THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 12:13:59 AM

Title: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 12:13:59 AM
I've always wanted to be bilingual. I've switched from French to Spanish to German, even Chinese as second language interests. I even took three years of Spanish in Middle School/High School and my final semester in Spanish III, my grades were so good I was able to exempt the final exam. I don't remember a lick.

But all these years there's been one language I've wanted to learn: Japanese. Back in the 2000's Japanese language classes were scarce so I never was able to make the commitment because in my mind classes = how you learn a language. Oh, how wrong I was. So, upon receiving Ore no Ryouri from Don Flamenco and trying it out, I decided I was tired of it. I like games. A lot. I like Japanese games. A lot. But Japanese games make it to English land less and less frequently these days due to waning popularity and sales. I'm sick of being locked out of content I want to play and experience just because of language barrier. So I said fuck it, I'm learning Japanese.

Currently doing self study for Japanese. It's fun. I know very few words, but I've knocked out hiragana tonight and tomorrow I'm starting on katakana. I figure I should be doing phrases/vocab and kanji by July. My goal is to learn the core 2000-2500 kanji before the end of the year, and I think I can do it.

I've found self study to be far more rewarding than taking language classes. In the past, I took Spanish, and I hated it because it was mostly about particles and verbs and usage and technicalities no one who learned the language through their childhood learned. So right now, I'm going with the flow with Japanese rather than stressing grammar. I'm watching Japanese video game videos on youtube, and listening to Japanese songs, and going full on weeaboo but it's really been worth it so far in that, last week, when I just started doing this, I forgot about all I learned about Japanese from whatever classes I took in the past (not very much to be true, since it's not widely available like Spanish). But this week, I'm looking at dialogue via Japanese subtitles in these videos and getting an adrenaline rush as I'm able to follow (very small) portions of dialogue after merely a weeks time.

It's something no language class has ever managed to help me do: find learning a language fun.

Currently, I'm applying the AJATT (All Japanese All The Time) method (read about it here: http://www.everydaylanguagelearner.com/2012/01/19/ajatt-most-inspirational-language-blogger-out-there/) in that I'm living Japanese language through immersion; I've constantly got headphones on, listening to Japanese music, podcasts, news, I'm watching Japanese dramas to help with language comprehension, doing the srs flashcard method for learning kana by way of the program Anki. It really isn't hard and I've benefited from my limited exposure already.

One thing I was telling Aeana and Oscar while we were discussing vocab and stuff was that I feel like a toddler. I really do.

I'm singing Mary Had a Little Lamb in Japanese dammit. Fuck. I know what sheep means in Japanese! :rock

Let's all say fuck it and learn a language!
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Atramental on May 31, 2013, 12:24:17 AM
I'm thinking about picking up Spanish again.

My area has an ever increasing hispanic community and one of the companies I'm working for as a designer is a hispanic marketing firm so it couldn't hurt to know some more español.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 31, 2013, 12:25:00 AM
I've always wanted to speak Cockney
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 12:29:14 AM
One of my favorite things about this process has been completely dumping my English oriented music and searching the gutters of the internet to find Japanese music that fits my taste.

And it has been pretty damn fun. I've found about 20-30 artists/bands of varying genres (electronic mostly, rap, rock, pop, folk).

My favorite find so far has been Capsule an electronic duo. They go between genres, sometimes doing straight Nu Jazz, then they'll do some fucking awesome vocal house. They're awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4h8m74pyC8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdUG69QLY04


Memorizing the lyrics and applying the correct kana in my head to the lyrics is an amazing feeling. I'm trying to not translate into English and it's working.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: lennedsay on May 31, 2013, 12:31:27 AM
I'm teaching the baby a little bit of ASL. Which means I have to learn ASL.

She has all these loud, obnoxious toys that speak/sing Spanish and English, so I keep finding myself singing the ABCs to her in Spanish. I took more German than Spanish in school, so I'll probably teach her some basics eventually.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Yeti on May 31, 2013, 12:41:06 AM
I can speak some basick French because of high school. I would like to know speak Spanish or Arabic so I could know what my barbers are saying to each other when they cut my hair.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 12:41:35 AM
I want to relearn Spanish for the benefit, but I'm stuck between Spanish and Chinese. Objectively, both will be very important skills to have 10 years down the road.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 31, 2013, 12:47:44 AM
I'd go with Spanish first since it's probably much easier to learn than Chinese

You could probably become almost fluent in a year with decent effort
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 12:49:49 AM
do you even listen to Boris?

:beli

Just found out about them the other day!  :mynicca
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mandark on May 31, 2013, 12:55:55 AM
Most Himuro thread ever!
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Atramental on May 31, 2013, 01:00:37 AM
¡Chupa mis huevos, gringos! :pacspit

Déjame ver tu coño.  :shaq

Oh yeah. I'm gonna go far with this stuff.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Momo on May 31, 2013, 01:07:22 AM
Haha Bilingual. I'm fluent in 2 languages, Intermediate in 1 and novice (can get to a bar and get my dick sucked) in 5
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Momo on May 31, 2013, 01:08:46 AM
Upgraded novice to 5 because I understand German, Dutch and Flemish Belgian.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Shaka Khan on May 31, 2013, 01:08:47 AM
Haha Bilingual. I'm fluent in 2 languages, Intermediate in 1 and novice (can get to a bar and get my dick sucked) in 5

Which one of the 4 is subtitle-taught Japanese?
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 01:18:35 AM
Haha Bilingual. I'm fluent in 2 languages, Intermediate in 1 and novice (can get to a bar and get my dick sucked) in 5

 :what
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Human Snorenado on May 31, 2013, 01:23:55 AM
I plan on getting a bunch of Rosetta stone Spanish shit and learning it before I start earnestly looking for a real job in about a year.  I figure it can only help my chances, and I do have a friend that runs a law firm that specializes in immigration stuff who has said he'd be willing to take me on as a bookkeeper/financial consultant for their clients if I learned Spanish.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Momo on May 31, 2013, 01:25:58 AM
Haha Bilingual. I'm fluent in 2 languages, Intermediate in 1 and novice (can get to a bar and get my dick sucked) in 5

Which one of the 4 is subtitle-taught Japanese?
Intermediate, as I actually attended Japanese classes/was a scanlator and did a bunch of self learning tapes.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Momo on May 31, 2013, 01:26:44 AM
Haha Bilingual. I'm fluent in 2 languages, Intermediate in 1 and novice (can get to a bar and get my dick sucked) in 5

 :what
Unlike EviLore I don't have to grab ass to gauge interest, I can simply ask :smug
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Momo on May 31, 2013, 01:27:50 AM
Also I have Korean heritage so I know when I'm being scolded at in Korean.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 01:32:05 AM
Post pics Momo.

Ripping audio from video should be a lot simpler.

One thing i've found very helpful so far is watching live action drama in the target language with English subtitles the first time to see what's going on and hear the dialogue with a translated script. Then I watch it without subtitles to pick up new things. Then I rip the audio, and after my practice for the day, I acquire the subtitles in Japanese to learn new words. This is helpful because it helps me flex my brain a bit and apply the characters I just learned into an actual setting, which helps with memory, and increases vocab. After looking at the script, before I leave for work I'll put the audio of the drama on my phone, and listen to it during work hours and pick up new things.

Now that I'm done with hiragana, this process will be even easier.

Best way to learn a language is to immerse yourself in it. Everything else is a waste of time.

That's what I've been doing actually. Since I don't live in Japan I'm creating my own mini Japan by listening to podcasts, news, music, tv in Japanese and reading Japanese websites even though I don't always know what they're talking about. You'll always get something new out of it.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Momo on May 31, 2013, 01:36:02 AM
My genealogy is pretty fucked Himumumu. English, Scot, Korean, Persian/North African. I'm like nature's little experiment lol. Eh I'm not posting pics, it always causes drama so bleh.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Momo on May 31, 2013, 01:41:22 AM
A very good friend of mine from Tokyo came to visit me a couple of years ago, we made a deal to speak Japanese one day and English the next (helping each other) she commented my japanese is pretty good, but I really cant trust that since the japanese are too polite to actually say 'you suck' :lol

I figure i'm decent at it since she only really corrected me a handful of times and in most cases it was pronunciation not incorrect sentence structure/word usage. 
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on May 31, 2013, 01:59:17 AM
Man id always wanted to learn a 4th language but I just dont have the patience.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 02:05:18 AM
Three seems ideal.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on May 31, 2013, 02:12:01 AM
Also learning a language is not for old folks, the mind just isnt as receptive.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 02:16:36 AM
That's bullshit.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on May 31, 2013, 02:29:49 AM
Yeah its not the same when youre old, sure you can learn but it wont be the same.

Also I dont think you can be really fluent without being around people that speak that language often.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Rufus on May 31, 2013, 04:35:05 AM
It's vital to talk to native speakers a few times, just to make sure, but I think you can become fluent without. I've had teachers ask me if I'd spent time in Britain because of my accent and fluency, even though I've never been there, or any English-speaking country. Having access to an endless stream of anglophone media makes up for a lot of live practice, at least in my experience. Internet. :bow2

I'm fairly content with German and English myself. Although I've always wanted to re-acquaint myself with my other native language (Yugoslavian/Serbo-Croatian/Bosnian, whatever you want to call it) eventually, at least enough to hold a regular conversation. I'm half-way there because I can still understand it fairly well, but my vocabulary is limited to that of a 6-year-old and I have a lot of difficulty forming complex sentences. The tiny bit of shame I feel for forgetting what little heritage I have hasn't been enough of a motivator. I did try to read some Croatian and Bosnian newspapers and boy, oh boy, does it show that I never had any formal education in Bosnian. It's an odd feeling to have to sound out words you already know. :lol
The languages I've learned in school and university are more enticing (French, Spanish, Swedish), but I'm not motivated enough to re-learn or expand my knowledge of them.

