Author Topic: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2  (Read 517 times)

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Tasty

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The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« on: February 16, 2021, 06:21:42 PM »




After 10 years of "it's obviously the better game lol," someone (in this case KingK, whose Zelda reviews are top-notch) expertly articulates why I disagree.

Tasty

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2021, 06:23:30 PM »
Also, yes, obviously it would have been great to have SMG2 in All-Stars. No one's debating that lol.

EchoRin

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2021, 12:36:23 AM »
Tasty, you could have added this to the random gaming videos thread.

But since it's already here...

I'm subbed to KingK. I also am with him on this one. He greatly expands my own feelings.

Essentially though I love both games, but my preference towards the first one is really down to the few touches. The hub world. Rosalina Story time which I never in a million years would have thought would be a highlight in a Mario game before Galaxy came out. Especially when seeing story elements play out in Sunshine beforehand.
And finally there was one Yoshi level in Galaxy 2 which drove e up the wall due to controls (orientation-wise). 

That's pretty much it. Cause I have a blast playing both games and Galaxy 2 to me was always just a massive level pack in terms of its execution. That's less of a knock against the game. Just merely why Galaxy 1 is the one I prefer between those 2.

Oh and then there was the green star loading times in Galaxy 2 which starts to become nuts if you do go for them all (and it's fun to go for them all so I did). That was touched on in Matthewmatosis' youtube review of Galaxy 2 and I when I saw that I was like "ah! Yeah that was starting to grate on me. Just needed someone to point it out"

this is the yoshi level that made me want to toss my wiimote out the window:



My issues start around 1:22

edit:

What I didn't know before this video (KingK one) was how Miyamoto almost sort of killed the ambience of Galaxy 1. I know I've read here on the Bore in other spots when discussing Paper Mario that Miyamoto has prevented original characters in that series after The Thousand Year Door. I wasn't aware that he was also not too keen on new character and atmosphere additions to Galaxy 1. I appreciate the old man, but yeah I'm glad he didn't strong arm his opposition this time around.

Tasty

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2021, 01:07:00 AM »
Quote
Tasty, you could have added this to the random gaming videos thread.

But then how else will I get the attention I so desperately crave? :(

Alternate answer: the what? :P

Tasty

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2021, 01:08:04 AM »
Quote
And finally there was one Yoshi level in Galaxy 2 which drove e up the wall due to controls (orientation-wise).

For me it was one particular Fluzzard Wii waggle level which was far more frustrating than any of the motion control gimmicks in Galaxy 1.

Tasty

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2021, 01:11:39 AM »
What I didn't know before this video (KingK one) was how Miyamoto almost sort of killed the ambience of Galaxy 1. I know I've read here on the Bore in other spots when discussing Paper Mario that Miyamoto has prevented original characters in that series after The Thousand Year Door. I wasn't aware that he was also not too keen on new character and atmosphere additions to Galaxy 1. I appreciate the old man, but yeah I'm glad he didn't strong arm his opposition this time around.


It was disappointing to hear/read (might have been an Iwata Asks) back in the day that Koizumi basically had to sneak Rosalina's storybook under the radar for it to make it into Galaxy 1, and that after release Miyamoto reigned in the story elements hardcore for Galaxy 2.

I get Miyamoto's vision. I totally understand it. And in terms of the mainline Mario series, I can kinda even respect it on some level. But yeah, he definitely should not be messing with other teams working in genres he's totally unfamiliar with (RPGs.)

While Miyamoto's game design sensibilities are above question, in terms of modern game development it feels increasingly like we're moving from the silent era of game design into the talkies era. And like a lot of silent era stars, perhaps Miyamoto isn't as well suited to the medium as it exists today (or as I want it to exist, I suppose.)

On the other hand, kids don't have such preconceived notions, and to them the newest Mario or Zelda is their first one, and I can appreciate crafting an experience for that age group so that it's replicated and consistent between parent (playing Mario 1 on NES) and child (playing New Mario U on Switch.)

