Author Topic: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long  (Read 2251 times)

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VomKriege

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Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« on: May 02, 2022, 06:34:46 AM »
Always having been interested (or in tangential contact) in the Three Kingdoms Romance -like over a billion people I guess-, I finally started listening to a podcast offering a reader's digest of the novel. Maybe I'll muster the courage to read it one day but considering the reputation of being a dry brick assaulting you with thousands of names I'd rather do that with some general foreknowledge of who and what in the general sense.
http://www.3kingdomspodcast.com/

So far I'm up to Dong Zhuo being executed.

My remarks so far :
- Eunuchs, amirite ? Apparently there's an historical reason they got so much leeway with the Hans but how brazen they are in the story is good laughs.
- Lu Bu is really susceptible to flattery. Is he the Himbo ?
- Cao Cao sounds like a no nonsense pragmatic (there's at least a couple of times already he said to officials to stop bitching and do something), decisive but also the butt of the dark joke many times already.
- Generals really love having a duel of the champions instead of a real battle despite how disastrous those seem to turn for the weaker duelists, with armies in literal disarray just minutes in.
- Is it me or the romance is actually pretty bleak and cynical ? I know there's designated good guys (and much, much discussion about the bias of the authors and the chronicles used as sources) but it doesn't seem too sugar coated that everyone is jockeying for power and using the hollow Han imperial legitimacy as a prop ?
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VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2022, 06:41:24 AM »
The podcast also had an aside on Yi Yin, both a mythical prime minister of old and also held as the father of Chinese cuisine.

For those unfamiliar, the Romance of the Three Kingdoms was compiled in the XIVth century but is based on historical records kept by the different belligerents that are deemed to be fairly accurate and solid historical sources by academics. The records themselves and the romance are of course shaped by their contemporary political imperatives (justifying the legitimacy and lineage of whoever was chartering said record keeping) but the Chinese motto that it's "2/3 historical" holds up better than you'd think.
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VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2022, 07:01:06 AM »
Does the precious ornate dagger that Cao Cao loaned to (hilariously fail to) kill Dong Zhuo ever come up again ?
It doesn't really get commented on but I'd imagine the people he borrowed it from and to whom he swore he would kill the tyrant must have felt pretty raw about the whole thing. Seems it was sweeped because bigger things immediately starts unfolding (and Cao Cao murders a whole farm full of servants and a friend of his father because of a mild paranoid rage which is of course held as not morally great but not all that important in the grand scheme of things. Being a commoner in ancient China sounds rough).

The whole botched backstab incident is probably apocryphal... The farm massacre however maybe happened (with an alternative motivation of being robbed by the people there).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2022, 07:06:33 AM by VomKriege »
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VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2022, 09:46:06 AM »
- Cao Cao laughs a lot and likes to clap.
- Families being genocided left and right.
- I'm still confused at those generals dueling deciding battles... Especially since it's not rare for other fighters to get in and gang up on a single opponent so it's not like there's actual "rules" ?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 09:52:10 AM by VomKriege »
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VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2022, 12:46:45 PM »
- When some new character gets introduced "Ahhhhh yes I have long heard of your name !". You fucking liars.
- Liu Bei is a tad obnoxious.
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Mupepe

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2022, 11:02:25 PM »
As someone who loved the games - especially IV - I have no idea what you’re talking about. Why is there a podcast? I just thought it was a game series.

VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2022, 05:35:45 AM »
As someone who loved the games - especially IV - I have no idea what you’re talking about. Why is there a podcast? I just thought it was a game series.

The games are based off a 14th century novel (itself based off historical records about the civil war in second/third century AD) which is one of the "4 major Chinese novels" (with Water Margin, Journey to the West*, Dream of the Red Chamber).
It permeates Chinese culture down to being the source for common idioms and the story and characters are more or less known by everyone in the same sense than Arthurian stories, Greek mythology or the Iliad (to find a Western analogue). There's many TV shows, films and videogames based off it including the two long running series by Koei (the strategy game you probably reference and Dynasty Warriors).

The book is a bit of a daunting, dry & huge monster for Western audiences, something the podcaster realized when he gifted it to his wife and skimmed over the English version himself. So in 2014 he started a podcast where he essentially told the whole story in a condensed, informal form with a few explanatory asides.

Having an interest in it, but being a little intimidated by reading the book cold turkey, I thought it was a decent compromise for me to get a better sense of the whole story (even if I'll never remember most of the names). So I'm listening to it (and I'm like... Around 10-15% of the plot) and wasting a little bit of the global server capacity by putting down my bankrupted wit down in this thread, thinking it might interest someone. Or not.

* The Monkey King story who serves as a basis for Dragon Ball.
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VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2022, 06:59:09 AM »
- Zhang Fei is a moron  :lol "Trust me bro, I won't drink !" *Immediately gets wasted and provokes the father in law of one of the most dangerous rivals*
- "Brothers are like limbs while wives are like garments, you can always mend the latter" that's fucked up China.

