twin boys can't determine paternity

[xnikki118x]

There's a paternity battle between two brothers, but the DNA tests show both of them as 99% likely to be the baby's father because they're identical twins.

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/test-cant-tell-which-twin-is-father/20070521164509990001

Test Can't Tell Which Twin is Father
By Mary Kathryn Burke
ABC News
(May 27) - Twin brothers Raymon and Richard Miller are the father and uncle to a 3-year-old little girl. The problem is, they don't know which is which. Or who is who.

The identical Missouri twins say they were unknowingly having sex with the same woman. And according to the woman's testimony, she had sex with each man on the same day. Within hours of each other.

When the woman in question, Holly Marie Adams, got pregnant, she named Raymon the father, but he contested and demanded a paternity test, bringing his own brother Richard to court.

But a paternity test in this case could not help. The test showed that both brothers have over a 99.9 percent probability of being the daddy and neither one wants to pay the child support. The result of the test has not only brought to light the limits of DNA evidence, it has also led to a three-year legal battle, a Miller family feud and a little girl who may never know who her real father is.

"'Did you sleep with him [Richard Miller] while in Sikeston for the rodeo?'," Cameron Parker, Richard's lawyer, said she asked Holly Marie Adams in 2003 court testimony, to which she answered "'Yes ma'am.'" "She then said she went to appellant's [Raymon Miller's]home where they had sex later that night or early the next morning," Parker said.

Asked if it is true that he did at one time formally date Adams, Richard Miller told ABC News, "Well, if you call that dating." Raymon confirms that he never dated Adams in any sense, but that they were "messing around."

Courtroom Double Trouble

As soon as Raymon was asked to pay child support, he demanded that he and his brother both take a paternity test. When the paternity test came back with the same results, he took the matter to the courts where Judge Fred Copeland ruled that even in light of the identical DNA tests and overlapping relationships, Raymon would remain the legal father of the child. Raymon hopes to continue appealing the decision.

"I want to go to the Supreme Court ," Raymon told ABC News. "If they can't prove it's me then they should throw it out of court." And as for the child support, he said, "The state should eat it."

Miller contacted ABC News through the Law & Justice unit internet tipline. Copeland, however, notes that as the judge in the case, he does not have to depend solely on DNA evidence and can rule based on the testimony of Adams as well -- who believes she can nail down the date of conception to a night spent with Raymon.

"Look, she had a bunch of girlfriends to the rodeo and they got drunk and she went banging on Raymon's door trying to have sex," Copeland said. "He says he did reluctantly&but I can't imagine it was reluctantly  and that's when the baby was conceived I guess."

As for the mother, Holly Marie Adams just wants the whole battle to be over.

"We've been to court over and over and they always ruled the same way," Adams said. "We are tired. We are done with this."

Family Feud

Richard, while admitting that he had a sexual relationship with Adams, believes that there is no way that he is the father and said that his brother just doesn't want the financial burden of a child.

"Raymon's the one that done everything," Richard told ABC News. "He's the one that brought this to court. It's just him not wanting to pay child support. It's a big mess if you ask me."

The two brothers are not the only ones in an awkward situation. Jean Boyd, the mother of the twins (and the child's grandmother -- they're sure she is the grandmother) has felt caught in the middle. "When this first happened I felt like I had gained a granddaughter but lost my sons," Boyd said. "The boys have been feuding and I can't choose between my kids." While Boyd sees her granddaughter regularly, she said the paternity confusion is what has kept her sons from the child. "Until they know that the daddy is the daddy and the uncle is the uncle, Raymon will never acknowledge the child. And Richard doesn't think it was his either&neither of them will have anything to do with her," Boyd added.

It seems, however, that the Millers and the courts will never know the true father.

"With identical twins, even if you sequenced their whole genome you wouldn't find difference -- they're clones," said Dr. Bob Gaensslen, a forensic scientist at Orchid Cellmark labs in Texas. "There are a few things in science that are cut and dried and this is one of them."

Dr. Bob Giles, a paternity testing expert, agrees. "There is simply no test that explains the difference between two identical twins," he said.

More Like 50/50?

The final appellate court decision, filed this year, ruled that Raymon will remain the legal father. In Missouri, a paternity test must come back with 98 percent or higher probability that DNA matches in order for a man to be named the legal father.

"They say you have to prove with 98 percent certainty that you're the father. But since with my brother it's a 99 percent chance and with me it's a 99 percent chance -- that seems like more of a 50/50. What if there was a rape or murder case with twins? Then they could just go around pointing the finger at the other," Ramon said.

But a paternity suit is very different from a criminal case, noted Lori Andrews, a top genetics lawyer.

