New Hate Crimes Bill - Bush am Veto Happy Total

[MrAngryFace]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18473074/

WASHINGTON - Just hours after the White House issued a veto threat Thursday, the House voted to add gender and sexual orientation to the categories covered by federal hate crimes law.

The House legislation, passed 237-180, also makes it easier for federal law enforcement to take part in or assist local prosecutions involving bias-motivated attacks. Similar legislation is also moving through the Senate, setting the stage for another veto showdown with President Bush.

But Dr. James C. Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family, warned that the true intent of the bill was “to muzzle people of faith who dare to express their moral and biblical concerns about homosexuality.”

"express concerns" is organized religion code for "hate crimes"

[FlameOfCallandor]

Hate Crime is fucking bullshit. Is there ever a Love crime?

"Yea' I shot that nicca cause i was just feeling like showing him a little love today"

[MrAngryFace]

Hate Crime is fucking bullshit. Is there ever a Love crime?

"Yea' I shot that nicca cause i was just feeling like showing him a little love today"

Are your responses just pure reflex?

[FlameOfCallandor]

Who actually thinks hate crime laws are a good idea? Just have laws that apply to everyone the same fucking way. Making laws that try to determine if something was done out of "hate" is just bullshit and up to too much opinion.

[Bloodwake]

Hate Crime is fucking bullshit. Is there ever a Love crime?

"Yea' I shot that nicca cause i was just feeling like showing him a little love today"

This absolutely makes no fucking sense.

Anyways, fuck Bush and fuck Dobson. I'm sick and fucking tired of people getting away with this shit.

[MrAngryFace]

Who actually thinks hate crime laws are a good idea? Just have laws that apply to everyone the same fucking way. Making laws that try to determine if something was done out of "hate" is just bullshit and up to too much opinion.

Hate Crime laws are NOT going away, no matter how much your crack addled brain rationalizes a Mad Max legal system. Point is our CULTURE is far more diverse than when these laws were initially conceived and hate crimes against homosexuals is a very real thing.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Yea have a system of laws that are equal is "Mad Max"

The reason there is so much race,gender and sexuality problems in the country is because everyone feels the need to differentiate every fucking corner of life. Oh you are gay? Here is a gay fraternity. Oh your black and you got shot by a white guy? Here is a law that says he did it because white men hate all black guys.

How about just having laws that dont distinguish such things.

[MrAngryFace]

Youre a distinguished mentally-challenged fellow, any legal system you had a hand in WOULD be like Mad Max, and not the good Mad Max but the one with Tina Turner.

[Phoenix Dark]

The mere idea "hate crimes" has always baffled me. What is a "hate crime"? When you commit murder is it ever out of "love", making it a "love crime"? It's a stupid definition; every murder is a "hate" crime.

[TVC15]

PD, as usual, you are a dumbass.  Hate crimes are called hate crimes because irrational hate is the motive, not monetary gain or anything of the like.

[Bloodwake]

Okay FoC, here we go. Here's a perfect example:

Throwing shit at people because they did something to you or because you are crazy or they fucked your wife or something to that nature - regular crime.

Throwing shit at homosexuals because they practice homosexuality while yelling fegs GO TO HELL JESUS FUCKING HATES YOU YOU FUCKING QUEER at the top of your lungs - that's a hate crime.

[Bloodwake]

PD, as usual, you are a dumbass.  Hate crimes are called hate crimes because irrational hate is the motive, not monetary gain or anything of the like.

TVC with the better explanation.

[Van Cruncheon]

gee, pd, you useless fuckwit, maybe we should start calling "domestic violence" just "violence", and "grand larceny" "larceny". there's no need to distinguish between the various types of crimes and their motivations, amirite?

[Phoenix Dark]

PD, as usual, you are a dumbass.  Hate crimes are called hate crimes because irrational hate is the motive, not monetary gain or anything of the like.

The term is just stupid as "pro-life/pro-choice". Irrational hate is the motivation of many crimes that have nothing to do with race, sex, religion, or orientation. Are they "hate crimes" also?

[MrAngryFace]

Im getting close to banning PD just for trying so hard to be a dumbass.

[TVC15]

PD, as usual, you are a dumbass.  Hate crimes are called hate crimes because irrational hate is the motive, not monetary gain or anything of the like.

The term is just stupid as "pro-life/pro-choice". Irrational hate is the motivation of many crimes that have nothing to do with race, sex, religion, or orientation. Are they "hate crimes" also?