But if you're the parent looking for constantly-new Mario experiences, SMG2 much like the NSMB series falls flat.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 01:16:45 AM by Tasty »

El Babua

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2021, 01:16:09 AM »
Will definitely watch. It exceeded the original in some ways, but I found it a worse experience overall IMO.

I think people rate SMG2 as better than Galaxy 1 the same way people consider Bayonetta 2 better than 1. Something that can be casually accepted due to immediate (and seemingly improved) differences between later and former, that are let down by other aspects if looked upon more closely.

EchoRin

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2021, 01:17:43 AM »
Quote
Tasty, you could have added this to the random gaming videos thread.

But then how else will I get the attention I so desperately crave? :(

Alternate answer: the what? :P
Here
http://www.thebore.com/forum/index.php?topic=47613.0

Not that there is a rule to do so. It's a good catch all thread for similar type of videos. A way of not turning the random gaming talk thread into a slow loading youtube vids thread.

edit: I know you already gave me a like, but on the Miyamoto thing. I wouldn't say that it's as drastic as movies before talkies and movies after. Wouldn't Breath of the Wild ironically be perhaps as close to a remake of Miyamoto's original TLoZ?
Or perhaps looking at other games released today, there are plenty that seem to succeed in their own way while mostly brushing aside everything outside of the main course that is the gameplay mechanics.
Like stuff like Super Meat Boy or Shovel Knight or Trials HD would be adhering more to that old school style of blasting forward with gameplay first and foremost. But then something like FEZ, though it doesn't have proper cutscenes, leans really heavily into the atmosphere and a big part of the experience is more than just the core mechanics of solving puzzles.

There seems to be space for both styles.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 01:51:27 AM by EchoRin »

Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2021, 01:42:26 AM »
For all the reasons he said he likes Galaxy better than 2 are all the reasons why I like 2 better than Galaxy. I do not care about Rosalina or the storybook. I hate the hub world and navigating it. It gets especially annoying when you have to travel to the upper level rooms between stars and getting sent back to the bottom floor after every star.

Galaxy 2 is obviously just a level pack of the original, and I'm not sure we can say it needs a unique style or gimmick. To me it's just a better collection of levels of the Galaxy formula without the fluff and adding a lot of my favourite elements like Yoshi and the cloud flower. It came out 2.5 years after the original game, I think that's the shortest gap between 3D Mario games and it shows.

Tasty

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2021, 01:48:40 AM »
For all the reasons he said he likes Galaxy better than 2 are all the reasons why I like 2 better than Galaxy. I do not care about Rosalina or the storybook. I hate the hub world and navigating it. It gets especially annoying when you have to travel to the upper level rooms between stars and getting sent back to the bottom floor after every star.

Galaxy 2 is obviously just a level pack of the original, and I'm not sure we can say it needs a unique style or gimmick. To me it's just a better collection of levels of the Galaxy formula without the fluff and adding a lot of my favourite elements like Yoshi and the cloud flower. It came out 2.5 years after the original game, I think that's the shortest gap between 3D Mario games and it shows.

Not sure I can disagree with any of that. (Though Rosalina's storybook hits me different personally.)

But if SMG and SMG2 came out in the same year, I'd still give GOTY to Galaxy 1. It's the better overall game.

EchoRin

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2021, 03:38:48 AM »
For all the reasons he said he likes Galaxy better than 2 are all the reasons why I like 2 better than Galaxy. I do not care about Rosalina or the storybook. I hate the hub world and navigating it. It gets especially annoying when you have to travel to the upper level rooms between stars and getting sent back to the bottom floor after every star.

Galaxy 2 is obviously just a level pack of the original, and I'm not sure we can say it needs a unique style or gimmick. To me it's just a better collection of levels of the Galaxy formula without the fluff and adding a lot of my favourite elements like Yoshi and the cloud flower. It came out 2.5 years after the original game, I think that's the shortest gap between 3D Mario games and it shows.

