Give salient reasons to still believe in America

[Himu]

I'm considering not voting in the 2020 election. I'm also making serious plans to leave the country for good.

What are reasons to believe in America?

"Progress is slow" and "you don't hate a seat at the table if you don't offer your voice" yadda yadda yadda. Except, I have never had a voice even while I am at the table.

What is the point of democracy if it limits you to only a few options? What is the point of Democracy if all of our politicians are bought by corporate interests?

Please offer your best arguments for staying and voting. And not the pap I've heard the last twenty years about "progress is slow" or whatever moral parables that I simply do not have the patience for.

Also cap it off with why you personally believe in America.

If you don't believe in America or are non-American, please offer insight on why your country is better than America on the issues I have brought up in this OP.

Thank you 

[team filler]

you can become one of the rich blacks who turns the whites against capitalism

[OnlyRegret]

the NDP managed to establish a foothold in Alberta of all places

[Nintex]

I've always believed in America as one of our most important allies in the world.
At school we learn that the Americans freed us from the Nazi's and that's pretty bad ass.

Plus there's like all the awesome stuff like technology, video games, music and movies that comes out of the US.
Overall it doesn't surprise me that your politics morphed into reality TV when it was trending that way during the Obama years already.

Also I'm not surprised by the divisiveness the media keeps crying about. That has always been there because it is a huge landmass.
Unless you want some North Korean or Chinese centralized state, there will also be a difference in opinions, progress and wealth in a big ass country.
Even in The Netherlands we have 'rural' and 'urban' areas with an entirely different set of values and ideals. And for us that's like a 30 minute to 1 hour drive between the fault lines.

[Himu]

You're never going to be satisfied with what you want (this changes every year or so) from politics.

Good reasoning not to vote.

If I vote, I'm emotionally invested. If I don't vote, I can no longer care.

This is a pretty compelling argument.

[Himu]

You're never going to be satisfied with what you want (this changes every year or so) from politics.

Good reasoning not to vote.

If I vote, I'm emotionally invested. If I don't vote, I can no longer care.

This is a pretty compelling argument.

I agree, I mean I think reading about politics and talking about it has only brought you unhappiness and lots of long angry posts. The way you lash out while talking about it isn't really healthy. As the content artisans at MEANS TV recently joked,  might be time to try out being a Diogenes style cynic.

It's not reading politics that brings me unhappiness. It's not having my voice matter and the hypocrisy of it in-groups that makes me unhappy with it.

I won't say that everyone shouldn't vote, but for me, it just brings unpleasantness. This doesn't mean that I shouldn't follow politics. But when I'm directly involved I get invested to an unhealthy degree.

[Himu]

Cindi you aren't moving out of the country.

That doesn't change my extremely negative feelings towards America.

[Rman]

Pretty good if you're rich lmao

[Himu]

Good youtube comment:

The problem is claiming "the people have the power to change the system, and voting is the ultimate expression of that power" is a meaningless cliche that fails to address why people don't vote. As large scale races basically never come down to one vote, there is no statistically relevant benefit to any one person voting and often compromising their principles for politicians they believe are corrupt. For many people the "lesser of two evils" argument is not an acceptable moral position to take, nor worth the time and effort to do so, especially not for disenfranchised people. I could (and have) voted third party in almost every election and the system doesn't and won't change, barring some extremely successful candidate attaching his name to a third party ticket. Even a successful two-term governor running third party couldn't make any inroads vs. the two-party system in 2012 or 2016. And one singular voting glitch or one miscounted ballot can offset the already infinitesimally small individual statistical weighting of every single vote and wipe out the entire integrity of the election.

People fight like cats and dogs about things and families and friendships get ruined over things they can't really change. Becoming apolitical is honestly the most liberating and practical thing one can do for oneself. The reason I have stopped voting is because it feels liberating to not care, and that sense of liberation far exceeds whatever practical benefit I can hope for from voting for candidates I don't support, trust or believe in.

That solves the voting thing. The 2020 Texas primary is my last vote for the forseeable future. I'll have to help in other ways.

But as for America.  Why believe in it?

[Pennywise]

[benjipwns]

We're still here.

Everyone doubted us.

The Declaration dominates all comers as a foundational document. "They were slave owners!" No shit, and it kept them up at night to know they failed the standards it set. Like it should petty tyrants of today.

