Do you think Heroes is biting The Watchmen?

[Saint Cornelius]

Lots of similarities between the two...

April 24, 2007 -- AFTER helming the surprise Spartan war smash "300," director Zack Snyder could write his own ticket in Hollywood.

So he did what any comic book fan would. For his next project, he chose "Watchmen."

Written by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons in 1986-87, "Watchmen" is considered a classic - perhaps the best comic book ever made. Sophisticated in its theme, complicated in its telling, Moore described himself as trying to make "a superhero 'Moby-Dick,' something that had that sort of weight, that sort of density."

It is also cursed, at least in Hollywood terms. Development of a "Watchmen" movie has bounced around for two decades, with everyone from Terry Gilliam to Joel Silver to Darren Aronofsky attached.

Snyder may have the clout to get it made. But it seems the curse has struck again in the form of a television show. "Heroes" - the popular series on NBC - not only swiped "Watchmen" 's climax, it may have stolen its thunder.

(This is the part where those who don't want to know what happens in "Watchmen" or last night's "Heroes" should stop reading.)

"Watchmen" centers around a group of vigilantes who fight crime with their fists and gadgets, not unlike Batman. But public sentiment turns against the "masks," and they are all forced into retirement, except one - the only one with actual supernatural powers, the nuclear-altered Dr. Manhattan. The retirees find life more than a little boring, as they become paunchy middle-age once-weres (similar to what "The Incredibles" did to comedic effect).

But the murder of one of the vigilantes, the Comedian, sets off an investigation by the surviving masks, including the mentally unstable Rorschach and the good-hearted but uncertain Nite-Owl.

What they discover is a plot by one of their former teammates, the wealthy Adrian Veidt, who goes by the ancient Egyptian name Ozymandias.

Ozymandias has staged a fake alien invasion of New York, killing half the city's population in the process, in an effort to stop the Cold War and save the Earth from nuclear crisis by uniting the world.

Not only are the masks too late to stop Ozymandias, Veidt's plan actually works. And all the masks are faced with the ethical dilemma of telling the world what they know - and risk destroying the peace. Dr. Manhattan even kills Rorschach rather than have him reveal the secret.

"Heroes" centers around a similar catastrophe - a nuclear explosion that, coincidentally, wipes out half the population of New York at some undetermined future. In last night's episode, the mob boss Linderman (Malcolm McDowell) reveals that he knows the bomb is going to go off and wants it to - because the destruction of New York will unite the world in peace behind a new president he is grooming.

At the end of the episode, that candidate - Nathan Petrelli (Adrian Pasdar) - hinted that he was going along with the plan, even if it means the death of his brother, because of the good it will bring.

Tim Kring, the creator of "Heroes," was out of the country, but has said in interviews in the past that he doesn't know comics that well - similarities are coincidental. And one could argue that the show is a patchwork of popular comic book themes beyond "Watchmen," taking the mutant gene, for instance, directly from "X-Men." Or that the plot is different enough because Ozymandias plans the attack, while Linderman simply does nothing to stop it (as far as we know).

But Snyder and his bosses are probably more than a little ticked off. For a movie that will cost hundreds of millions, and could star Tom Cruise as Ozymandias if the Hollywood rumor mill is right, it can be galling to see such a pivotal plot twist used elsewhere.

Fans have waited two decades to see "Watchmen" put on-screen. The last thing Snyder wants is for people to think they already have.

[Himu]

OMG THE WATCHMEN MOVIE

[Human Snorenado]

Trying to make something as dense and involved as Watchmen into a two hour movie is a losing proposition.  Best bet would be an HBO one season miniseries, where they did one episode per original comic.

[The Fake Shemp]

Trying to make something as dense and involved as Watchmen into a two hour movie is a losing proposition.  Best bet would be an HBO one season miniseries, where they did one episode per original comic.

Not really.  It's not the amount of content that has to be put into a theatrical running time, but the kind of content.  There's some weird metaphysical stuff that will be hard to be pieced together in a coherent film structure.  Hell, there's a lot of stuff that will be difficult to put together in a coherent film structure.  Drawing it out over television won't help much either.

[Saint Cornelius]

Yes but do you guys think Heroes is borrowing a little too heavily from The Watchmen, like?

[The Fake Shemp]

That's kind of irrelevant.  That's like Zack Snyder getting upset that terrorists killed thousands in New York City and (briefly) united everyone together.  The concept that destruction brings people together is not new.  Although, real-life has shown that destruction usually unites people together in anger and we move head fast for retaliation.  Kill the mutants!

[Saint Cornelius]

Okay, that's rude to tell me that my question is irrelevant. 

