Michigan sucks donkey ass

[brawndolicious]

Geography
10 points - Michigan resident
6 points - Underrepresented Michigan county
2 points - Underrepresented state

Alumni
4 points - "Legacy" (parents, step-parents)
1 point - Other (grandparents, siblings, spouses)

S.A.T.
12 points-Perfect score

Essay
1 point - Outstanding essay (since 1999, 3 points)

Personal achievement
1 point - State
3 points - Regional
5 points - National

Leadership and service
1 point - State
3 points - Regional
5 points - National

Miscellaneous
20 points - Socio-economic disadvantage
20 points - Underrepresented racial-ethnic minority identification or education
5 points - Men in nursing
20 points - Scholarship athlete
20 points - Provost's discretion


Maximum of 40 points and only one option is assigned in the alumni, personal achievement, leadership & service, and miscellaneous categories.

[Phoenix Dark]

The SAT is not required for admission to Michigan schools lol.

[Flannel Boy]

"Underrepresented Michigan county" Is this another way to do AA?

[brawndolicious]

SAT also means ACT.

[Cheebs]

Of the states I lived in:

1. Ohio
2. Georgia
3. Texas
4. Michigan

[brawndolicious]

and you're going to university in michigan.

[Cheebs]

and you're going to university in michigan.

cause I live there!

[brawndolicious]

yeah but they're still way too messed up.  we found out about this in government when we were going over controversial supreme court cases.

[Phoenix Dark]

UM is one of the best schools in the country actually

[brawndolicious]

well there's schools that don't use that much affirmative action and are better than it.

[Phoenix Dark]

Michigan doesn't use affirmative action anymore. The SC struck it down, although people are working to get it re-instated.

Basically the points system almost gave people as much points for being black as it did for being the child of alumni.

[brawndolicious]

Basically the points system almost gave people as much points for being black as it did for being the child of alumni.

No, read the first post.

It's still there but it doesn't have quite as much power, I heard they just raised the score of the SAT.

[Cheebs]

Well AA is perfectly ok with me.

[Phoenix Dark]

Basically the points system almost gave people as much points for being black as it did for being the child of alumni.

No, read the first post.

It's still there but it doesn't have quite as much power, I heard they just raised the score of the SAT.

lol I remember being told I could get 13 because my dad graduated from their school of dentistry and is a donor today

[brawndolicious]

yeah admissions standards have way too much bs, didn't know that this specific fact was one of the biggest categories anywhere though.

[Phoenix Dark]

I don't like that. Now I understand there are groups that have been treated unfairly in the past, but to me that doesn't justify sanctioning the unfair treatment of even more people just to get these "protected groups " into college. If you have a 3.9, guess what? You deserve to go to a high ranking university, no matter what your color is. If you have a 3.1 and you're in this protected group, do you honestly "deserve" to go to a high ranking university? Come on

am nintenho you seem like you're smart (in school at least lol), and I'm guessing you're going through the admissions stuff right now?

[Flannel Boy]

Wait PD, I thought you were in favor of AA?

[Cheebs]

Wait PD, I thought you were in favor of AA?

he is the only black man in michigan to vote against it last fall.

[Flannel Boy]

Wait PD, I thought you were in favor of AA?

he is the only black man in michigan to vote against it last fall.

It would be cool that he can get beyond identity politics, but I recall that he was in favor of AA.

[Phoenix Dark]

Wait PD, I thought you were in favor of AA?

I'm conflicted on it. On one hand I feel that certain aspects of AA merely serve to level the playing field so to speak, and I'm perfectly fine with that. But when it comes to giving people stuff they don't deserve, I can't support that.

[Flannel Boy]

Wait PD, I thought you were in favor of AA?

I'm conflicted on it. On one hand I feel that certain aspects of AA merely serve to level the playing field so to speak, and I'm perfectly fine with that. But when it comes to giving people stuff they don't deserve, I can't support that.

There's no such thing as a level playing field. And AA based on race sure doesn't make the field any more level.

[Phoenix Dark]

Wait PD, I thought you were in favor of AA?

I'm conflicted on it. On one hand I feel that certain aspects of AA merely serve to level the playing field so to speak, and I'm perfectly fine with that. But when it comes to giving people stuff they don't deserve, I can't support that.

