Author Topic: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep  (Read 1997 times)

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Mondain

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RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« on: September 05, 2006, 08:38:08 PM »
Who takes the time to read manuals anymore nowadays? Who pays meticulous attention to the endless in-game tutorials intricately explaining the ways of the leveling, combat, skills, magic, etc etc... systems?

We just want to hop in and have fun, and the worst thing to ruin that is, worrying about having potentially missed some critical detail in a console RPG's menu, that later on hinders our progression and overall enjoyment of the product.

Enchanted Arms which I currently play, constantly has to pause in order to let the various characters assist the hero and explain the particularities of the possible actions in the environment, and the various possibilities of the menu system.

Sure, deep menu tactics are meant to give replay value to the titles, but there's a reason why two of the original games in this now crowded genre, Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, are still the most popular and notorious ones in the world. The competition has to differentiate itself from these two franchises with particular battle styles, upgrades, weapons... but in the end it's just cumbersome.

This generation Dragon Quest VIII and Final Fantasy X were the two most successful RPGs, and they managed to keep their simplicity too. These are the sole two ones I could see myself playing again... and then again probably not, games just get too complicated nowadays, and now we have a truckload of RPGs everywhere available for cheap, who'll really replay the old ones in his collection, when it's much more preferable to experiment a new adventure after another? And the biggest hurdle to that is what I described above.

MrAngryFace

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2006, 08:56:10 PM »
Dragon Quarter and the Grandia battlesystems say hi.

And PLEASE dont judge based off of one of the most mediocre RPGs out there  (enchanted arms), thats just not fair to the genre.

Just because you dont have the attention span to appreciate tactics doesnt mean its bad.

Im sure there's gonna be a reply where you say something back and I ignore all of it except the last sentence which I will quote out of context. HAVE AT YOU!
o_0

Mondain

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2006, 09:18:23 PM »
Dragon Quarter and the Grandia battlesystems say hi.

And PLEASE dont judge based off of one of the most mediocre RPGs out there  (enchanted arms), thats just not fair to the genre.

Just because you dont have the attention span to appreciate tactics doesnt mean its bad.

Im sure there's gonna be a reply where you say something back and I ignore all of it except the last sentence which I will quote out of context. HAVE AT YOU!

Well, I have Dragon Quarter but didn't play it yet, though I read in depth that it's a cult game... so it'll be a nice occasion to check it out.

And of course, that thread wasn't meant to judge the whole genre based on Enchanted Arms, simply to illustrate a trend I've noticed in most every recent console RPG that I played, with a brand new RPG that people presently play and thus can easily relate to.

And lastly, it isn't about lacking the attention span to appreciate tactics, my patience and perceptivity are pretty great. It's that ultimately, there's a lot of mediocre products out there, so for most rides it's not worth it to enter overdrive mode. Having to waste time and drain your patience in cumbersome control, points and menu systems is really a big obstacle to the pure enjoyment of the fables contained in RPGs, and ultimately these fairytales are arguably (I believe) the reason people consume so much of the genre.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 09:19:57 PM by Mondain »

MrAngryFace

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2006, 09:29:52 PM »
Well unfortunately not all efforts to make a 'deep' battle system actually end up producing something fun. Additionally I think some of the responsibility lies with the gamer who buys the RPG.

RPGs have two things, story, and gameplay. A good RPG needs BOTH. Xenosaga may have a decent story, but its battlesystem isn't really that hot. Grandia III has a fantastic battlesystem but the story is pretty generic. I think Dragon Quarter was a big exception to that rule. While the story wont blow your mind, it is exactly as it needs to be.
o_0

demi

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2006, 09:52:35 PM »
GOD I HOPE MY COPY COMES IN WTF I WANT TO PLAY ITTTTTTTTTTTTTT
fat

Mondain

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2006, 10:08:42 PM »
it's pretty to look at

most of all, it makes me long for the future next-gen RPGs in 720p

it's going to be such an awesome spectacle  :o

however, as it illustrates, developpers should really consider using bigger/clearer fonts for HD RPGs... it's easier to lack crucial details in menus and slightly harder to read long dialogues than with old PS2 RPGs in 480i, and PSOne RPGs in 320x240 non-interlaced

it's an hassle to replay old SNES stuff... it's such a low-resolution that, on a big screen it's not convenient to browse through the thousands of dialogue bubbles made out of gigantic pixelated fonts that steal 50% of the available screen space, since now we're used to PS2's resolution


« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 10:23:53 PM by Mondain »

demi

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2006, 10:58:13 PM »
ok now you dont know what you're going on about
fat

Mondain

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2006, 11:21:45 PM »
what, how so

if you played Dead Rising, you'll sure know that there's a problem with fonting and high-resolution games, and even moreso when these are played on SDTVs... it's still pretty small for HDTVs

compare this to old SNES RPGs for fun... sure it's comfortable to have so much menu detail on a full-fledged 720p screen, but there're limits

a game like Enchanted Arms should be more convenient to read... fortunately Oblivion got that right, though it's probably simply because it's a port of a PC RPG, a platform where games aren't optimized for 640x480 resolutions like console RPGs are this gen
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 11:26:51 PM by Mondain »

Van Cruncheon

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2006, 11:37:53 PM »
the deeper and more complex the battle system, the better. i wanna be OVERWHELMED with numbers and rules and systems
duc

MrAngryFace

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2006, 11:40:38 PM »
STATS
o_0

demi

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2006, 03:00:54 PM »
enchanted arms is fucking awesome, already like this game so far
fat

MrAngryFace

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2006, 03:49:21 PM »
Lots of people do, which is surprising. Wish cowboy loli girl wasnt in it tho :(
o_0

demi

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2006, 04:33:19 PM »
I have a giant gingerbread pizzaman Golem fighting with me, that's awesome

PIZZA PIZZA
fat

MrAngryFace

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2006, 04:34:07 PM »
I might borrow it from someone, I hear you can not use loli girl most of the time, cept she'll be in cutscenes
o_0

demi

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2006, 04:37:01 PM »
she probably joins your team later in the game, she only appears in cutscenes at the beginning
fat

Mondain

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2006, 07:02:16 PM »
why are you guys making a big deal about her, she's easy to ignore lol

what's harder to ignore is the goddamn screen tearing... fortunately it's not too bad, but it's pretty obnoxious and ugly... nothing compared to something like Perfect Dark Zero or Saints Row, still... take more time to program them filthy games and fix your 59$ software before they're done you grunts

also, in the battle sequences, the framerate for all character animations is slooooooooow... they're animated at like 10 FPS with interpolation
« Last Edit: September 06, 2006, 07:08:07 PM by Mondain »

etiolate

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2006, 12:57:11 AM »
Nothing much wrong with being extra deep, it is a matter of being needlessly complex.  PC gaming has this problem. "It's got depth!" No, its got 20 extra menus that it doesn't need and a lack of unifying concept. Simplicity can be exhibit great gameplay depth. It shifts upon the gameplay give/take, not on being buried in numbers.

G The Resurrected

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Re: RPG combat systems are unnecessarily deep
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2006, 07:15:59 AM »
I really hate complicated systems i like it to be simple yet intuitive. And so far i'm getting all of that from Enchanted Arms its freaking great. Simple yet fun as hell.