I don't particularly think hate crime legislation is a good idea, but if it's going to exist, it should at least cover all minority and subordinate groups, not just the ones Jesus says are okay.

I see nothing wrong with calling some crimes hate crimes.  It's a fair descriptor.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Okay FoC, here we go. Here's a perfect example:

Throwing shit at people because they did something to you or because you are crazy or they fucked your wife or something to that nature - regular crime.

Throwing shit at homosexuals because they practice homosexuality while yelling fegs GO TO HELL JESUS FUCKING HATES YOU YOU FUCKING QUEER at the top of your lungs - that's a hate crime.

I understand the difference you dumb fuck, but why should there even be a difference in the crime. The same damn thing happened.

[Saint Cornelius]

Im getting close to banning PD just for trying so hard to be a dumbass.

Are you a mod or what, dude?

Also, "hate crimes" is seriously bullshit. Sorry. Crime is crime.

[FlameOfCallandor]

I see nothing wrong with calling some crimes hate crimes.  It's a fair descriptor.

It is a fair description but not within the legal system.

[TVC15]

I see nothing wrong with calling some crimes hate crimes.  It's a fair descriptor.

It is a fair description but not within the legal system.

Look at my post before yours - I don't like hate crime legislature either, but it's not going to go away.

[Van Cruncheon]

i'm sorry, are film students now legal scholars? my bad! i'd forgotten that the Waychel P. Fivehead Act of 2005 made all internet misfits into lawyers.

[Van Cruncheon]

Im getting close to banning PD just for trying so hard to be a dumbass.

Are you a mod or what, dude?

Also, "hate crimes" is seriously bullshit. Sorry. Crime is crime.

and a hate crime is still a crime. it's a subclass of crime. hermeneutics, people -- it's why we invented modifiers!

[Phoenix Dark]

PD, as usual, you are a dumbass.  Hate crimes are called hate crimes because irrational hate is the motive, not monetary gain or anything of the like.

The term is just stupid as "pro-life/pro-choice". Irrational hate is the motivation of many crimes that have nothing to do with race, sex, religion, or orientation. Are they "hate crimes" also?

I don't particularly think hate crime legislation is a good idea, but if it's going to exist, it should at least cover all minority and subordinate groups, not just the ones Jesus says are okay.

Dobson doesn't speak for Jesus.

Second off, I agree with you. I don't support hate crime legislation, but if it must exist I would like to see it cover all groups. Dobson's statement is puzzling - it seems to me like he's suggesting Christians have the right to "express themselves" against homosexuals or whatever...but what does that have to do with hate crimes? Is he suggesting it's not a hate crime when a Christian kills a gay person?

[TVC15]

Im getting close to banning PD just for trying so hard to be a dumbass.

Are you a mod or what, dude?

Also, "hate crimes" is seriously bullshit. Sorry. Crime is crime.

and a hate crime is still a crime. it's a subclass of crime. hermeneutics, people -- it's why we invented modifiers!

Some of these people here are so daft that I doubt they'd be understand the hierarchal menus of an iPod.

[Smooth Groove]

The mere idea "hate crimes" has always baffled me. What is a "hate crime"? When you commit murder is it ever out of "love", making it a "love crime"? It's a stupid definition; every murder is a "hate" crime.

You seriously think there's no difference between throwing a stone at a black student coming into a predominately white college versus a drunk throwing a stone at another person? 

[Saint Cornelius]

and a hate crime is still a crime. it's a subclass of crime. hermeneutics, people -- it's why we invented modifiers!

you get punished more for a "hate crime" than a regular "crime". that might have good intentions behind it but it's still a really slippery slope.

TVC15: i've mastered the art of maneuvering around my iPod, thanks.

[Van Cruncheon]

do you not support domestic violence legislation, pd, on account of the fact that violent crimes can occur in someone's home and not be considered DV?

you smarmy contrarian shitheels are quibbling over semantics. hate crimes, as TVC said, are a simple term for all crimes where the primary motivating factor is irrational hatred based on group -- rather than individual -- characteristics. sorry if the word "hate" is a little too general for y'all, but sometimes simpler makes a more effective point. they are punished more severely because they have social repurcussions beyond those immediately affected by the crime.

[MrAngryFace]

Saint C: Im whatever I wanna be. Deal with it chum.

[TVC15]

The mere idea "hate crimes" has always baffled me. What is a "hate crime"? When you commit murder is it ever out of "love", making it a "love crime"? It's a stupid definition; every murder is a "hate" crime.