Upgraded novice to 5 because I understand German, Dutch and Flemish Belgian.
So German, Dutch and other Dutch. :lol
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: chronovore on May 31, 2013, 07:02:27 AM
I love this joke:
If you speak two languages, you're bilingual.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
If you speak three languages, you're trilingual.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
If you speak one language, you're American.
[close]
[close]

I'm happy that I learned this much Japanese, but I lost all my Spanish. It's like the Japanese pushed out the Spanish, and even when I can remember a Spanish verb, I conjugate it into Japanese.  :'(

I'm teaching the baby a little bit of ASL. Which means I have to learn ASL.

She has all these loud, obnoxious toys that speak/sing Spanish and English, so I keep finding myself singing the ABCs to her in Spanish. I took more German than Spanish in school, so I'll probably teach her some basics eventually.

It's great that you're going for gestural communication with your child, but have you considered that ASL itself is too complex for babies?

We used a book, but what it got down to is using whatever simple gestures you baby understands to communicate consistently and free from frustration.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: lennedsay on May 31, 2013, 07:20:01 AM
I thought that too, but most of the words she would use are pretty easy to sign, and somewhat literal. I picked up a book specifically for babies, and for only one or two words the book gives an alternative because the ASL version is hard for babies to sign correctly. Babies will try to sign it but its so complex that the parents don't pick up what is being said. It was nice that they gave alternatives though rather than have the "No this is ASL so you have to do it this way because its right" mentality. I told my husband I really don't care as long as we can understand her and we're all consistent.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Momo on May 31, 2013, 08:26:57 AM
So German, Dutch and other Dutch. :lol
Still counts :smug
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Reb on May 31, 2013, 09:59:13 AM
So German, Dutch and other Dutch. :lol
Still counts :smug

Nah, Flemish doesn't count.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on May 31, 2013, 10:50:02 AM
Flemish really doesn't count, it's a dialect at best.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Eric P on May 31, 2013, 11:06:38 AM
i and a group of friends are currently doing duolingo.com and learning spanish together

it's pretty cool.  it's a gamification of language learning to promote continuous use and thus continuous improvement
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 11:28:02 AM
Rufus I've found nicovideo.jp and 2ch to be solid with interacting with Japanese people in a virtual space, albeit limited due to language barrier and I'm just a beginner so I don't know what's going on 95% of the time. But I've been tying to find more "serious" non nerd Japanese online communities.

Yeah using Japanese media as a learning tool will help me learn faster and it is amazing, the types of tools we have at our disposal these days. I don't expect to be fluent in 18 months like the guy who made AJATT but I definitely think I could get to an advanced level in 4 years of self study and media consumption. Honestly the entire reason I started doing this was to expand on one of my hobbies (vidya) so even if I don't get to n1 level if I can play Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Nobunaga's Ambition games or Ryu Ga Gotoku Kenzan without looking up words I will consider this a success.

My ultimate goal though is to read A Song of Ice and Fire and a Murakami novel in Japanese.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 12:11:09 PM
Alright, got my tools back home. I plan on starting Remembering the Kana tonight. I'll be able to knock it out in six hours, then I'll review what I learned in Anki.

Remembering the Kana by James Heisig

http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kana-Reading-Japanese-Syllabaries/dp/0824831640/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218312342&sr=8-1

From my limited time with the Remembering the Kana (just glancing through the book), the thing is helpful in that it explains the origins of and the shape of each Kana in a funny and meaningful way. Both kana are three hours each.

If you're a beginner like me, and you're interested in Japanese I suggest start with this. I should have started with this last week, it would have been faster.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Steve Contra on May 31, 2013, 12:34:41 PM
Already bilingual :yeshrug
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 31, 2013, 12:48:59 PM
always wanted to learn Spanish, although I got a C in my first and only Spanish class years ago. I'm thinking Hispanic women are more apt to date black men who speak Spanish, so I'll try again.
Title: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: T-Short on May 31, 2013, 05:57:22 PM
I'd consider myself to be fluent in english, I like to switch accents as well. I also speak/understand brazilian portuguese fairly well, and am on sort of a beginner level of japanese.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: ManaByte on May 31, 2013, 05:58:31 PM
http://duolingo.com/

The mobile app is really good too.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 07:40:55 PM
Duolingo mobile app is out for android now. They just sent me an email about it today.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Polari on May 31, 2013, 08:08:43 PM
I tried to learn French a couple of times but lost interest. Anyone on Duolingo should add me (same name). Maybe the shame of others seeing my lack of progress will motivate me. I doubt it though.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Joe Molotov on May 31, 2013, 08:15:05 PM
How long have you been studying Japanese, Himu? I've been thinking about starting myself during these slow summer months, so I can let my weeaboo flag fly.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 09:22:58 PM
Eh. I've been on and off with it for about ten years but last week I got more serious about taking steps to learn it. I'll supply you with material when I get home. Self study is mad fun so far.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: ManaByte on May 31, 2013, 09:24:50 PM
I'm on Duolingo as ManaByte. Just working on Spanish as it's pretty much required in my area to even order from the McDonald's drive thru these days.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 09:30:51 PM
Good luck! Duolingo is a good site. Not for me or how I learn but it is good and it is free.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 10:09:47 PM
Joe I just finished the hiragana section of Heisig's Remembering The Kana in under three hours. I remember most of them. Consider there are 46 characters and I did it all with amazing memory retention in three hours. Of course I've been studying hira for a week but there are many I've struggled with all week now that are clear as day. Start with Remembering the Kana.

Also got a children's story book at half priced books. I'm too tired for katakana tonight so I'll start doing vocab when I get home and make that resource write up.

The spoils of my notes:

(http://i.imgur.com/ISX5Eo2.jpg)

I messed up on my song. :lol it is ra not ru.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Trent Dole on May 31, 2013, 10:44:00 PM
I really should at least learn katakana already so I can read the damn item names in PSO2 since I've been playing for nearly a year now. :-[
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on May 31, 2013, 11:46:24 PM
Alright, Joe.

If you're interested in Japanese, here are some resources. Some of you guys not learning Japanese may also want to read it because some suggestions carry over for anyone trying to learn a language, particularly on the srs section.

1. Get Heisig's Remembering the Kana

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rc7uoVdcL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

You can get a copy from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kana-The-Hiragana-Katakana/dp/4889960724/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1370056128&sr=8-2&keywords=remembering+the+kana

Do hiragana first, then katakana. You can knock this book out in 6 hours for all 92 characters. You can do this in a day, or two days with each part separated for individual days, whatever.

2. Look into study methods.

Currently the current top study method for Japanese self study is srs.

Here's information on what SRS is:

http://www.fluentin3months.com/spaced-repetition/

Basically, it's a memory retaining system for long term memory. Writing a bunch of stuff repeatedly has been said to not only be boring, but not really helpful in terms of maintaining long memory. SRS is a system where you truthfully tell the program how well you know the word, sentence, or whatever and it structures itself to flash the word again right when you're going to forget it to help increase memory.

There are a bunch of srs programs, but the most popular is by far Anki which is what I use. With Anki you can make flashcard decks or download premade decks (which is what I do). Anki supports a bunch of languages for learning ranging from Japanese to Spanish to Arabic to whatever. Just go here:

https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks/

There is even an Anki phone app, so you can sync your progress on the go, get home, and continue and vice versa. 

In order to make srs work, you have to do this every day. But it's easy enough to do so.

I suggest you do Remembering the Kana and then do Anki decks to review what you've learned rather than learning straight from Anki.

Here is my current Anki. I have two decks (one is a dud and it own't let me delete it):

(http://i.imgur.com/AmmMSGl.jpg)

Each day, depending on how much I studied the day prior, Anki gives me a review time. I have it set to learn 10 new cards a day, so today I'm going to review the ones i've have trouble with and new ones. Since I'm done with Hiragana, I'm setting it to add no new cards today so I can review old material.

(http://i.imgur.com/FA5BCwc.jpg)

It first said sore (それ) in Japanese. I had to hear it without cue. Hence the "listen" note. After that I pressed space and it told me what the definition for sore is. This is a new word for me, but it's easy to remember so I'm going to truthfully click Good which will review sore in 10 minutes, to retain the memory. Tomorrow I'll review sore again and probably tell it to bring it up in a few days time.

Other methods of study: children's books and songs, read manga (shounen and shoujo have mostly kana and any kanji will have furigana - kana marks above the kanji), video games with kana (Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy menus, Chrono Trigger, usually family friendly stuff), Japanese drama (get a Crunchyroll account and watch Daterame Hero plz). Any new words you gain from studying, put in Anki for later review. What about entire sentences? Put that shit into Anki.

Scour youtube for Japanese nursery rhymes. Things like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNHitUDJ1zo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zxuy6eojZY

Memorize them and understand them. Mine them for vocab.

