Someone help me understand the appeal of Jay-Z. I've tried man and dude is wack

[Himu]

Ether was the better diss, Takeover is the better song.

The real appeal to Hov to me was his character. Particularly in Reasonable Doubt to Blueprint where he's just a pompous ass. One of the best heels rap ever had. Also dude is absolutely skilled on the mic, it feels like "real rap" backpackers always seem to ignore that he's a better MC than most of their favs.

I don't particularly like blueprint as an album either, outside of Reasonable Doubt and Black Album he doesn't really have a great album though his weaker ones tend to have stand out tracks regardless. I've said this before and I'll say it again, if we're going to bury rappers for weak discographies, then nobody is safe.

This is actually why Nas is my favorite rapper. Guy has Illmatic, It Was Written, Stillmatic, Lost Tapes, God's Son, Distance Relatives. Arguably Life Is Good which is an incredible aged rapper talking about old man shit album. That's far more great to classic albums than most MC's.

I'm not really much of a back packer tbh. To me there's a difference between backpack rap and conscious rap.

And I'm not biting on the "real rap" tip either. But at the very least speak on the issues every once in a while. I can't think of a single positive black song from Jay. But hey, I'm going through his discog.

For the record, my GOAT is actually 2pac. Compare 2pac to Jay in terms of variety. Jay gets shat on. It took Nas years to catch up to 2pac in terms of meaningful songs which Pac accomplished in only 5 years. FIVE. YEARS. The GOAT. You can say that Jay rhymes better, but this is music buddy. What matters most is the meaning. The artistry. What does Jay have to say or express about the human condition? That's what' I'm interested in. What's your message?

The core of why I think Jay is okay but not great and definitely not a legend is his take on Kanye. Dude said Kanye couldn't make it as a rapper because he wasn't a street hustler. He said all of them were street hustlers growing up and Kanye wasn't. That's how vapid Jay is. That's how limited his view of rap is. He's about the image. Jay isn't an artist. Oh, he has the capability. But ultimately he's a business man. Now whether this matters or not depends on you.

But again, it has nothing to do with backpacker vs "real rap". We co-signed Wu in this thread. Would you call Wu backpacker?

I mean, let's be honest.

This is shit I want.



What do YOU? Have to SAY? About the HUMAN CONDITION?

ART.

And this is why I'll always prefer Ye to Jay. Kanye is the closest to Nas in terms of good to great albums tbh for me at least.

Also imo the greatest hip hop song of all time.



GOAT

[Himu]

It's also hilarious to me how on Takeover Jay takes shots at Nas for having made only 4 albums in a decade.

Truly showing his mentality for quantity > quality. At that point dude had four albums, five if you consider the Roc La Familia album. And they were all made pretty much back to back to back. And only one was considered truly great or a classic. Meanwhile Nas had Illmatic and It Was Written. I am is solid too.

Once again outing himself to be more about the game than about the art.

[Himu]

how bizarre to decry jay on the basis of his constructing silly arguments about what a rapper or rap as art is and then doing the same to jay.

We can keep goin bruh

[Tuckers Law]

We can keep goin bruh

Heh, if we want to talk about rap artists keeping it too real...

[EchoRin]

Or artists who have no love for homo thugs...

[Himu]

Again, my opinions on jay have nothing to do with Nas. The only rapper I have actual Stan beef with is Big. I like Big but he dissed Pac after his death so I can never love him nor respect him as a person because I view him as a fat ass bitch made snake even if it took me two decades to admit LAD is better than All Eyez. RIP.

Also, I'm going through Jay's discog in earnest. Been listening to him the most as I get back into hip hop full time.

I never listened to anything past BPII in the paat.

[Himu]

I don't get why people put such a huge emphasis on technicality in hip hop. Start happening in the 2000's. As if technicality and mutli's makes some a good emcee. Reminds me of that dude Jin flopping once he was in the studio. That's not to say that technicality isn't important but people act like it's the ONLY important factor in judging a rapper's body of work. It's like a completely generation between those who grew up listening to rap in the 90's and the people making GOAT lists on SOHH in the 2000's/coli in the 2010's.

Read this earlier this year and it perfectly articulates what I'm talking about.

https://theundefeated.com/features/2pacs-birthday-goats-and-how-we-get-hip-hop-wrong/

[kingv]

PAPOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!

[Himu]

PAPOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!

i remember when sohh was buzzing about this nicca before he dropped an album nearly a damn decade later. lmao

I was like "when is papoose going to drop his album?" as early as 2005.

[Mandark]

It's also hilarious to me how on Takeover Jay takes shots at Nas for having made only 4 albums in a decade.

Truly showing his mentality for quantity > quality.

excuse me

[agrajag]

this whole thread is cursed

[thisismyusername]

Where is PD when we need him?

Also NAS LOST.

[agrajag]

didn't Nas abuse his ex wife? And the worst Jay Z has done is say some misogynistic stuff on some tracks? On that basis alone Jay Z >  Nas

[Leadbelly]

People like different things;   some people are the same about rock music.  OMG LISTEN TO THIS GUITAR WORK, DO YOU REALIZE HOW DIFFICULT THAT IS?