You seriously think there's no difference between throwing a stone at a black student coming into a predominately white college versus a drunk throwing a stone at another person? 

Exactly.  I'd say one of the key things that differentiates hate crimes from "normal" crimes is that a hate crime doesn't only affect the victim, but the whole minority/subordinate group community.  If a Neo-Nazi stomps a black dude, it affects both the victim and a community.  If someone gets beaten up as a result of, say, adultery, or drunkenness, it only affects the one victim.

Corny, I love you I would never call you dumb.

[Flannel Boy]

gee, pd, you useless fuckwit, maybe we should start calling "domestic violence" just "violence", and "grand larceny" "larceny". there's no need to distinguish between the various types of crimes and their motivations, amirite?

Does motivation distinguish larceny from grand larceny or the amount of property stolen? And isn't domestic violence distinguished by the relationship of the victim and criminal from other forms of violence and not the motivation of the crime?

Some of these people here are so daft that I doubt they'd be understand the hierarchal menus of an iPod.

Hate crimes don't simply add descriptive power, but generally add prison time to similar offenses carried out for different motivations. Intent to harm seems more important to me than the particular motive behind the intent.

[MrAngryFace]

I see nothing wrong with calling some crimes hate crimes.  It's a fair descriptor.

It is a fair description but not within the legal system.

Look at my post before yours - I don't like hate crime legislature either, but it's not going to go away.

I think people are ignoring what TVC and I have both said. No matter what you think of Hate Crimes, they arent going away. Why not make it so it is as fair as it can be while its here.

[TVC15]

gee, pd, you useless fuckwit, maybe we should start calling "domestic violence" just "violence", and "grand larceny" "larceny". there's no need to distinguish between the various types of crimes and their motivations, amirite?

Does motivation distinguish larceny from grand larceny or the amount of property stolen? And isn't domestic violence distinguished by the relationship of the victim and criminal from other forms of violence and not the motivation of the crime?

Some of these people here are so daft that I doubt they'd be understand the hierarchal menus of an iPod.

Hate crimes don't simply add descriptive power, but generally add prison time to similar offenses carried out for different motivations. Intent to harm seems more important to me than the particular motive behind the intent.

Once again, Malek, I don't agree with hate crime legislation.

[Saint Cornelius]

Saint C: Im whatever I wanna be. Deal with it chum.

I'm just asking for a little transparency. You sound like a mod at Fark.

[MrAngryFace]

This entire thread was derailed by the first stupid post by FoC.

Hate Crime: Not going anywhere.
Additional Legislation: Makes Hate Crime more fair for EVERYONE.

[Beezy]

The mere idea "hate crimes" has always baffled me. What is a "hate crime"? When you commit murder is it ever out of "love", making it a "love crime"? It's a stupid definition; every murder is a "hate" crime.

You seriously think there's no difference between throwing a stone at a black student coming into a predominately white college versus a drunk throwing a stone at another person? 

Thank you.

[Madrun Badrun]

American government makes no sense to me.  Why do all legs of power have the right to change bills as they please just to have the next leg veto it. 

[Phoenix Dark]

gee, pd, you useless fuckwit, maybe we should start calling "domestic violence" just "violence", and "grand larceny" "larceny". there's no need to distinguish between the various types of crimes and their motivations, amirite?

Does motivation distinguish larceny from grand larceny or the amount of property stolen? And isn't domestic violence distinguished by the relationship of the victim and criminal from other forms of violence and not the motivation of the crime?

Some of these people here are so daft that I doubt they'd be understand the hierarchal menus of an iPod.

Hate crimes don't simply add descriptive power, but generally add prison time to similar offenses carried out for different motivations. Intent to harm seems more important to me than the particular motive behind the intent.

Exactly. Legally it doesn't make much sense to me.

[MrAngryFace]

Saint C: Im whatever I wanna be. Deal with it chum.

I'm just asking for a little transparency. You sound like a mod at Fark.

And you get worked up over nothing.

[Smooth Groove]

Exactly.  I'd say one of the key things that differentiates hate crimes from "normal" crimes is that a hate crime doesn't only affect the victim, but the whole minority/subordinate group community.  If a Neo-Nazi stomps a black dude, it affects both the victim and a community.  If someone gets beaten up as a result of, say, adultery, or drunkenness, it only affects the one victim.

Corny, I love you I would never call you dumb.