"In a criminal case there is a chance that the twin would get off because the DNA cannot pinpoint only one person, but here there is a different issue. The legal standard is lower."

Copeland agrees that the case will not be going any further. "When DNA cannot be definitive you just go back to the same evidence that we used before," Copeland said. As for the nature of the case, Copeland said it is one of the stranger legal situations he's encountered. "When you are on the bench long enough though, you see a lot of strange things," he said.

As for the child support,Gaensslen has his own suggestion as to who should be paying. "Split it down the middle," he told ABC News. "They both played, so they should both pay."

[G The Resurrected]

Jesus now thats fucked up.

[Yeti]

That girl is going to be messed up.

[ToxicAdam]

I wonder if the brothers even talk. That would be weird for twins to hate each other.

[Tauntaun]

I wonder if the brothers even talk. That would be weird for twins to hate each other.

but which one is which?  how can we take sides? 

[Phoenix Dark]

CUT THE BABY IN HALF ONE FOR YOU ONE FOR YOU

[Cyanista]

What a worthless fucking scumbag.  "Raymon" needs to die in a fire.  That little girl would be better off never knowing she'd been spawned by such an asshole.

[DeezNutzRBlue]

Only stupid whores have these probelms

[TVC15]

What a stupid, stupid woman.

[Bloodwake]

LETS SCREW THEM BOTH THEY LOOK JUST ALIKE LOLZ

[Yeti]

I would agree that they should both have to pay and be done with it, but that would be like rewarding the mother for being such a whore.

[Ichirou]

The mommy is a cheap slut. 

[Himu]

How does that make her a whore? Maybe she thought they were the same person? People DO have sex multiple times a day you know.

[Scurvy Stan]

I swear there was an episode of Cheaters like this.

[Ichirou]

How does that make her a whore? Maybe she thought they were the same person? People DO have sex multiple times a day you know.

You'd think if she thought that, they would have, y'know, mentioned it in the story?  Have you ever met identical twins, Himu?  No matter what they tell you on TV, it's very easy to recognize which one is which.

[Fresh Prince]

Neither brother wants the child Michelle.  Solomon's wisdom doesn't really apply here since you would be getting rid of the problem for both of them.  Homeskool fails again.

[aoi tsuki]

And fuck, what a skank, unless it was actually a planned threesome or something.

That was the first thing that came to mind. DP is awkward enough, but when the other guy is your twin brother? That's some Jerry Springer shit.

[whiteACID]

I'm curious, if someone was murdered and they got DNA from the scene but the DNA matches twin brothers is there anything they can do to prosecute them? Say there was no other evidence and the only thing they had was DNA.

[whiteACID]

How does that make her a whore? Maybe she thought they were the same person? People DO have sex multiple times a day you know.

You'd think if she thought that, they would have, y'know, mentioned it in the story?  Have you ever met identical twins, Himu?  No matter what they tell you on TV, it's very easy to recognize which one is which.

Yes, If you know them fairly well.

[Verboten]

I wonder if the brothers even talk. That would be weird for twins to hate each other.

Oh, really?! The brother of light... versus the brother of dark.


I'm you! I'm your shadow!

[Ichirou]

I'm curious, if someone was murdered and they got DNA from the scene but the DNA matches twin brothers is there anything they can do to prosecute them? Say there was no other evidence and the only thing they had was DNA.

It would be impossible to get past reasonable doubt in that case...the perfect crime!

How does that make her a whore? Maybe she thought they were the same person? People DO have sex multiple times a day you know.

You'd think if she thought that, they would have, y'know, mentioned it in the story?  Have you ever met identical twins, Himu?  No matter what they tell you on TV, it's very easy to recognize which one is which.

Yes, If you know them fairly well.

I've taught several pairs of identical twins, and I've never had trouble telling them apart.  Their DNA might be the same, but their personality, the way they carry themselves, their physical appearance (from hairstyle to scars to weight to any number of other small differences that may have occurred as they grew up), it all boils down to them looking like two totally different people.

[DeezNutzRBlue]

How does that make her a whore? Maybe she thought they were the same person? People DO have sex multiple times a day you know.

Isn't that slut/whore by definition?

[Yeti]

The identical Missouri twins say they were unknowingly having sex with the same woman. And according to the woman's testimony, she had sex with each man on the same day.

This quote seems to indicate that the woman knew she was having sex with both brothers, and that the brothers were unaware of each other's involvement. I again conclude that she is a whore.

[Cyanista]

How does that make her a whore? Maybe she thought they were the same person? People DO have sex multiple times a day you know.

Isn't that slut/whore by definition?

A whore by definition is someone who takes money or other payment for sexual acts.  They don't teach English in kentucky anymore?  Tsk tsk.

