Author Topic: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?  (Read 1398 times)

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Saint Cornelius

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Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« on: March 30, 2007, 04:17:15 PM »
I don't know if this should be in the gaming section or not, because it also applies to like, used CDs... but anyways.

I just got done reading Tycho's rant on PA today, and something he said got me thinking.

Quote
For me, it's not any more complicated than "used titles don't support the people who make games." The sale doesn't exist. I don't expect this to be a concept that the Madden Gamer seizes upon and makes his way of life. But as people who genuinely respect the medium and those who toil to refine and elevate our leisure hours, it's worth keeping in mind.

Sports gamer dis aside, I was surprised that Tycho feels this way. I don't understand how the sale of used games or used CDs negatively impacts the developers / musicians. Other than promotional copies (which most stores won't even sell), someone had to buy the game / cd in the first place - giving the developer or musician their cut. What happens with that item AFTER the original sale has been made shouldn't be an issue... should it? Or am I missing something here? I mean, I very well could be, that's why I'm asking the good folk of EB what they think.
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Mupepe

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2007, 04:22:41 PM »
I try not to buy used anything for that very reason.  It's also the same reason I don't pirate much either. 

It shouldn't be made an issue though (used stuff) because it's no longer their property, that disc has been purchased and it's not like two discs suddenly appear.  But it's more of a personal decision on whether or not you really want to support that particular artist.

Saint Cornelius

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2007, 04:28:08 PM »
So the problem is that the game / CD should be bought twice, both new? That way, a person that is interested in buying something used doesn't have that option.

I can understand that, but it seems greedy.
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Himu

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2007, 04:32:18 PM »
Look at it this way. If I love a game I bought used enough, I may buy it new someday. And if I love it enough, I'll buy the next game in the series new. I think of it as an investment. Unless you really have my trust, I don't really feel I SHOULD buy a game new. They're expensive as it is. I have little room for doubt.
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G The Resurrected

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2007, 04:37:28 PM »
And you wonder why EB/Gamestop stay in buisness. All the money they get off used games goes right back into their buisness. Unlike the new games where it barely goes back to them. Same goes for movies and cds. The money goes right back to the store that sells the used products.

Saint Cornelius

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2007, 04:38:43 PM »
I understand all that. What I don't understand is how buying used stuff hurts developers / musicians. Like I said, it's already been bought once!
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Fragamemnon

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2007, 04:39:41 PM »
The publisher and creator don't ever see anything from the second transaction, only the first, though. It negatively hurts developers and content creators when used game sales supplant those of new game sales-say, for example, when you can get $5 off a game by buying used from EB instead of buying the new copy. All of the profit from that sale goes to EB, where as the new retail sale sends money to the retailer, publisher (often the funder of the game), and creators of the game themselves.

Especially when you move away from the 500k+ blockbuster games down to niche titles, used game sales really start to hurt the industry. Publishers don't get the sales from all the people playing the game, and might just not fund another game of its type if used sales cannabalize too much into new sales-if 100K copies of your game are sold total, but only 80K of them as new, that's 20% of unrealized sales.

Thankfully, used PC game sales have been a thing of the past for a few years now (no one wants to buy a used copy of a game where they don't know if the CD-KEY will work or not, etc.), so it's a non-issue for the platform that I play on. But I wouldn't even think of buying a niche game like Puzzle Quest or one of those DS or PSP RPGs used-support the platform and industry if you want further games like it.

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Himu

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2007, 04:40:30 PM »
Because it supposedly stifles out potential NEW game/cd buyers.
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Mupepe

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2007, 04:42:02 PM »
So the problem is that the game / CD should be bought twice, both new? That way, a person that is interested in buying something used doesn't have that option.

I can understand that, but it seems greedy.
I don't think it should be bought twice.  I think people have the right to buy used things.  My own personal opinion though is that if you really like the artist and want to support them, you should buy it new.

MrAngryFace

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2007, 04:44:55 PM »
For musicians im not exactly sure how CD sales directly affect them. Sales affect LABELS which in turn give a very small percentage to musicians, who make most of their money on concerts and what not.

Regarding the issue of games, generally a good game regardless of the hype will sell well through new copies on its own through word of mouth. Well hyped copies will sell well just because. Comparing these sales to CD is silly because:

A.) CDs are cheap to produce, and the actual amount of labor put into their creation is significantly less. Unless of course you want to put an actual quantitative value on the amount of effort put out by the vocal chords of the singer in the booth.