I looked at a longplay to see if this was the case, but it's not. You are placed back in the area where the galaxy was. Maybe you are misremembering when booting the game up? I can see that being possible that you start on the main floor, but once you are in a room and completing stars you return only to that room after a star is finished.

Or perhaps these are very specific stars that act differently? I'll go check out the area near the endgame to see...

edit: Tasty already explained, but yeah you usually just return to the room.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 03:46:31 AM by EchoRin »

Tasty

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2021, 03:43:35 AM »
Collecting a Grand Star AKA beating a boss puts you at the starting point of Rosalina's observatory in Galaxy 1, usually due to cutscene/storyline necessity (new rooms opening up, Luigi showing up, etc.) All other stars merely return you to the same room.

HardcoreRetro

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2021, 04:38:31 AM »
I didn't love either game at the time cause they were to lineair to me. The complaints people threw at Super Mario 3D World is basically how I felt about these two. Mario's reduced moveset also really messed with my enjoyment of these games.

Sunshine in retrospect has really lineair design as well. Mainly because the stars became mission based instead of them just being in the world. But as opposed to the Galaxy games, Mario's expanded moveset in Sunshine at least facilitates some freedom.

Sunshine > Galaxy 1 and 2

Fifstar

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2021, 05:27:52 AM »
Where is that "every video game design video" parody when you need it?
Gulp

HardcoreRetro

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2021, 05:40:49 AM »
Is this entire video him bitching about the story in a 3D mario game?

Uncle

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2021, 06:52:42 AM »
yeah I have to say I was all ready for him to state his case and consider his position but it took him 20 minutes all just to say the cutscenes in 1 are better, I shut it off at that point

"which game do you like better, the one where the dorky power of loooove wins out, or where THE UNIVERSE FUCKING EXPLODES ISN'T THAT BALLER SHIT"

it's a mario game, yes the cutscenes were better but also they didn't matter

how is galaxy 2 missed potential compared to 1 in that way, how do you even top creating a supernova and exploding the galaxy

imo you just don't try to top it at all and deliver a game that's more fun instead
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El Babua

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2021, 07:29:29 AM »
Yeah, story in Mario games don't matter one way or another.

Buuut Galaxy 1 was waaay more ambitious with the concept (and had better level design - but y'all aren't ready for that conversation)

EchoRin

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2021, 07:31:11 AM »
Is this entire video him bitching about the story in a 3D mario game?
The actual story comparison bitching is like 1 minute probably.

It's more like, since you brought up Sunshine, if Sunshine had no hub world and instead you were on a boat that took you to the various islands. If Sunshine didn't have little touches like seeing the area with the theme park while you were on the oil rig area. Essentially, if the sense of connectedness and purpose of the world as a whole was not considered.

Well, Sunshine was probably the best to execute that sense of a world and being interconnected and thematically in unison. Delphino Isle is pretty cool as a world.

Kinda goes with the title of the video. Not about claiming "sequel sucks, I'm right you're wrong" hot take, but more "man there are some things in the prequel that I wish the second game would have tried to 1up as well"
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 08:25:23 AM by EchoRin »

El Babua

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2021, 08:09:16 AM »
Also, I feel like I might have been the only person in the world to notice at the time, but there are a shit-ton more "fluff" stars in Galaxy 2 compared to 1.

In Galaxy 1, each hub comprised of 2 big levels and several small levels. The big levels usually had 3 courses with unique stars, each one giving you something new to explore within the theme of the galaxy you were in.

Each star also, built upon, and escalated the challenges and mechanics you got into within that galaxy. Each of the main stars in those levels felt like a wonderful ride, and even formed cool narratives through their design. You had 1 or 2 prankster comets on top of that, and maybe a secret star or a minigame. Same deal with the smaller galaxies, with 1 or 2 unique courses and maybe a comet.

