Lets check in on the Religion of Peace

[drozmight]

Hey, I'm catholic and I don't bomb abortion clinics.

YOUR WORLD HAS JUST BEEN ROCKED!

[brawndolicious]

The Koran may vaguely prohibit suicide, 'Do not destroy yourselves' (4:49). However the Koran has many
more verses which extol martyrdom. For example, 'Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whoever fights for the cause of God, whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him'(4:74).

So the 'suicide bomber' would agree with you, that suicide is wrong, but dying for God is an entirely different matter. I guess, being a Christian, you are an expert at picking and choosing the passages that fit your argument.

it says that you can die in the name of god.  that doesn't mean suicide.  that's supposed to justify when somebody does something knowing they're going to die since they refuse to do anything unislamic (some "propaganda" I saw showed people being killed if they didn't look for salvation in idols).  I didn't read much of the koran but in the beginning it says you can't kill, force, or attack anybody to make them change their religion.

[TVC15]

And I can not believe you went back to the Islam prohibits suicide argument. Is 'Do not destroy yourselves' very definitive ? Especially with all the verses that support martyrdom? It seems pretty clear that the prohibition against suicide has plenty of asterisks.
AGAIN, innocent according to whom? The oppressors and aggressors?

The Prophet said, "Whoever intentionally swears falsely by a religion other than Islam, then he is what he has said, (e.g. if he says, 'If such thing is not true then I am a Jew,' he is really a Jew). And whoever commits suicide with piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in the Hell Fire." Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, "A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him." Sahih Bukhari 2:445

Where's the asterisk in that?

That's from the Hadith, not from the Koran.

And you are missing the point. The mujahidins, or whoever, do not believe they are committing suicide like some little emo boys from California. NO, they are performing an act of martyrdom, dying in a Jihad for Allah. They won't get punished by God for their actions, far from it. THEY WILL GET REWARDED. So whether Islam prohibits suicide is irrelevant since, in their eyes, they are not committing suicide.

"Do not kill yourselves, for Allah is compassionate towards you. Whoever does so, in transgression and wrongfully, We shall roast in a fire, and that is an easy matter for Allah." (an-Nisaa 4:29-30)

Define "in transgression and wrongfully."

[Himu]

This thread gives me a headache.

[Phoenix Dark]

An-Nisa is apart of the Koran Malek. You're grasping at straws.

About suicide, Quran is very clear: "Do not kill yourselves as God has been to you very merciful" (4:29). Taking away the life should be the domain of the One who lives life. True, there is Pain and suffering at the terminal end of an illness, but we believe there is reward from God for those who patiently persevere in suffering (Quran 39:10 and 31:17).
http://www.islam-usa.com/e2.html

it says that you can die in the name of god.  that doesn't mean suicide.  that's supposed to justify when somebody does something knowing they're going to die since they refuse to do anything unislamic (some "propaganda" I saw showed people being killed if they didn't look for salvation in idols).  I didn't read much of the koran but in the beginning it says you can't kill, force, or attack anybody to make them change their religion.

Exactly.

With respect to the quote you posted Malek, it once again fails to take into account innocent blood such as women and children. Which is interesting because if I remember correctly, in the Bible God tells the Israelites to kill all the Philestines, women and children included.

[Flannel Boy]

Me: They (terrorists) don't see it as suicide
PD: Suicide is forbidden
Me: They don't see it as suicide
PD: Suicide is forbidden
Me: They don't see it as suicide
PD: Suicide is forbidden
Me: They don't see it as suicide
PD: Suicide is forbidden
Me: They don't see it as suicide
PD: Suicide is forbidden
Me: They don't see it as suicide
PD: Suicide is forbidden

[Phoenix Dark]

Indeed.

Not only is it forbidden, but the practice of murdering women and children is as well. So you tell me how walking into a coffe shop and blowing yourself up is justified.

[FatalT]

Indeed.

Not only is it forbidden, but the practice of murdering women and children is as well. So you tell me how walking into a coffe shop and blowing yourself up is justified.