3. Use srs to study vocab and phrases at a beginner level.

4. Obtain a Kanji poster at http://www.kanjiposter.com/

(http://www.kanjiposter.com/images/single.png)

5. Get Remembering the Kanji vol 1 by Heisig. With daily practice of 10 kanji a day you can get to 2000 kanji in six months. The average Japanese HS grad knows 2000 kanji. These are mostly taught in school and are the general use kanji.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41F2sSyJ9pL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Volume-Complete-Characters/dp/0824835921/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370057796&sr=8-1&keywords=remembering+the+kanji

6. Download an Anki heisig RTK1 deck to review daily while doing RTK.

Useful sites:

- Anki https://ankiweb.net/study/ Make an account, that is required to sync between devices.

- All Japanese All The Time - the author employs an immersion method of learning Japanese without living in Japan while doing everything I just wrote. He became fluent in Japanese in 18 months without visiting Japan. When he did visit Japan his Japanese was so good he was hired as a software developer. www.alljapaneseallthetime.com It is among the more controversial ways to learn Japanese on the internet and it is kinda extreme. Read the link on the first post to get an idea of what to expect as the ajatt site is disorganized and hard to navigate.

- Kohii - fantastic community for fellow Japanese learners with guides and stuff. http://kanji.koohii.com/

- Crunchyroll - Watch jdramas with Enh subs on first to know what's going on in the story. Then watch without subs to see what you can gain from it. Rip the audio via Audacity (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/about/) and put it on your mp3 player/phone. This is a part of AJATT immersion training. Going for a walk? Put on your jdrama rip or jmusic. Studying in Anki? Throw on jmusic. In bed relaxing? Put on the jdrama and see if you can make out new stuff with your new vocab. www.crunchyroll.com An all access pass costs 11 bucks. Worth it. I'm watching Daterame Hero, and it owns. Maybe even download Japanese subs and see if you gain new insight in grammar and structure and vocab from that.

Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Yeti on May 31, 2013, 11:56:49 PM
http://www.memrise.com/ (http://www.memrise.com/) looked like it might be a good site if you are just starting off
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 01, 2013, 12:11:49 AM
I didn't realize memrise had Japanese. Nice. :obama Still suggest going with Remember the Kana though. I don't trust any Learn Japanese source that uses romaaji (latin version of japanese words) for a long period. I want to learn Japanese, not learn Latin translated Japanese.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 01, 2013, 12:21:21 AM
Japanese seems like it would be hard as fuck to learn as a second language, assuming you aren't in Japan. One day I'm just gonna man up and learn Spanish, which seems easier (even though I nearly failed it back in the day)
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Joe Molotov on June 01, 2013, 12:36:20 AM
Thanks Himu, I'll check this out (then probably give up after a week, but maybe not).
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Atramental on June 01, 2013, 12:52:39 AM
Conjugations...  :noah
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 01, 2013, 01:40:00 AM
Holy shit that vocabulary/phrase deck. :noah

I am writing sentences in Japanese. :noah

I checked out memrise's Japanese lessons and it uses Romaaji.  :-X :yuck
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on June 01, 2013, 06:06:50 AM
When you guys talk about learning Spanish, is this Spanish or Latin American Spanish?
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Rufus on June 01, 2013, 06:14:30 AM
The Americans will be better served with Mexican Spanish of course.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Pinche cabrón!
[close]
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 01, 2013, 04:24:28 PM
http://hukumusume.com/douwa/betu/index.html

Japanese children stories with audio. I know what I'm doing tonight once I read Remembering the Kana and take my walk!

On a happy note, the corresponding japansepod101 thread where it was linked had someone type thank you in Japanese and I read it in five seconds! I'm on my way! :)
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mr. Gundam on June 01, 2013, 05:32:11 PM
I took four years of Japanese in high school from 95-99. I can read hiragana/katakana and understand a decent amountl of what I read, ask for basic directions, order in a restaurant, watch shows and play games with basic verbal understanding, but kanji has always kicked my ass and carrying on a conversation with a native speaker is pretty tough (I did get stuck in a little town outside Tokyo and managed to stumble around with my weak ass Nihongo skills and had an old man get me on the right train once). At this point, moving to Japan for the total immersion experience is the only way I'll be able to get any better. And I don't see that happening. Oh well.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: chronovore on June 02, 2013, 12:31:33 AM
I took four years of Japanese in high school from 95-99. I can read hiragana/katakana and understand a decent amountl of what I read, ask for basic directions, order in a restaurant, watch shows and play games with basic verbal understanding, but kanji has always kicked my ass and carrying on a conversation with a native speaker is pretty tough (I did get stuck in a little town outside Tokyo and managed to stumble around with my weak ass Nihongo skills and had an old man get me on the right train once). At this point, moving to Japan for the total immersion experience is the only way I'll be able to get any better. And I don't see that happening. Oh well.

I had two quarters of Japanese at a college. It was annoying. All the 2nd and 3rd gen kitchen-Japanese speaking nikkei being mollycoddled by the teacher when they learn what their name meant, and a bunch of non-Japanese struggling to conjugate basic verbs. The teachers were not interested in spreading the language past the spoor of desiderata.

The opposite happened in Japan after I arrived; even the smallest effort to speak was rewarded, and the only American Japanese guy I knew here was frequently inconvenienced when his language skills weren't perfect.

What progress I have made in Japanese can be attributed to the patient of my hosts in Japan.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: DCharlieJP on June 02, 2013, 01:06:44 AM
I've been hitting japanese with private lessons from my father in law - i've since had two interviews for jobs at Japanese firms, one of which were preparing an offer before i declined so i'm headed in the right direction.

I'm under no delusion though, my Japanese is still pretty awful but it's took an upturn.

The biggest thing that i'm enjoying is having someone teach me how to write with a bit less of a cack hand so now everything looks a bit more stylish rather than the robotic stensil laughable shitfest it was.
I'm hoping to get in on a job where i am forced to use Japanese day in day out so i can add Japanese to my abilities before i am way too old to learn anything else.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 02, 2013, 02:51:26 AM
Did Katakana tonight. God that shit is hard. I want to know both kanas as well as the English alphabet by half way through June. I think a week of reading  and anki will help me achieve that.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 02, 2013, 03:02:35 AM
Good blog post on finding good reading materials for beginner Japanese speakers.

http://www.tofugu.com/2012/08/28/japanese-reading-practice-for-beginners/
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mr. Gundam on June 02, 2013, 12:20:21 PM
Katakana isn't too hard, but I do remember it being a big paradigm shift after getting hiragana down pat. It's super useful, though. Especially if you ever visit Japan. Being able to read katakana really helps navigate around the big cities.

The opposite happened in Japan after I arrived; even the smallest effort to speak was rewarded, and the only American Japanese guy I knew here was frequently inconvenienced when his language skills weren't perfect.

What progress I have made in Japanese can be attributed to the patient of my hosts in Japan.

It's pretty amazing how forgiving Japanese people are to foreigners like myself who try their best but don't mean to butcher the language. On our honeymoon Em and I went to dinner at this little tempura restaurant (ie. one table for two and a bar with three seats) in Yanaka run by a husband and wife in their 70s. He spoke probably two or three sentences of English, so I did my best to speak with him in Japanese. Once I was able to explain that we just got married and were on our honeymoon, they started bringing out the expensive watermelons (for free) and celebrated with us. Also helped when I explained to him that Em doesn't like shrimp. He just laughed. I still can't believe just how patient and friendly he and his wife were.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Robo on June 02, 2013, 12:52:05 PM
el hombre come una manzana  :mynicca
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mr. Gundam on June 02, 2013, 01:03:18 PM
Himu, you made flashcards, right? Flash cards/drill and kill is what got me to memorize both hiragana and katakana.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 02, 2013, 01:34:58 PM
Yeap. I have flash cards on my phone and on my computer. They're helping. I think it'll take 2-3 weeks of consistent study to nail them completely. I honestly just want to start working on vocab, but I see I got ahead of myself a bit.

I'm telling myself I should give myself a break for today because yesterday, between doing Remembering the Kana (katakana section), studying three anki decks, and trying to decipher native children's stories material I probably "studied" for 10 hours yesterday. But no surrender! Kana first, vocab second, sentences last! I will reward myself with Game of Thrones and Mad Men.

ギーム の おい!!!

Gundam, what makes katakana a challenge are all the similar characters.

シツ ソ ソ  are the best examples of this.

That's without mentioning フスヌラヲクタワウ.

Thankfully my learning method is imaginative memory and mnemonics rather than pure brute repetition and memorization. Makes things a lottttt easier.

ラ is ra because the keyword is RAmen! See? The horizontal slash above the ramen noodle cup is the top just like a ramen cup!

(http://tokyo5.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/cup-noodles.jpg)

ヌ is nu because the keyword is Noodle! See? The noodle is sticking out of the bowl!

フ is a fu because the keyword is FOOd bowl! See? It looks like a half a bowl of food! Draw the other half and you'll make a full bowl!

Very fun.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 02, 2013, 02:10:27 PM
Speaking of mnemonics, Gundam you say you struggle with kanji? Have you done Remembering the Kanji?

Sample from a page:

(http://i.imgur.com/zreiM2D.jpg)
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 04, 2013, 02:33:04 AM
Jesus Christ this shit is so fascinating.

http://thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15495

Halfway done with fully memorizing kana and I cannot WAIT to get to kanji. :noah
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 13, 2013, 04:49:01 AM
Thought I'd update. I've mastered kana, I think. I can automatically tell what a kana is just by looking at it and not thinking it in English now. Pretty impressed with the results.

