Author Topic: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen  (Read 1668 times)

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futami

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Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« on: June 23, 2007, 05:00:19 AM »
my brother's gay, and i don't have a problem with it, my acceptance of it more attributable to his role as my brother than any lack of ambivalence over homosexuality.

his sexuality aside, i still have a problem with the whole gay agenda, the idea that the general distaste for their lifestyle makes them as disenfranchised as african americans during the height of the civil rights movement.

but my main question is:

do you think it's a choice, that a man chooses that he will begin having sex with other men?

or is it innate, a natural inclination that's genetically derived, where they can't help but be attracted to males?

Vizzys

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2007, 05:14:06 AM »
:lol

this hot columbian girl named delilah is sucking my cock as i type this.


might I ask why five minutes later you decided to write about homosexuality
萌え~

Ichirou

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2007, 05:24:56 AM »
...cheeseburger surprise?
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brawndolicious

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2007, 05:27:09 AM »
oh god, I think I saw you and your brother today.





I can see you disputing the ridiculousness of the gay agenda while a colombian girl sucks your dick in your parent's basement.

Mondain

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2007, 05:36:41 AM »
in most any case a natural inclination, that might however be catalyzed or discovered by exposure to modern gay culture in the medias, and encouraged as closeted gays find role models to which they identify to

some people's sexuality seems to be ambiguous, possibly all due to genetical predispositions, so in some cases one might "choose" whether he is gay or straight

TVC15

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2007, 05:52:25 AM »
in most any case a natural inclination, that might however be catalyzed or discovered by exposure to modern gay culture in the medias, and encouraged as closeted gays find role models to which they identify to

some people's sexuality seems to be ambiguous, possibly all due to genetical predispositions, so in some cases one might "choose" whether he is gay or straight

I would word it differently, but the sentiments displayed here seem largely accurate.

It may not be a flat out genetic thing, and despite the numbers revealed in twins research, it may not have a genetic component at all, but to say homosexuality is a choice is rather silly.  fegs don't choose to feel how they do; the gay is there when the hormones kick in.  Whether nature (genes), or nurture (environmental factors), it is not a choice.

As for the second part of Jotaro's statement, I have met largely asexual people that feel the need to shoehorn themselves into one sexual identity or another, due to the societal pressures of growing up (if you aren't thinking of mating by the time you reach 20, you start to think something is wrong. . .take it from me).  I think at least some of those folks convince themselves they are gay due to expecting an "ordinary" life and being surprised when their dice rolls are displeasing ("Wow, I have no interest in breeding or families or sex with women.  Maybe I'm gay?").  That's an edge subject, so I can't claim a whole lot of knowledge on it, but I have seen it enough to raise a flag.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 05:54:04 AM by TVC 15 »
serge

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2007, 11:59:34 AM »
one would have to be crazy that it's 100% one way or the other.

Some people are gay by choice and choose to do it just because it's different, or it seems fun.  Some people are definitely gay and are born with it.  (example:  men crying and wishing to god that they were straight).

I'm glad they embrace it, I can live with them being annoying much easier than hetero people I know hanging them/castrating them.
:-þ

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2007, 12:39:12 PM »
yup, it's both. some people have a biological imperative towards the homo; others choose to, er, "expand" their typically heterosexual inclinations in order to express a lifestyle they want, and a whole truckload are in between.
duc

futami

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2007, 12:40:25 PM »
in most any case a natural inclination, that might however be catalyzed or discovered by exposure to modern gay culture in the medias, and encouraged as closeted gays find role models to which they identify to

some people's sexuality seems to be ambiguous, possibly all due to genetical predispositions, so in some cases one might "choose" whether he is gay or straight

I would word it differently, but the sentiments displayed here seem largely accurate.

It may not be a flat out genetic thing, and despite the numbers revealed in twins research, it may not have a genetic component at all, but to say homosexuality is a choice is rather silly.  fegs don't choose to feel how they do; the gay is there when the hormones kick in.  Whether nature (genes), or nurture (environmental factors), it is not a choice.