True.  One burglary is unlikely to inspire many other burglaries (unless it was pulled off ingeniously.)  However, someone beating up a Muslim post 9/11 will likely cause many others to follow suit.  It is the nature of hate crimes.  A wise man once said fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. 

[TVC15]

Exactly.  I'd say one of the key things that differentiates hate crimes from "normal" crimes is that a hate crime doesn't only affect the victim, but the whole minority/subordinate group community.  If a Neo-Nazi stomps a black dude, it affects both the victim and a community.  If someone gets beaten up as a result of, say, adultery, or drunkenness, it only affects the one victim.

Corny, I love you I would never call you dumb.

A wise man once said fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. 

Actually it was a wise muppet.

[MrAngryFace]

Father_Mike: A veto can be veto-ed, it just isnt happening cause Publicans dont wanna be WRONG by voting against the dork they put in the oval office.

[Smooth Groove]

Exactly. Legally it doesn't make much sense to me.

Why not?  Motivation and intent are as big a part of the legal system as the criminal acts that are committed. 

[Phoenix Dark]

The mere idea "hate crimes" has always baffled me. What is a "hate crime"? When you commit murder is it ever out of "love", making it a "love crime"? It's a stupid definition; every murder is a "hate" crime.

You seriously think there's no difference between throwing a stone at a black student coming into a predominately white college versus a drunk throwing a stone at another person? 

Exactly.  I'd say one of the key things that differentiates hate crimes from "normal" crimes is that a hate crime doesn't only affect the victim, but the whole minority/subordinate group community.  If a Neo-Nazi stomps a black dude, it affects both the victim and a community.  If someone gets beaten up as a result of, say, adultery, or drunkenness, it only affects the one victim.

Corny, I love you I would never call you dumb.

First off, that's a horrible analogy. Violence effects the entire community, period. It makes everyone feel less safe. Yes a Neo Nazi attacking a black person would make a black community feel less safe and threatened, but that brings up a slippery slope (which is what "hate crimes" are).

[Van Cruncheon]

Does motivation distinguish larceny from grand larceny or the amount of property stolen? And isn't domestic violence distinguished by the relationship of the victim and criminal from other forms of violence and not the motivation of the crime?

Hate crimes don't simply add descriptive power, but generally add prison time to similar offenses carried out for different motivations. Intent to harm seems more important to me than the particular motive behind the intent.

motive is an additive property to the punishment for intent, not an alternate. you can be tried for intent in this country, anyway.

[Smooth Groove]

First off, that's a horrible analogy. Violence effects the entire community, period. It makes everyone feel less safe. Yes a Neo Nazi attacking a black person would make a black community feel less safe and threatened, but that brings up a slippery slope (which is what "hate crimes" are).

A hate crime is likely to cause more hate crimes against the same targeted group.  A random act of violence wouldn't have the same effect. 

[TVC15]

The mere idea "hate crimes" has always baffled me. What is a "hate crime"? When you commit murder is it ever out of "love", making it a "love crime"? It's a stupid definition; every murder is a "hate" crime.

You seriously think there's no difference between throwing a stone at a black student coming into a predominately white college versus a drunk throwing a stone at another person? 

Exactly.  I'd say one of the key things that differentiates hate crimes from "normal" crimes is that a hate crime doesn't only affect the victim, but the whole minority/subordinate group community.  If a Neo-Nazi stomps a black dude, it affects both the victim and a community.  If someone gets beaten up as a result of, say, adultery, or drunkenness, it only affects the one victim.

Corny, I love you I would never call you dumb.

First off, that's a horrible analogy. Violence effects the entire community, period. It makes everyone feel less safe. Yes a Neo Nazi attacking a black person would make a black community feel less safe and threatened, but that brings up a slippery slope (which is what "hate crimes" are).

My analogy is quite effective.  The slippery slope is why I don't agree with legislation.  While hate crimes are a definite phenomenon,  it's not exaclty possible to say for sure whether a crime is a hate crime or not.  If the proper lawyer is working a case, they can paint a lot of things that aren't hate crimes as hate crimes.  

[Van Cruncheon]

First off, that's a horrible analogy. Violence effects the entire community, period. It makes everyone feel less safe. Yes a Neo Nazi attacking a black person would make a black community feel less safe and threatened, but that brings up a slippery slope (which is what "hate crimes" are).

domestic violence doesn't affect a whole community. drunken brawls don't affect a whole community. jesus fuck, you're a home schooled naiveling from the michigan 'burbs -- and now you're claiming shit doesn't make "legal sense" when you couldn't tell a tort from the baby ruth floating in your parent's quarter-olympic pool?