I'm now concentrating on learning phrases, beginniner vocab, accent, listening comprehension, and talking. I've been doing a language learning technique called "shadowing" for the past week and a half to learn to speak Japanese rather than read it and I'm getting very good results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdheWK7u11w

In short, you take a piece of audio and a original language transcript. You "blind shadow" for a couple of days by repeating every thing they say, verbatim,   until memorized. You do this while walking to help keep the brain in an 'active' state for memory retention. I do it while on a daily walk. You memorize the phrases, then later, you reference the original audio with a transcript and translation to know exactly what they're saying. You already know the words, now you after reading it, you understand the grammar and vocabulary.

It's a very unique and helpful thing for learning to speak a language.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Rufus on June 13, 2013, 07:03:54 AM
Wah, mean.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 20, 2013, 09:54:26 PM
Really feel I'm getting closer to my goal after only a month. :) I can look at Dragon Quest pictures and discern dialogue just through the kana. I may not know what all the words mean but I can read what they're saying. Doing this gives lots of confidence.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: nudemacusers on June 20, 2013, 09:55:12 PM
I want to learn french. and uguu.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on July 30, 2013, 03:45:48 PM
I love kanji.

Read the word 劇場 while doing daily Japanese practice without a hint. Just read it straight. Feels so good knocking the kanji out. Apparently it's げきじょう, which is a theatre. The cool part about learning kanji is learning what the kanji pictographs mean, before learning the actual word. Like 劇 is a drama whereas a 場 is basically a place, or a place where people greet for formal activities. Put two and two together, and you get a theater.

Currently at 100 kanji memorized, about 500 vocab/phrases memorized.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Polari on September 02, 2013, 09:08:33 PM
Back on Duolingo the last couple of days. Adding all those gaffers was a good idea, I feel like Rocky climbing those steps or some shit every time I overtake one of them on the list.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Polari on September 02, 2013, 09:14:39 PM
Also Japanese looks waaaaaay too hard brehs. I've been realising just how long it would take me if I was actually gonna figure out all this French shit. It's not even the words as much as the grammar. Duolingo is way better than Rosetta Stone in that sense I think though as it doesn't let you slip at all. Also I think Japanese might be launching on Duolingo in October. They have a teaser image which is red and white with an egg cracking like it could be Godzilla or something (Godzilla's like eggs right?)
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on April 12, 2014, 08:29:09 PM
Update:

Remembering the Kanji 1 completed. 2000 kanji "learned". I say "learned" because I know like half the puzzle. I know what the kanji mean in English but not in Japanese. Restarting Core2k vocab to fix that. Since I know the kanji now, that will make things easier.

Now that I'm done with the core 2000 kanji, time for textbooks to work on grammar!!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C%2BQJwJ1rL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EYDrfFa7L._SY300_.jpg)

Also MANGA:

(http://i.imgur.com/MlZokoS.jpg?1)

IN ITS ORIGINAL LANGUAGE. :lawd :rejoice

Act like you can stop me. 8)

The goal to be intermediate in Japanese before the end of the year continues!
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: chronovore on April 13, 2014, 06:41:03 PM
I'm glad you're sticking with it!
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on August 09, 2014, 02:40:00 AM
So!

I've been doing this for a year. I'm really proud of myself! I always wanted to learn Japanese and now I think I can honestly say I am now lower-intermediate level! :noah I can beat DQ1 now without any trouble in Japanese. And it's short enough to replay and test language ability. Something like Pokemon screenshots in famitsu makes me scoff. I can even do a more story oriented title like FFIV. I didn't beat it, because my goal was to test language ability, but I did make it ten hours into it and I felt that was enough.

I'm going to be reviewing materials in this post. I have tried and experimented with a lot of techniques this past year but the best is diligence! HOWWWWWever, I think we all learn language differently, but I still think there are some core principles everyone needs to go through to drill the language into your head while MAKING IT FUN! When we were kids and we learned the abc's we made it fun. We were taught a song. We colored in big cartoon shaped letters. We read colorful books. We watched tv. We played games.

1. (http://i.imgur.com/q15rpnK.jpg)


First things first I suggest starting with Learning the Hiragana/Katakana by Heisig. It's easily the best and most fun way to drill the basic kana into your head. If you're not in Japan, however, you cannot immerse yourself. So if you don't practice you will lose your kana knowledge like I did in the past. You can do Remembering the Kana in two days. Three hours each.

2. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bf/Yakuza_4_cover.jpg)

 After you finish RTKANA, I highly suggest picking up a game that has a lot of Japanese in its scenery.  Play the game in English. Playing or reading Japanese now at this level will be painful and frustrating. But say, a game like Yakuza 4 has Japanese all over the place and since you're not in Japan it's a great substitute. You'll see kana all over the streets in Yakuza games.

(http://www.segabits.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/segabits-yakuza-four1.jpg)
(http://img.hexus.net/v2/yakuza3.jpg)

"Hey! I can read that!"

You'll be using context to learn new words. You'll see that that hiragana for that cart clearly says Miku, while the English translation is meat. HEY. I LEARNED A NEW WORD. Keep plugging in an drill in your head what these characters are to the point where they become as a part of you as the abc's. If you forget some kana, go back to RTKANA and do the parts you're struggling with over again and try again. Eventually you'll get it. This is THE BEST WAY TO MASTER KATAKANA BASICS.

3. (http://i.imgur.com/BTU6ciN.jpg)

Read Japanese The Manga Way. This book uses manga as examples of everyday Japanese and correct grammar use. It is a very helpful tool that makes learning Japanese grammar and sentence structure easy, fun, and just a joy to read. Don't sweat the kanji that's present in the manga examples. Stress emphasis on the kana and the books contents and internalize Japanese sentence structure.

(http://www.tofugu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/jtmw-grammar.png)

See? Even here is great kana practice! Even though you don't know the kanji, you should be able to read "ri masen deshita" in the above pic.  Japanese The Manga Way is one great way to internalize kana.

See?

(http://i.imgur.com/PBatmts.jpg)

4. Now that you've internalized or are pretty :obama at kana, let's move on to kanji. Immediately. Keep playing Yakuza or whatever game with lots of Japanese in its games environment. Why start on kanji so fast? Because it's essential as fuck. Romaji when learning Japanese is essentially useless. I don't even KNOW how to use romaji anymore because I think of the characters in Japanese and not in Latin characters. Learning kanji will help tons and help you closer to your goal. It'll also be THE first huge testing ground for your dedication towards learning the language. I suggest picking Heisig's Remembering the Kanji 1.

(http://i.imgur.com/xX5Yfge.jpg)

In this book you will go over the 2000 core every day use kanji and their most common meanings. It doesn't tell you the Japanese WORD for the kanji because that's extra information and too much for now. However, it does teach you how to decipher and read kanji. It teaches kanji so that it no longer scary, but beautiful. You go from learning basic one stroke kanji for the number 1, to 20 stroke kanjis you can decipher and draw with ease. You become a monster. All it takes is 10 kanji a day, diligence, and hard work. Eventually, whether it will be three months or six months depending on your rate, you'll have those 2000 kanji under your belt. For the record, it took me six months.

I suggest using RTK ios app (which is pretty great, shame I didn't have ios when I completed it) in conjunction with an RTK Anki deck. Practice every day. Even 3 new kanji is better than none.

(http://a1.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Purple6/v4/51/f9/ec/51f9ec14-8663-1e54-8b5f-a4541b32974f/screen568x568.jpeg)(http://a5.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Purple2/v4/62/eb/2a/62eb2a30-08fc-2818-44cf-93cb98ebc1cf/screen568x568.jpeg)(http://a3.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Purple/v4/eb/4d/e6/eb4de601-6240-c162-b948-80d36170f4b8/screen568x568.jpeg)

I suggest taking a break at 1000 kanji. From there the road is TOUGH. And you deserve a break. Re-read Japanese the manga way and see if you understand the kanji more now. You will. Start to read Japanese news sites that interest you and see if you can parse articles and headlines. You will.
At this point, I suggest starting a Japanese text book suck as Assimil's Japanese with Ease or Genki's. I suggest BOTH.

(http://i.imgur.com/00YwVvL.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/JI6ZfXT.jpg)

Use the textbook like you would a regular one. Get the beginner book for both. I suggest starting on Genki. Do this while working on the final 1000 kanji.

5. You've now finished all 2000 everyday use kanji in less than a year. You've made people who pay for four year Japanese classes tremble! SUCH IS POWER! Maybe you're still on your textbook. Keep at it. Again, it's break time. Play a game in Japanese. See how you can understand even without knowing all the vocab. You'll understand a surprisingly lot depending on the level. I suggest playing something light that has dialogue. Mega Man X. Dragon Quest III or IV. Final Fantasy I. Pokemon. Maybe even a Tales game. Come on, baby. You can do this!

(http://dsmedia.ign.com/ds/image/article/871/871853/dragon-quest-iv-20080506101758549.jpg)

(http://199.101.98.242/media/shots/35115-Rockman_X_(Japan)-3.jpg)

(http://legendsoflocalization.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bomb-flower-j.png)

Go back to Japanese the Manga Way. Read the manga samples and see which ones you understand completely. Import those manga either from the INTERNET SHOP or yesasia.com. Some manga I've imported that are very good at this level: Crayon Shin-chan (must have), Yotsubato (must have), One Piece (must have), Kimagure Orange Road, Dragon Ball.

