Author Topic: star trek  (Read 334620 times)

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Tasty

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Re: star trek
« Reply #720 on: September 18, 2017, 01:04:55 AM »
Also Roddenberry apparently wanted the Jean-Luc plot to be some kind of scifi adventure shit... :lol

What a crazy old coot.

Tasty

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chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #722 on: September 18, 2017, 05:48:22 PM »
https://www.avclub.com/new-trailer-confirms-star-trek-discovery-will-be-tv-ma-1798449704

:mindblown

To be honest, my first reaction is "WTF" and then I remember that they phaser-melted the top half of that one admiral on normal broadcast TV. Still, I'm un-sold that Discovery needs to be dark and gritty.

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #723 on: September 18, 2017, 09:49:24 PM »
Rated M Star Trek :mindblown
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Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #724 on: September 19, 2017, 02:27:13 AM »
I don't give a crap about the rating. Just want a decent show. The last two treks sucked and it had almost nothing to do with what they were rated.

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #725 on: September 19, 2017, 02:38:47 AM »
Yeah I want a decent show too but still :mindblown
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seagrams hotsauce

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Re: star trek
« Reply #726 on: September 19, 2017, 04:14:41 AM »

My knives are sharpened

My hairs are dyed black

My heads are like holes

Grimdartrek let's GOOOOOOO


Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #728 on: September 21, 2017, 02:04:12 AM »
IYKYK

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #729 on: September 21, 2017, 02:20:26 AM »
So, Star Trek is not carried by anyone in Japan on streaming, and TOS is $10/season. I'm probably biting.

Enterprise is $20/season — is it worth it? I've never seen much of it.

I think I've got DS9 from The Internet Store at some point, and need to watch more of it.

Of course, they still want $30/season of TNG; ain't gonna bite just yet.

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #730 on: September 21, 2017, 03:23:23 AM »
I would Internet Store Enterprise because if it doesn't click with you for the reasons that it's actually decent you've got less than two seasons of actual good plots. And that includes the third season arc (which is structurally sound as finally doing a single season "year of hell" type format but has plenty of misfired episodes throughout) and the fourth season's mini-arcs format.

Then again, at $80 for the whole thing, I still don't know. And I'm a bigger fan of Enterprise than most. It's very like Voyager in terms of if you just want Trek to throw on but you don't want to actually watch every episode unless it catches your attention knowing that you can skip two or three episodes in a row sometimes. Plus like Scott Bakula. SCOTT. BAKULA. And most of the cast is better fleshed out in two and a half seasons than Voyager did in seven.

I really like its aesthetics and use of character roles. It's not a pleasure cruise like TNG and VOY, they have jobs, it's a job. The ship is cramped and sparse even when they're at their best. They don't have a conference room, they crowd around the map/sensor table at the back of the bridge. When it gets BIG UPGRADES for the year long deep space mission of season three, it's not like Astrometrics or Seven's Borg Hive in terms of new sets. They get like a tiny prep/practice room for the armed soldiers they take on. And the captain loses his dining room. (Which sat three or four at max, but I thought had potential as a dramatic space.)

Even his ready room is a cramped workspace dominated by his desk. Sick bay is like the most spacious place on the ship because Engineering has the Engine sitting in the middle of it so they all are on walkways around it. The jumpsuits have pockets and zippers and crap.

It's funny because the premise is about how they're the first real space explorers for Earth but you compare how they go about it to all the rest, even TOS which was defining the concept for the show, and there's a real making it up as we go along and we do this because we're the only ones vibe more than it is this grand endeavor.

The show falters, especially in the first two seasons, when it tries to make the whole thing bigger than it is with this TEMPORAL COLD WAR THAT ARCHER WILL BLAH BLAH that gets dropped and then given a two episode send-off. Even from the first episode you can tell that Braga and co. pitched an idea they didn't actually want to do, they want to establish as much of Trek as we know it as possible as quick as possible and setup all this future crap rather than like Voyager deal with all the potential that lay in the base concept.

It's unfortunate that TNG was split between revisiting the core parts of Trek universe while also trying to boldly go. So they then split it by having DS9 stationary and thus stuck with everything that happens, while VOY is sent far away so it's forced to boldly go. And ENT should redo VOY but properly but instead drifts into TNG territory. From the very first episode too, they immediately fly off to the Klingon homeworld, which is like totally supposed to be really far away and talk to them like it no big thang, and also their idea of "boldly going" is time travel garbage that nobody ever mentioned before in Earth's backyard. (The whole Xindi arc has this issue but takes the franchise out of its comfort zone just enough to make it work.) People like the fourth season and I guess I do but it seems like it immediately falls into the trap TNG did, with yay, Vulcans and Khan-type people and Klingons and Romulans and this isn't really new and making it them but before isn't very interesting for most of the mini-arcs but I guess at that point they were just trying to save the show long enough to get to the fifth season and do the Romulan War and founding of the Federation as a send-off. (Which we instead experience as Riker on the holodeck back during TNG!)