[Saint Cornelius]

And you get worked up over nothing.

That's the pot calling the kettle noir, isn't it? But anyways.

Thank you.

What if my white ass throws a rock at you simply because I'm an asshole? Nothing at all to do with your color. I should be convicted of a HATE crime as well as for throwing a rock at you?

Or vice versa.

[Flannel Boy]

Yeah hate crimes effect sub-groups as well and not just the direct victims of the crime. However many crimes effect the victim and society as a whole. If a community is victimized by spike in rapes, that doesn't just affect the women who were raped, but all the women in the community as well. So that other people are hurt by hate crimes maybe true, but it is true of other crimes not labeled as hate crimes.

[Van Cruncheon]

you'll be convicted of a hate crime if the prosecution can prove it was racially motivated. otherwise, you'll be charged with a plain' ol' crime.

[Phoenix Dark]

The mere idea "hate crimes" has always baffled me. What is a "hate crime"? When you commit murder is it ever out of "love", making it a "love crime"? It's a stupid definition; every murder is a "hate" crime.

You seriously think there's no difference between throwing a stone at a black student coming into a predominately white college versus a drunk throwing a stone at another person? 

Exactly.  I'd say one of the key things that differentiates hate crimes from "normal" crimes is that a hate crime doesn't only affect the victim, but the whole minority/subordinate group community.  If a Neo-Nazi stomps a black dude, it affects both the victim and a community.  If someone gets beaten up as a result of, say, adultery, or drunkenness, it only affects the one victim.

Corny, I love you I would never call you dumb.

First off, that's a horrible analogy. Violence effects the entire community, period. It makes everyone feel less safe. Yes a Neo Nazi attacking a black person would make a black community feel less safe and threatened, but that brings up a slippery slope (which is what "hate crimes" are).

My analogy is quite effective.  The slippery slope is why I don't agree with legislation.  While hate crimes are a definite phenomenon,  it's not exaclty possible to say for sure whether a crime is a hate crime or not.  If the proper lawyer is working a case, they can paint a lot of things that aren't hate crimes as hate crimes. 

And there's the problem. An inproper lawyer could easily convince a jury that a particular crime is a hate crime (when it isn't) and automatically get a harsher sentence. That's not fair. There are so many cases where the line between crime and hate crime become blurred, leading to unjust sentences. Even the Matthew Shepard case isn't as clear cut as it has been presented - there is evidence that suggests he was killed over drug related issues, not homophobia.

[TVC15]

Yeah hate crimes effect sub-groups as well and not just the direct victims of the crime. However many crimes effect the victim and society as a whole. If a community is victimized by spike in rapes, that doesn't just affect the women who were raped, but all the women in the community as well. So that other people are hurt by hate crimes maybe true, but it is true of other crimes not labeled as hate crimes.

Well, then the effect isn't limited to hate crimes. That doesn't mean it's not symptomatic of hate crimes.

[Flannel Boy]

A hate crime is likely to cause more hate crimes against the same targeted group.  A random act of violence wouldn't have the same effect. 

You'd have to prove this causal relationship to me. I think that is only the case if the state does not prosecute against the crimes and the community either supports the crimes and or turns a blind eye.

[TVC15]

The mere idea "hate crimes" has always baffled me. What is a "hate crime"? When you commit murder is it ever out of "love", making it a "love crime"? It's a stupid definition; every murder is a "hate" crime.

You seriously think there's no difference between throwing a stone at a black student coming into a predominately white college versus a drunk throwing a stone at another person? 

Exactly.  I'd say one of the key things that differentiates hate crimes from "normal" crimes is that a hate crime doesn't only affect the victim, but the whole minority/subordinate group community.  If a Neo-Nazi stomps a black dude, it affects both the victim and a community.  If someone gets beaten up as a result of, say, adultery, or drunkenness, it only affects the one victim.

Corny, I love you I would never call you dumb.

First off, that's a horrible analogy. Violence effects the entire community, period. It makes everyone feel less safe. Yes a Neo Nazi attacking a black person would make a black community feel less safe and threatened, but that brings up a slippery slope (which is what "hate crimes" are).

My analogy is quite effective.  The slippery slope is why I don't agree with legislation.  While hate crimes are a definite phenomenon,  it's not exaclty possible to say for sure whether a crime is a hate crime or not.  If the proper lawyer is working a case, they can paint a lot of things that aren't hate crimes as hate crimes. 