(http://0.tqn.com/d/manga/1/S/1/F/0/-/Yotsuba1_JP_konyaku_300.jpg)

(http://no-sword.jp/images/2005/2005-05-20-crayon.jpg)

Any word you don't understand? Look it up in a Japanese dictionary. Add it to a personal Anki vocab deck.

Continue to review your kanji so you don't forget in Anki. But more than that, it's time to start learning vocab.

6. Download the Core2k vocab Anki deck. Those 2000 kanji you know? You're going to learn the Japanese word. Yes, you know that kanji that looks like a key (fortune teller; one horizontal stroke, attached to a long vertical stroke, attached to a square) is uranai in Japanese. You'll filling in your vocab for both kanji and kana. Combined with practicing with Japanese media (news, comics, games, movies and shows preferably with Japanese subtitles) and two text books, you'll be fine.

By the time you've finished the core, you should be done with both Genki 1 and Japanese with Ease 1. Now, revisit those Japanese the Manga way and check out how far you've come. You've gone from what the fuck is that? To,"oh, sono toki o nirande ima kara junbi o shinakereba osoi n desu", kanji and all. You may not be perfect. You  will mess up a lot. You may and will have to look stuff up. But you're over the hump and it is incredibly satisfying.

All of this is can be done in less than a year. With diligence, 6-9 months. You can do it you fucker!!! I may not understand all the dialogue for FFXII in Japanese but dammit I WILL. Eventually! You need a passion and love for the language to do all of this I think. It can be hard and brutal. But if you love the language you'll be having fun the entire fucking time.

Now for Genki II and Japanese with Ease II!!!
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: chronovore on August 09, 2014, 11:52:44 AM
Great going, Himuro! I'm so impressed with how you've stuck with the plan and how much you've picked up. I am surprised that you're able to get through something like DQ, as I've had trouble playing Japanese video games, because it feels so forced and like work.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on August 09, 2014, 02:51:38 PM
It helps that the main reason I started learning the language is because goddamit, I'm sick of tired of games I want to play not coming over in English and me being left in the dark while my online buddies that know Japanese get a piece of the pie. It just so happens these games are rpgs.

DQ I'm very, very familiar with. I've played DQ1 and 3 across two different systems (snes and gbc). so I know how to play it, and I know what to do.

I suggest playing a game in Japanese that you love, and are VERY familiar with. I posted Ocarina of Time up there because I know that game by heart. If you know a game by heart, it's PERFECT for learning a language, personally. You'll pick up vocab faster because you're familiar with the game, it'll be less of a struggle, and you'll be having fun because it's that game you like in a brand new way. I suggest playing something that's nice and slow - something you can take your time with. Something that's not too busy. So NOT something like GTA for instance, which has a lot of voice acting and text.

Dragon Quest - at least early DQ - ain't bad actually!

Isn't DQ mostly made so that kids can play it?

Can you read this?

(http://jaybot7.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/dqcharacter.jpg)

(http://pic4.duowan.com/nds/0906/109006639387/109007115350.jpg)

I find DQ really helps. Under no circumstances am I saying I understand everything all at once. I'm not fluent, of course. I still look words up, I sometimes still struggle. But it becomes easier and easier. While it may seem tedious. I suggest buying ONE volume of a manga at first, and try to stick to a small selection of games. Re-read and replay those. See how far you can get. Then, the more you study, revisit them, and see how far you've come and see how far you can get THIS time. It may be tough, but the results speak for themselves.

When are the next N tests? Do I have to start on N5? Or can I just go straight to N4 test?
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on August 09, 2014, 04:03:01 PM
I'm actually jealous of people who aren't learning Japanese but are learning something with similar characters as English like Spanish, Italian, French, or German. These people don't have to spend almost upward of a year learning new characters. :maf All they have to do is pick up a great textbook, get some anki cards, some comics, movies, and games in their target language and go to town. Fuck these people. :tocry :brazilcry Especially people who want to learn Spanish. Most dvds/blurays have spanish voices or subtitles. You can pick up a comic in Spanish with ease. Most games have a Spanish text mode in America, they even have French and Italian and German due to Europe. These people have far more better and easier ways to get resources for their target languages and I hope they take advantage of this.

The bright side is I don't think there's an equivalent to Japanese the Manga Way for other languages. Truly the GOAT grammar book. :bow
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Kara on August 09, 2014, 04:10:33 PM
I learned (i.e. read and write) Arabic's abjad in maybe 6 weeks? You just picked a language with an absolutely fucked writing system.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on August 09, 2014, 04:38:46 PM
I learned kana in a week.

Kana is the native writing system.

Kanji can be blamed on China. Kanji's not that bad, though. It just takes a long time until you can get into the meat of the language.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Rufus on August 09, 2014, 05:01:38 PM
I've heard some people learn the radicals (the common strokes that many kanji share), rather than kanji themselves. Supposedly that's easier in the long run, since you can puzzle out new kanji with some success, rather than having to learn them individually.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on August 09, 2014, 05:16:57 PM
The Heisig method is the best method I've seen. You start from one stroke to 20+ strokes. You see the patterns that makes them easy to identify. That makes learning the core 2000 kanji much more simple because you now see them as shapes rather than just strokes.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Rufus on August 09, 2014, 07:33:47 PM
Seems like it's pretty much what I'm talking about, only he calls them "primitves" (and it's not just radicals, apparently). I've definitely seen those books before.

Hm. Hmhmhm.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: chronovore on August 10, 2014, 12:09:05 AM
I can read the characters in those pretty easily. It's just not fun for me. I have better luck with manga.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on August 10, 2014, 07:36:40 PM
I wanted to learn Spanish.  Coming from an HR/Management perspective, saying you know Spanish on a resume is meaningless but if you have an Associates Degree from some Community College for Spanish, it gets taken more seriously than someone who just used Rosetta Stone.  So I tried to find ways to enlist into Spanish courses nearby where I live but there are no options for doing so, in spite of several local community colleges.  So I might have to break down and do the Rosetta Stone/flash card thing.

I'm also tempted to learn French.  Some of the big money Oil and Gas jobs that start off at over 300,000 Euros require fluency in English and French for some reason.  For that kind of money, it seems like it is worth a serious look.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Kara on August 10, 2014, 08:07:13 PM
A lot of African countries are francophone, I imagine that might be why.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on August 10, 2014, 08:21:37 PM
I can read the characters in those pretty easily. It's just not fun for me. I have better luck with manga.

Hmmm makes sense

what can you tell me about the N tests?
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: chronovore on August 10, 2014, 08:51:22 PM
I can read the characters in those pretty easily. It's just not fun for me. I have better luck with manga.

Hmmm makes sense

what can you tell me about the N tests?

I didn't realize those questions were directed at me earlier, sorry. I can't tell you anything -- I have never taken a Japanese test, and I've only had 2 semesters of formal Japanese study. Everything else has been learned on the ground over the 14 years I've lived here.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Atramental on August 10, 2014, 09:06:49 PM
I think the only thing that's stopping me from becoming proficient in another language is that I'm still trying to decide what country I want to move to once I have the means to do so. I was thinking about Germany.

Then again, there's Canada and Australia. No need to learn another language for those two.

Probably still need to do some more research and actually travel to these places before I make a decision.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: MyNameIsMethodis on August 10, 2014, 09:32:48 PM
I tried to learn French for a month but got bored  :'(

Avec vous un histoire? Non, je suis desolee. :(
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Kara on August 10, 2014, 09:43:06 PM
*une

**idk your gender (sorry), but your inflection on desole may also be wrong.

e: nvm it's wrong, I looked at your profile. :stasi

French is OK if you never have to read / write it (it's English tier in its orthography) or go to Paris or Quebec.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: MyNameIsMethodis on August 10, 2014, 09:55:05 PM
that month sure paid off :fbm
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: HyperZoneWasAwesome on August 11, 2014, 02:59:54 AM
A lot of African countries are francophone, I imagine that might be why.
I work with a French African dude, his accent is so think that I think that everybody, at best can understand 70% of what he's saying at any given time.  But he really does rock that française like a champ.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 01, 2016, 06:05:00 PM
Working on an updated guide to getting past the hurdles of beginner Japanese and into lower intermediate if anyone is interesting in reading. If not I will not post it. It will be more detailed and could possibly help people who are learning other languages.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Positive Touch on June 01, 2016, 06:20:37 PM
i would absolutely like to know whatever you're willing to teach. i haven't progressed beyond learning hiragana
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 01, 2016, 09:05:33 PM
Okay.

1. Learn Kana asap. If you're dealing with any language that doesn't use romanized lettering, whether it's Arabic, Japanese, Chinese, whatever. Learn the writing system first to avoid romanized teaching. If your target language is Japanese, you should avoid any learning material that teaches via romaji (roman transliteration of Japanese) instead of the actual Japanese language. There are exceptions, but the rule proves to be true.