Momo

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Re: star trek
« Reply #731 on: September 21, 2017, 03:46:07 AM »
Quote
Disney had to pay Paramount seven figures to allow JJ Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode IX, to compensate them for getting out of the $10 million/year deal he's under with that studio.
:rofl :rofl :wag :doge

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #732 on: September 21, 2017, 03:54:45 AM »
J.J. is slowly becoming the savior of Trek after all. :lawd

Brought in Simon Pegg, recommended Justin Lin over Orci, bringing in a bunch of Disney (for some odd reason despite it being about Star Wars) cash so they can write off the insane cost of the first season of Discovery :rejoice

Mr. Nobody

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Re: star trek
« Reply #733 on: September 21, 2017, 10:40:34 AM »
Haven't had time to watch this week and I'm mildly upset about it  >:(

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #734 on: September 21, 2017, 11:55:57 PM »
Thanks for the write-up, Benji!

I'll wait on Enterprise, watch my already-queued DS9, and the newly-purchased first year of TOS.

I've got to say, Queen is right; the writing on this show is terse, efficient, and fun. The newly restored effects are also nice and subtle (TAKE A CLUE, GEORGE LUCAS), matching the tone and color palette of the restored film footage. Really nice.

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #735 on: September 22, 2017, 02:08:42 AM »
One other thing I kinda liked thinking about the main cast as a contrast to the others, even though it's their job and the show emphasizes that more than the Treks to come (or rather, Treks that came before) there's no Starfleet Academy. So Archer's crew isn't staffed by people who came up through any kind of preparatory system like everybody we've seen before, it's more like a crew of O'Briens than of LaForges constantly quoting by the book or whatever.

Tucker and Hoshi are on the ship because Archer knows them from the past and they're the best at what they do, and even then he has to really work hard to get Hoshi to come because she dislikes space. Malcom's background is coming up through the British program and then into the slowly forming Earth one but again he's seen as one of the best in his field which is why he's brought on. I forget where they get Mayweather from but so does everyone else I guess he pilots the ship so why not. T'Pol is on the ship because the Vulcans not only are more knowledgeable about where the Enterprise will be headed but she's also effectively a diplomat/spy for the Vulcans regarding Earth's motives. (One of the parts they do well early in the show is establish that the Vulcans aren't particularly respected by other races either for their whole looking down on inferiors and such, so the Andorians and Shran are initially hostile to the Enterprise due to the perceived connection until Archer shows he has his own agenda and isn't enamored with the Vulcans either.) Phlox is on the ship initially for the first mission because Archer trusts him more than the story he's getting from others and he sticks around because he finds it interesting.

The T'Pol fitting in slowly with the rest of the crew and living with humans storyline is handled better than the Seven iteration, especially since she doesn't have magic nanoprobes to solve every problem, and the way they shift her loyalties subtly to Archer and the rest of the ship and away from the Vulcan High Command makes sense even if it has to be done to keep her on the show.

Cerveza mas fina

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Re: star trek
« Reply #736 on: September 22, 2017, 02:39:57 AM »
3 more days  :hyper

Momo

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Re: star trek
« Reply #737 on: September 22, 2017, 03:22:08 AM »
3 more days  :hyper
I mean, we know it's going to be shit why get hyped?  :idont

Cerveza mas fina

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Re: star trek
« Reply #738 on: September 22, 2017, 04:40:18 AM »
I have read nothing about it. Just going to turn it on and see.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #739 on: September 22, 2017, 10:19:23 AM »
The early buzz from people who have seen it has been positive. That means nothing but just putting it out there.

It also can't be any worse than those last three movies.

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #740 on: September 24, 2017, 01:15:39 AM »
IIRC, Queenie's current got a bug up her butt about SJWs, but I loved this:

https://twitter.com/BlkNrdProblems/status/911762507907387392

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #741 on: September 24, 2017, 03:20:47 AM »
Sjw is the last thing I'd use to describe trek
IYKYK

Rufus

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Re: star trek
« Reply #742 on: September 24, 2017, 09:39:05 AM »
I forgot what distinction you've made in regards to the term, but it bears mentioning that not everyone uses it the same way. It's very often just a generic and reflexive dismissal of progressive views and themes. Relevant examples.