There's no such thing as a level playing field. And AA based on race sure doesn't make the field any more level.

I tend to think that at times. It seems to me that stuff like that shouldn't be legislated...but I still feel the need to support it somehow because I'm black. It's conflicting, as I said.

I'd rather see AA based on class and economic wealth, at least with respect to getting into colleges.

[Flannel Boy]

Wait PD, I thought you were in favor of AA?

I'm conflicted on it. On one hand I feel that certain aspects of AA merely serve to level the playing field so to speak, and I'm perfectly fine with that. But when it comes to giving people stuff they don't deserve, I can't support that.

There's no such thing as a level playing field. And AA based on race sure doesn't make the field any more level.

I tend to think that at times. It seems to me that stuff like that shouldn't be legislated...but I still feel the need to support it somehow because I'm black. It's conflicting, as I said.

I'd rather see AA based on class and economic wealth, at least with respect to getting into colleges.

That would be more palatable, and more fair since all individuals from poor backgrounds would be helped, and not just those of a particular race. However, in the end, I think universities belong to those of merit and talent. Income should come into play for securing loans, grants, bursaries, etc., but not admissions.

[Phoenix Dark]

Wait PD, I thought you were in favor of AA?

I'm conflicted on it. On one hand I feel that certain aspects of AA merely serve to level the playing field so to speak, and I'm perfectly fine with that. But when it comes to giving people stuff they don't deserve, I can't support that.

There's no such thing as a level playing field. And AA based on race sure doesn't make the field any more level.

I tend to think that at times. It seems to me that stuff like that shouldn't be legislated...but I still feel the need to support it somehow because I'm black. It's conflicting, as I said.

I'd rather see AA based on class and economic wealth, at least with respect to getting into colleges.

That would be more palatable, and more fair since all individuals from poor backgrounds would be helped, and not just those of a particular race. However, in the end, I think universities belong to those of merit and talent. Income should come into play for securing loans, grants, bursaries, etc., but not admissions.

True. They're gonna call me an Uncle Tom

[Flannel Boy]

Wait PD, I thought you were in favor of AA?

I'm conflicted on it. On one hand I feel that certain aspects of AA merely serve to level the playing field so to speak, and I'm perfectly fine with that. But when it comes to giving people stuff they don't deserve, I can't support that.

There's no such thing as a level playing field. And AA based on race sure doesn't make the field any more level.

I tend to think that at times. It seems to me that stuff like that shouldn't be legislated...but I still feel the need to support it somehow because I'm black. It's conflicting, as I said.

I'd rather see AA based on class and economic wealth, at least with respect to getting into colleges.

That would be more palatable, and more fair since all individuals from poor backgrounds would be helped, and not just those of a particular race. However, in the end, I think universities belong to those of merit and talent. Income should come into play for securing loans, grants, bursaries, etc., but not admissions.

True. They're gonna call me an Uncle Tom

Like they haven't already.

[Phoenix Dark]

 

Well I'm not conservative at all, but I love blaming the victim. I got many cases from initially in law class simply for my "lol that dumbass doesn't deserve any money!" attitude

[Flannel Boy]

Go ahead and bring up law class.  :'(

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Still waiting on Queen's

[close]

[Phoenix Dark]

Wound up getting an A in mine lol

[Flannel Boy]

Wound up getting an A in mine lol

I got a A+ in criminology. Want to go? 

[brawndolicious]

AA works if not applied to school application because the people being admitted know they don't have to fall back on relying on the past.  If it's for jobs, than your actually testing how much somebody can thrive with the opportunity.  School doesn't do that, it just evens the playing field.  Surveys have shown that AA applicants for jobs have a higher pre-disposition to contribute to society.

I found this out in government today when we went over major supreme court cases.  Applications were back in November.

[Phoenix Dark]

Wound up getting an A in mine lol

I got a A+ in criminology. Want to go? 

Criminology? I took it for a couple days and it sounded easy as shit, even more so than sociology. Luckily I dropped the class once it was clear I got into EMU

[Flannel Boy]

Surveys have shown that AA applicants for jobs have a higher pre-disposition to contribute to society.

