Let's just get out there and say it: Trump has finally gone full ******

[Great Rumbler]

Like...does anyone still wanna give him the benefit of a doubt anymore? Because I don't see how anybody can looking at what's happening now and say that it's all fine and good. It's not fine or good. It sucks like hell and I'm worried about how the election is gonna go in November, there's so many ways that the executive branch can mess things up and it's gonna be a mess regardless. I hate to have to depend on old man Biden and a few not totally feckless liberal Dems to be the only barrier we've got left.

[Himu]

He needs to go away in cuffs preferably with armed guard.

[stufte]

He and his enablers need to be made an example of. I don't know what that entails, but it needs to be made plain to everyone who comes after them that this kind of governance is unacceptable in America.

[BisMarckie]

FACT CHECK:

READ SETTLERS GENTILE.

Full fascist would entail stuff like other parties being disbanded and holding sham elections.

You still got ways to go, but maybe you‘ll get there

[Himu]

He and his enablers need to be made an example of. I don't know what that entails, but it needs to be made plain to everyone who comes after them that this kind of governance is unacceptable in America.

Trial where his crimes are aired out for all to see and then to the firing line courtesy of the military. Make it public. It's honestly the only way.

What gets in the way of it is the "precedent" argument. "If they do that then any party can do that to the other party!" or some such horseshit.

[Nintex]

Just another dose of LAW AND ORDER that seems to work well for him in the polls (and other Republicans before him).

This past week it seems like Trump spooked by the polls is finally listening to someone and is staying on message for 2 days already. Maybe Meadows?
He clearly stopped listening to Jared.

[BisMarckie]

Trump and his band of lunatics and grifters is neither smart nor dedicated enough to overthrow the system outlined by the constitution and Anglo-American political traditions.

[EchoRin]

Was playing Secret Hitler with a group of friends some days ago. One of them asked where we are with Trump. I said a light 3 spaces on the fascist side. That's still no good regardless by any standard though.

[jakefromstatefarm]

been a good long while since we’ve had a “fascism: what is it?” thread.

[Transhuman]

The guy has made some mistakes sure, but whatever happened to second chances?

[Himu]

The guy has made some mistakes sure, but whatever happened to second chances?

Shut the fuck up. Nintex  makes more pertinent posts than you. SAD.

[Great Rumbler]

I think what's wilder is that half(ish) the country doesn't even give a shit and support his moves to own the libs aka people not like them. Every Republican should be flipping the fuck out right now, but I haven't seen shit from any Republicans about Portland and sending in the mini van goon squad into other cities and how they're mighty quiet on the one time the 2nd Amendment directly applies to a modern and on going situation.

Trump's only going to hurt the bad people, so it's okay.

[Himu]

I think what's wilder is that half(ish) the country doesn't even give a shit and support his moves to own the libs aka people not like them. Every Republican should be flipping the fuck out right now, but I haven't seen shit from any Republicans about Portland and sending in the mini van goon squad into other cities and how they're mighty quiet on the one time the 2nd Amendment directly applies to a modern and on going situation.

This is why liberals shouldn't demean the second amendment nor rely on conservatives to protect them.

You only have yourself and buying your own arms for defense.

[Himu]

Honestly the WHERE ARE THE 2A PEOPLE?! from liberals is hilarious.

Just a few months ago I was told there's no need for guns. Now you're calling on gun supporters to fight your fights for you.

[BisMarckie]

ngl, I think that reaction is wild when you consider that the US has done far worse extralegal shit like kidnappings, torture and executions overseas for decades.

I get it, it‘s not directed at your citizens in your country, but government agencies bending the law is just the status quo as far as I am concerned.

[Great Rumbler]

ngl, I think that reaction is wild when you consider that the US has done far worse extralegal shit like kidnappings, torture and executions overseas for decades.

You ain't wrong.

[Transhuman]

Honestly the WHERE ARE THE 2A PEOPLE?! from liberals is hilarious.

Just a few months ago I was told there's no need for guns. Now you're calling on gun supporters to fight your fights for you.

