguments, the left in particular struggle with that.
left deontological:
1. In perfect conditions, everyone would agree to not live in a society subject to a voluntarist/absolutist state
2. In non-voluntarist/absolutist states, like constitutional democracies, all policy is subject to change based on the expressions of the will of the governed (or something like this, this is a really mangled phrase)
3. In constitutional democracies, states can’t affect policy -immigration or otherwise- for whatever reason.

Left consequentialist:
1. Nativist attitudes and policies create Pareto inefficient outcomes
2. We should optimize Pareto efficient outcomes (or whatever your favorite way of measuring utility is)
3. Nativist attitudes and policies should be avoided

neoliberal answer:
1. If capital is allowed to move freely across national boundaries, then labor should too
2. Capital is currently allowed to move freely across national boundaries
3. Labor should be allowed to move freely across national boundaries

Additionally, you can argue negatively, e.g., if the nationalist’s argument at any point relies on something like national/ethnic/racial naturalism (‘the nation’ is a simple fact of the natural world and exerts some kind of mind-independent causal influence) then it’s easily countered by just denying the premise


spoiler (click to show/hide)
the real answer here is: states are bad —> we shouldn’t have any
[close]

Likewise, the net effect on the economy is really hard to tease out empirically but the whole "costs millions of jobs" rhetoric is transparently silly.
Last time I looked into this the general consensus was that low skill labor slightly depresses wages in the target industry and was an overall slight net positive in the economy at large, and that’s with factoring in consumption of public services. And that’s just short term.

Tripon

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If you really think a border needs to be protected by physical walls and guards, then we should build a wall and heavily staff the northern border as well. But one of the issues is that we don't know how many Canadians are within the U.S., just that they are over staying their Visas.



https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Canadians-top-the-list-of-visitors-overstaying-13150776.php

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
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Considering the election was lost by margins in a few states it seems weird you dismiss the white non educated voters.

That said you might have a better view of things in the US then me.

I don't dismiss them; however, the premise that they're a monolithic bloc and one that participates in massive numbers is something I don't see any evidence for. In Texas (an epicenter of the kind of far-right politics you describe) the 2016 participation rate was less than 52% even after a participation spike of several points.

Texas and Arizona are border states with a history of very right wing politics yet as you can see neither has a particularly engaged "white working class" even when they could vote for Donald Trump.

In Wisconsin and Michigan you saw participation rates of 65% and 60% respectively. This could possibly support your hypothesis in very specific battleground states.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 03:46:24 PM by Kara »

kingv

  • Senior Member
Hillary didn’t really have a satisfying answer for that. “We are going to bring a bunch of high tech jobs and offer job retraining” doesn’t really make sense for a full grown ass man”. Especially when a lot of times taking some manufacturing job and replacing it with call center work means big pay cuts.
Right, Hillary was the only Democratic candidate who wouldn't lie about manufacturing and she got punished for it. We don't deserve her.

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In some sense the TPP was kind of the right answer, but as usual, whatever we negotiated to protect jobs and workers was really just a fig leaf, and also the Democratic messaging was awful.
TPP wouldn't have had any meaningful impact on the manufacturing sector, it was mostly an agreement between developed economies to ease business relations, protect sacrosanct IP lordship, and also secure a soft-power counterweight to Chinese influence. Spend well over 250 years knocking down barriers in Asia, dominating every country, dropping nuclear weapons on Japan, killing over 200,000 of my people in the Philippines, only to have some boomer asshole blow it all over a meaningless number at the precise moment in history where discipline was most important, brehs.

Hillary didn’t lie about it, but also never really tried to have a decent answer.

“I’m not gonna lie, you’re fucked :dice” is terrible retail politics and you shouldn’t expect anyone to vote for you on an “accept your shitty fate” message.

thisismyusername

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Poles talking about US politics. :kermit

Trent Dole

  • the sharpest tool in the shed
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Some Poles greeted our current leader with confederate flags when he visited. :doge
Hi