You can learn kana - both hiragana and katakana - within a few hours to a few days. One resource for this is Heisig's Remembering the Kana. You can find it on Amazon here, or just get it from the internet shop. You learn both syllaberies in three hours each as the book advertises. So if six hours isn't worth paying for, don't buy it, but I personally find it to be a worthwhile investment. Plus, it's cheap and quality should be paid for.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41%2Bz8dsu0RL._SX323_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kana-Reading-Japanese-Syllabaries/dp/0824831640/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464822662&sr=8-1&keywords=remembering+the+kana

If Heisig doesn't work for you, there's a tons of other resources online that do the job such as Tofugu:

https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/learn-hiragana/
https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/learn-katakana/

2. After learning Kana buy a game or movie in your target language that has a lot of signage in your target language using the writing system you just learned. Signage is a great way to replace immersion if it's not available to you. If you're learning Spanish and you need signage, if you're near a local Spanish place just go to there and practice reading in Spanish. This step is mostly beneficial for languages that do not have Romanized lettering. Thankfully, Japanese is great for this because it's one of the top nations in the world for producing media, especially games, that allow you go at your own pace and immerse yourself in the details of the environment. Doing this for romanized languages is much harder. For example, there's lots of games that take place in France or Italy (Assassin's Creed) but how much signage do they have compared to modern settings? Very little. On the other hand, the benefit of these languages is you generally have wider access to those languages if you live in Europe or America, especially if your L2 (language 2) is Spanish.

Games that take place in Japan and have Kana:

(http://i.imgur.com/E1TRFWK.jpg?1)

Yakuza games are great at this. There's lots of signage of modern Japanese and you can use this as practice for your kana to help instill them. This allows you to start reading stuff in Japanese from literally day 1. Just from this image alone you should be able to make out words with kana. Whether you know what they mean or not is irrelevant, what matters is that reading this hardens the kana in you after learning them so you can recall them as easily as our own ABC's.

Other games with lots of kana all over the place are Shenmue:

(http://i.imgur.com/ZIIF2xo.jpg)

Surprisingly, there's not a lot of Japanese games that take place in modern settings and have lots of kana in them.

If playing a game for a learning purpose isn't your style, you can just read websites that interest you. You can simply go to www3.nhk.or.jp/ or www.famtsu.com and practice reading kana. You should be able to make a few things out with practice, especially katakana-based words. I suggest games instead though because you can play them at your own speed and while it costs money, you don't have to feel like you're overwhelmed by a shit ton of incomprehensible text.

3. Download Anki. http://ankisrs.net/

Anki is a website and app that teaches via SRS flashcards.

What is Anki?

Quote
Anki is a program which makes remembering things easy. Because it's a lot more efficient than traditional study methods, you can either greatly decrease your time spent studying, or greatly increase the amount you learn.

Anyone who needs to remember things in their daily life can benefit from Anki. Since it is content-agnostic and supports images, audio, videos and scientific markup (via LaTeX), the possibilities are endless.
For example:

    Learning a language
    Studying for medical and law exams
    Memorizing people's names and faces
    Brushing up on geography
    Mastering long poems
    Even practicing guitar chords!

It has a large community and one of its main purposes is language learning. If you're learning a language, seriously just go to Anki and download a deck. For now, you're going to want to download a Kana deck and do those kana to drill them into your head.

One of the great things about Anki is you can make your own decks too. So if you're watching a tv show and don't quite understand a word, you can just write it down on a piece of paper, get a dictionary and find the translation. Then when you're finished watching, enter the word and the translation/context into your very own Anki media vocab deck and review later so that when it comes up again you'll know it.

Anki costs 25 dollars on the iOS app store but I swear to you it's fucking worth it. Using it right, you will have exceeded over 25 hours using that app within just a few weeks. It is free on Android.

4. Buy Assimil's Japanese With Ease and Heisig's Remembering the Kanji.

You can do these two in any order. You can do RTK before JWE or JWE before RTK. Maybe both at the same time. Just stick to your day to day schedule.

I personally suggest doing both at the same time if possible.

Japanese with Ease is a textbook. Remembering the Kanji is a method to help you learn the meaning of, how to write, and remember all of the regular use (joyo) kanji as directed by the Japanese Ministry of Education which is 2,136 characters as of 2010. Heisig's method is a revolutionary way of maintaining Kanji knowledge and is one of the most respected and highly praised models of teaching the writing system today. The course for RTK should last upwards between 3 months to 6 months depending on your rate. On average, most people do between 20-25 kanji per day. Some do 10 per day. Doing 25 per day should get you finished with the book in three months time with a daily and regular schedule. Doing RTK is a good litmus test for Japanese learners because it weeds out people who don't have that much of an interest in learning the language and makes it a full on daily investment.

Example of RTK:

(http://i.imgur.com/rs8KxIX.png)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51QhUaQJRmL._SX333_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Complete-Japanese-Characters/dp/0824835921/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464824752&sr=8-1&keywords=remembering+the+kanji

It should be obvious that you should use Anki as an assistant for this book. Download a deck for the most recent version of RTK and go to town. Anki will help you review the kanji you learned that day and the ones before that too.

I suggest Assimil over the most oft mentioned Genki because Genki's main purpose is that of a grammar book. While Genki is great, it's a college textbook mostly aimed for college students. If you're taking a college class on Japanese, chances are you're using Genki. But Genki isn't made for self learners. Assimil is. Assimil is also better.

Assimil is made of a passive stage and an active stage. The passive stage lasts 50 lessons. The active is another 50 lessons. The reason I suggest Assiil over Genki is because Japanese with Ease comes with cds that tie to its lesson plans. Each lesson begins with and is entirely about the audio on the cd. The cds contain ZERO English. Only Japanese. The point is to listen to the cd audio, look at the translation, then look at the Japanese in the textbooks, and repeat what they're saying. A description of the Assimil method as per Dutch With Ease's explanation:

Quote
1. Listen to the text with the book closed. It does not matter if you do not understand what is said. You will gain a general impression of the sounds, hearing the pronunciation without being influenced by the spelling.

2. Listen to the recording a second time while looking at the English translation.

3. Read the Dutch text aloud (with the aid of the phonetic transcription if necessary). Be sure you understand the meaning of each sentence, comparing it with the translation as required.

4. Now read the Dutch text again, but this time without looking at the translation.

5. Listen to the recording twice, once while looking at the English translation, and once while looking at the Dutch text.

6. Listen to the recording again with the book closed. At this point you should understand what is being said.

7. Listen to the recording once more. Stop the machine after each sentence, and try to repeat it aloud.

8. Carefully read the comments several times. Examine the Dutch sentences being explained. These notes are very important.

9. Read the exercises. Repeat each sentence several times. The exercises review material from the current lesson and from preceding lessons. If you have forgotten certain words, consult the English translation.

10. Examine the examples of sentence structure. They show how words and phrases are combined in Dutch, which is not always the same as in English.

As you can see, this is thorough. Personally, what I also did is after learning what each thing means, I listened to the audio again, and I translated it into English. Then I look at the English translation I made, and I translated THAT into Japanese writing it in kana without listening to the audio. This made me really, REALLY, good at not only listening comprehension, but also translation, writing, and memorizing kana. The audio also is done by native speakers so when you repeat, you're going to sound like those native speakers. Great for speaking practice too.

One Assimil lesson is fine a day. Two at most during the passive stage. During Active, you're going to go through so much shit that one lesson is enough per day.

One of Japanese with Ease's weaknesses is that it comes with romaji. But it eventually knocks it off and the wheels come off. Someone who already learned the kana from the previous kana practice should be ignoring the romaji at all costs. Some people even black it out. Fuck romaji. FUCK ROMAJI.

(http://www.goddesscarlie.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/assimil_lesson.jpg)

For seeing how fucking effective Assimil is for language learning, just check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLvTEqXqlsI

Assimil has been around since the early 1900's. If you're learning any language, look into the At Ease series for that language. If it's good (not all of them are apparently good), then you can thank me later. Seriously.

One reason I suggest doing both at the same time is because I remember early on, I did this and one of the first kanji you learn in RTK is 早 which means early. The first lesson of Assimil uses this character. It's actually the first fucking word. That was amazingly satisfying, reading a kanji like that. Just like that, and knowing what it meant. But in this case, it meant hurry, not early. The word also was はやく(hayaku). While RTK does not teach what words mean in Japanese, only in English, and only one meaning (the most common one), doing Assimil side by side or even after RTK will help you fill in the blanks.

Unfortunately, in a lot of the western world, Assimil isn't exactly widely known. This can make it rare to find and sometimes expensive. But it's worth it. If you cannot find or afford it, the internet shop offers a great alternative assuming it's the latest edition.

5. Finishing Assimil and RTK should give you a base knowledge to start going at native material. After you should finish RTK, you should start doing the Core series, which is vocab. There's Core 2k, Core 4k, Core 6k, Core10k;etc. and doing this will help you fill in what those kanji actually mean in Japanese. Doing Assimil should also help greatly. Download Core via anki like usual and set your daily minimum limit. This is where the real work begins, because even at this point, native materials pose a challenge.

To help supplement this you need to fill in gaps of knowledge and have a firm understanding of Japanese grammar. Assimil should help with that, but extra is great too. Buy Japanese The Manga Way. It's a grammar book that uses manga to teach Japanese grammar. It's also the best grammar book ever and should be the basis for all grammar books in language learning going forward. Unfortunately, not every language works like Japanese though. In English for instance, comic writing is stylized and weird and normal people don't speak like that. But manga - depending on the genre - is spoken like actual every day Japanese. Also again, ignore the romaji.