They're not saying there's no need for guns, they're saying the Repubs who are normally harping on about needing guns to prevent governmental overreach are quiet because the government is not reaching for them. In reality if protesters start using guns, all hell will break loose and Trump may win reelection.

[BisMarckie]

TBF Fascism has been a quite meaningless term since the Soviets used it to villanize pretty much every capitalist society, therefore I will stop my pedantry

[Madrun Badrun]

Damn commies ruining facism. 

[Snoopycat_]

Probably shouldn't have voted for him if you don't like him

[CatsCatsCats]

Posting in this thread so that we can all get vanned together

[Joe Molotov]

They can't van us all if we Naruto run.

[G The Resurrected]

I don't know how I feel about any of this anymore. Those that think they are protecting America's values are those that are fine with turning their back on their fellow Americans rights. Yet when it comes to their own they staunchly defend them to no end. Those people who wish to trample others rights have no place here and if we continue to allow them a place in society we'll continue to have issues. This is much larger than just a party or a leader. The very soul of our country is flawed in many ways, and it's proven to be very easy to abuse those pressure points and turn Americans against one another. Those that enable the division and continue to stoke the divide need to be punished severely and publicly.

I'm glad I own several firearms in the event I ever need them.

[Snoopycat_]

Vote for President Snooki 2024.

[Himu]

Please move election day to August I swear to fucking Christ I want to vote NOW!!!

[Positive Touch]

ngl, I think that reaction is wild when you consider that the US has done far worse extralegal shit like kidnappings, torture and executions overseas for decades.

I get it, it‘s not directed at your citizens in your country, but government agencies bending the law is just the status quo as far as I am concerned.

basically this. we've been doing this shit in countries around the world for decades while doing the same thing here in Black, Indigenous, and immigrant communities for decades. the time to act was then, but Democrats were right there with the Republicans cosigning and enacting all of this violence while at the same time busting their asses to shut out the leftists critical of it from the party and the media. now we're at this point and neither the media nor the political parties will call it like it is because they're myopically focused on cash and self-preservation. now it's up to local leaders, activists, and people in the street to push back and that is not a good position AT ALL.

[Positive Touch]

i mean i think Dems lack of action is coming from the same place as the idea that they should still be pursuing conservative white people for their votes. they could do something better, but they see this as the best course of action. i'm sure they'll fight if and when trump decides the election is illegitimate, but i don't think it'll matter at that point.

[Himu]

i mean i think Dems lack of action is coming from the same place as the idea that they should still be pursuing conservative white people for their votes. they could do something better, but they see this as the best course of action. i'm sure they'll fight if and when trump decides the election is illegitimate, but i don't think it'll matter at that point.

But...they DO need conservative white people to win. They are precisely the people that lost them the Midwest and therefore the election.

[Positive Touch]

trump: "fascism is awesome, dictators are the best people on earth, can't wait to jail my opponents and their supporters"

liberals: "haha what a cad lets do a voter drive"

[Himu]

I don't buy that they don't know how to respond.

They SHOULD know how to respond. They are lifelong career politicians and they have a lot of cashflow, and they have sufficient enough infrastructure + are supported by America's effect two-party system.

I can't help but examine the sheer silence and lack of voice or presence during extreme points of converging crisis to be seen as intentional... to essentially let Trump speak for himself instead of come out with a message.

I sincerely despise whatever the fuck is going on, Twitter/YouTube is leading the nation's political reaction more than any leadership or platform by Democrats. That's "sad!"

Trump is definitely using his platform to effectively control a malleable base with ease, I don't buy that Democrats simply aren't a coalition or that they're too big  to follow suit

The idea that democrats are quiet about this at all is preposterous.

[Positive Touch]

i mean i think Dems lack of action is coming from the same place as the idea that they should still be pursuing conservative white people for their votes. they could do something better, but they see this as the best course of action. i'm sure they'll fight if and when trump decides the election is illegitimate, but i don't think it'll matter at that point.