[The Fake Shemp]

Okay, that's rude to tell me that my question is irrelevant. 

I was more or less responding that Zack Snyder might not be happy if Heroes uses a similar plot device to The Watchmen.  As a show about superheroes - of course it borrows from comics, but most of the concepts in comics are hardly original.  I do think Tim Kring is being a bit of wanker if he doesn't admit to reading comics, considering most of his material is pulled from a bunch of 'em.

[Himu]

Yes but do you guys think Heroes is borrowing a little too heavily from The Watchmen, like?

I don't really care. Yes, I know Heroes isn't that original, but it's GOOD. Like Willco said, comics aren't particularly a good source to scope out originality. The Watchmen is so good, however, that any comparisons to Heroes shouldn't even matter due to it's quality.

[Saint Cornelius]

Oh, okay. Gotcha.

Yeah, I guess "killing for the greater good" isn't really an original premise.

I don't really care. Yes, I know Heroes isn't that original, but it's GOOD.

Don't get me wrong, I love the show! But The Watchmen is one of my favorite comics of ALL TIME and it's hard to believe that Tim Kring doesn't read comix when the similarities are so close.

[Himu]

I agree that if he says he doesn't read comics he is fucking bullshitting.

[The Fake Shemp]

He might not read comics, but his writing staff sure does!

[Bacon]

It's not like anyone knows what the fuck The Watchmen is anyway.

[Saint Cornelius]

Maybe knuckledragging troglodytes such as yourself, perhaps.

[Bacon]

Which is the majority of the Heroes audience.

[Saint Cornelius]

Oh, so just hating out of spite, then? Poor thing.

[bluemax]

Considering the Watchmen movie can't be anything but a disaster, I'd say it is probably for the best that Heroes does this.

Man anytime a Watchmen discussion comes up I want to read it again. Good thing I have it on my hard drive.

[Bacon]

I love Heroes.

[MrAngryFace]

I thought people were saying Heroes was ripping off 4400.

[Human Snorenado]

Trying to make something as dense and involved as Watchmen into a two hour movie is a losing proposition.  Best bet would be an HBO one season miniseries, where they did one episode per original comic.

Not really.  It's not the amount of content that has to be put into a theatrical running time, but the kind of content.  There's some weird metaphysical stuff that will be hard to be pieced together in a coherent film structure.  Hell, there's a lot of stuff that will be difficult to put together in a coherent film structure.  Drawing it out over television won't help much either.

Nah, I'd want the whole damn story.  I mean, using comics has to be easier anyway- lots of dialog and storyboards are already fucking DONE for you.  Just use the original comics, have a 12 part series.  It would be the tits.

[BobbyRobby]

I have a feeling they're going to tone Rorshach, and some other things in Watchmen down, if it's so big Tom Cruise is starring.  That would suck.

[TVC15]

Nite Owl and Doctor Manhattan will get hosed.  Night Owl because his story is the weakest and Dr. Manhattan because he be nekkid all the time.  In a 2 hour movie, they can really only focus on a few aspects of the book, and I think Rorschach will be the focus because he is the most immediately interesting character.

[Saint Cornelius]

From what people are saying they are trying to make Ozymandias the focus (good guy?) which would make Rorschach the (bad?) guy which is why they shouldn't make the movie in the first place.

Seriously, I would set fire to the fucking theaters playing the film if they went that route.

[The Fake Shemp]

BURN THAT MOTHAFUCKAH TO THE GROUND CORNY

[Scurvy Stan]

I'd vote a big fat NO on a watchmen movie. Can't be done justice in a movie IMO.

[Smooth Groove]

Do the characters in Heroes all have superpowers?  I haven't watched the show.  A bunch of superpowered characters would make the show pretty different from Watchmen. 

[Fresh Prince]

Nite Owl and Doctor Manhattan will get hosed.  Night Owl because his story is the weakest and Dr. Manhattan because he be nekkid all the time.  In a 2 hour movie, they can really only focus on a few aspects of the book, and I think Rorschach will be the focus because he is the most immediately interesting character.

I dunno Nite Owl plays the everyman character though I do expect his back story to get cut short I expect him to be still in there.

[BobbyRobby]

When I said I was worried they might tone Rorshach down, I wasn't talking about his role.  I was just thinking they'd make him more PC.

Though it'd suck exponentially more if they portray Ozymandias as the hero as mentioned earlier iun this topic.

[TakingBackSunday]

So wait was this as good as V for Vendetta or the Killing Joke?

Alan Moore  ...but I haven't ever read this.

[TakingBackSunday]

I wouldn't know, I've only read thw two I've mentioned.  And I LOVED V for Vendetta.