The Constitution w/ Bill of Rights destroy their feeble repeated attempts at establishing a sustainable liberal democracy. Rebooting your government every few years over minor disputes is for lameos, not the apex liberal predator.

And we fucking beat them all demonstrably in the process despite tearing ourselves apart over slavery and experiencing every little minor fuckup we've had because we're just that good at nailing the basics nobody else can.

  FUCK CANADA

[Himu]

A better question would be, why do you need to believe in America? Strangely for a person who dislikes authoritarianism or whatever it seems as though you feel you need to be in lockstep with the State, that the State needs to represent you and you have to be realized in it, almost like the inverse version of a DPRK work propaganda poster. America is as much a prison-house of nations as it is one single nation. Hate to say it but the lockean appeal of the united states of america is and always been the chance of land ownership  for cheap. If you want something more out of it, you're just going to run up against this same ideological wall every time.

For me it's important not for nationalism or anything, but in its ability to care for its people. I believe people shouldn't have to feel like their own government and leaders despise them. I feel that a citizenry should have access to healthcare and to freely make choices towards their life. My question is less about believe in America, the governance, and more about believing in America the ideal. Unfortunately I happen to be an idealist.

[Himu]

For me it's important not for nationalism or anything, but in its ability to care for its people. I believe people shouldn't have to feel like their own government and leaders despise them. I feel that a citizenry should have access to healthcare and to freely make choices towards their life. My question is less about believe in America, the governance, and more about believing in America the ideal. Unfortunately I happen to be an idealist.

congratulations forums poster cindi! your personality test has shown that MAOISM (Mao Zedong Thought) is your preferred ideology. Click this link to share your results on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

I want to kill your ass right now.

[benjipwns]

For all my lamentations I can live pretty damn free from the state because of those founding doctrines. Some of the Commonwealth is close, but have nothing like the First, Second, Fourth, Fifth, etc. Amendments with such strength restricting their states. It's not part of the law but the Declaration is hard to escape. Canada's constitution literally says "all these rights can be ignored if the government wants to but we're listing them anyway because America did" which is pussy shit. Plus all of them Yuropean types said we'd collapse due to giving all landowners the vote to justify their own suffrage restrictions, so fuck them.

As always:

If all men are created equal, that is final. If they are endowed with inalienable rights, that is final. If governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, that is final. No advance, no progress can be made beyond these propositions. If anyone wishes to deny their truth or their soundness, the only direction in which he can proceed historically is not forward, but backward toward the time when there was no equality, no rights of the individual, no rule of the people. Those who wish to proceed in that direction can not lay claim to progress. They are reactionary. Their ideas are not more modern, but more ancient, than those of the Revolutionary fathers.

[benjipwns]

FACT CHECK: Forget Mao, Cindi should GET INTO BA!

[BisMarckie]

For me it's important not for nationalism or anything, but in its ability to care for its people. I believe people shouldn't have to feel like their own government and leaders despise them. I feel that a citizenry should have access to healthcare and to freely make choices towards their life. My question is less about believe in America, the governance, and more about believing in America the ideal. Unfortunately I happen to be an idealist.

congratulations forums poster cindi! your personality test has shown that MAOISM (Mao Zedong Thought) is your preferred ideology. Click this link to share your results on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

I want to kill your ass right now.

I know I like being ironic with you all the time but I can honestly say that i am not right now. Seriously, you talk like a BPP era Maoist when you talk about black american identity and what a good nation is. I think you should read The Little Red Book and On Contradiction

Imo
Mao is way too esoteric for someone who never cared or read  about communist literature. Without reading Marx and Lenin you don’t know what Mao is talking about half the time.


Recommending Mao is like recommending Kafka to someone who never read a book before.   

[Mr Gilhaney]

just move already jesus christ

[Himu]

For me it's important not for nationalism or anything, but in its ability to care for its people. I believe people shouldn't have to feel like their own government and leaders despise them. I feel that a citizenry should have access to healthcare and to freely make choices towards their life. My question is less about believe in America, the governance, and more about believing in America the ideal. Unfortunately I happen to be an idealist.

congratulations forums poster cindi! your personality test has shown that MAOISM (Mao Zedong Thought) is your preferred ideology. Click this link to share your results on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

I want to kill your ass right now.