[DeezNutzRBlue]

How does that make her a whore? Maybe she thought they were the same person? People DO have sex multiple times a day you know.

Isn't that slut/whore by definition?

A whore by definition is someone who takes money or other payment for sexual acts.  They don't teach English in kentucky anymore?  Tsk tsk.

Check your dictionary. Here, I'll help you:
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source whore       (hôr, hōr)  Pronunciation Key 
n.   
A prostitute.
A person considered sexually promiscuous.
A person considered as having compromised principles for personal gain. 

So, yes, I would call that promiscuous.  Lesson concluded.

[Cyanista]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution

Prostitution describes sexual intercourse in exchange for remuneration.

http://www.meriam-webster.com/dictionary/prostitute

1 : to offer indiscriminately for sexual intercourse for money

[DeezNutzRBlue]

Did I ever call her a prostitute?  I said whore.  Though she may have purposely gotten pregnant for the future child support payouts, thus deeming her a prostitute.

[Cyanista]

Ah, but the money would be in renumeration for the child, not the sex, thus not making her a whore.

You really, REALLY don't want to play the semantics game with me.  I'm just giving you a heads up.

[DeezNutzRBlue]

Um, you're wrong and now you are trying to twist it.  Admitting is the first step.  Just because you choose to beleive certain parts of a definintion and disregard the rest doesn't mean you are right. 

I suppose that you think a fluke is something that happens by chance whereas I also accept that it a worm also.

[Error Macro]

Um, you're wrong and now you are trying to twist it.  Admitting is the first step.  Just because you choose to beleive certain parts of a definintion and disregard the rest doesn't mean you are right. 

I suppose that you think a fluke is something that happens by chance whereas I also accept that it a worm also.

Incorrect definitions of words that are misused over time get rolled into the lexicon constantly.  That doesn't necessarily make them correct.

A whore is someone who receives money for a sexual act, I don't care if some dictionary is trying to corrupt that.

[Cyanista]

Especially not the "american heritage' dictionary.



Slang gets adopted into dictionaries as time goes by.  That doesn't make it right.  "Ain't" is in the dictionary, but if you say it seriously I'm going to write you off as a dipshit.

[DeezNutzRBlue]

Um, you're wrong and now you are trying to twist it.  Admitting is the first step.  Just because you choose to beleive certain parts of a definintion and disregard the rest doesn't mean you are right. 

I suppose that you think a fluke is something that happens by chance whereas I also accept that it a worm also.

Incorrect definitions of words that are misused over time get rolled into the lexicon constantly.  That doesn't necessarily make them correct.

A whore is someone who receives money for a sexual act, I don't care if some dictionary is trying to corrupt that.

Languages evolve over time and definintions change and can be added to.  Otherwise we, would all be speaking Latin.
I supposed whenever you have called someone an ass you always meant donkey?  Please.

[Saint Cornelius]

"Ain't" is in the dictionary, but if you say it seriously I'm going to write you off as a dipshit.

that thit ain't right.

A whore is someone who receives money for a sexual act, I don't care if some dictionary is trying to corrupt that.

But what is a trick, though?

[Scurvy Stan]

I'm curious, if someone was murdered and they got DNA from the scene but the DNA matches twin brothers is there anything they can do to prosecute them? Say there was no other evidence and the only thing they had was DNA.

That was on CSI.

[Cyanista]

It was also on law and order, and if DNA evidence is all you have and it matches two people evenly...well, if my tv watching can be believed, the case will be dismissed.  You can't charge two people with a single perpetrator crime.

[whiteACID]

I'm curious, if someone was murdered and they got DNA from the scene but the DNA matches twin brothers is there anything they can do to prosecute them? Say there was no other evidence and the only thing they had was DNA.

That was on CSI.

With that guy from that one movie right?

[Error Macro]

But what is a trick, though?

It's a crafty procedure or practice meant to deceive or defraud.  But when used as a slang term, it could mean a sexual act performed by a prostitute. 

[Saint Cornelius]

whiteacid:

• omfg
• gtfo

[whiteACID]

You had to edit that didn't you?

He was on Dexter :btw, I can't remember which movie though. The shrink Dexter killed, do you know who I'm talking about?

[DeezNutzRBlue]

But what is a trick, though?

It's a crafty procedure or practice meant to deceive or defraud.  But when used as a slang term, it could mean a sexual act performed by a prostitute. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer

A computer is actually a human that computes, at least according to you.  According to you, we use the word computer as slang.  So what is a PC really called?

[Cyanista]

I love how you link to the wiki for HUMAN COMPUTER and pretend that proves something.

Computers are called what they are because of what they do.  You could also call a calculator a computer if you really wanted to.