Uh.. sure.. but it sounds like shit.

Hip-hop evolved in both directions;  I like technical rap, and I like mumble rap.

Unless it is Jeff Beck. He plays things that seem simple, but technically really difficult. And he always sounds amazing. Also one of those guitarists who has a sound that is completely unique to them. You know it is Jeff Beck just by listening to it.

[Himu]

didn't Nas abuse his ex wife? And the worst Jay Z has done is say some misogynistic stuff on some tracks? On that basis alone Jay Z >  Nas

He denies it and says she's using the things she did to him. This year they're having a public custody battle. She attempted to move with his son to fucking Colombia. Thankfully got the matter settled. I wouldn't entirely take Kelis' word without the full facts.

Also the fact that you are bringing up in this is extremely reaching and shows how triggered you are. 2pac didn't stop a gang rape and went to jail for a sexual crime. Doesn't stop Pac from being the GOAT. Many rappers have sold drugs. Not shit like weed but crack and other drugs that actually kill people. Rappers aren't perfect and this is a wack ass argument to use. Esch used a better argument against Nas. But at the same time he ignores the good Nas has done too such as investing black youth programs and apps that teach teens financial literacy.

Stay pressed.

Where is PD when we need him?

Also NAS LOST.

Hilarious you ask for PD as if PD would cosign a post that says Nas lost which says how much you know about PD.

PD, like myself, is a Nas and Pac stan.

[Himu]

Anyways still listening to Jay meanwhile branching into modern hip hop.

I've been accumulating a list and relistening to stuff from this decade.

I've had this song stuck in my head.



Was always my favorite song from takeover but I'm addicted to it now

[Tuckers Law]

Yeah, I seem to recall reading about their custody battle earlier in the year and it all looked like a fucking mess of things, where Kelis was even held in contempt of court for pulling some shit.  I really wouldn’t be surprised if when they were together Nas and Kelis were that couple/pair that would both regularly escalate arguments into physical fights.

Always sad to see kids mixed up in two people who are wrong for each other 

[Himu]

Kelis' behavior is why I'm skeptical of her claims Nas beat her.

[benjipwns]

You can say that Jay rhymes better, but this is music buddy. What matters most is the meaning. The artistry. What does Jay have to say or express about the human condition? That's what' I'm interested in. What's your message?

The core of why I think Jay is okay but not great and definitely not a legend is his take on Kanye. Dude said Kanye couldn't make it as a rapper because he wasn't a street hustler. He said all of them were street hustlers growing up and Kanye wasn't. That's how vapid Jay is. That's how limited his view of rap is. He's about the image. Jay isn't an artist. Oh, he has the capability. But ultimately he's a business man.

[agrajag]

yes Cindi, I, the Jay Z super fan, am extremely triggered by you right now 

[thisismyusername]

Hilarious you ask for PD as if PD would cosign a post that says Nas lost which says how much you know about PD.

PD, like myself, is a Nas and Pac stan.

Hon, who said I wanted him to cosign my post. I just wanted him in here with Esch and your discussion.

[Coax]

Also imo the greatest hip hop song of all time.

For Tupac, most of my favorite material of his are the OG mixes and unpublished tracks. It's interesting to see how much the vibe changed posthumously for various tracks. Until the End of Time was such a radical shift, going from a laid back Stevie Wonder chorus with the words changed and original instrumentation to an entirely different and darker vibe (tbf I like both, the posthumous release was an earlier enough adaptation to not be as anachronistic as some, though I prefer listening to the original).

[Himu]

[Himu]

Also imo the greatest hip hop song of all time.

For Tupac, most of my favorite material of his are the OG mixes and unpublished tracks. It's interesting to see how much the vibe changed posthumously for various tracks. Until the End of Time was such a radical shift, going from a laid back Stevie Wonder chorus with the words changed and original instrumentation to an entirely different and darker vibe (tbf I like both, the posthumous release was an earlier enough adaptation to not be as anachronistic as some, though I prefer listening to the original).

I'll be honest.

I haven't listened to a single posthumous 2pac album besides Makaveli and Greatest hits because I do not trust other peoples vision of 2pac's artistry and who he was as a person. I don't like how they use posthumous verses of Big and Pac and put modern day rappers, like 50 Cent or something, on a track that 2pac probably wouldn't even cosign. It feels wrong to me and I've never bothered with any of that shit because of it.

I'm not sure if that concern is misplaced or not but it's how I feel.

[Himu]

Listened to post BP2 Jay for the first time and he really comes into his own. The run of Black Album, Kingdom Come, and American Gangster is incredible. American Gangster could be a classic. Listened to it three times in a row.

Seems I was right and older Jay > younger Jay

[Phoenix Dark]

Where is PD when we need him?

Also NAS LOST.

I'm as disgusted as you.
 

I'm a Nas stan. Young PD once told some HS friends that Braveheart Party was better than H To The Izzo. I'm a solidified Esobar cigarillo. THAT BEING SAID, as a grown man who has left the stan wars behind (for the most part)...I can't imagine hating on Jay like this. Are you saying Reasonable Doubt isn't a great album? He doesn't have the best voice - hell, Jay himself has said he didn't like his voice - but...he can rap. Very well. And he has a lot of songs and albums that are good. I can see not liking Hov's mainstream tracks, and lord knows he has the greatest PR team in his pocket...but come on. D'Evils isn't great? 99 Problems isn't great?

