Author Topic: The Bible and the Birth Rate  (Read 4849 times)

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Flannel Boy

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The Bible and the Birth Rate
« on: August 25, 2006, 12:51:22 AM »
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« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 01:57:06 PM by Malek: King of Kings »

brawndolicious

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2006, 12:59:37 AM »
Well they're zealots.

Vizzys

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2006, 12:59:56 AM »


 :shh  :lol
萌え~

etiolate

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2006, 01:37:07 AM »
malek your numbers need more context

Loki

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2006, 01:37:42 AM »
It would be interesting to correlate that with birth rates based on socioeconomic status in order to disentangle any confounding variables which might be present.  For instance, more affluent people are generally better educated; better educated people are, according to the studies I've seen, less inclined towards religion.  It stands to reason, then, that you'd have a preponderance of religious people in the lower classes; while their birth rate might be higher, it would be difficult to ascribe that to any single cause, since religiosity, socioeconomic status, or (the relative lack of) educational attainment might be to blame.  They'd have to control for all of these factors in order to reach a more firm and meaningful conclusion.

I don't doubt the premise, however -- that being that religiosity leads to more reproduction -- if only for the fact that "be fruitful and multiply" is a pretty well-accepted religious mandate (other factors, such as the relative rates of contraception usage, can also be viewed as educational issues within communities, though these too are difficult to extricate from one another, and indeed are themselves frequently related to religious doctrine).
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 11:36:30 AM by Loki »

BlueTsunami

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2006, 01:42:32 AM »
I wonder why demi is actively viewing this thread... :meeble
:9

brawndolicious

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2006, 01:44:36 AM »
It would be interesting to correlate that with birth rates based on socioeconomic status in order to disentangle any confounding variables which might be present.  For instance, more affluent people are generally better educated; better educated people are, according to the studies I've seen, less inclined towards religion.  It stands to reason, then, that you'd have a preponderance of religious people in the lower classes; while their birth rate might be higher, it would be difficult to ascribe that fact to any single cause, since religiosity, socioeconomic status, or (the relative lack of) educational attainment might be to blame.  They'd have to control for all of these factors in order to get a more firm and meaningful conclusion.
I don't doubt the premise, however -- that being that religiosity leads to more reproduction -- if only for the fact that "be fruitful and multiply" is a pretty well-accepted religious mandate (other factors, such as the relative rates of contraception usage, can also be viewed as educational issues within communities, though these too are difficult to extricate from one another, and indeed are themselves frequently related to religious doctrine).
well religious people have lots of abortions so it's all a question of how much forethought they have.

Loki

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2006, 01:54:59 AM »
well religious people have lots of abortions so it's all a question of how much forethought they have.

Perhaps; I saw a topic posted recently on OA that asserted the same thing, but I didn't really read it.  If true, it's most likely due to the disapprobation of out-of-wedlock births within religious communities.  Of course, that doesn't make it any less hypocritical of them...

brawndolicious

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2006, 01:57:58 AM »
well religious people have lots of abortions so it's all a question of how much forethought they have.

Perhaps; I saw a topic posted recently on OA that asserted the same thing, but I didn't really read it.  If true, it's most likely due to the disapprobation of out-of-wedlock births within religious communities.  Of course, that doesn't make it any less hypocritical of them...
no oral you know?

Loki

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2006, 02:00:37 AM »
no oral you know?

They're trying to walk the straight and narrow, not the long and engorged. ;)

Flannel Boy

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2006, 02:02:20 AM »
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« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 01:57:40 PM by Malek: King of Kings »

brawndolicious

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2006, 02:09:14 AM »
They're trying to walk the straight and narrow, not the long and engorged. ;)
oh my.

Vizzys

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2006, 02:09:37 AM »
loki, you sir are very well spoken! and those charts you spoke of about more intelligent people leaning towards atheism are real and were on OA as well.
萌え~

Loki

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2006, 02:12:29 AM »
Loki, certainly there are many factors that influence birth-rates, but I have little doubt that religiosity is one of them.

I think it would be hard to control for income, because level of income may in part be caused by religiosity. For instance a family's income may be lower because of their particular religious beliefs which preclude the wife from working and thus earning any income. The fact that the family isn't affluent may not cause religiosity, but actually be an effect of religiosity. So if we found that people with lower incomes were more religious and had more children we could not conclude that low income caused both the religiosity and the high birth rate. It may be that religiosity was the cause of both.