With Galaxy 2, each level usually has 2 unique courses and the rest of them are prankster, coin shit, or monke minigames. While the unique courses available are as good (for the most part) as what we got in the first game, there are a lot less of them than you think. Because of that, I feel that Galaxy 2 never made the most of the cool ideas its levels introduced. In fact looking at the list below for Galaxy 2, a few of the levels were 1 main course, then a quicker course and then comet/minigame/secret type stars. Melty Monster comes to mind in particular.

https://www.ign.com/wikis/super-mario-galaxy/Walkthrough

https://www.ign.com/wikis/super-mario-galaxy-2/Walkthrough

Compare the number of unique courses with the number of comet challenges, minigames, etc for each level in both games. Green stars were a cool concept and I'm glad they took the idea further in Odyssey, but IMO Galaxy 1 made way more out of the levels it had.

HardcoreRetro

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2021, 08:46:10 AM »
It's more like, since you brought up Sunshine, if Sunshine had no hub world and instead you were on a boat that took you to the various islands. If Sunshine didn't have little touches like seeing the area with the theme park while you were on the oil rig area. Essentially, if the sense of connectedness and purpose of the world as a whole was not considered.

The observatory is a terrible hubworld tough to the point where I'm glad they got rid of it in SMG2.

EchoRin

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2021, 08:57:08 AM »
Heh. I love the observatory. Though since some players didn't enjoy traversal on it I would have been down for a quick travel option to go to each hub.

tiesto

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2021, 10:42:23 AM »
I was never a fan of hub worlds in platformers... just let me go to the level as quick as possible.
^_^

Nintex

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2021, 02:36:22 PM »
The start of Koizumi's entire career is basically sneaking stories into Miyamoto's games  :lol

He started with A Link to the Past of which he was supposed to just write the manual but instead wrote a back story and several in game story scenario's.
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naff

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2021, 03:37:20 PM »
i rate SMG2 better than SMG1 because i never played the latter  8)
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Nintex

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2021, 03:46:31 PM »
As for Galaxy 2, he makes some good points.

Because they skipped it for the Mario anniversary it makes me wonder who actually made it. Interviews about this game always end and begin with: "We had ideas left" but never any in depth look into development challenges or interesting anecdotes.
I always suspected the game was only designed or concepted by Nintendo and then farmed out to completion considering the development troubles they had back then. Usually the extra touches that Galaxy had are added very late in the development cycle when everything comes together. The pacing issues would've been noticed by Nintendo EAD Tokyo as from Jungle Beat to 3D Land to Oddysey, perfect pacing is what these guys do. It's the only explanation I can think of that resulted in good levels but bad pacing.
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EchoRin

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2021, 03:52:34 PM »
i rate SMG2 better than SMG1 because i never played the latter  8)

You can fix that by purchasing the 3D All Stars collection by March xx, because Nintendo is... peculiar

 :miyamoto

 :paul :picard :mindblown :insane :birb :wut :waluigi :shaq2

I'm not buying that since they didn't go all out and make it bug free (or at least as bug free as the originals). Luckily my roommate has a copy so I'll finally play through Super Mario 64 all the way.

Nintex

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2021, 03:56:15 PM »
They patched some stuff. I think the dithering of certain effects is the only real issue left in Galaxy 1.
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EchoRin

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2021, 04:03:53 PM »
They patched some stuff. I think the dithering of certain effects is the only real issue left in Galaxy 1.

They get rid of the dev markings in Sunshine (for lack of a better word)?

I mean I'll see for myself. I just wish they didn't rush the damn thing and then also  proceed to rush it off all stores physical and digital  :lol

MMaRsu

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2021, 04:06:32 PM »
Dont even have a Switch yet so fuck you Nintendo with your time limited bullshit on your own goddamn games

Tasty

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2021, 07:15:38 PM »
They patched some stuff. I think the dithering of certain effects is the only real issue left in Galaxy 1.