(https://files.tofugu.com/articles/reviews/2014-10-29-japanese-the-manga-way/yo-without-da.jpg)

The Tofugu review of JTMW is pretty clear on why it's so essential:

https://www.tofugu.com/reviews/japanese-the-manga-way/

One of JTMW's weaknesses though is that it has no tests or quizzes or work. Thankfully, some people have made Anki decks for it. Anki fucking owns: https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks/jtmw

Going through JTMW should you seal your understanding of Japanese sentence structure. Now pick up Graded Readers.

https://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Graded-Readers-Level-Vol/dp/4872177118/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464827487&sr=8-1&keywords=japanese+graded+readers

This series in particular is fantastic. It goes from levels 0-4. 0 is suggested on where you should start. They come with their own stories and cd's. The cd's should be listened to along with the stories. Read that shit. Any vocab you're not familiar with, add it to a deck.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VpjfqozKL._SX350_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

More actual Japanese from excellent native sources:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41fMm2klgAL._SX333_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/Read-Real-Japanese-Fiction-Contemporary/dp/1568365292?ie=UTF8&ref_=redir_mobile_desktop&ref_=s9_simh_gw_d0_g14_i1

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519SAjvPhdL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/Read-Real-Japanese-Essays-Contemporary/dp/1568364148/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=6V11Y3ZFDPQPPETX4W0H

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51qm7gZSHWL._SX343_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-into-Japanese-Literature-Classics/dp/1568364156/ref=pd_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&dpID=51qm7gZSHWL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR110%2C160_&refRID=32GJT0CQ6Q0W5CAH9JWG

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YW550pA2L._SX351_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/Shadowing-Speak-Japanese-Beginner-Intermediate/dp/4874243541/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1464827754&sr=1-1&keywords=shadowing

(http://i.imgur.com/qOq6V2L.jpg)

http://www.yesasia.com/us/yotsubato-1/1036602702-0-0-0-en/info.html

Surprisingly, I don't suggest reading children's books because they lack any kanji and the words run together and as someone who can read kanji at that point, it's just tedium. Some of the aforementioned titles include children's stories but with adult writing. By learning kanji, you're learning how to read and speak Japanese like an adult. Remember that how we speak English as adults is a lot different than how children are taught to speak. Japanese works similarly. Don't even bother unless there's kanji IMO. There's much better sources for learning at that point.

6. If you want to practice writing and reading your target language (any language), join Lang-8 and Skype.

http://lang-8.com/

It supports multiple languages. It's a social network meets language study. You make friends with natives of your target language. The point is you write something in your target language, and one of your native friends who knows that language corrects what you wrote and makes suggestions. Then you help people learn your native language. It's a give and take process. Some people (like me) write what what they're thinking in their native language so someone trying to learn English can read what I'm writing and then read the Japanese version I wrote. That way they can compare and help themselves too and we can help each other get better. It's an amazing resource. You can use Lang 8 with Genki if you get Genki. Genki is made for a classroom setting and one of the things about that is that there's homework to be graded. You obviously can't grade your own homework on your own. So one way to use Lang 8 is writing your Genki homework in Lang 8 and having someone correct it. The main issue with Lang 8 is it is entirely dependent on that persons level of language. We obviously all don't use the same rules and styles of the same language, but it's generally an amazing resource no matter what language you're learning.

Skype will allow you to talk directly to natives who speak your target language. There are programs on the internet that people do and speak to each other to help listening comprehension, speed, vocab, whatever.

7. Read Japanese sites regularly, still review your Anki decks, play games in Japanese. You've made it past the hump.

While playing Dragon Quest 7 iOS any time there was grammar or vocab I didn't understand, I'd stop what I was doing. Grab a piece of paper and pen and write it down. I'd look at a translation on Jisho (THE premiere Japanese online dictionary - found here - http://jisho.org/) and then write that down too. When it came time to review in Anki, I'd add it to the personal vocab deck and make sure I got it. Same applies to those other native materials mentioned above.

Learning Japanese isn't as hard as people make it. It just takes a lot of diligence and you have to really want it. I tried learning Spanish recently and learning the basics and getting past beginner Spanish is pretty easy. But past the beginner phase and into intermediate it's totally different and gets overly complicated and annoying. I don't like it at all. Japanese is the opposite for me. Getting past beginner is a battle. But once you're intermediate it's smooth sailing for the most part. For example, Japanese grammar and sentence structure is fucking easy compared to Spanish or especially English. Its biggest obstacle is the writing system and once you've got that you're good. I originally did this because I was sick of waiting for DQ7r. I beat DQ7 iOS and I met my initial goal. Now I'm working on getting even better. Just ordered Shadowing Intermediate to Advanced and some other materials (another textbook) such as Tobira. I'd like to become advanced so I can use it as a possible career move and possibly work in Japan for a while to make a name for myself.

Doing RTK should take 3-6 months depending on your rate. Assimil should take 100 days (one per lesson) for both phases. Core 2k doesn't take too long after doing Assimil which fills in the gaps. After that, you've got a good foundation in becoming good at the language. Personally it took me three years to be able to get this far since I made this thread. IMO, if you've got the drive you can do it in one or two with three or four hours per day of studying. But remember, even one to two hours is better than zero and showing up is actually 100% of the work. With doing something rather than nothing, you'll get to your goal no matter what it is.

You just have to want it and enjoy it.

Don't learn a language because you think you need to. Do it because you enjoy it. The language to learn is the one you're passionate about.

Queen out.

(http://i.imgur.com/r0HIVgR.gif)
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: bork on June 01, 2016, 09:37:49 PM
I'm going to draw on my own experiences on this.  For background, I took Japanese all during my university days and went from the beginning to the level "3000" classes.   My professor was awesome; she was a Japanese national holding a dual citizenship, and she had multiple degrees and doctorates from more than one university, including Harvard.  She was a Japanese AND English language master and even taught some English grammar courses on the side. 

Starting with katakana is good.  It uses foreign loan words, so it's a good way to not only memorize the symbols, but also to start getting the pronunciations down.

The 1000 level classes we took started out with just katakana the first semester.  Of course, that's just the reading level.  The other huge part of this is getting the grammar and sentence structure down, and there's vocabulary.  You can do self-study...but you're going to need to be able to communicate with other speakers to really get this down. 

The 2000 level stuff had us full into hiragana and the start of kanji.  The latter is tough for me to memorize.  I don't have books for it...there's plenty of good flashcard apps you can get for your phone or tablet.  Queen is absolutely right when it comes to romaji-- I hated it and it made things harder when we switched over to full-on Japanese textbooks after convincing our professor to do so. 

3000 level was more vocabulary and kanji like a motherfucker.  I can't remember exactly what happened, but I believe I got a D in the class -just couldn't get it all memorized at the time- and had to take something else in its place. 

But where I really learned stuff?  Japan.  I mean, makes total sense, right?  Being immersed in the language you're learning is what really helps.  I've retained a decent amount of the language thanks to being married to a native speaker, but even then my language skills have diminished a bit while she has only improved in English.  But it's still an awesome feeling going over there and being able to get around and communicate without the use of any kind of translation material.

One thing I don't agree with?  Not reading or watching children's books/comics/shows/movies.  That is absolutely worth doing and good for beginner and intermediate levels and something my professor used in class.  One thing I loved doing was translating a full Rakudai Ninja Rantarou episode.  I didn't just translate it...I full-on LOCALIZED it and my professor was really surprised at how well I did versus the rest of the class.  I need to really brush up on things and I'd love to do some manga translation sometime.

Finally, Queen, if you want to do something in Japan...you're gonna want to actually test yourself, which is something else that self-study probably isn't going to be very helpful with.  Want to do translation work?  OK...go pass the top level JLPT first.  It's now five levels (was previously four).  During my last year living there, I debated going into full-on study mode and devoting myself to passing it, but ultimately decided to go back to school and start doing the IT thing in 'Murica.  I'd move back over there in a heartbeat if I could find a good job, though.  But I hear IT jobs there pay like half what they do here and have longer hours on top of it.  :-\
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 01, 2016, 09:46:47 PM
I do not plan on doing translation work at all. For more information, pm me.

I have not done my JLPT's yet. I think I'm at least N3. I want to be N2 before I try to go to Japan but it will be a few years because I have other goals in mind first.

I didn't say ignore everything children. Just a lot of children's books for a young age.

Yotsbato for example is for children, but I still suggest it. I'm talking about really really young stuff. Like nursing rhymes and stuff like the equivalent of Japanese Itsy Bitsy Spider. I think stuff aimed at children ages 7 and up is fine.

Anyways, this seems like a lot, but you will KNOW if you're right for it while doing Assimil. Translating the audio into English and then into Japanese was so fun, I couldn't wait for the next lesson but I had a one lesson per day rule. That's how I knew I found my L2. If you're having fun with it, stick with it. It will bear fruit.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: bork on June 01, 2016, 09:55:35 PM
I do not plan on doing translation work at all. For more information, pm me.

Graphic design?  I'd probably bump the Japan thread and ask Chronovore, but getting work over there that's not eikaiwa or at a foreign company is gonna be tough...especially without the proof (I.E. JLPT N1 and the like) to back it up.  But it can be done.  One of my buddies is finding steady work over there and hasn't passed any tests IIRC. 

A lot of people also don't like it.  You definitely need to make your way over there and see how you like being there for an extended period of time.  I saw too many JETs go home during my time there. 

Quote
I have not done my JLPT's yet. I think I'm at least N3. I want to be N2 before I try to go to Japan but it will be a few years because I have other goals in mind first.

If you can do N3, great, but based on what you've posted...my concern would be the listening comprehension sections.  Anyway, what you're doing is awesome.  :)
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 01, 2016, 10:04:42 PM
Er.

Most of the stuff I suggest come with audio cds. The books like Contemporary Fiction and Graded Readers all come with audio cds that read what is being said and they're FAST.