As for the second part of Jotaro's statement, I have met largely asexual people that feel the need to shoehorn themselves into one sexual identity or another, due to the societal pressures of growing up (if you aren't thinking of mating by the time you reach 20, you start to think something is wrong. . .take it from me).  I think at least some of those folks convince themselves they are gay due to expecting an "ordinary" life and being surprised when their dice rolls are displeasing ("Wow, I have no interest in breeding or families or sex with women.  Maybe I'm gay?").  That's an edge subject, so I can't claim a whole lot of knowledge on it, but I have seen it enough to raise a flag.

doesn't nurture involve choice?

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2007, 01:34:56 PM »
I dont really know either way, but when people say that straight isn't "normal" it's pretty ridiculous. Of curse it's normal to be straight. If it wasn't humans wouldn't reproduce and the human race wouldn't exist.

Straight is still the standard.

Chumley

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2007, 01:36:52 PM »
If you really want to know what science is saying about this, I would suggest a website like www.narth.org.  What these doctors are saying is that you aren't born with a "gay gene".  Rather, for some who have certain specific character traits undergo a neglected or abusive family upbringing usually by the same sex parent (father - son, mother -daughter).  This triggers a psychological disorder towards a same sex attraction.  Doctors are finding that this can be completely reversed now that they know what causes it.  I should say that this is not the only thing that causes homosexuality, and there are things doctors still don't know. 

Here is a scenario from Narth.org that shows how homosexuality might develop:

(1) Our scenario starts with birth. The boy (for example) who one day may go on to struggle with homosexuality is born with certain features that are somewhat more common among homosexuals than in the population at large. Some of these traits might be inherited (genetic), while others might have been caused by the "intrauterine environment" (hormones). What this means is that a youngster without these traits will be somewhat less likely to become homosexual later than someone with them.

What are these traits? If we could identify them precisely, many of them would turn out to be gifts rather than "problems," for example a "sensitive" disposition, a strong creative drive, a keen aesthetic sense. Some of these, such as greater sensitivity, could be related to - or even the same as - physiological traits that also cause trouble, such as a greater-than-average anxiety response to any given stimulus.

No one knows with certainty just what these heritable characteristics are; at present we only have hints. Were we free to study homosexuality properly (uninfluenced by political agendas) we would certainly soon clarify these factors - just as we are doing in less contentious areas. In any case, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the behavior "homosexuality" is itself directly inherited.

(2) From a very early age potentially heritable characteristics mark the boy as "different." He finds himself somewhat shy and uncomfortable with the typical "rough and tumble" of his peers. Perhaps he is more interested in art or in reading - simply because he's smart. But when he later thinks about his early life, he will find it difficult to separate out what in these early behavioral differences came from an inherited temperament and what from the next factor, namely:

(3) That for whatever reason, he recalls a painful "mismatch" between what he needed and longed for and what his father offered him. Perhaps most people would agree that his father was distinctly distant and ineffective; maybe it was just that his own needs were unique enough that his father, a decent man, could never quite find the right way to relate to him. Or perhaps his father really disliked and rejected his son's sensitivity. In any event, the absence of a happy, warm, and intimate closeness with his father led to the boy's pulling away in disappointment, "defensively detaching" in order to protect himself.

But sadly, this pulling away from his father, and from the "masculine" role model he needed, also left him even less able to relate to his male peers. We may contrast this to the boy whose loving father dies, for instance, but who is less vulnerable to later homosexuality. This is because the commonplace dynamic in the pre-homosexual boy is not merely the absence of a father - literally or psychologically - but the psychological defense of the boy against his repeatedly disappointing father. In fact, a youngster who does not form this defense (perhaps because of early-enough therapy, or because there is another important male figure in his life, or due to temperament) is much less likely to become homosexual.

Complementary dynamics involving the boy's mother are also likely to have played an important role. Because people tend to marry partners with "interlocking neuroses," the boy probably found himself in a problematic relationship with both parents.