Reading the Urban Dictionary entries on the term is very illustrative. The first couple of entries describes very well what people who use it unironically assume about the dreaded Social Studies Warrior menace and why they feel justified.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Takes until entry 4 for 'cultural marxism' to make an appearance. :teehee And even then in a way that makes it look like the people who it's aimed at popularized it. :dead
[close]
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 10:25:41 AM by Rufus »

Mr. Nobody

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Re: star trek
« Reply #743 on: September 24, 2017, 10:56:45 AM »
Don't you people dare ruin this thread with that bullshit  :pacspit :pacspit :pacspit

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #744 on: September 24, 2017, 11:03:06 AM »
TODAY!
IYKYK

Re: star trek
« Reply #745 on: September 24, 2017, 11:10:54 AM »
This had better not suck.

seagrams hotsauce

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Re: star trek
« Reply #746 on: September 24, 2017, 02:32:40 PM »
IIRC, Queenie's current got a bug up her butt about Social Studies Warriors, but I loved this:

https://twitter.com/BlkNrdProblems/status/911762507907387392

I called the whining about Social Studies Warriors about six three months ago. I'd link it but I made a hideous typo in the post so I'll just quote benji's response to my post instead

like how do we get more diverse in Star Trek

picture above in that tweet isn't the half of what DS9 was doing, Mirror Kira basically wanted to fuck her counterpart

TNG was doing genderless or multigender species

every relationship Harry Kim was involved in (ALSO THE FACT THAT HE DIED AND IT WAS SOME HARRY KIM FROM ANOTHER UNIVERSE ON THE SHIP FOR THE REST OF THE SHOW AND NOBODY EVER BROUGHT IT UP LIKE HOW IS THIS NOT WEIRDING PEOPLE OUT)

I knew it would happen, but it still kills me that the irony of whining about a Star Trek series pandering to progressives is completely lost on some folks

seagrams hotsauce

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Re: star trek
« Reply #747 on: September 24, 2017, 02:37:17 PM »
Btw the rollout for this is distinguished mentally-challenged. I only just realized today that they're airing it on CBS tonight in addition to the streaming thing, but I'm guessing that's a one off thing? I hear it's on Netflix outside of the US and CA so I guess I'll be VPNing the rest of the series cuz I sure as fuck ain't giving another dime to the people who bring abominations like Young Sheldon to life

Tasty

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Re: star trek
« Reply #748 on: September 24, 2017, 02:38:27 PM »
Aside from Star Trek Beyond halfassing it, has any canon ST media touched "the gay?"

seagrams hotsauce

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Re: star trek
« Reply #749 on: September 24, 2017, 02:42:34 PM »
Not in any real depth, but they've touched on gay stuff a couple times



I don't even know if this counts considering Dax itself doesn't seem to have a defined gender? I dunno

Tasty

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Re: star trek
« Reply #750 on: September 24, 2017, 03:09:12 PM »
Yeah been reading up on it here: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/homosexuality.htm

A lot of brushes and allegories. And then:

Quote
Lt. Stamets, an astromycologist played by Anthony Rapp, will be the first openly gay character in Star Trek.

Appalling it took this long, tbh.

seagrams hotsauce

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Re: star trek
« Reply #751 on: September 24, 2017, 03:35:24 PM »
I mean, I guess? The last Trek series started almost two decades ago and gay folks could only get married in one state by the time it ended. There hasn't really been an opportunity for Trek to address it (tho wasn't Sulu gay in the new ones?) for a decade and cultural attitudes towards gay rights have changed a lot in that time

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #752 on: September 24, 2017, 06:40:33 PM »
Why in the fuck would anyone be shocked of people complaining about Social Studies Warriors ruining the new Star Trek? People blame Social Studies Warriors for Tekken 7 having less customization options than Tag 2 despite the fact the only real viable customization for female characters tends to have little range between "hooker" and "boring af but at least she doesn't look like fucking hooker". People blame Social Studies Warriors for everything.

And I don't understand how Beyond's scene is half assed? Seeing media treating homosexuality as normal and in not really necessarily requiring an hour long episode dedicated to it is far more preferable. Trek is at its most cringe worthy when they take a modern pet issue and do something like,"hey remember that topic in our world and time? Well this is how it is....in space!" Sometimes it works but for the most part it doesn't. I don't see any value in dedicating an entire episode to the topic and would much rather have a character have a long term same sex partner and the cast treats it like it ain't no big deal. Like in the aforementioned episode Seagrams posted. Not once is it mentioned that the two of them are "female". No, the objection here is that they're former lovers from past lives. Compare it to The Outcast in TNG (which I also like to be fair). One is nuanced; the other slightly preachy.