[Verboten]

Yes, it's ripping off Watchmen and it's not coincidencial. Personally, if they go ahead with that plotline that's so very similar to another comic book (and not just any other comic book), then this is where Heroes officially jumps/flies/teleports over the shark.

[Human Snorenado]

So wait was this as good as V for Vendetta or the Killing Joke?

Alan Moore  ...but I haven't ever read this.

You've never read Watchmen?  :boggle

It's not just the pinnacle of prose in the comic world... it made Time's list of the best 100 novels ever written.  It's THAT GOOD.  Go buy it, then rub it on your crotch before you read it.

[ferrarimanf355]

I have a feeling they're going to tone Rorshach, and some other things in Watchmen down, if it's so big Tom Cruise is starring.  That would suck.

Tom Cruise is starring? Lowering expectations now...

[Saint Cornelius]

Yes, it's ripping off Watchmen and it's not coincidencial. Personally, if they go ahead with that plotline that's so very similar to another comic book (and not just any other comic book), then this is where Heroes officially jumps/flies/teleports over the shark.

great, of all the people that i'd hope to answer my question, it ends up being Verboten taking me seriously?

[Verboten]

Yes... just as Dr. Manhattan had to agree with Veidt, you have to agree with me. Strange fate, isn't it? "Strange and ironic that it will end the same way!"

Anyhow, this isn't the first time something like this happened. The third Blade movie was supposed to center around a world that was overrun by vampires that were immune to daylight and very few humans. It was intentionally based/writen in homage of some other popular vampire story that was in novel form, but before it was released as the shit-fest Blade: Trinity, someone had acquire the rights to it and the director of Blade: Trinity had to respectfully change their story. So look at that, even someone with shit flowing through their brains had the decency and better judgement to avoid doing the same.

[Verboten]

Doublepost >;(

Tom Cruise is starring? Lowering expectations now...

As much as I abhor him, it's a role that kinda makes sense, but he has to be taller.

[Bacon]

I Am Legend?

[TVC15]

Just so you know Corny, I bought the show because of this thread :p

[Human Snorenado]

Just so you know Corny, I bought the show because of this thread :p

It's actually really, really good.  I didn't want it to be, and didn't bother checking it out until this week.  But it's quite good, minus some irrationally stupid decisions on the parts of some characters.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

People have had Sylar at their mercy how many times and haven't just offed him?

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[TVC15]

Just so you know Corny, I bought the show because of this thread :p

It's actually really, really good.  I didn't want it to be, and didn't bother checking it out until this week.  But it's quite good, minus some irrationally stupid decisions on the parts of some characters.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

People have had Sylar at their mercy how many times and haven't just offed him?

[close]

Well, I figure if it's comic booky and it's managed to net this much attention and discussion, it's at least worth checking out.  My expectations have been set - I am aware that the writing starts off a little too close to comic cheesy for its own good.  I can't resist Christopher Eccleston's charms, though.

[Human Snorenado]

Just so you know Corny, I bought the show because of this thread :p

It's actually really, really good.  I didn't want it to be, and didn't bother checking it out until this week.  But it's quite good, minus some irrationally stupid decisions on the parts of some characters.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

People have had Sylar at their mercy how many times and haven't just offed him?

[close]

Well, I figure if it's comic booky and it's managed to net this much attention and discussion, it's at least worth checking out.  My expectations have been set - I am aware that the writing starts off a little too close to comic cheesy for its own good.  I can't resist Christopher Eccleston's charms, though.

Yeah, I didn't know he was in it until he showed up.  Be warned though, he doesn't show up until the later episodes.

[Saint Cornelius]

And I don't care what anyone says, it has the best (and most blatant) use of product placement this side of 30 Rock

spoiler (click to show/hide)

and what the fuck about Alec trying to leave the show because he's sad his angry VM to his fat pig of a daughter got leaked... by KIM, probably. he MAKES that show. but i could see Jeffery Tambor playing a similar role, worst came to worst....

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

People have had Sylar at their mercy how many times and haven't just offed him?

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

how can they off him when he's got all sorts of powers that keep them from fucking with him? the only reason peter's made it this far is b/c he too has all sorts of groovy powers.

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[Human Snorenado]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

People have had Sylar at their mercy how many times and haven't just offed him?

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

how can they off him when he's got all sorts of powers that keep them from fucking with him? the only reason peter's made it this far is b/c he too has all sorts of groovy powers.

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dude, Bennet had him at his mercy at the paper company for like WEEKS.  They could have killed him any number of times.  And when Surresh had the IV in initially, he could have killed him and THEN gotten some spinal fluid.  DUMB.  Although I realize it's a longstanding tradition in comics.

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