For all these reasons, when as an adult he looked back on his childhood, the now-homosexual man recalls, "From the beginning I was always different. I never got along well with the boys my age and felt more comfortable around girls." This accurate memory makes his later homosexuality feel convincingly to him as though it was "preprogrammed" from the start.

(4) Although he has "defensively detached" from his father, the young boy still carries silently within him a terrible longing for the warmth, love, and encircling arms of the father he never did nor could have. Early on, he develops intense, nonsexual attachments to older boys he admires - but at a distance, repeating with them the same experience of longing and unavailability. When puberty sets in, sexual urges - which can attach themselves to any object, especially in males - rise to the surface and combine with his already intense need for masculine intimacy and warmth. He begins to develop homosexual crushes. Later he recalls, "My first sexual longings were directed not at girls but at boys. I was never interested in girls."

Psychotherapeutic intervention at this point and earlier can be successful in preventing the development of later homosexuality. Such intervention is aimed in part at helping the boy change his developing effeminate patterns (which derive from a "refusal" to identify with the rejected father), but more critically, it is aimed at teaching his father - if only he will learn - how to become appropriately involved with and related to his son.

(5) As he matures (especially in our culture where early, extramarital sexual experiences are sanctioned and even encouraged), the youngster, now a teen, begins to experiment with homosexual activity. Or alternatively his needs for same-sex closeness may already have been taken advantage of by an older boy or man, who preyed upon him sexually when he was still a child. (Recall the studies that demonstrate the high incidence of sexual abuse in the childhood histories of homosexual men.) Or oppositely, he may avoid such activities out of fear and shame in spite of his attraction to them. In any event, his now-sexualized longings cannot merely be denied, however much he may struggle against them. It would be cruel for us at this point to imply that these longings are a simple matter of "choice."

Indeed, he remembers having spent agonizing months and years trying to deny their existence altogether or pushing them away, to no avail. One can easily imagine how justifiably angry he will later be when someone casually and thoughtlessly accuses him of "choosing" to be homosexual. When he seeks help, he hears one of two messages, and both terrify him; either, "Homosexuals are bad people and you are a bad person for choosing to be homosexual. There is no place for you here and God is going to see to it that you suffer for being so bad;" or "Homosexuality is inborn and unchangeable. You were born that way. Forget about your fairytale picture of getting married and having children and living in a little house with a white picket fence. God made you who you are and he/she destined you for the gay life. Learn to enjoy it."

(6) At some point, he gives in to his deep longings for love and begins to have voluntary homosexual experiences. He finds - possibly to his horror - that these old, deep, painful longings are at least temporarily, and for the first time ever, assuaged.

Although he may also therefore feel intense conflict, he cannot help admit that the relief is immense. This temporary feeling of comfort is so profound - going well beyond the simple sexual pleasure that anyone feels in a less fraught situation - that the experience is powerfully reinforced. However much he may struggle, he finds himself powerfully driven to repeat the experience. And the more he does, the more it is reinforced and the more likely it is he will repeat it yet again, though often with a sense of diminishing returns.

(7) He also discovers that, as for anyone, sexual orgasm is a powerful reliever of distress of all sorts. By engaging in homosexual activities he has already crossed one of the most critical and strongly enforced boundaries of sexual taboo. It is now easy for him to cross other taboo boundaries as well, especially the significantly less severe taboo pertaining to promiscuity. Soon homosexual activity becomes the central organizing factor in his life as he slowly acquires the habit of turning to it regularly - not just because of his original need for fatherly warmth of love, but to relieve anxiety of any sort.

(8 ) In time, his life becomes even more distressing than for most. Some of this is in fact, as activists claim, because all-too-often he experiences from others a cold lack of sympathy or even open hostility. The only people who seem really to accept him are other gays, and so he forms an even stronger bond with them as a "community." But it is not true, as activists claim, that these are the only or even the major stresses. Much distress is caused simply by his way of life - for example, the medical consequences, AIDS being just one of many (if also the worst). He also lives with the guilt and shame that he inevitably feels over his compulsive, promiscuous behavior; and too over the knowledge that he cannot relate effectively to the opposite sex and is less likely to have a family (a psychological loss for which political campaigns for homosexual marriage, adoption, and inheritance rights can never adequately compensate).