But...they DO need conservative white people to win. They are precisely the people that lost them the Midwest and therefore the election.

they do, but to the point that they go out of their way to alienate leftists and poc... nah. obama worked to bring in a bunch of nonvoters and it worked out great for him. meanwhile you have a bunch of white Dems (like clair mccaskill ugh) that would have campaigns of "don't you hate Black people? aren't liberals stupid?" and can't bring in the votes because the pissed off white union guys and whatnot have already moved to the right.

[benjipwns]

You all wanted the state, now all of the sudden you complain.

[james]

One day you white people will read about latin america and you will be awake

[Himu]

Yeah, Seattle definitely didn't defund their police department.

Minneapolis definitely didn't decide get rid of their police department entirely.

Currently democrats definitely aren't making legislation to cut the defense budget.

The past two months all they've done is sit on their ass and Joe Biden has commented on none of it.

[samir]

DEMONCRATS AND REPUBLICUNTS ARE ALL THE SAME AMERICANS ARE LIVING A LIE WAKE UP

[benjipwns]

FACT CHECK:

READ SETTLERS GENTILE.

been a good long while since we’ve had a “fascism: what is it?” thread.

I'll not help. My general contention of wank dad pedantry is that most view it the wrong way around, especially in popular "philosophy"/politics, and focus on the actions of a state which is always self-justifying. The real heart and core is more about the sacrifice of the individual to the will of the state, because it is through the state from which life itself is given its meaning. Fascism never claimed an eventual state of utopia from struggle, it claimed the state and the struggle itself was inherently utopian.

Like this stuff from the Doctrine:

The Fascist State, as a higher and more powerful expression of personality, is a force, but a spiritual one. It sums up all the manifestations of the moral and intellectual life of man. Its functions cannot therefore be limited to those of enforcing order and keeping the peace, as the liberal doctrine had it. It is no mere mechanical device for defining the sphere within which the individual may duly exercise his supposed rights. The Fascist State is an inwardly accepted standard and rule of conduct, a discipline of the whole person; it permeates the will no less than the intellect. It stands for a principle which becomes the central motive of man as a member of civilized society, sinking deep down into his personality; it dwells in the heart of the man of action and of the thinker, of the artist and of the man of science: soul of the soul

...

" I don't care a damn „ (me ne frego) - the proud motto of the fighting squads scrawled by a wounded man on his bandages, is not only an act of philosophic stoicism, it sums up a doctrine which is not merely political: it is evidence of a fighting spirit which accepts all risks. It signifies new style of Italian life. The Fascist accepts and loves life; he rejects and despises suicide as cowardly. Life as he understands it means duty, elevation, conquest; life must be lofty and full, it must be lived for oneself but above all for others, both near bye and far off, present and future.

...

The Fascist State is, however, a unique and original creation. It is not reactionary but revolutionary, for it anticipates the solution of certain universal problems which have been raised elsewhere, in the political field by the splitting up of parties, the usurpation of power by parliaments, the irresponsibility of assemblies; in the economic field by the increasingly numerous and important functions discharged by trade unions and trade associations with their disputes and ententes, affecting both capital and labor; in the ethical field by the need felt for order, discipline, obedience to the moral dictates of patriotism.

Fascism desires the State to be strong and organic, based on broad foundations of popular support. The Fascist State lays claim to rule in the economic field no less than in others; it makes its action felt throughout the length and breadth of the country by means of its corporative, social, and educational institutions, and all the political, economic, and spiritual forces of the nation, organized in their res­pective associations, circulate within the State.  A State based on millions of individuals who recognize its authority, feel its action, and are ready to serve its ends is not the tyrannical state of a mediaeval lordling. It has nothing in common with the despotic States existing prior to or subsequent to 1789.

Far from crushing the individual, the Fascist State multiplies his energies, just as in a regiment a soldier is not diminished but multiplied by the number of his fellow soldiers. The Fascist State organizes the nation, but it leaves the individual adequate elbow room. It has curtailed useless or harmful liberties while preserving those which are essential. In such matters the individual cannot be the judge, but the State only.