Anyways, anyone bitching about "progressive" values in Trek is a moron. The only objection I have is Roddenberry's atheism and how it impacted the shows approach to religion. Deep Space Nine was all the better for its portrayal of religion.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 06:45:20 PM by Queen of Ice »
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benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #753 on: September 25, 2017, 12:27:38 AM »
Sulu is gay in the Abramsverse but even though it got pre-release hype it doesn't actually get anything in Beyond but a brief shot of his husband and their kid(s?) when they're having the party at the end of the film. They might kiss upon greeting each other, I'd have to look it up.

On reflection I imagine I'd probably say something like "the gays having kids part is what's going to anger people more" if we went back and someone mentioned it.

Neal McDonough's character Lieutenant Hawk in First Contact who eventually gets borgified was canonically gay (and at one point was mentioned in the script in an off-hand remark as he headed off to die on the deflector dish) and one of the books they did to flesh out side characters from the TNG movies made it official for the canon that post-Nemesis Trek novels were using. (The novels use a secondary-tier canon that until a film/TV series preempts it, it should be considered canon and they altered the way they produced the books so that everything fit into this neo canon bible, etc. It starts with Garak's A Stitch in Time book, though it doesn't have the labeling. Star Trek: Online has a separate post-Nemesis canon that the developers made up. Personally, I prefer the novels canon as being more like extra seasons of Trek, especially the DS9 stuff, and would if given a new Trek franchise set post-Nemesis consider those to be canon while Morrison style also saying that everything is canon until I counter it. Especially since I would want to import some stuff, races mainly, from DC's Trek comics among others.) His ex-partner is also one of the crew members on the Titan.

G The Resurrected

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Re: star trek
« Reply #754 on: September 25, 2017, 12:30:18 AM »
Production budget can't hide the fact this is shit. They should have aired both episodes instead of just one and handed this over to Netflix where it might be able to continue spending ass loads of money on a second season. Thankfully the Orville is around and by all accounts is more trek than this trek.

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #755 on: September 25, 2017, 12:35:02 AM »
The funny thing is that a lot of TOS's "social justice" moments get credited to Gene and his refusal to bow down to the network. But had nothing to do with him. He wasn't even really that progressive for the late 1960s. I mean, consider his views on women. :lol

But the most famous moment, Kirk and Uhura's interracial kiss, not only was well after Gene left the show, but it wasn't scripted or intended as a BIG JUSTICE MOMENT rather it was supposed to be about what they were being forced into doing by the powerful alien of the week, and Uhura was the only female left on the cast at that point.

It was iirc actually Shatner and Nichols who intended on the kiss in the shot after the director/suits said something and they realized its importance, but it's not in the original cut aired, instead it's the compromise shot they did where you can't see it clearly, it's hinted at but Kirk's hand or something covers it. I don't remember if the remasters uses a different cut, but one of the alternate cuts has been available for decades. It's probably actually the one most people have seen, only out of the episode context. :lol

Even HE'S WHITE ON THE RIGHT SIDE is from the third season, two seasons after Gene left. That's TOS at its most fun ARE YOU GETTING THE METAPHOR YET?!?!?

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #756 on: September 25, 2017, 12:37:52 AM »
looked up the Sulu clip from Beyond on the youtubes and this was the first result so you know i had to post it instead, especially when the guy says "i have no problem with the gays at all or lgbt, but my real problem here is this" and points to Sulu's kids :dead



i guess the greeting kiss got cut after all, probably has the Kirk reaction shot over that part

TVC15

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Re: star trek
« Reply #757 on: September 25, 2017, 12:46:21 AM »
This sucked. It’s not Star Trek.
serge

Human Snorenado

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Re: star trek
« Reply #758 on: September 25, 2017, 12:55:20 AM »
This sucked. It’s not Star Trek.

Yup. It's crap.

I understand that anyone in the position to make a Star Trek property these days has no clue how to make an actual Star Trek movie/show/whatever, but even just on the merits of "generic sci-fi show" this sucked. The production values were nice, a couple of the characters did interesting things, but overall this hits the unthinkable triple whammy of being a bad tv show while simultaneously shitting on what little good name Star Trek has left, AND being a cynical ploy to get people to sign up for CBS's streaming service. It's almost impressive in the terrible execution of it all.