Any studies on outcomes and job performance? Because 'predisposition to contribute to society' sounds like unquantifiable flaky grade A bullcrap.   

[brawndolicious]

Any studies on outcomes and job performance? Because 'predisposition to contribute to society' sounds like unquantifiable flaky grade A bullcrap.   

I can't find any but the point is that Affirmative Action could work for jobs but is total bs for school.

[Phoenix Dark]

Surveys have shown that AA applicants for jobs have a higher pre-disposition to contribute to society.

Any studies on outcomes and job performance? Because 'predisposition to contribute to society' sounds like unquantifiable flaky grade A bullcrap.   

Yeah. That doesn't seem to justify giving jobs to less qualified individuals. You get hired for your experience and ability to do the job, not your potential to do good things for society. This ain't Spider-Man

[brawndolicious]

It's supposed to be for when your race prevents you from getting a job.

[Flannel Boy]

It's supposed to be for when your race prevents you from getting a job.

No it is not. That's what anti-discrimination laws are for.

[brawndolicious]

Can't really control it.

[Phoenix Dark]

Can't really control it.

Actually they can lol. Those laws are pretty hefty, especially now. In 1970 yeah I can understand the argument, but not today. Sure the "old boys network" thing is still going on, but even that's not "prejudice"

[Flannel Boy]

Can't really control it.

Yeah, but AA laws are not there to protect people who don't get jobs because of their race. That was the initial purpose when JFK introduced it, however since then AA has shifted towards preferential treatment for members of groups who have suffered historical disadvantages. So an individual need not necessarily experience actual discrimination in order to be benefited by such a program. 

[brawndolicious]

AA that only gets the person a job, not a higher pay/benefits after they got the job (which is entirely about "paying back for the past"), works because it's about testing to see if the person can do the job well.  That isn't a bad idea.  If you ever take AA beyond giving a person a job to giving them a college diploma or better benefits at their job, it doesn't work in my opinion.

[Flannel Boy]

Yes, but people compete for a limited number of jobs. That x should get a job, because x shares traits with group y, over a similarly qualified (or even better qualified)  Z because he does not share traits with group y is unfair. 

[brawndolicious]

You have to assume that this is only used for a field. where ALL jobs in an area are limited from a certain race.

[Flannel Boy]

You have to assume that this is only used for a field. where ALL jobs in an area are limited from a certain race.

Why does this assumption have to be made?

[brawndolicious]

Why does this assumption have to be made?

I'm saying that the law should be used in areas where there is heavy segregation to the point where it's hard to get a job because of your race.

[Flannel Boy]

Why does this assumption have to be made?

I'm saying that the law should be used in areas where there is heavy segregation to the point where it's hard to get a job because of your race.

Inequality of outcomes is not de facto evidence of discrimination. That most nurses are women, for example, is not evidence that men are being discriminated against and need legislative help from the government. Just because the NFL and NBA are heavily segregated does not mean that non-African Americans are being systematically discriminated against.

[brawndolicious]

Women are more likely to be nurses because there is a cultural stigma against men.  In professional sports, they really don't care about your skin color (note Dirk Nowitzki becoming player of the year).

[Flannel Boy]

Women are more likely to be nurses because there is a cultural stigma against men.  In professional sports, they really don't care about your skin color (note Dirk Nowitzki becoming player of the year).

That was the point I was making. "Inequality of outcomes is not de facto evidence of discrimination."

[brawndolicious]

Right, but you could prove racism with equal application rates.

[Flannel Boy]

Right, but you could prove racism with equal application rates.

No you couldn't. If 60 people try out for a basketball team (half are white and half are black) and the coach selects 11 black guys and 1 white guy, this is no evidence of racial discrimination. 

[brawndolicious]

Genetics or culture could heavily influence what type of sports a person plays.

[Flannel Boy]

Genetics or culture could heavily influence what type of sports a person plays.

And culture or genetics could influence the variation in traits and abilities within a group or sub-groub for all kinds of other jobs.

[brawndolicious]

genetics and culture are the BIGGEST factors that I could imagine influencing somebody's sports skill.  In other fields, it could have a direct impact on skill but nowhere nearly as much as sports.