What you could NOT do is call a girl who fucks for free a whore.

[whiteACID]

An unsavory character.

[Saint Cornelius]

You had to edit that didn't you?

Error Macro was too quick and my mind was not fast enough

He was on Dexter :btw, I can't remember which movie though. The shrink Dexter killed, do you know who I'm talking about?

yeah yeah, the guy from Ghost that used to fuck Letha Weapons IRL. But what's that to do with the price of beans in Boston?

[whiteACID]

WTF are you talking about? he was the character in the CSI episode I was talking about.

[DeezNutzRBlue]

I love how you link to the wiki for HUMAN COMPUTER and pretend that proves something.

Computers are called what they are because of what they do.  You could also call a calculator a computer if you really wanted to.

What you could NOT do is call a girl who fucks for free a whore.

A computer is a glorified calculator! 
1. has a screen
2. has memory.
3. performs calculations.
4. has input.

Why can't you just accept the fact that you are wrong?!?!  Though it is entertaining to watch you scramble for some form of reasoning.

[Saint Cornelius]

WTF are you talking about, he was the character in the CSI episode I was talking about.

girl, can you at least keep yup with what you're talking about?? you said the fucking shrink in Dexter; he's the guy from Ghost that was fucking Letha Weapons in real life! It all fits together as well as everything else you're saying in this thread.

here: Tony Goldwyn.

also, I can totally see what drew you to DeezNuts (ahem) and vice versa. total.

[Cyanista]

I love how you link to the wiki for HUMAN COMPUTER and pretend that proves something.

Computers are called what they are because of what they do.  You could also call a calculator a computer if you really wanted to.

What you could NOT do is call a girl who fucks for free a whore.

A computer is a glorified calculator! 
1. has a screen
2. has memory.
3. performs calculations.
4. has input.

Why can't you just accept the fact that you are wrong?!?!  Though it is entertaining to watch you scramble for some form of reasoning.

Because I'm not wrong.  Trust me, when I am I accept it.  I'm cute enough to just blush and go "OH I didn't know that" and it blows over.

[whiteACID]

WTF are you talking about, he was the character in the CSI episode I was talking about.

girl, can you at least keep yup with what you're talking about?? you said the fucking shrink in Dexter; he's the guy from Ghost that was fucking Letha Weapons in real life! It all fits together as well as everything else you're saying in this thread.

here: Tony Goldwyn.

He was also the shrink in Dexter and I have never seen Ghost.

edit: yes that's him

The movie I was talking about was "The Last Samurai" 

[Saint Cornelius]

omfg redwood.

[whiteACID]

omfg redwood.

That's what you were saying when I kept kicking your ass in President.

[Saint Cornelius]

it's also what i was saying when you couldn't figure out Worms.

[DeezNutzRBlue]

it's also what i was saying when you couldn't figure out Worms.

That was a weird game.

[DeezNutzRBlue]

WTF are you talking about, he was the character in the CSI episode I was talking about.

girl, can you at least keep yup with what you're talking about?? you said the fucking shrink in Dexter; he's the guy from Ghost that was fucking Letha Weapons in real life! It all fits together as well as everything else you're saying in this thread.

here: Tony Goldwyn.


also, I can totally see what drew you to DeezNuts (ahem) and vice versa. total.

What drew her to me was a chance to cheat on her boyfriend.  What drew me to her was her cuteness and personality.  Too bad it was all a lie.

[Saint Cornelius]

While that's all well and good, I don't really understand the benefit of sharing it with a bunch of strangers. BUT LET'S NOT DERAIL THIS THREAD ANY FURTHER, SHALL WE?

[DeezNutzRBlue]

No we shall not.

Anyways, that woman is a stupid whore, but I will stop short of calling her a harlot. 

[captainbiotch]

the epic battle of connotation and denotation.

[Catz]

Anyways, that woman is a stupid whore, but I will stop short of calling her a harlot. 

Wait, now you're bringing her IQ into it too?
Nothing in the story indicates her being stupid, apart from that rodeo mention, but smart people go to rodes too, right? 

We better look up the definition of stupid first.

[Saint Cornelius]

I don't know any people that go to "rodes" though.

[DeezNutzRBlue]

Anyways, that woman is a stupid whore, but I will stop short of calling her a harlot. 

Wait, now you're bringing her IQ into it too?
Nothing in the story indicates her being stupid, apart from that rodeo mention, but smart people go to rodes too, right? 

I'm back at at work so let the English lesson resume!!  I'm really bored, no one is here because the commander gave everyone the day off.  Luckily for me, I work directly for the commander, and he didn't give himself the day off.

Harlot means prostitute or whore.  But much more prostitute.