I know I like being ironic with you all the time but I can honestly say that i am not right now. Seriously, you talk like a BPP era Maoist when you talk about black american identity and what a good nation is. I think you should read The Little Red Book and On Contradiction

Imo
Mao is way too esoteric for someone who never cared or read  about communist literature. Without reading Marx and Lenin you don’t know what Mao is talking about half the time.

I've read Marx but not Lenin and I'm not really interested in further communism readings.

For me it's important not for nationalism or anything, but in its ability to care for its people. I believe people shouldn't have to feel like their own government and leaders despise them. I feel that a citizenry should have access to healthcare and to freely make choices towards their life. My question is less about believe in America, the governance, and more about believing in America the ideal. Unfortunately I happen to be an idealist.

congratulations forums poster cindi! your personality test has shown that MAOISM (Mao Zedong Thought) is your preferred ideology. Click this link to share your results on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

I want to kill your ass right now.

I know I like being ironic with you all the time but I can honestly say that i am not right now. Seriously, you talk like a BPP era Maoist when you talk about black american identity and what a good nation is. I think you should read The Little Red Book and On Contradiction

I just want my voice heard. Less money towards war, more towards people and programs. Healthcare is a right. This is hardly Maoist.

[benjipwns]

Less money towards war, more towards people and programs. Healthcare is a right.

"War is the healthcare program for the state."

[Himu]

All these communists.



Ah well. Time to drink.

[Don Rumata]

The American system makes it real simple: You got two options, just vote for the least shitty one. 

[benjipwns]

A CENTRIST

[Himu]

These days I really take after Modelo Negra. I find it positively delicious.

[benjipwns]

Oh, that reminds me, I read an article about Madison's diplomacy in the build up to the War of 1812 and it quoted from a newspaper of the time that attacked him for "taking a Centrist path" and I lol'd

[BisMarckie]

Mao is way too esoteric for someone who never cared or read  about communist literature. Without reading Marx and Lenin you don’t know what Mao is talking about half the time.

this is a questionable point considering mao never read marx

He clearly references Marx several times in his writings, so he either did or read the cliff notes

[Himu]

Unfortunately alcohol is the one thing I can't quit. Shame.

[Himu]

Oh, that reminds me, I read an article about Madison's diplomacy in the build up to the War of 1812 and it quoted from a newspaper of the time that attacked him for "taking a Centrist path" and I lol'd

How do you get all these clippings of newspapers.  You have an encyclopedic knowledge of American history

He works at a university and probably has access.

[benjipwns]

The article was written in 2018 by some PhD dude, I didn't read the actual old timey newspaper

There's a lot of old newspapers scanned by Google actually. You can set your search terms' dates for like "1872" and it'll turn up newspapers.

[benjipwns]

[BisMarckie]

Oh, that reminds me, I read an article about Madison's diplomacy in the build up to the War of 1812 and it quoted from a newspaper of the time that attacked him for "taking a Centrist path" and I lol'd

How do you get all these clippings of newspapers.  You have an encyclopedic knowledge of American history

He works at a university and probably has access.

FACT CHECK: Newspaper archives are incredibly spotty, especially going that far back. It is a pain in the ass to find anything, only the Austrians built a good database for their newspapers .

[benjipwns]

Internet archives that are open to everyone are getting better than many academic archives for that kind of thing. Google's whole plan to scan everything ever printed is farther along than many people realize in terms of what you can search.

It's actually more useful in part because a lot of academic archives are sitting on microfiche which is the worst thing ever and I don't care what Google's evil plans are as long as they scan all that shit and make it searchable.

[BisMarckie]

Internet archives that are open to everyone are getting better than many academic archives for that kind of thing. Google's whole plan to scan everything ever printed is farther along than many people realize in terms of what you can search.

Google got cockblocked by German copyright law. There is basically nothing available that is less than 100 years old. Heck, even Project Gutenberg can’t be accessed by German IPs.
We must protect the dying publishers .

[Trent Dole]

[benjipwns]

A previous library had their microfiche setup so you could hit print screen and it would paste it onto the computer hooked in, nobody seemed to know this. They thought the computers were there so you could like take notes or whatever. There was literally a thing posted telling you that's why they were usb'd into the computers.

You still had to scroll through all that fucking shit but not too fast because it'd unwind because microfiche was made by the devil. What was this thread about again?