And there's the problem. An inproper lawyer could easily convince a jury that a particular crime is a hate crime (when it isn't) and automatically get a harsher sentence. That's not fair. There are so many cases where the line between crime and hate crime become blurred, leading to unjust sentences. Even the Matthew Shepard case isn't as clear cut as it has been presented - there is evidence that suggests he was killed over drug related issues, not homophobia.

For the eighth time, I DO NOT AGREE WITH HATE CRIME LEGISLATION.  However, the hate crime laws on the books will never ever ever be repealed, so the best we can do is make sure they are at least internally consistent and at least make an attempt at being fair in regarding all minorities and subordinate groups equally.

[Beezy]

Thank you.

What if my white ass throws a rock at you simply because I'm an asshole? Nothing at all to do with your color. I should be convicted of a HATE crime as well as for throwing a rock at you?

Or vice versa.

Then it's not a hate crime.

[Saint Cornelius]

you'll be convicted of a hate crime if the prosecution can prove it was racially motivated. otherwise, you'll be charged with a plain' ol' crime.

so you can't imagine a jury saying it WAS racially motivated? i'm leaning more on the "i can't prove it WASN'T a hate crime"

here's a good one for you: I go to a bar. I get drunk. Some guy fucks with me, we get into a fight outside. In the frenzy of punches being thrown, I call him a taco. Turns out he IS gay, and now I'm being charged with a hate crime!

for example, "oh you fucking taco, you broke my nose!"

[Saint Cornelius]

Then it's not a hate crime.

But how would I PROVE that?

[Phoenix Dark]

The mere idea "hate crimes" has always baffled me. What is a "hate crime"? When you commit murder is it ever out of "love", making it a "love crime"? It's a stupid definition; every murder is a "hate" crime.

You seriously think there's no difference between throwing a stone at a black student coming into a predominately white college versus a drunk throwing a stone at another person? 

Exactly.  I'd say one of the key things that differentiates hate crimes from "normal" crimes is that a hate crime doesn't only affect the victim, but the whole minority/subordinate group community.  If a Neo-Nazi stomps a black dude, it affects both the victim and a community.  If someone gets beaten up as a result of, say, adultery, or drunkenness, it only affects the one victim.

Corny, I love you I would never call you dumb.

First off, that's a horrible analogy. Violence effects the entire community, period. It makes everyone feel less safe. Yes a Neo Nazi attacking a black person would make a black community feel less safe and threatened, but that brings up a slippery slope (which is what "hate crimes" are).

My analogy is quite effective.  The slippery slope is why I don't agree with legislation.  While hate crimes are a definite phenomenon,  it's not exaclty possible to say for sure whether a crime is a hate crime or not.  If the proper lawyer is working a case, they can paint a lot of things that aren't hate crimes as hate crimes. 

And there's the problem. An inproper lawyer could easily convince a jury that a particular crime is a hate crime (when it isn't) and automatically get a harsher sentence. That's not fair. There are so many cases where the line between crime and hate crime become blurred, leading to unjust sentences. Even the Matthew Shepard case isn't as clear cut as it has been presented - there is evidence that suggests he was killed over drug related issues, not homophobia.

For the eighth time, I DO NOT AGREE WITH HATE CRIME LEGISLATION.  However, the hate crime laws on the books will never ever ever be repealed, so the best we can do is make sure they are at least internally consistent and at least make an attempt at being fair in regarding all minorities and subordinate groups equally.

And for the second time, I AGREE WITH YOU. You're right they'll never be repealed, and it's best to cover everyone. I'm fine with that

[Smooth Groove]

Then it's not a hate crime.

But how would I PROVE that?

It would depend on the circumstances and the individuals involved.  For example, if you belonged in a white supremacist group, it would obviously work against you even if you claim that it wasn't a hate crime. 

[Beezy]

you'll be convicted of a hate crime if the prosecution can prove it was racially motivated. otherwise, you'll be charged with a plain' ol' crime.

so you can't imagine a jury saying it WAS racially motivated? i'm leaning more on the "i can't prove it WASN'T a hate crime"

here's a good one for you: I go to a bar. I get drunk. Some guy fucks with me, we get into a fight outside. In the frenzy of punches being thrown, I call him a taco. Turns out he IS gay, and now I'm being charged with a hate crime!

for example, "oh you fucking taco, you broke my nose!"

But the fight wasn't started by you calling him a taco. You didn't attack him simply because you hate gay people.