I really don't understand why people find it so fucking hard to make a goddamn Star Trek show. Here's a revolutionary idea: just stick to what fucking works. Find a likable group of people, toss em on a fucking spaceship, task them to explore new and interesting worlds, and make it all kinda vaguely hope-y and aspirational. HOW FUCKING HARD IS THAT? IT IS GODDAMN PERFECTLY SUITED TO EPISODIC TV IN WAYS FEW SHOWS ARE, I MEAN FOR FUCKS SAKES YOU JUST HAVE TO HAVE THE CREW EXPLORE A NEW GODDAMN WORLD EACH WEEK OR IF THAT STARTS GETTING TOO EXPENSIVE DO CHARACTER BACKGROUND EPISODES ON THE FUCKING SHIP, THIS IS SO NOT GODDAMN HARD FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK.
yar

G The Resurrected

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Re: star trek
« Reply #759 on: September 25, 2017, 01:01:48 AM »
Let me introduce you to the Orville

It's a cheap Star Trek lite and is hitting on a lot of the cylinders. Someone with a lot of love for Star Trek has taken the time to make a better show for those of us that are looking for something like that.

TVC15

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Re: star trek
« Reply #760 on: September 25, 2017, 01:03:03 AM »
I’d probably vote Republican before I willingly watch a Seth Macfarlane show.
serge

Human Snorenado

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Re: star trek
« Reply #761 on: September 25, 2017, 01:19:27 AM »
Let me introduce you to the Orville

It's a cheap Star Trek lite and is hitting on a lot of the cylinders. Someone with a lot of love for Star Trek has taken the time to make a better show for those of us that are looking for something like that.

The Orville has been described to me as "TNG but with regular people and humor" which sounds like something I'd use in a torture sessoin if waterboarding wasn't cruel enough.
yar

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #762 on: September 25, 2017, 08:31:01 AM »
Just got through watching both episodes.

Overall I liked it quite a bit. The positives for me were the acting which were probably better than any other trek show in the past. The lead character and the Michelle Yeoh were both very compelling. The "look" and the special effects of the show were also very good. It looks slick. And I prefer the look and lighting and feel it has over that of the movies by quite a bit.

It also sets a nice narrative and setup to lead into the current season. The ending was rushed and a bit too melodramatic but I understand they needed to lay the table to get to where they needed to go for the rest of the season.

If I have one biggish complaint, maybe, it seems like because of the omni-present threat of war, they won't have the ability to do random style Trek episodes where they meet a new alien race or something to set up a lot of moral dilemmas like TNG and TOS did. I hope I'm wrong and they still find a way to do those kind of episodes and still be a serial show.

The first two episodes were darker than typical trek but that's fine. It still felt like trek in spirit for the most part although it doesn't really feel like TNG. Those two episodes definitely made me more interested to watch more. I just hope they also add in those old school boring sci-show elements that trek is known for and why I loved it in the past.

So I'm interested. I liked it. I hope they can balance the serial nature and drama elements with a bit more sci-fi plotting.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #763 on: September 25, 2017, 08:37:39 AM »
The Orville is fine. It's not amazing or anything but its fine. You may not dig its humour but its heart is in the right place and its basically doing a shameless riff on TNG.

If you are a hardcore sci-fi tv nerd, I guarantee you've watched and enjoyed worse over the course of your lifetime.

TVC15

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Re: star trek
« Reply #764 on: September 25, 2017, 09:00:13 AM »
Stoney Mason: Wrong on STD, Wrong on The Orville, Wrong for America
serge

Boogie

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Re: star trek
« Reply #765 on: September 25, 2017, 01:30:17 PM »
I didn't hate, but I came away from the first two episodes much closer to Snorenado and TVC's side of things than Stoney's.

I just came away from the pilot asking....why?  The show looks competently put together, but I'm looking for more of a reason for it to exist than "ooh, it looks slick."  Are we really just doing a serialized show about when the federation first almost went to war with the klingons?

I hate the redesign of the klingons.  Klingons themselves don't need to be redesigned.  The movies-through-TNG-DS9-etc look is iconic enough it shouldn't have been fucked with.  Redesigning their costumes and ships and shit is fine, but I just don't like the new design of the race itself.

And those Dutch angle shots.  Ugh.

In the pro column, just to be fair:  I really liked Michelle yeoh's captain, and the coward alien dude.
MMA

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #766 on: September 25, 2017, 02:30:03 PM »
I don't understand the need for prequels exactly? If the concern was on the fact they didn't want to alienate new people why not base it after Voyager? ??? Like, a hundred years after the fact?
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toku

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Re: star trek
« Reply #767 on: September 25, 2017, 03:13:51 PM »
Yeah prequels rarely work for me and star trek is definitely the franchise i don't think anybody wanted it from. Just go further into space guys come on it can't be that hard.