Yeah this is still wicked annoying and a blight on an otherwise solid port.

Spieler1

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2021, 08:32:04 PM »
Even 10 minutes of story can add some distinct tone at least. Might as well just make every platformer look like N+ if it mattered so little.

I mean, they actually did that with all these New Mario Bros. and 3D World titles which become stale by the second entry you play. To the point that I now retroactively like that mess Super Paper Mario, just because its world and characters are unique.

Madrun Badrun

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2021, 10:10:39 PM »
Y'all talking about story in a Mario game?  The fuck?   
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Trent Dole

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2021, 10:17:33 PM »
Dont even have a Switch yet so fuck you Nintendo with your time limited bullshit on your own goddamn games
It's not like it'll be hard to find second hand, it's a collection of games with arguably the biggest mascot ever on one of the best selling consoles of all time.
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EchoRin

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2021, 11:55:45 PM »
Dont even have a Switch yet so fuck you Nintendo with your time limited bullshit on your own goddamn games
It's not like it'll be hard to find second hand, it's a collection of games with arguably the biggest mascot ever on one of the best selling consoles of all time.

Yeah, but the prices. And yes I know "Nintendo evergreen", but man the cost of Nintendo games is obnoxious. More so when it's a limited release. I don't remember what the price was on the Wii All Stars compilation some years after it came out, but the idea of the 3D All Stars collection going for more than original retail like say the Metroid Prime Trilogy comp is rather crap.
Stuff like this at $40 would be great at launch and then to be able to pick it up for $20 within a year. I guess we are spoiled by the various Sony remaster packages and other third parties.
Nintendo gonna Nintendo. I know. Still rather annoying.

Trent Dole

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2021, 12:59:27 PM »
I don't disagree, but like you said it kind of is what it is.
:miyamoto
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Stro

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2021, 06:19:29 PM »
I'm gonna say here that I don't really care much for either Galaxy game not even so much for the waggle (which I do not like) but I hate the camera constantly being upside and shit.

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2021, 08:30:06 PM »
Mario 3D All Stars is not all that impressive. Youíre not missing much if you donít get it. You could probably flip it for $200 or something in a couple years, that would be the only reason to feel like youíre missing out.
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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2021, 08:57:02 PM »
I'm gonna say here that I don't really care much for either Galaxy game not even so much for the waggle (which I do not like) but I hate the camera constantly being upside and shit.

consistently the most baffling taste on the board

that's ok tho bb
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Stro

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2021, 09:15:28 PM »
The last time I tried to play either of them it was just making me feel gross and giving me a headache

mormapope

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2021, 08:49:48 AM »
The last time I tried to play either of them it was just making me feel gross and giving me a headache

Galaxy is pretty odd in that platforming revolves around a birds eye view and having to get a feel for moving around as such. People treat Sunshine as some weird entry in the franchise, but that feels less gimmicky than Galaxy.

OH!

Tasty

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2021, 09:49:32 AM »
Gimmicks aren't inherently bad and the more of them are in a game, the more variety there is. The Mario series employs so many one-level "gimmicks" that you're never bored for long (and you probably don't even realize they are gimmicks.)

Individual gimmicks can be evaluated on their own merits but something being more gimmicky doesn't make it a worse product. The fact Sunshine is lacking in variety is well known and more of an indictment of that game, IMO.

Nintex

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2021, 07:23:10 PM »
It was so magical playing Super Mario Galaxy for the first time.
I can picture that entire first Galaxy in my head.

 :lawd
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Stro

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2021, 08:15:25 PM »
We've seen all the shit you see in your head though

HardcoreRetro

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2021, 05:58:26 AM »
We've seen all the shit you see in your head though


naff

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Re: The Missed Potential of Super Mario Galaxy 2
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2021, 05:39:42 PM »
all i know is, galaxy 2 fucks and all this talk of 1 being even better is making me want to buy that stupid mario collection though i might just pirate it and play on wii u  :bernie
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