Some post on Reddit surmised that Buddhism, with his neverending cycle of suffering, probably got some traction at that time because of the constant strife spanning several generations. Very, very simplified but you know.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 07:58:43 AM by VomKriege »
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VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2022, 03:16:53 PM »
- Cao Cao, what a smooth ladies man *to woman he never knew about until an hour ago* "Yeah it's only for your sake I didn't kill your nephew a week ago." Damn I never tried that one.


Lady Zou, according to Japanese historian Ko Ei Tecmo

- Lu Bu gets very savvy all of a sudden when playing diplomatic games with Liu Bei though I suppose basing your peace efforts on the gamble of some improbable archery feat is not the most rational approach to this.

- Cao Cao do get a lot of last minute escapes and lucky breaks for being the greatest schemer of his time.

- Man do the author loves tigers and wolves analogies. Almost as much as "great hero of our time" and "men of talent". *Ben Shapiro voice* "Dian Wei was a bear of a man"
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 03:53:40 PM by VomKriege »
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VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2022, 09:06:37 AM »
Quote
When Liu An received Liu Bei, he offered Bei a meal and Bei gladly accepted. Finding that he had no meat, however, Liu An killed his wife and used meat from her body to prepare Liu Bei a meal. When Bei left later, he found the body with a section carved out and was deeply moved by Liu An’s actions, realizing what had been done.

When he rejoined Cao Cao, he told him of what happened, and Cao Cao too was moved by the story of Liu An’s actions. Cao Cao sent money to compensate Liu An for his wife.

 :mindblown

Some commentary :
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/ghmx4v/comment/fqc8nnj/

One of Cao Cao's general also get an arrow in the eye and promptly swallow his own eyeball to continue charging, to stay within theme.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 10:04:27 AM by VomKriege »
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HardcoreRetro

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2022, 12:14:40 PM »
Each time I think about reading it, I see it's like 2400 pages long and stop thinking about it.

VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2022, 12:27:50 PM »
On the wheels of that thread being a rousing success I feel I must provide additional context.

In late IInd century AD/CE, China was ruled by the Han dynasty who until then had a decent run of 4 centuries or so. However the Imperial court was plagued by intrigue (squarely blamed on eunuchs), weak rulers and internal turmoil. As it generally happens, a combination of bad harvests & poor governance finally erupted in a massive revolt by commoners dubbed the Yellow Turbans/Scarfs rebellion which maybe left millions dead all told and said. To quell the uprising, armies were raised everywhere by local dignitaries. It didn't slow down intrigue in the capital and soon there was a succession crisis involving 2 heirs that were still children / young teens... You now have a bunch of warlords with huge armies in a power vacuum and the time is ripe to make a play for ABSOLUTE POWER. Ultimately the power struggle will filter down to three competing kingdoms / proclaimed dynasties (Wei, Shu, Wu) locked in a long stalemate but we're not yet at that point in our story.

The most important early players are :
- Liu Bei, a distant relative of the imperial family living a simple life supporting his mother until he levies an army to fight the Yellow Turbans alongside Zhang Fei and Guan Yu who become his sworn brothers.
- Cao Cao, a smart man reputed to be a great strategist (he supposedly annotated the Art of War by Sun Tzu) and scholar (poet, calligrapher) who makes the right moves early on to become the "guardian" of the capitol and the emperor, giving him that thick veneer of legitimacy and establish the Wei region.
- Lu Bu, the mightiest warrior of the era but all that min/maxing left him with a dismal LOYALTY stat that is about to bite him in the ass for good very soon.

The Romance... is often considered to be pro-Shu hence pro Liu Bei, with Cao Cao being elevated to the main antagonist.

In actuality, neither Wei, Wu or Shu will reunite China. The honor goes to rebellious officials from Wei forming the Jin dynasty. The pro Shu bias a millenia down the line is chalked up to a few explanations, from using Shu sources as the most primary or XIVth century political considerations colouring what was highlighted in the tale.
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Mupepe

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2022, 01:31:21 PM »
Well heck. I’m traveling internationally for work this week so I’ll give that podcast a go on my flights and jet lagged nights. Thank you.

VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2022, 04:57:07 AM »
- Textbook Confucianism doesn't fuck around.
- I thought that in the final stretch of his failed survivor run, Lu Bu didn't come off so bad, politically. If anything Liu Bei sounds like he's mostly fumbling around and coming at the 25th hour while Cao Cao did most of the heavy lifting.
- I know Zhang Fei grows to become a cunning strategist later on (before getting murked by his own men... Though this happens every other day apparently so it's not really that strong an indictment of his management) but he's creating so much problems for Liu Bei so far.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2022, 06:32:29 PM »
Does the precious ornate dagger that Cao Cao loaned to (hilariously fail to) kill Dong Zhuo ever come up again ?
It doesn't really get commented on but I'd imagine the people he borrowed it from and to whom he swore he would kill the tyrant must have felt pretty raw about the whole thing. Seems it was sweeped because bigger things immediately starts unfolding (and Cao Cao murders a whole farm full of servants and a friend of his father because of a mild paranoid rage which is of course held as not morally great but not all that important in the grand scheme of things. Being a commoner in ancient China sounds rough).