Maybe they see it as a sacrifice? They sacrifice themselves for their land and people. That's suicide but then it's not.

[Phoenix Dark]

Indeed.

Not only is it forbidden, but the practice of murdering women and children is as well. So you tell me how walking into a coffe shop and blowing yourself up is justified.

Maybe they see it as a sacrifice? They sacrifice themselves for their land and people. That's suicide but then it's not.

But does that justify it? That is the question. TD Jakes doesn't see himself as a fraud either; that doesn't make him "right".

If suicide is essentially outlawwed by the Koran, how could anyone argue that suicide bombing is justified? Logically it makes no sense.

[Mandark]

On suicide:  I think there's definitely a difference between the suicide that's prohibited in holy texts (traditional Goodbye Cruel World suicide), and suicide bombings, which are essentially acts of homicide or war.  In the second case, sacrificing one's own life is necessary, but incidental to the purpose of the act.  Sacrificing one's life to accomplish something is generally thought of as different from suicide.


The larger (meta-)issue is of nonbelievers giving themselves the authority to decide what is really part of a religion.

When someone says "The terrorists aren't really Muslims," 99 times out of 100 they're trying to rhetorically separate the Terrorists from the Muslims, as a way of arguing against racist or culture-war reactions to terrorist acts.

PD's worried about racism and is generally defensive about organized religion in general.  Yes, it's true that lies about a religious group can be tools in oppressing that group, but this is different.

The fact is, unless you personally believe the word of Allah, and that there is one true interpretation of it, then Islam is whatever practicing Muslims make of it, just like any religion is defined by the actual practice.  Some believe this, some believe that, etc.  Sticking your nose in to tell one group that they're wrong is a bit presumptuous, and futile to boot.

The use of homicide/suicide bombings is open to interpretation in Islam.  How do we know?  Because different Muslims interpret it differently.  QED.

[FatalT]

But does that justify it? That is the question. TD Jakes doesn't see himself as a fraud either; that doesn't make him "right".

If suicide is essentially outlawwed by the Koran, how could anyone argue that suicide bombing is justified? Logically it makes no sense.

When the Spartans fought against the Persian army with only 300 men, they were basically marching into their deaths. This could essentially be seen as suicide since they knew they were going to die. Of course, the men were also sacrificing themselves for their people and city, which was a very justifiable action. They were standing up for what they believed in to honor their way of life and people.

If a soldier were to charge into a group of enemy soldiers with an armed grenade, this would be justifiable. The soldier chooses to kill a large amount of the enemy in the name of his/her nation while giving his own life. The same thing could be said for suicide bombing, of course the enemy consists of civilians. I'm not sure what beliefs you would have to have to consider civilians the enemy. Oh well. I tried here.

[Mupepe]

this is the worst thread ever.

[Himu]

this is the worst thread ever.

[FatalT]

this is the worst thread ever.

OH GOD WHY DID I TRY TO BE PHILOSOPHER I AM FAILURE!

[Mupepe]

this is the worst thread ever.

OH GOD WHY DID I TRY TO BE PHILOSOPHER I AM FAILURE!

because casino royale sucks :'(

you were too busy to watch CoM with me last night  :'(

Instead I watched Dead Silence alone.  :'(

[FatalT]

because casino royale sucks :'(

you were too busy to watch CoM with me last night  :'(

Instead I watched Dead Silence alone.  :'(

I sowwy. We'll watch it tonight!

[Phoenix Dark]

On suicide:  I think there's definitely a difference between the suicide that's prohibited in holy texts (traditional Goodbye Cruel World suicide), and suicide bombings, which are essentially acts of homicide or war.  In the second case, sacrificing one's own life is necessary, but incidental to the purpose of the act.  Sacrificing one's life to accomplish something is generally thought of as different from suicide.


The larger (meta-)issue is of nonbelievers giving themselves the authority to decide what is really part of a religion.

When someone says "The terrorists aren't really Muslims," 99 times out of 100 they're trying to rhetorically separate the Terrorists from the Muslims, as a way of arguing against racist or culture-war reactions to terrorist acts.