Yeah, that's pretty much the definition of a confound ;)  (i.e., a third variable not being explicitly taken into account producing a seeming causal relationship between the two variables under consideration).  My point is that you'd need a more robust correlational design to truly ascertain anything meaningful.  As it stands, one can infer things, but not very conclusively.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 02:15:30 AM by Loki »

Flannel Boy

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2006, 02:15:10 AM »
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« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 01:57:54 PM by Malek: King of Kings »

Loki

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2006, 02:19:24 AM »
The only think I said conclusively was that Drinky should have more children.  :starwars

On this we can all agree.  :D 

(I also didn't mean to imply that you personally had read too much into the information posted; I was just speaking in general :))

Quote
edit: points numbered one and two in my original post were not conclusions from this particular data, but from studies done on identical twins.

I figured as much, since the birth rate info has nothing to do with heritability.  What do you take me for, malek? ;)  :P
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 02:21:37 AM by Loki »

etiolate

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2006, 02:22:10 AM »
The poor reporoduce faster as well.  The poor tend to be religious. I am not sure how you show which is influencing the other. Unless the low income results in less health care and less access to birth preventions. 
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 02:23:45 AM by etiolate »

Flannel Boy

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2006, 02:23:55 AM »
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« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 01:58:04 PM by Malek: King of Kings »

Loki

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2006, 02:24:04 AM »
The poor reporoduce faster as well.  The poor tend to be religious. I am not sure how you show which is influencing the other.

I take it you didn't read my post.  And here I thought we were friends...  :'( ;)

Quote
It's late. You might have been drinking. I can't take anything for granted.

True -- you know what happens when you assume. :D

(actually, the way you phrased that made me laugh: "I can't take anything for granted" :lol )


etiolate

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2006, 02:39:02 AM »
I pretty much haven't read anyone's posts today.

Loki

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2006, 02:41:24 AM »
I pretty much haven't read anyone's posts today.

So you think that cuts it, huh?  HUH !?  :P

etiolate

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2006, 02:50:45 AM »
Cuts it like an undead pirate!

Actually I started reading your reply and Malek's before I hit reply, but obviously not the whole reply.


BUT I DON'T THINK ANYONE SAID THIS YET

I want to know more about the numbers in regard to the point. Like how old were the children?. And 2.17 what? Is that a ratio, a shortened total, a out of 10, etc.

The thing is, reproduction doesn't happen at gradeschool age(well okay maybe thats changing but), so you got to think teenage and up.  Puberty is normally when an individual first questions the things they have been taught and that includes religion.  So if a classroom full of kids believe in the religion they're taught that doesn't mean they think the same as a young adult. Even if faith isn't rejected during puberty, ones idea of normally alters. 

I don't really care though.  WHY AM I REPLYING. 

off to undead pirates murdering topless women 

Mondain

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2006, 03:01:37 AM »
I think there are other factors than the lack of education that leads the poor to better religiosity. I'm not sure that one's degree of education accounts for that much, seeing as the medias educate nearly everyone fairly enough on the basic principles of spirituality and everyone consumes them. The average Joe is far smarter than he used to be, and probably reasonably enough to decide whatever he believes in with lucidity.

The rich have money that gives them comfort and safety, and thus have the luxury of envisioning life more cynically, and take our traditional dogmas less seriously considering that money makes them feel less petty. The poor are spiritually weaker and need stable sacred cows to hang onto when facing hard times. They're more afraid of the future and need some form of palliative comfort.

Like Loki said I'm really skeptical at the correlation put forth in this thread. Also, I'd think that a weaker financial situation makes the poor worry less about birth control, and have more short-lasting/shady sexual partners than those who can attract valuable persons having enough means to build stable unions.

The last point would be in tune with malek's threads about money being the biggest factor of attraction for women towards men, and thus probably in society as a metric.

Mandark

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2006, 03:14:24 AM »
It would be interesting to correlate that with birth rates based on socioeconomic status in order to disentangle any confounding variables which might be present.
Amen.  Also, religiosity in America almost certainly maps with a traditional view of gender roles (stay-at-home moms).

Apparently the guy who's doing this seems to be a bit of a crank (constantly producing studies that show conservatives are more betterer than liberals), and some of his calculations seem to be out of thin air (he suggests the birth rate would cause an 8% spread over just 8 years, which is nuts).  The data doesn't seem to be controlled for age, either.

Oh well.  At least it's not thinly veiled racism like the stuff from Pat Buchanan or Mark Steyn.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2006, 10:23:45 AM »
 :'(
010

Flannel Boy

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2006, 01:23:15 PM »
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« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 01:58:32 PM by Malek: King of Kings »

Flannel Boy

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2006, 01:31:49 PM »
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« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 01:58:41 PM by Malek: King of Kings »

Loki

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Re: The Bible and the Birth Rate
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2006, 01:36:52 PM »
As male income goes up, his reproduction success goes up while there is an inverse effect for women.
(Image removed from quote.)



That's to be expected given the demands that having a career places on a woman.  As the number of dual-income families has risen in first-world nations, the birthrate has declined, though obviously there are other sociological factors to consider.