However much activists try to normalize for him these patterns of behavior and the losses they cause, and however expedient it may be for political purposes to hide them from the public-at-large, unless he shuts down huge areas of his emotional life he simply cannot honestly look at himself in this situation and feel content.

And no one - not even a genuine, dyed-in-the-wool, sexually insecure "homophobe" - is nearly so hard on him as he is on himself. Furthermore, the self-condemning messages that he struggles with on a daily basis are in fact only reinforced by the bitter self-derogating wit of the very gay culture he has embraced. The activists around him keep saying that it is all caused by the "internalized homophobia" of the surrounding culture, but he knows that it is not.

The stresses of "being gay" lead to more, not less, homosexual behavior. This principle, perhaps surprising to the layman (at least to the layman who has not himself gotten caught up in some pattern, of whatever type) is typical of the compulsive or addictive cycle of self-destructive behavior; wracking guilt, shame, and self-condemnation only causes it to increase. It is not surprising that people therefore turn to denial to rid themselves of these feelings, and he does too. He tells himself, "It is not a problem, therefore there is no reason for me to feel so bad about it."

(9) After wrestling with such guilt and shame for so many years, the boy, now an adult, comes to believe, quite understandably - and because of his denial, needs to believe - "I can't change anyway because the condition is unchangeable." If even for a moment he considers otherwise, immediately arises the painful query, "Then why haven't I...?" and with it returns all the shame and guilt.

Thus, by the time the boy becomes a man, he has pieced together this point of view: "I was always different, always an outsider. I developed crushes on boys from as long as I can remember and the first time I fell in love it was with a boy, not a girl. I had no real interest in members of the opposite sex. Oh, I tried all right - desperately. But my sexual experiences with girls were nothing special. But the first time I had homosexual sex it just 'felt right.' So it makes perfect sense to me that homosexuality is genetic. I've tried to change - God knows how long I struggled - and I just can't. That's because it's not changeable. Finally, I stopped struggling and just accepted myself the way I am."

(10) Social attitudes toward homosexuality will play a role in making it more or less likely that the man will adopt an "inborn and unchangeable" perspective, and at what point in his development. It is obvious that a widely shared and propagated worldview that normalizes homosexuality will increase the likelihood of his adopting such beliefs, and at an earlier age. But it is perhaps less obvious - it follows from what we have discussed above - that ridicule, rejection, and harshly punitive condemnation of him as a person will be just as likely (if not more likely) to drive him into the same position.


"Homosexuality Is Not Hardwired," Concludes Dr. Francis S. Collins, Head Of The Human Genome Project and co-discoverer of the sctructure of DNA

TVC15

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2007, 01:38:45 PM »
in most any case a natural inclination, that might however be catalyzed or discovered by exposure to modern gay culture in the medias, and encouraged as closeted gays find role models to which they identify to

some people's sexuality seems to be ambiguous, possibly all due to genetical predispositions, so in some cases one might "choose" whether he is gay or straight

I would word it differently, but the sentiments displayed here seem largely accurate.

It may not be a flat out genetic thing, and despite the numbers revealed in twins research, it may not have a genetic component at all, but to say homosexuality is a choice is rather silly.  fegs don't choose to feel how they do; the gay is there when the hormones kick in.  Whether nature (genes), or nurture (environmental factors), it is not a choice.

As for the second part of Jotaro's statement, I have met largely asexual people that feel the need to shoehorn themselves into one sexual identity or another, due to the societal pressures of growing up (if you aren't thinking of mating by the time you reach 20, you start to think something is wrong. . .take it from me).  I think at least some of those folks convince themselves they are gay due to expecting an "ordinary" life and being surprised when their dice rolls are displeasing ("Wow, I have no interest in breeding or families or sex with women.  Maybe I'm gay?").  That's an edge subject, so I can't claim a whole lot of knowledge on it, but I have seen it enough to raise a flag.

doesn't nurture involve choice?