PD's worried about racism and is generally defensive about organized religion in general.  Yes, it's true that lies about a religious group can be tools in oppressing that group, but this is different.

The fact is, unless you personally believe the word of Allah, and that there is one true interpretation of it, then Islam is whatever practicing Muslims make of it, just like any religion is defined by the actual practice.  Some believe this, some believe that, etc.  Sticking your nose in to tell one group that they're wrong is a bit presumptuous, and futile to boot.

The use of homicide/suicide bombings is open to interpretation in Islam.  How do we know?  Because different Muslims interpret it differently.  QED.

I disagree. Is substitutionary atonement open to interpretation in Christianity because a small cult disagrees with it?

A more middle of the road question: would you say the practice of killing innocents with suicide bombings is sanctioned by Islam? Suicide bombings through the last few years have often been aimed at bystanders, and according to the Koran the killing of innocents is not permitted...

I wouldn't say I'm defensive of organized religion per se. More often than not I find myself agreeing with the idea that there is nothing wrong with religion, but the particular organization of it (and man's interpetation) is usually the problem. I'm definitely a supporter of religion in general and feel that it's something that does a lot of good. You can look through history and find many instances of instutitions of religion such as the Vatican doing terrible things and not making the world a better place.

[Phoenix Dark]

It's open to interpretation if someone is able to interpret it multiple ways.  It ceases to be open to interpretation only on the level of personal belief.  JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

From a perspective that doesn't believe there's truth in the Bible (for example) it's not hard to have that opinion. But there are things in the Bible that aren't open to interpetation at all, and Muslims feel the same way about their religion as well.

[FlameOfCallandor]

WTF are you babbling about Spartan for. They were fighting other combatants. You could call it suicide in that they were doomed but they killed other soldiers. This is completely different than the despicable act of committing suicide to kill innocent people.

[FlameOfCallandor]

It's open to interpretation if someone is able to interpret it multiple ways.  It ceases to be open to interpretation only on the level of personal belief.  JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

From a perspective that doesn't believe there's truth in the Bible (for example) it's not hard to have that opinion. But there are things in the Bible that aren't open to interpretation at all, and Muslims feel the same way about their religion as well.

I'll tell you right now something that is not open for interpretation. Killing innocent people is wrong. I dont give a shit if some prophets told you it was ok. You just dont do that shit.

[brawndolicious]

I've found that muslims are a lot more likely to believe in suicide bombings than evolution and a lot of them believe in evolution.

[Phoenix Dark]

GTFO THIS CHRISTIAN COUNTRY

[Mandark]

I disagree. Is substitutionary atonement open to interpretation in Christianity because a small cult disagrees with it?

Aha.

In a case like that, I'd say "Almost all of Group A believes in X, except for Group B, which considers itself part of Group A, although Group C within Group A considers them to be apostates."

Remember, as a nonbeliever, I view religions as belief systems.  There is no True Word Of God against which to measure someone's beliefs, and therefor there is no Objectively True Christianity, or Objectively True Islam.  As human creations, they're defined by humans.

Yes, they're tied to holy texts.  Yes, the texts are generally static.  Some parts seem pretty clear to an outsider, and some beliefs are fairly consistent throughout different groups/locations/times within a religion.

But trying to sort out a single, objectively defined philosophy from a holy text?  If people who actually believe it's the word of God can't do it, I'm not going to pretend I can.  Plus, I don't believe it's true anyway, which makes the task doubly moot.

If significant numbers of people who consider themselves to be part of the same religion disagree on an issue, then BY DEFINITION that issue doesn't disqualify someone from being a "real" Christian/Muslim/whatever.  It is what they say it is.  And if they disagree, then it's multiple things.

If you want to start making fatwas, it's a short ride until you have to decide whether the Sunnis or the Shiites aren't "real Muslims."

As for the Koran sanctioning the "killing of innocents," I have no idea.  I haven't read it, and I'm not planning to.  I would suspect the main source of intra-Islam disagreement is in the definition of "innocents."