I've never understood (outside of what BisMarckie noted) the rewriting of fascist doctrine to mean mere authoritarianism when the actual thing itself was so monstrous in design that it need not the Nazis to tar it through association even though historically that's what it took.

[benjipwns]

 

[Positive Touch]

pedants

[Kara]

FACT CHECK:

READ SETTLERS GENTILE.

Full fascist would entail stuff like other parties being disbanded and holding sham elections.

You still got ways to go, but maybe you‘ll get there

The U.S. always has sham elections, are you just talking out of your ass again or is this you "trolling."

[benjipwns]

But they weren't dishonest, it was literally as they claimed. You think otherwise only because you've been tainted by liberalism and pacifism and marxism that has made you weak and suppressed the enlightening of your soul.

[benjipwns]

It's truly revolutionary, it discards all the old ways for their failures rather than pines for them and brings forth a true revolution in our understanding between the state and the state's property.

You think that reactionary because again, you've been tainted by liberalism, and The End of History lies by Fukuyama.

[Kara]

Thank god you're back, who the hell did we sacrifice to make that happen

Be sure to vote in your local free and fair election this November to ensure a transition of power in January 2021.

[benjipwns]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when people disparagingly use fascist they're purely referring to the state's natural will to exert its power and cause people to conform, with the insinuation that it's being done to promote someone's injustice rule... not necessarily emulate Fascism as a political machine nor a hyper-competent state willing to carry out the leader's rule.

It's rather dumb, but a musician or artist "sticking it to the fascists" are really just sticking it to the police/higher powers/proponents of the law etc.

We're just saying fascism used to mean something. It wasn't just authoritarianism. Fascism is and should be treated as more specific and namely totalitarian in worldview. The central argument of fascism makes certain claims fundamentally about the individual and their relationship with the state. Fascism's construction and compromises were far more insidious than general strong man authoritarianism is. There's fascist elements to Trump, but there also were to Obama, and every Administration for the last century plus either had them or the Presidents possessed them personally as proto-fascists. Yet the system hasn't fallen into a broad general authoritarianism, not even today. Biden winning, even if he changes none of this, alone precludes that. As does the 50 individual state elections on down.

For me at least, the confusion weakens the worst parts of fascism. It's the ideology, not the obvious actions that came out of it. But I also differentiate between fascism and Nazism. And technically in theory I have a license to do so unlike shosta who is not to be trusted as we can all agree.

[benjipwns]

State fetishism and subversion of the individual to an all encompassing ideology doesn't really work to describe third-world coup d'etats, or any of the reactionary anti-communist movements, and it especially doesn't describe Donald Trump. But illiberalism, specific economic conditions, racism, reactionary nationalism, religious or mythological syncretism, and an endangered propertied class, those all produce a much more satisfying analysis applicable to a much wider variety of regimes that still clearly belong to the same ideological family.

What are you teaching the poor children of Michigan?

Third world coups, anti-communist movements/paramilitaries, etc. are products historically of non-fascist states more than fascist states. Illiberalism, reactionary nationalism, syncretism of many types, etc. all are pretty good fascist tropes, and even better, the Doctrine spends plenty of time on all of those with little comparative time on anti-communism aside from typical totalitarian infighting.

[jakefromstatefarm]

For me at least [the worst part of fascism is] the ideology, not the obvious actions that came out of it.

invigorated by herr benji’s spirited case here against freedom of thought and expression

[thisismyusername]

Liberals in charge: Don't Tread On Me

Conservatives in charge: Tread on me bb

Kink-shaming ToxicAdam.

[Boredfrom]

ngl, I think that reaction is wild when you consider that the US has done far worse extralegal shit like kidnappings, torture and executions overseas for decades.

I get it, it‘s not directed at your citizens in your country, but government agencies bending the law is just the status quo as far as I am concerned.

I mean, living in a country with story of the government doing that (while not going full fascist) to its own citizens, is kind of something I envy.

.  I just think you're focusing on the wrong thing, as important as that thing might seem.