If you need a villain to drive the show you could do another changeling/hive mind race. This works because I don't think DS9 did enough with Odo/changeling stuff (yes I know they were running the dominion) while also being a bit related to what's going on in the world rn.

It being a prequel is the biggest offense to me. Just why, why would you do this. A franchise thats so much about the possibilities of the future, being our best selves...and you set in the past during the early days of a conflict that didn't really amount to much and ended anticlimactically.

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #768 on: September 25, 2017, 03:48:10 PM »
I don't understand the logic. Enterprise was the last Star Trek tv show. It was a prequel and bombed. So why do a follow up show that's also a prequel? ??? Is cbs stupid?

Not to mention Klingons are amazing and who tf wants to be at war with them again
IYKYK

Tasty

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Re: star trek
« Reply #769 on: September 25, 2017, 04:25:44 PM »
I don't understand the logic. Enterprise was the last Star Trek tv show. It was a prequel and bombed. So why do a follow up show that's also a prequel? ??? Is cbs stupid?

Because Abramsverse was a prequel and did really well.

Jenkem

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Re: star trek
« Reply #770 on: September 25, 2017, 05:10:42 PM »
watched 2 episodes... michelle yeoh was cool but now she ded so who gives a shit?

dunno how it is star trek, seemed like a big budget version of fucking stargate sg-1  :yuck

why they want me to pay them to watch this filth AND also receive ads? gtfo. of course smoothbrains love it and will pay for it because they are smoothbrains, so it will probably be successful. this is the future of star trek.

klingons look like california raisins mixed with mongoloids

 :donot

Boogie

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Re: star trek
« Reply #771 on: September 25, 2017, 05:39:21 PM »
I don't understand the logic. Enterprise was the last Star Trek tv show. It was a prequel and bombed. So why do a follow up show that's also a prequel? ??? Is cbs stupid?

Because Abramsverse was a prequel and did really well.

Unfortunately, I think that was about the extent of the thought process that went into the setting.
MMA

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Re: star trek
« Reply #772 on: September 25, 2017, 05:42:46 PM »
I don't understand the logic. Enterprise was the last Star Trek tv show. It was a prequel and bombed. So why do a follow up show that's also a prequel? ??? Is cbs stupid?

Because Abramsverse was a prequel and did really well.

Unfortunately, I think that was about the extent of the thought process that went into the setting.

And also, they probably looked at Enterprise vs. Abramsverse and came away with the conclusion "We should do a prequel, but only as close to TOS as we can get away with. Hey look, Sarek!!"

I also think the showrunners and/or producers were a bit cowardly and didn't want to address a post-DS9 Trek universe. Too much "unknown." Let's stay in our comfy TOS era safezone!

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #773 on: September 25, 2017, 05:57:31 PM »
This is starting to remind me of Suikoden. Disappointing prequel comes out after sequel with major plot/story changes, every story after that is a prequel or side game until the franchise itself dies out with no answers of the story after the most recent timeline story came out. Both have names that start with S too. I'm telling you, don't fall in love with any thing long running that starts with S: Star Wars, Star Trek, Suikoden, Shenmue, Sonic, Stargate...S is cursed I'm telling you.
IYKYK

Madrun Badrun

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Re: star trek
« Reply #774 on: September 25, 2017, 08:00:47 PM »
I liked it and really like the new klingons.  Also the klingon writing was pretty tight. 

It's a shame that this isn't an anthology though.  Don't care for a multiseason prequel again. 

Boogie

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Re: star trek
« Reply #775 on: September 25, 2017, 08:11:00 PM »
I'm glad it's airing on basic cable in Canada so
I don't have to hum and haw about another stupid subscription service for this .
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 08:19:24 PM by Boogie »
MMA

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #776 on: September 25, 2017, 10:18:22 PM »
When Bryan Fuller started this and it was basically just him and his staff figuring out ideas, it wasn't an always prequel, it was an anthology series that would jump around into eras of Trek we hadn't seen. Then Kurtzman and the rest got involved as he was bailing and it became Orci and Kurtzman's third movie pitch, a war against the Klingons. I'm pretty sure that's why Fuller ditched on the series as he didn't want to fight them over the prequel aspect and saw how it could still work before he realized they had shuffled him aside.