[BisMarckie]

What was this thread about again?

America having less strict  copyright laws and therefore being a better place to live

[curly]

He clearly references Marx several times in his writings, so he either did or read the cliff notes

mao read contemporary marxist stuff given to him by the soviets and just aped the ideas, a tradition which continues to this day in the Chinese communist party. Go read a xi jinping speech and you'll see paragraphs saying "we should strive to follow the dialectical method and never stray from historical materialism" without actually applying it in any concrete way

He has a doctorate in Marxism iirc, pls

He contradicts himself all the time but that has probably more to do with his job (running a class compromise economy) than whether he read a book or not.

The posters on the communism101 subreddit say he did. They also say Shosta is a racist.

[benjipwns]

Google got cockblocked by German copyright law. There is basically nothing available that is less than 100 years old. Heck, even Project Gutenberg can’t be accessed by German IPs.
We must protect the dying publishers .

Happens here more often with books. Newspapers were so common and done by so many people who just died it's all in the public domain. But I've come across books Google's scanned that are totally out of print, unable to be purchased, the few copies sitting in some obscure libraries, and yet a publisher is still blocking it on copyright grounds. Like FUCCCCKKKK OOOOOOFFFfffffOOOOOFFFFFFF

[benjipwns]

The posters on the communism101 subreddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/fdktzu/can_someone_explain_to_me_what_gold_standard_is/
https://www.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/fctrml/marxs_theory_of_money_without_the_gold_standard/

why are so many of the top threads about the gold standard

[benjipwns]

https://www.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/fct4ry/official_marxist_analysis_of_mandatory_unpaid/

I've recently been given a work placement in college. Interesting situation, despite the appearance of an application process, I had pretty much no choice in where I went. I got no offers from the ones I applied to (the only interview I got was the husband of a "liberal" borderline neocon professor I'd refuted with citation, and my own writing in-lecture the previous semester, take that as you will). After all my first choices came back with a no, I get word that the Catholic fucking church of all things had seen my grade at GIS software (a module I hadn't even wanted), and decided they wanted me to update their literally ancient parish map archives. A few donations to the school, a skipped interview, and the realization that if I didn't accept the first offer I got, I'd be failed for the entire academic year, later, I found myself working for one of my most hated organizations on earth, unpaid, and with the assurance that if I refused, I'd have a gap year in my resume, killing my academic career before it's begun, and need to pay another year's tuition just to finish. Plus, it's a brand new program, and we were NOT made aware that our placements would be unpaid till the 3rd year, literally 4 months before it started. I've been lucky enough to avoid most alienation and oppress ion thanks to my incredibly hardworking, lucky, and class aware, parents, though we were close to skipping meals a few times, so this is the worst I've had it yet. Apart from being paid to do illegal advertising that I wasn't told was illegal, as an immigrant, and almost being forced to pay the fine rather than my employer, paying me to commit a crime. Small book chapter aside, I feel like it might help to hear an actual analysis of this that isn't my own, since the university library is conspicuously low on criticisms of common academic practice.

[curly]

Cindi's going to move to India to join the Naxalite struggle.

[Great Rumbler]

America's pretty good if you're white, male, and rich. I'm already two-thirds of the way there!

[naff]

who cares, but you should move to the euro zone for a while if you can. bet you'd have a ball in france, and travelling around europe in general

 

[benjipwns]

Cindi's going to move to India to join the Naxalite struggle.

In the previous thread where she mentioned wanting to be somewhere cold and more left-wing I forgot to make a Nepal joke.

[thisismyusername]

All these communists.

[OnlyRegret]

We're still here.

Everyone doubted us.

The Declaration dominates all comers as a foundational document. "They were slave owners!" No shit, and it kept them up at night to know they failed the standards it set. Like it should petty tyrants of today.

The Constitution w/ Bill of Rights destroy their feeble repeated attempts at establishing a sustainable liberal democracy. Rebooting your government every few years over minor disputes is for lameos, not the apex liberal predator.

And we fucking beat them all demonstrably in the process despite tearing ourselves apart over slavery and experiencing every little minor fuckup we've had because we're just that good at nailing the basics nobody else can.

  FUCK CANADA

you need your ass annexed

[benjipwns]

We could maybe negotiate something about burning D.C. every so often.

[Akala]

maybe now