[Himu]

I said flat out that RD is great in the OP.

His Volumes series vary in quality.

BP is good.

BP2 is highly flawed.

That was the extent of my Jay knowledge besides certain singles (99 problems) and features.

Unfortunately his features always made me never want to check out his music. He had a tendency of ruining songs.

Again, this has nothing to do with Nas or Stan wars. I legitimately do not fuck with some of his music.

After this song why would any sensible hip hop fan want to listen to more Jay?



My cursory 19 year old opinion of Jay after this song,"this nicca is vapid af, gonna turn a spiritual song about himself. Boy has the content variety of a bag of M&M's" as I put in my MF Doom CD in my car stereo.

Around CD dropped I checked him out to learn beyond my casual knowledge of him. This was in 2004/2005. At the time, he only had RD, Vol 1-3, BP1 and 2 and Black Album. I liked RD the most and thought it was the only great album of the bunch, which I consider a classic. Never bothered to listen to Black Album because BP2 was so bad.

So I haven't bothered to listen to him over a decade. I didn't listen to Throne, despite being a Kanye fan, specifically because it was tied with Jay-Z.

[Phoenix Dark]

It's 2019, you know I don't be reading long ass posts. 

What about The Black Album. It's a great album. Did you listen to his last album? It's right up your alley. It has flaws that I won't go into here yet, but it's definitely an album where he shows growth lyrically.

I'd be curious to get your perspective on Kingdom Come. Perhaps the most panned Jay album, but I thought it was at least interesting and an interesting transition to more personal songs.

[Himu]

Written right above your post.

Listened to post BP2 Jay for the first time and he really comes into his own. The run of Black Album, Kingdom Come, and American Gangster is incredible. American Gangster could be a classic. Listened to it three times in a row.

Seems I was right and older Jay > younger Jay

His content variety grows the older he gets.

I've heard about his album 444 and it sounds my kinda hype and I'm excited exploring the rest of his discog and seeing him grow as an artist beyond braggadocio.

[Phoenix Dark]

[Himu]

Another example.

When I was a hip hop head my main source of finding new rappers I fuck with was gauging their verses on features. Heard Lupe on Kanye's LR and consumed Food and Liquor like it was my diet. I really like Kanye and Jay would be on his albums as a guest a lot. And every single damn time, I was disappointed with Jay's verses. It was where I could understand their quality on technical level but they never hit me on an emotional level.



I mean, he has great lines.

I had to get off the boat so I could walk on water



Until you realize that he made a verse about himself - AGAIN - on a song about BLOOD DIAMONDS. So when I hear that, it tells me his limitations as an artist. In almost every feature, he just rapped about himself. Bragging is nice, but not when it's all you have. Then I checked out his albums and it wasn't much different (with few exceptions).

Given all this it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that Jay-Z is an overrated hack depending on what you look for in music.

Now that song PD posted, Marcy Me, is great. It truly shows Jay leveled up his game and my exploring his discog won't be for naught.

[Phoenix Dark]

Lets not forget Kanye didn't wrap about that shit either. Lupe remixed the song and made it about blood diamonds. Then Kanye released his own remix that addressed the topic (plus the Hov verse). I kinda wonder if Hov's verse was initially supposed to be on the original version because like you said...it doesn't fit the remix.

I remember us talking about this like 15 years ago lmao.

[Himu]

Lets not forget Kanye didn't wrap about that shit either. Lupe remixed the song and made it about blood diamonds. Then Kanye released his own remix that addressed the topic (plus the Hov verse). I kinda wonder if Hov's verse was initially supposed to be on the original version because like you said...it doesn't fit the remix.

I remember us talking about this like 15 years ago lmao.

I give a pass to Kanye because he rapped about so much different things.

I really wanted to drop out of college so CD was like my bible for instance.

And yeah we did lmao

[Himu]

Been listening to Jay non stop for a month now.

444 and Magna Carts are classics. I don't get  The Throne but it's ok.

I legitimately think Jay is having an actively positive experience on my mindset. Every day is a hustle as I put a lot of work into my career change and developing necessary skills as fast as possible.

I never realized hip hop could give the listener such confidence. There's songs like They Try To Bring Me Down by Kanye or It's your World by Common but not to the degree Jay inspires.

[Himu]

I apologize for my narrow mindedness in this thread

[Himu]

Favorite Jay lyric?

[toku]

I really recommend making a playlist out of motivational rap songs. I remember taking the bus at like 4 in the morning dead tired to work listening to this:

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

ain't nobody gave a shit/ and that's why we grind weight

 

+3 to all stats

[HardcoreRetro]

   

This always cheers me up.

[Mr. Nobody]

Why am I not surprised this thread came from a "hiphop died in 1996 with Tupac" type 

[Himu]

Didn't say that at all. I've given dap to many rappers in this thread. You're just stupid.