A prequel CAN work because there is a huge gap in the Trek timeline that is full of named events which don't have any fleshed out details but could be dramatic and interesting. The Tomed Incident for example is what took the Romulans from a powerful player in regional politics to shutting themselves up on the other side of the Neutral Zone until TNG, this is arguably the biggest untouched event in Trek lore since it made an entire Star Empire go hide for 80 years without the most powerful two neighbors knowing shit. The Enterprise-C's sacrifice at Khitomer (a last gasp of the Romulan Empire perhaps?) and the Federation-Cardassian War are two periods that leave the status quo we got for TNG and into DS9. There's also a war with the Tholians at some point. And some others, they're all mentioned as recent enough for TNG/DS9 crew to have experienced them.

And this makes sense if you take the Alpha Quadrant as we know it as TOS films end and TNG starts. In TOS the Romulans and Klingons were still far away and only at the end of TOS and in the movies did the Klingons start encroaching and battling with the Federation seriously over territory. While the Romulans had signed an alliance with the Klingons that at some point fell apart to such a disaster that they tried to wipe out the Klingons before hiding for 80 years. The Federation had expanded by the time TNG starts to reach Ferengi, Breen and Cardassian space. Which is opposite the Klingon and Romulan Empires on the maps.

Even though there's obvious parallels for the way the races act, if you take what Trek presents in terms of distance, the TOS takes place in Continential Europe, and TNG has them reaching quite deeply into Africa, Russia, the Middle East, etc. The Americas are the Delta and Gamma Quadrants. Or maybe the Americas are the Delta Quadrant and Far Asia is the Gamma Quadrant.

So that whole period between VI and TNG has the Federation expanding and expanding and causing tons of known conflicts with brand new races they're meeting. The seeming sudden collapse of one Empire and meeting another powerful one which a major war is fought with. Along with smaller events that are all termed wars by people who served. While the Klingon Empire is rebuilding from the events of VI, which the film speculates will take them decades. So the Federation was basically unchecked by the original TOS powers during this period except the Tholian War whatever that was.

Except they want to do prequels pre-Kirk for whatever reason. It would have worked with Enterprise but they got cold feet about limiting the scope of the ships travels, wasted so much time on the time travel bullshit and introduced the Xindi for no obvious reason when they had tons of races to use, namely the Romulans, and they had ideally setup the series as building to and ending with the Romulan War (which is a canon snarl) and the founding of the Federation. If the Xindi attack in season three is unknown, but the Enterprise heads out there to find out who's behind it and we get the first inklings of it being the Romulans, then season four introduces the Romulans as it did and also brings about the Vulcan Civil War as it did along with the first real teaming up of the founding Federation races, the show is using its most powerful thematic arcs to setup the conclusion of the series. They couldn't write this way because they rebooted the show twice instead. Then spent half their bonus season on AUGMENTS and then KLINGON AUGMENTS to explain away the forehead ridges rather than take what Jack noted was a potential storyline in the human/Earth backlash against aliens, especially after the Romulan attack ("unknown" still except to the viewer and maybe the Vulcans and maybe Archer finds out at the end of the storyline) and the Vulcan's constant bullshit for years.

Discovery makes zero sense taking place in the ten years before TOS, which we've already seen! The Cage! And TOS never indicated there was a major war with the Klingons that reshaped their entire society, only the Romulans. That's why the crew knows how to handle the Klingons in every episode they meet up, even has half-friendly ones like Tribbles, but the Romulan episodes are cloaked in guessing and spycraft. It suggested the Klingons as a race the Federation had scuffles with, but were generally handled, while the Romulans were an open-ended threat. The first episode we meet with the Klingons (Errand of Mercy) is setup with the premise that things have gotten so bad recently that they may have to actually go to war with the Klingons but in the end even with it forced on them they sign a peace treaty, which holds. Never again are the two at open war until DS9. Every instance of skirmish is either a setup ("Day of the Dove") or a rogue Klingon (III, V and VI...with Klaa notably being chastised for attacking the Enterprise for his own ends and VI being an outright conspiracy between all kinds of forces...III also was originally supposed to be the Romulans going after Genesis) compare to the Romulans or even the Gorn or Tholians who are never nothing but hostile and on the verge of total war with the Federation. With the Romulans backing down regularly, especially in TNG, because they're constantly probing rather than looking for an actual war.

Fuller's original pitch would have worked far better in terms of being what Trek needs in terms of a show that's full of familiar stuff, a show that has seralized seasons and a show that can also try new things for Trek.
Quote
When Fuller first met with CBS about the series, the company did not have a plan for what the new show would be. He proposed an anthology series with each season being a standalone, serialized show set in a different era, beginning with a prequel to the original series, then stories set during the original series, during Star Trek: The Next Generation, and then "beyond to a time in Trek that's never been seen before". Fuller compared this to what American Horror Story did for horror, and described the proposal as a platform for "a universe of Trek shows". However, CBS told Fuller to just start with a single serialized show and see how that performs first, and he began further developing the concept of a prequel to the original series.
This would have allowed you to do something like say a season where the Federation first meets the Cardassians, who are arguably the most un-Federation/human like race, and it descends into war. Throw in some mentions about a Chief O'Brien or even cast somebody to be a young him and that's all the connections you need, the rest you can do all new, get your war story (one which clearly was intense enough that it affected people we saw on TNG) and shit.

