The NY Times is not very subtle

[Flannel Boy]

Immigration Bill supporters:


Immigration Bill opponents:


Though only 20% want the senate to try and pass the Immigration Bill the New York Times can only find a toothless redneck when they need an opponent of the bill to be photographed.



Goebbels would be proud.

Aryn


Jew:

[Vizzys]

RIP zombie dog

[ToxicAdam]

Bu bu bu the Post is biased!

[futami]

lol

granting amnesty to criminals is ridiculous.

and i'm as left as they come.

[Flannel Boy]

lol

granting amnesty to criminals is ridiculous.

and i'm as left as they come.

bubububu without illegal immigrants you'd have to pay $400 for a pair of jeans. Oh wait, nevermind.

[FlameOfCallandor]

The majority of americans dont support the amnesty bill.

[ToxicAdam]

My solution: Turn the border into a big game of "The Running Man". 24 hour cable television, with daily recaps at 8pm. I smell ratings!

[Mupepe]

I bet 90% of the 20% of those americans that want it to pass aren't even americans.  fucking mexicans.

[Ichirou]

I bet 90% of the 20% of those americans that want it to pass aren't even americans.  fucking mexicans.

I think anyone with even a drop of mexican blood should be sent back across the border.  Their ancestors probably crossed over here illegally anyway.

[Vizzys]

BUT WE STOLE OUR LAND FROM THE INDIANS, BETTER GO BACK TO EUROPE

[Mupepe]

I bet 90% of the 20% of those americans that want it to pass aren't even americans.  fucking mexicans.

I think anyone with even a drop of mexican blood should be sent back across the border.  Their ancestors probably crossed over here illegally anyway.

not mine!  My family has papers to prove their legality   

[Ichirou]

Papers can be forged.  Best not to risk it.

[Mandark]

Nobody seems really happy with the bill, but there are some people who are just apoplectic about it.

From what I've read, it sounds like they tried to work out a compromise where all the main interests would get some consideration, and all their flanks would be covered.  Instead, nobody really gets what they want, and the crazy nativist wing of the GOP is pissed.

Remember when people were talking up the Republican Party mining the latino vote for decades to come?  That was fun while it lasted.

[Flannel Boy]

Remember when people were talking up the Republican Party mining the latino vote for decades to come?  That was fun while it lasted.

Was this another one of Bush's delusions. And why do you have to support amnesty to win the hispanic vote? Are you saying that hispanic-Americans can't get past crude ethnic nepotism? 

[Mandark]

Was this another one of Bush's delusions.

This was Rove, Bush, and some of the other GOP leadership.  Here's a Salon story from 2000 about it.  Also the last paragraph of this interview with Rove.

The basic argument was that hispanic immigrants tended to be religious and culturally conservative, and border state Republicans had some success at getting good chunks of that demographic.  Bush got 44% of the hispanic vote in 2004.  At the very least they wanted to (and felt they could) keep it in play.

And why do you have to support amnesty to win the hispanic vote? Are you saying that hispanic-Americans can't get past crude ethnic nepotism?

I'm saying the most vocal, visible opposition to this bill, at least on the GOP side, is coming from white people brimming with cultural resentment.  The more they're brought to the forefront, the less tenable it is for the Republican party to accommodate the Tancredo wing and a large chunk of latino voters.

The Democratic party was able to hang on to a majority of black voters at the same time as white southerners until the civil rights movement.  The status quo was going to be changed, and two interest groups were pretty much diametrically opposed.  One of them was going to have to find a new home.

[Mupepe]

I'm really amazed sometimes when I debate with some of my hispanic friends about immigration.  They refuse to believe that immigration laws exist for logical reason and insteady choose to believe that they're there specifically to keep hispanic people low on the totem pole. 

Some of them really believe that their cause is this generations civil rights movement. 

What's even better is when you bring up the immigration laws for their respective home country.  El Salvador has strict immigration laws for very appropriate reasons!  America has no excuse!

I'm all for easing the restrictions, but to say that both sides aren't being a bit ridiculous is fucking ludicrous. 

[Ichirou]

MUPEPE IS A RACE TRAITOR

[Mandark]

I'm really amazed sometimes when I debate with some of my hispanic friends about immigration.  They refuse to believe that immigration laws exist for logical reason

Immigration laws are like any other big set of laws (taxes, labor regulations, etc.).  There's a bunch of them, and they're a result of different groups at different times pushing for different goals with different results.  There are reasons they are the way they are, but it's not inherently logical or good.

It's generally a bad idea to leave a law on the books when it isn't being enforced.  An unenforced law is usually an unrealistic one, and it's one that can be selectively used as a bludgeon against certain groups.  Either do what it takes to put it into action, erase it from the books, or write something better.

But yeah, you're right that the people who care the most about this, on both sides, are going to approach this from an emotional perspective rather than a cold, logical, economic argument or something.  Which is why I don't think anyone will be able to come up with a solution that both groups are happy with.

[The Fake Shemp]

I was pretty liberal when it came to immigration when I lived in Maryland - we don't need to worry about it and have the luxury of watching the heated exchanges from afar.  After living in several parts of California for several years, I can say with much certainty that Latin Americans are completely whacko when it comes to immigration reform.  Their reasoning is ridiculous and they won't be happy 'till you can hop the border as you damn well please.

The fact is, the border should be protected and we should let more people in with stricter work and education programs.  Latin Americans don't want to just come in the country, though - they already do that.  They want to come in and use services and not get deported/jailed if they're caught.  It's completely nuts.