B.) Games sell for A LOT. Material costs aside games are starting to cost more and more with each console, and the sale of 100,000+ new copies is a lot of bucks. Games that dont sell that well generally dont for obvious reasons. I HOPE the used sale of some shitty game hurts the pride of some developer out there.

IF a company loses money on a game despite impressive sales figures during the 'new' run its because they weren't efficient in the process. PRO TIP: FINE TUNE YOUR BUSINESS.

So in short, used games arent a bad idea. Most stores arent designed to hold new copies of a game on the shelf past three months anyway. Forcing games to be sold as new would either force retailers to do more special order shipments which DO cost money, or redesign their stores to accomodate that weird bastard that wants a new copy of barbies horse adventures.
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Himu

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2007, 04:46:41 PM »
There are a lot of good games that don't sell well maf.

"generally a good game regardless of the hype will sell well through new copies on its own through word of mouth" I completely disagree.
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Mupepe

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2007, 04:47:08 PM »
There are a lot of good games that don't sell well maf.
Yeah, like Okami :'(

Answer my PM please

MrAngryFace

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2007, 04:48:35 PM »
Thats why I said GENERALLY. There are more cases of good games selling well than not.
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2007, 06:07:55 PM »
first off, the devs have probably already been paid, by the publisher. they get a lump sum to develop the title, and then some small royalty amount for additional sales beyond a certain level. a game has to really break the bank open for the royalties to be worth more than chump change.

second of all, the publisher gets paid by the retail chains and the warehouses for specific shipments. even if atlus loli rpg #199 only sold through 158 copies to the internet pedo community, atlus already made its money when it sold the initial 10,000 copy production run to the retailers/warehouses. until another shipment is requested by the retailers/wholesalers from the publisher, no additional royalties will be paid, either.

the ONLY scenario where the dev gets extra dollars based on marginal additional sales is when the dev house themselves publishes, distributes, and sells the game themselves over the internet or through mail-order, OR when a game has a very conservative sales estimate and then has demand rocket whereby the publisher gets additional orders above and beyond the set order schedule.

really, at the end of the day, a games sales are determined in the first three weeks. buying used for 90% of the games that don't have an unanticipated long shelf life won't hurt the devs at all, and it clearly benefits the asshole retailers. publishers are the ones that get stuck buying back unsold copies in many cases, so while buying used does a little bad in overall sales margins and long-term sales schedules, it also does a little good by dicking over publishers. it's largely a neutral exercise overall.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 08:38:05 PM by Drinky Crow »
duc

Mondain

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2007, 06:50:17 PM »
why are these types of debates always viewed as if the corporations were owed your dollars? and is your infinitesimal patronage worth anything? why should anyone feel guilty over it?

you don't owe jack shit to game editors and retailers, life has more important issues, don't beat yourself up morally and get your shit any way you see fit
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 06:56:51 PM by Mondain »

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2007, 08:25:26 PM »
i dunno, tumaro, why do the developers/publishers owe you games for free?
duc

Mupepe

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2007, 08:29:53 PM »
why are these types of debates always viewed as if the corporations were owed your dollars? and is your infinitesimal patronage worth anything? why should anyone feel guilty over it?

you don't owe jack shit to game editors and retailers, life has more important issues, don't beat yourself up morally and get your shit any way you see fit
That makes no sense.  No one said the corporations are owed our dollar.  The majority of the debate is about whether or not used sales have any effect on how much money the artist/developer pockets.  It's about if you buy a used game made by a developer that you truly respect and appreciate, does it really hurt their bottom line?

GET OUTTA MY THREAD JOTARO

Ichirou

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2007, 08:50:49 PM »

That makes no sense.  No one said the corporations are owed our dollar.  The majority of the debate is about whether or not used sales have any effect on how much money the artist/developer pockets.  It's about if you buy a used game made by a developer that you truly respect and appreciate, does it really hurt their bottom line?

GET OUTTA MY THREAD JOTARO

First off, I seriously read that as GET OUTTA MY HEAD CHARLES.