They could setup seasons based around where TNG/DS9 only spent a few episodes, the contingency side of the Federation. Especially in the wake of the Romulans reappearance in TNG. ESPECIALLY in the wake of the Borg attack and then the discovery of the Dominion. Section 31 operations paired with a ship that has plausible deniability but the captain is unsure about this all, and they could have the debate DS9 never let them (because they were bringing the series arc to a close) regarding how much of this is shattering Federation ideals. And how much has been how the Federation has always operated.

What about seasons where we go back to all those places the Enterprise fucked up and then warped away from? We constantly heard about how this or that race was applying for the Federation but then we'd find out their SECRET and Picard would lecture them and warp away. There's all sorts of stuff on both ends of that happening. Especially when they reveal themselves to lesser races and Picard becomes a god or whatever. Set a season around the people who have to clean up those messes or go through all the setup and planning. Even when they got a movie to do this with they fucked it up. If you take what we know from Insurrection it's clear it's not the first time the Federation has relocated races. Explore that.

You can do all of this in prequels. It's arguably the easier way to do it and better way, Enterprise originally set its first season date so it would be hemmed in by the Romulan War and Founding of the Federation which were two set in stone Trek dates. Only they had no idea how to fill the time to get there and were clearly not interested in really exploring the simplicity of the concept or the notions of exploring and first contacts. Thus why we have Klingons in the first episode plus the announcement of a massive TEMPORAL COLD WAR THAT WILL CHANGE EVERYTHING AND IS THE MOST IMPORTANT oh never mind look they're space Nazi's bye.
Quote
Kurtzman later added that the Federation-Klingon War story arc of the first season would not continue in a second season, saying "each season needs to be about a different thing".[78] However, he was not interested in a full anthology series because "I wouldn't necessarily want to throw [the characters] away at the end of the season for a new show",[79] and instead felt that the aftereffects of the first season would be felt moving forward: "The results of the war are going to allow for a lot of new storytelling that will be the result of everything that happens and the people that are left behind; the casualties, the things that have grown in Starfleet as a result of the war. That's what we'll inherit in the second season."

By the end of August, Berg and Harberts had developed a "road map" for a second season, and "the beginnings of one" for a third. It was also revealed that an average episode of the first season had ultimately cost US$8–8.5 million, making it one of the most expensive series ever alongside successful shows like Game of Thrones and Westworld, but also infamous failures such as Marco Polo and The Get Down. This increase in budget outgrew the original Netflix deal, but CBS still considered the series to be paid for already due to the number of new All Access subscribers that the show was expected to draw.
Quote
"The defining factor of Roddenberry's vision is the optimistic view of the future ... Once you lose that, you lose the essence of what Star Trek is. That being said…we live in very different times. Every day we look at the news and it is hard. It is hard to see what we see. I think now more than ever Trek is needed as a reminder of what we can be and the best of who we can be. Star Trek has always been a mirror to the time it reflected and [the topical question now] is how do you preserve and protect what Starfleet is in the weight of a challenge like war and the things that have to be done in war. [That] is a very interesting and dramatic problem."
—Executive producer Alex Kurtzman on the balance between classic Star Trek and new elements in Discovery
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 10:25:11 PM by benjipwns »

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #777 on: September 25, 2017, 10:28:57 PM »
 :badass

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #778 on: September 25, 2017, 11:05:40 PM »
Jesus Benji sure does know his Star Trek.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 11:12:20 PM by Queen of Ice »
IYKYK

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #779 on: September 25, 2017, 11:41:06 PM »
I almost looked up how to spell the race from the DS9 episode where Odo has to kill another Founder who's posing as an ambassador or something so he doesn't start a war and it's revealed they've already infiltrated all the Alpha Quadrant powers. Then I realized nobody would give a shit.

Tsenkski?
Tsenthski?
Tzenthzki?

Anyway, that's yet another of the races that TNG and DS9 mention at least one war having happened with them in the not too distant past. The period between VI and TNG was clearly not at all peaceful despite both the Klingons and Romulans being mostly removed from the board as adversaries to the Federation's expansionist policies.

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Tzenkethi
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