[Mandark]

I say jack up or abolish the quotas and secure the border.  There's enough supply and demand that it's unrealistic to think the government could stop immigration any better than it stops the importation of drugs, so make it all legal pending a background check.  Then you don't have a cottage industry devoted to sneaking past the authorities, which is the biggest security issue involved.

I'll admit, I'm sympathetic with the immigrants on this.  I can see where they're coming from.  *I* want to live in the US and use its services and not get deported.

[The Fake Shemp]

I don't mind letting more people in, as long as we know who we're letting in.  They're not taking jobs, but what they are taking away is state and personal resources of actual citizens.  You should be able to work, but you're not entitled to the benefits of American citizenship unless you're an American citizen.  Especially when they're coming into this country and not putting any money back into it; it all goes back home.

I do agree that we need to get rid of coyotes.  They're responsible for more crime and death and immigration problems than anything else at the moment.

The belief that you're entitled American citizenship just 'cause is nuts, though.

[Mandark]

I dunno.  Immigrants definitely pay sales and payroll taxes (Social Security in particular benefits from this).  I'm sure they receive more in benefits than they pay, but that's because they're predominantly poor, and that's how the system is meant to work.

What particularly are you thinking of?  In terms of services that should be available for US citizens but not for non-citizen residents?

[FlameOfCallandor]

I remember a few years go down here in Texas (and i think in california) a bunch of hispanic people decided to protest some immigration thing. They all marched up and down the street waving mexican flags. They probably thought there would be a huge outpour of sympathy. Instead most americans saw a bunch of mexicans waving mexican flags and it was a huge backlash.

If you come to america you need to act american. Speak english for fucks sake and dont call yourself mexican anymore.

[BlueTsunami]

All them spics from across da border gonna make crime go up 110% YEEHAW

[Ichirou]

QUE ONDA GUERO

[Flannel Boy]

This was Rove, Bush, and some of the other GOP leadership.  Here's a Salon story from 2000 about it.  Also the last paragraph of this interview with Rove.

The basic argument was that hispanic immigrants tended to be religious and culturally conservative, and border state Republicans had some success at getting good chunks of that demographic.  Bush got 44% of the hispanic vote in 2004.  At the very least they wanted to (and felt they could) keep it in play.

44% for a pro-amnesty president who speaks Spanish. Outside that election and outside Cubans in Florida, most Hispanics vote Democrat. Hispanics are not as socially conservative as Republicans claim (explain why over 50% of Hispanics in America are born out of wedlock?) and they are not, on average, fiscally conservative (various Pew poll show they lean heavily to the left). There is no reason to believe that they would be long term GOP voters. 

I dunno.  Immigrants definitely pay sales and payroll taxes (Social Security in particular benefits from this).  I'm sure they receive more in benefits than they pay, but that's because they're predominantly poor, and that's how the system is meant to work.

What particularly are you thinking of?  In terms of services that should be available for US citizens but not for non-citizen residents?

Many of the illegals are high school drop outs. On average a high school drop out receives $20 000 more in services than he pays in taxes per year. So you lettuce picker is being subsidized by tax payers. His low wages are illusory.

[Eduardo24]

What I find absolutely ridiculous (sp?) is that there are la immigrants that donīt even know how to speak english, WTF.   

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Mi prima ha vivido 10 aņos en US, y no sabe hablar ingles.  Que mierda, saquense el dedo.

[close]

[Ichirou]

Is your cousin hot?  I'll help her get naturalized if ya know what I mean.

[Eduardo24]

She is hot (really), but she is already married.  Sorry.

[The Fake Shemp]

I dunno.  Immigrants definitely pay sales and payroll taxes (Social Security in particular benefits from this).

Wait, are you implying that many immigrants are LEGITIMATELY paid and pay social out of their wages?  That is nuts.  I can tell you with firsthand knowledge that I worked for an employer that had a dozen or so Mexican illegals that were not paid on the up and up.

And a lot of the illegal immigrants that pay taxes do so with a SS number that is stolen and that causes more problems and wastes more time than any money they might give to the government as a result.

[Mandark]

. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

malek: Doof doof, man.

[FlameOfCallandor]

WE NEED ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, WITHOUT THEM OUR COUNTYY WILL FAIL.


Seriously, why would an illegal worker pay taxes.

[Flannel Boy]

Mandark, it's a good thing that the only program that any level of government pays for is Social Security. OH WAIT!

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

And that is just at the federal level. Much of the burden is at the local level.

California's nearly 3 million illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $9 billion each year

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/19_56_5812_5_04.txt

[FlameOfCallandor]

Mandark, it's a good thing that the only program that any level of government pays for is Social Security. OH WAIT!

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

And that is just at the federal level. Much of the burden is at the local level.

California's nearly 3 million illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $9 billion each year

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/19_56_5812_5_04.txt

You racist. How can you even say things like that. Obviously you are so busy burning crosses that you can't look at my facts!

[Mandark]

I dunno.  Immigrants definitely pay sales and payroll taxes (Social Security in particular benefits from this).  I'm sure they receive more in benefits than they pay, but that's because they're predominantly poor, and that's how the system is meant to work.

What particularly are you thinking of?  In terms of services that should be available for US citizens but not for non-citizen residents?

The SS stats were for Willco.

The doof doof was for Malek's lack of reading comprehension.