Not necessarily.  Environmental factors could mean something like womb conditions during gestation, or even conditions at birth or conception.

The only thing known for sure is that anyone that makes the conscious choice to be homosexual, especially at a later age, is pretty damned stupid.

Quote
I dont really know either way, but when people say that straight isn't "normal" it's pretty ridiculous. Of curse it's normal to be straight. If it wasn't humans wouldn't reproduce and the human race wouldn't exist.

Straight is still the standard.

Who the fuck ever said that straight isn't normal?  Have you been talking with am nintenho or something?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 02:29:48 PM by TVC 15 »
serge

Ichirou

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2007, 01:40:54 PM »
I have gay friends and family members and I believe it's probably genetic for the majority of gay people.  It's not really a choice, IMO, it's just the way you feel.  Not that it's something I spend my day thinking about.  No offense but I don't really care how it happens, I'm more interested in supporting gay rights (marriage, laws against discrimination in the workplace, etc.) and such.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 01:42:42 PM by Ichirou »
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2007, 02:22:39 PM »
Collins is also a nutbar Christian and has pretty specific agenda. While his observations may have merit, his conclusions and solutions are grossly incorrect and informed by the entirely religious notion that homosexuality is undesirable in modern society and should be corrected.
duc

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2007, 02:25:31 PM »

The only thing known for sure is that anyone that makes the conscious choice to be homosexual, especially at an early age, is pretty damned stupid.

Isnt that Nick?

He said he knew he was gay when he was 6.  ::)

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2007, 02:27:46 PM »
he said he KNEW he was gay, not that he said he CHOSE to be gay at age 6 you illiterate pedestrian pudgebeast.
duc

TVC15

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2007, 02:29:03 PM »

The only thing known for sure is that anyone that makes the conscious choice to be homosexual, especially at an early age, is pretty damned stupid.

Isnt that Nick?

He said he knew he was gay when he was 6.  ::)

Argh, I slipped up, I meant to say at a later age (as in past puberty or so).  My bad.
serge

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2007, 02:30:03 PM »
he said he KNEW he was gay, not that he said he CHOSE to be gay at age 6 you illiterate pedestrian pudgebeast.

Yes, he  knew he was gay before 99% of the population even knows about gender or the opposite sex.

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2007, 02:32:12 PM »
jesus, i knew the difference between girls and boys when i was fucking TWO. no wonder your unsatisfied girlfriend suspects you of being gay!
duc

TVC15

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2007, 02:32:25 PM »
he said he KNEW he was gay, not that he said he CHOSE to be gay at age 6 you illiterate pedestrian pudgebeast.

Yes, he  knew he was gay before 99% of the population even knows about gender or the opposite sex.

I wouldn't discount it.  I know people that I trust that have said similar things.  I believe when they say things like that, they aren't thinking of the sexual component, but just the "I am clearly different than other boys" sense of things.
serge

Ichirou

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2007, 02:34:13 PM »
Hey, I used to get funny feelings when I was in elementary school, and it always happened when I saw attractive girls in TV or magazines.  It wasn't sexual per se, but there was definitely biological instinct there.
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FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2007, 02:34:27 PM »
Instead of having a Ninja Turtles poster they have a Cher poster?

TVC15

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2007, 02:35:28 PM »
Instead of having a Ninja Turtles poster they have a Cher poster?

Possibly.  When you KNOW GAY PEOPLE there are invariably the ones that got a hold of like, a barbie doll or some shit when they were a kid.
serge

Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2007, 04:02:58 PM »

 Its a choice

Error Macro

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Re: Is Homosexuality naturally derived or chosen
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2007, 04:40:00 PM »
Possibly.  When you KNOW GAY PEOPLE there are invariably the ones that got a hold of like, a barbie doll or some shit when they were a kid.

I blame Rainbow Brite for my attraction to short, mustachioed men in trash cans.  But then girls named Patty who wear green really do it for me as well.  I'm so confused.
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