Then again, that’s why people think that ‘defund the police’ is that in a literal sense.

[Tasty]

I've been pretty out of things, what is it this time?

[benjipwns]

And yet there were governments which had maybe 95% of the distinguishing characteristics of fascist authoritarianism but nonetheless were not totalitarian. Is the shorthand for this family of political tendencies really such a crime? Does it really lessen the word when people use it to describe reactionary conservative movements? Even when they end up in the same place?

This isn't a gotcha type thing but I want to get on the same wavelength so I'm going to ask for a few examples of what you have in mind. Because they may not be at all what I'm thinking of.

Well that's why I said the actions are more important because fascists spent almost all of their time before seizing power and immediately after whipping themselves into a frenzy over communists.

Not anymore than they did against the other groups they sought to displace. The main thing with the Communists was tied to how the Communists actually were willing to physically resist them and take up arms. Most everyone else was willing to compromise believing it was a non-existential threat.

I just think you're focusing on the wrong thing, as important as that thing might seem.

Maybe, but different governments provide different civ-wide stat bonuses especially when combined with how they change the specific policy choices available.

[Boredfrom]

I've been pretty out of things, what is it this time?

Trump is using undercover federal agents to arrest protesters in certain cities.

[thisismyusername]

I've been pretty out of things, what is it this time?

Federal Agents kidnapping protestors in Portland (and Seattle IIRC). I haven't been paying too much attention to it since the news is BARELY covering it, if ever.

[benjipwns]

Trump is using undercover federal agents to arrest protesters in certain cities.

Federal Agents kidnapping protestors in Portland (and Seattle IIRC). I haven't been paying too much attention to it since the news is BARELY covering it, if ever.

The CBP is operating in their legal 100 mile zone to arrest terrorists and anarchists under both a Trump Presidential directive and an Obama Administration administrative court ruling upholding the 100 mile zone, both of which were originally introduced by the Bush Administration to protect us after 9/11. Complaining about it is being divisive and undermining national security. Consider yourselves both reported.

Especially YOU Boredform, being a foreign terrorist. And landlord.

[thisismyusername]

I was already anti-Iraq invasion and anti-Patriot act (hence my industry). If I wasn't already on the FBI's terrorist list, me being a pinko-commie pro-worker union/etc. would put me there solidly in the McCarthy era.

PS: Fuck AmeriKKKa. Shithole country, you can put that in my file, handler.

[Boredfrom]

Where do I signup to get a 100 mile zone around my house where I can abduct people in a van without any form accountability or identification.

Asking for a friend.

:James 

Go to Mexico and become a Narco or a Mexican politician. If you are good, your stand range is unlimited.

[benjipwns]

My main point with the pedantry is more that I just think it's easier to say Trump (or whoever) is going more authoritarian, leaving fascism with its history, ideology and everything out of it, but then that just leads us to realize that it's not really new, we've been authoritarian in a lot of ways much more than we think about. Fascism still sounds exotic, different, the big bad we beat once, "can't happen here" and all that. Even though we adopted plenty of it in our own more diluted ways for a century. I still think it should be treated that kind of way as being unique. Like we wouldn't as easily say we're adopting Nazism until we got to the racial stuff and overtly so. We wouldn't say we're adopting Communism until we... actually nevermind

[Kara]

I've been pretty out of things, what is it this time?

shosta got mad at benji in an argument and shosta got so owned that he sent Kara a direct message on Facebook calling for backup

I don't condone engaging in arguments whose substance differs little from the old "Was the Soviet Union state capitalist or a degenerated workers' state?" cleave in Trotskyism.

And certainly not with purported adults who use terms like authoritarian earnestly.

[benjipwns]

I've never purported to be an adult

[curly]

Off the top of my head I'd say Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion...just something I came up with.

[Human Snorenado]

All I'm hearing is that you cucks have a sad because America is finally Great Again

[BIONIC]

I've been pretty out of things, what is it this time?

Trump is jailing Animal Crossing villagers without due process 

Next stop: Ohana