Second, I personally feel no sense of obligation/guilt to buy something new, even if it's by a developer whose work I have some special affinity for.  I figure as long as I'm buying a legit copy, whether it's new or used, I'm supporting them.
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Mondain

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2007, 09:16:04 PM »
why are these types of debates always viewed as if the corporations were owed your dollars? and is your infinitesimal patronage worth anything? why should anyone feel guilty over it?

you don't owe jack shit to game editors and retailers, life has more important issues, don't beat yourself up morally and get your shit any way you see fit
That makes no sense.  No one said the corporations are owed our dollar.  The majority of the debate is about whether or not used sales have any effect on how much money the artist/developer pockets.  It's about if you buy a used game made by a developer that you truly respect and appreciate, does it really hurt their bottom line?

what effect could your dollars have on a game's success in the first place?

not only that, but even if an empire like GameStop will abuse the practice, it doesn't take anything away from the fact that the industry only has itself to blame for this situation, if you recall DVDEmpire's closure-- it was due to the fact that it's basically IMPOSSIBLE for a retailer to make money from selling new games

used games are a game retailer's bread and butter, without them mom & pops chains couldn't exist, and now if game industry majors decry this situation it's hypocritical since they're the ones having to change their practices

the average gamer is insignificant and has other worries and doesn't have to carry that cross, but still majors will attribute the blame to him by saying say, that he's a pirate or that he should buy the games he likes upon release, to justify their game bombing

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2007, 09:25:02 PM »
what in the holy hell are you babbling about

make sense, man
duc

Mondain

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2007, 09:27:03 PM »
ah fuck it I'm done with this boring shithole

so long

Ichirou

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2007, 09:35:51 PM »
Actually, what Mondain is saying does make sense.  DVDEmpire's gaming section closed down because they weren't able to make profits off of selling new games, the publishers just take way too big a chunk of the profits.  Used games are EB and GameStop's bread and butter.

I've got nothing against buying used games, it just pisses me off that EB and GameStop treat their used games like shit and have the cases covered with nasty stickers and they accept discs that are obviously scratched and sometimes unplayable.
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2007, 10:56:52 PM »
given that he pirates at least 90% of not 100% of his games, i can't say i like the general tack he's aiming for. i can agree with the premise -- publishers take too much and thus the creators and/or retailers see very little -- but not the conclusion, which is that the outright theft of digital property is now somehow morally irrelevant. the existence of one problem does not in any way suggest that it might be okay to perpetuate another.

just because theft is convenient or can somehow be excused as "duplication" doesn't make it justifiable. pirates disingenuously act like sales aren't lost by their selfish hijinks, but if piracy wasn't an option, they'd hafta at least buy a few games a year, instead of none at all. jotaro'd eventually shell out for at LEAST half of the third-rate fighting games and ps2 rpg he plays; hell, he might even get a job.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 11:03:05 PM by Drinky Crow »
duc

Ichirou

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2007, 11:23:03 PM »
Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't approve of video game piracy and it's not something I personally do.  I didn't realize that's what Mondain was trying to justify with his post.  I just refuse to feel guilty for saving a few bucks by buying a used game.
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MrAngryFace

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2007, 01:21:43 AM »
I dont know if used games = piracy.

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2007, 02:01:35 AM »
Mondain's way off anyway. The fact is, around a quarter of developers receive additional compensation from profit sharing or royalties - it's not just the publishers getting every cent of the money. Not even close.

So, yes, buying used software or music does affect the artist/developer. But, it's legal.
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xnikki118x

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2007, 03:05:05 AM »
Well I don't buy games because I just play them on my computer, but I'll buy used CDs.

The reality is that on major labels, the artist gets like pennies for every album sold. Their money is made from touring. I'll have a bunch of pirated CDs of a band and I'll go see a concert of theirs, and they'll get more money from my ticket than they would have if I bought the albums.

Some artists have their own independent labels though, and for those, I buy the actual albums.
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G The Resurrected

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2007, 03:07:22 AM »
Well I don't buy games because I just play them on my computer, but I'll buy used CDs.

The reality is that on major labels, the artist gets like pennies for every album sold. Their money is made from touring. I'll have a bunch of pirated CDs of a band and I'll go see a concert of theirs, and they'll get more money from my ticket than they would have if I bought the albums.

Some artists have their own independent labels though, and for those, I buy the actual albums.

thats how to do it. Thats what i'm gonna do from now on. I wonder what they are making off the digital stuff nowadays though.

Ichirou

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Re: Used games / CDs don't support developers / musicians?
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2007, 03:36:17 AM »
I still buy CDs (as opposed to going through iTunes or pirating) because I like having the booklets and stuff.  I will buy individual songs off iTunes, though, just to get a taste of a particular band.  But I'm not a hardk0r music fan so it doesn't really matter, heh.
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