The whole botched backstab incident is probably apocryphal... The farm massacre however maybe happened (with an alternative motivation of being robbed by the people there).

DW8's Wei path opens up with the failed assassination attempt.  The dagger looks pretty normal tho.

VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2022, 03:03:03 AM »
Does the precious ornate dagger that Cao Cao loaned to (hilariously fail to) kill Dong Zhuo ever come up again ?
It doesn't really get commented on but I'd imagine the people he borrowed it from and to whom he swore he would kill the tyrant must have felt pretty raw about the whole thing. Seems it was sweeped because bigger things immediately starts unfolding (and Cao Cao murders a whole farm full of servants and a friend of his father because of a mild paranoid rage which is of course held as not morally great but not all that important in the grand scheme of things. Being a commoner in ancient China sounds rough).

The whole botched backstab incident is probably apocryphal... The farm massacre however maybe happened (with an alternative motivation of being robbed by the people there).

DW8's Wei path opens up with the failed assassination attempt.  The dagger looks pretty normal tho.

It's mentioned in the Romance that it is the "Seven Stars Dagger" he borrowed specifically from fellow conspirator Wang Yun, seemingly he needed a special one to play up the gift offering pretext (that he only ends up using after getting caught in flagrante) though there's maybe some symbolic significance. He's really specific he wants to borrow this one.

That's just a detail and the book doesn't care much for those sort of flourishes beyond their immediate use. Even the imperial seal, which is a recurring thing and a much more important object, only gets mentioned when directly relevant. There's no comment -apparently ?- about why it was tied to a dead body at the bottom of a wheel or why it was OK for General Sun Jian and his heirs to swipe and keep it for a number of years instead of returning it to the emperor that they all swear they serve at every opportunity.
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VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2022, 04:26:08 PM »
Journey to the West - Aside
Like the 3 kingdoms I was vaguely familiar with the general intrigue (I saw the Stephen Chow 2 part movie  :bernie) but I didn't know that beyond the long setup it was essentially an episodic feuilleton / a compilation of mostly self contained folk tales where our merry group of Buddhist pilgrims fight demons in an haunted mountain (or river).
Also Sun Wukong the Monkey Kong is not the theorical protagonist... though really the monk Xuanzang who leads the party sounds more like he's the designated figurehead.

I've been reading a bit more into the White Snake Lady tale since I like the Tsui Hark so much.

An interesting thing that seem to crop up both in the Monkey King, White Shake and elsewhere in Chinese mythology is the figure of fantastic animals striving to elevate themselves to illumination or humanity (really an obligatory step to attain the former). That's... Uplifting.
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VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2022, 04:58:13 AM »
- The Emperor's Brother In Law made the dumbest mistake : Don't write down the details of your criminal conspiracy.
- Mi Heng, a scholar so bitingly cynical and annoying that warlords keeps shuffling him around on diplomatic missions in the hope someone else will take the blame of killing him.
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VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2022, 06:10:02 AM »
- Stealing kills at the hunting party as much as a massive deal then than now online.
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VomKriege

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2022, 05:29:24 AM »
- Montypythonesque dark humor as slow administration kills half a dozen officers guarding passes for nothing (Dire Straits riff). Well, not for nothing, as it certainly built Guan Yu's legacy but you know...
- BTW lol at Cao Cao simping hard. We have no choice but to Stan our red faced thicc warrior.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 06:11:17 AM by VomKriege »
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms / Listen-a-long
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2022, 07:12:10 PM »
Does the precious ornate dagger that Cao Cao loaned to (hilariously fail to) kill Dong Zhuo ever come up again ?
It doesn't really get commented on but I'd imagine the people he borrowed it from and to whom he swore he would kill the tyrant must have felt pretty raw about the whole thing. Seems it was sweeped because bigger things immediately starts unfolding (and Cao Cao murders a whole farm full of servants and a friend of his father because of a mild paranoid rage which is of course held as not morally great but not all that important in the grand scheme of things. Being a commoner in ancient China sounds rough).

The whole botched backstab incident is probably apocryphal... The farm massacre however maybe happened (with an alternative motivation of being robbed by the people there).

DW8's Wei path opens up with the failed assassination attempt.  The dagger looks pretty normal tho.

It's mentioned in the Romance that it is the "Seven Stars Dagger" he borrowed specifically from fellow conspirator Wang Yun, seemingly he needed a special one to play up the gift offering pretext (that he only ends up using after getting caught in flagrante) though there's maybe some symbolic significance. He's really specific he wants to borrow this one.

That's just a detail and the book doesn't care much for those sort of flourishes beyond their immediate use. Even the imperial seal, which is a recurring thing and a much more important object, only gets mentioned when directly relevant. There's no comment -apparently ?- about why it was tied to a dead body at the bottom of a wheel or why it was OK for General Sun Jian and his heirs to swipe and keep it for a number of years instead of returning it to the emperor that they all swear they serve at every opportunity.

I imagine the target audience at the time of writing probably felt some of that was matter of fact and some context it lost to time.

RE: the dagger, I was just noting it's appearance, like hey! this made it in! and lack of pizazz in the adaptation.