This is in the Shadowing beginner book.

https://youtu.be/r8G9kiofFl8

Assimil itself is an audio based teaching tool and it gets really fast. I've covered wide amount of bases. I even suggested talking to natives via Skype, which I have done. What I've suggested is the real deal, buddy.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Samson Manhug on June 02, 2016, 12:31:09 AM
Anyone else on Duolingo these days? My only friend still active is my mom and she is crushing me. I don’t have time to beat a retiree doing 10 lessons a day.  :'(
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: chronovore on June 02, 2016, 12:56:47 AM
Anyone else on Duolingo these days? My only friend still active is my mom and she is crushing me. I don’t have time to beat a retiree doing 10 lessons a day.  :'(

I'd love to buddy up, but Duolingo doesn't have Japanese.  :-\
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Samson Manhug on June 02, 2016, 12:58:54 AM
Sounds like it’s time to learn Swedish!
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 05, 2016, 06:32:39 AM
Thought I'd add some stuff.

If you can hack RTK and Assimil. You're almost over the hump tbh. You can dive right into native material. There's two camps after that point. There's people who think Core vocab sucks because there's no context. And they emphasize learning vocab and words through native material so they learn stuff they find useful. Then there's people who feel looking up words every few minutes or seconds to know what it means is tedious and stress pre learning vocab absence of context. But Assimil gives a great base in vocab and will teach you some 1800 words. Another reason I stress using it. So I emphasize both. That's my personal method. You can go with whatever.

I don't suggest play JRPGs in Japanese at that point unless you can really stomach taking out your phone and looking up a word in a dictionary every few minutes. If you do go with a jrpg, do something you are very, very, VERY knowledgeable on. I'm talking knowing inside the fuck out. Its story, its characters, its systems. If you know FF4 like the back of your hand and can stomach looking up words now and then, do FF4 in Japanese. Personally, FF7 was my first jrpg,  and it's a game I know like the back of my hand, so I went with that.

But to get the most out of post RTK and post Assimil, I really suggest sticking to stories like I posted above, manga aimed for children and general audiences like Yotsubato or something. Watch an anime aimed at children like My Neighbor Totoro or Whisper of the Heart. Watch them in Japanese with Japanese subtitles. But watch it with English subs first so you know the story if you haven't seen them. Then when you watch in Japanese, take advantage of digital features and get a Subs2SRS thing which converts Japanese subtitles for movies or anime and turns it into an anki deck to study its vocab. The point is that once you've got a good base, it is going to be a SLOG no matter what you do so you might as well limit how much of a slog it is. But it's worth it if you value this.

The reason I said not to get into material that is TOO young is because for someone starting out, nothing but kana is confusing as fuck. Remember, Japanese has no commas. Kana blends together and for the novice it's hard to know where words end and begin. This is the genius of kanji. Kanji is a word and the kana acts as either grammar add on (hiragana) or a foreign loan word (katakan). Japanese without kanji is tedious as fuck. If you finish RTK kanji will no longer be intimidating and you will embrace kanji. So stuff aimed at kids with no kanji knowledge will just make your head explode.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 05, 2016, 06:56:39 AM
Kanji

http://japaneseruleof7.com/why-you-must-learn-kanji/

:bow
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 05, 2016, 08:14:10 AM
That depends on how you're doing it and honestly, it sounds like you're doing it wrong.

When I taught myself the jouyo via Heisig, I thought the opposite.

The story is all you need to know. What I would is have a dedicated kanji notebook. When I studied RTK, I'd first write down the word in English. Then I'd read the story and apply a visual in my head. Then I'd write the story down. If the story did not work for me, I went online for one someone came up with that was even better. Then I'd write THAT down. Then I'd write the kanji, once and only once. Then I'd go and do the next kanji. Once I was finished, I'd look at my lesson plan for that day and learn all of them by getting a visual on the story and learn that kanji. Again, having only written the kanji once and only once. Then I'd take a break and fuck around the internet or draw or watch tv. I'd come back and review what I did on Anki.

A week later, I don't remember the story. All I know is the kanji.

Applied correctly, you shouldn't remember a story.

Let's take the character for eye. 目 It is an eye rotated vertically and squared up. This is a literal pictograph.

The story for something like shellfish (貝) is that of a shell fish on the bottom of the sea. It has the character for eye (目) in it. It has the primitive for animal legs on it. So the story is imagining a shellfish that has a giant eye on its shell scaring people on the beach with its wiry, spider like legs. After putting that to a visual, it's easy to recall the character. Not only has it helped seal your knowledge of the character for eye by attaching it to a visual, but it also does so for the primitive of animal legs by doing the same thing. Now after this character it's impossible to forget eye, shellfish, or the primitive animal legs.

After a specific amount of time that story is going to go with the wind, and the only thing you should know about that character is that it means shellfish.

Nothing I have written is rote memorization. It's simple visual recall.

If you cannot recall kanji due to the stories, either you are

1. writing the kanji over and over and not emphasizing the story.

2. not applying the right story that works for you.

3. someone who has very poor visual memory

or

4. doing the method wrong.

Maybe it's because Heisig's method doesn't work for you, but 9 times out of 10, the reason someone doesn't or can't remember stuff from RTK is because

a. They're speeding and doing like 40-50 a day when Heisig literally says 20-25 should be ideal in the intro and that you're doing too much to allow the story to settle in your brain.

b. they're writing the kanji over and over and over even though they have been told as per the intro not to.

c. they're only relying on Heisig's stories, and not using the internet and its wonderful amazement as a resource to find other stories that work for other people.

or

d. they're not reviewing their stuff or they're learning when they should be reviewing, which usually is because of a combination of a and b. It's going to feel like rote memorization if you haven't already learned the kanji via the story, and you're trying to force yourself to learn it (b) or not giving yourself time to learn it (a). So when it comes to review time, when you should have already learned the kanji, you're learning and reviewing at the same time, making up a bulk of excess and tedium.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on June 05, 2016, 08:33:18 AM
Anyone else on Duolingo these days? My only friend still active is my mom and she is crushing me. I don’t have time to beat a retiree doing 10 lessons a day.  :'(

I used Duolingo all the time last year.  I would do 10 lessons also so I'd get the 100 points.  I've really been thinking about starting up again.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 05, 2016, 01:25:59 PM
It isn't practical to do 2000 times if you don't find it practical to learn Japanese. However, kanji is Japanese. Practical has nothing to do with it. If you want to learn how to swim, you hold on to the edge and learn to hold yourself up by kicking rapidly. You are going to start from zero either way and no route will be easy. The other alternative is to write each individual Jouyo kanji 5000 times till it's drilled into your head. Now which one is practical? It's only not practical if you don't value learning Japanese. And going by your words "cutting corners" etc you don't value learning Japanese.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on June 05, 2016, 03:31:41 PM
:beli

Anyways last post on this and it's pretty on the nose. My friend wrote it and I completely agree. I have completely taken Core vocab out of my schedule.

http://learnjapaneseonline.info/2015/05/10/core-japanese-vocabulary/

It's quite true too. When you read One Piece it has a totally different vocab than something like Asashi Shimbun. It's got "pirate" language and dialects. But of course reading One Piece will also make reading Asahi Shimbun easier as well. But learning 10k vocab words probably won't give you the grounding to read One Piece. So it's an interesting balance and why I emphasize native material out the gate once you have a core foundation.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: chronovore on June 15, 2016, 04:32:09 PM
And Evangelion, which is full of pseudoscience and religious jargon.

I hope those translators were paid extra.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mupepe on July 26, 2016, 07:42:39 AM
I think I want to learn German.  Is there a good app or a good series of books (or something) I can use via audio on my way to work.  A round trip of 2 hours can get in a lot of study time.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: archnemesis on July 26, 2016, 08:06:58 AM
Duolingo (https://www.duolingo.com/course/de/en/Learn-German-Online) is always a good way to start. You will have to combine it with many other sources if you want to go beyond the basics.

There are several Learn German audio books available on Spotify.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mupepe on July 26, 2016, 08:14:39 AM
Duolingo (https://www.duolingo.com/course/de/en/Learn-German-Online) is always a good way to start. You will have to combine it with many other sources if you want to go beyond the basics.

There are several Learn German audio books available on Spotify.
Awesome!  Looks like I'll either throw an Audible credit to a german audio book or get spotify.  I also downloaded duolingo
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mupepe on July 26, 2016, 08:26:39 AM
Not really much at all.  But I figure I'll start finding something.  German movies or tv or something.  Maybe watch a lot of Inglorious Basterds :doge
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mupepe on July 26, 2016, 08:34:56 AM
Considering watching or listening to a ton of German media before bothering to learn anything. You can learn right away if you want, but exposure will make everything easier. You'll get a good feel for how the language sounds and most importantly hearing the same words over and over pronounced slightly differently so you'll be able to understand different accents, etc. There's a ton of accents in English for example.

I wish I could recommend something but I also need some stuff recommended to watch. :'( Preferably a TV show.

You could start watching some German movies. There's a ton of great German films out there.
Yeah.  I think a google for "best german movies" or something will probably yield some results.  Germans make some f-ed horror movies and I dig those so I'll try that too.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 26, 2016, 08:38:56 AM
why german though mups
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Rufus on July 26, 2016, 09:07:51 AM
Why not? (http://i.imgur.com/2m1dPLC.gif)

Our two public TV networks both have online archives, but I'm not sure if you can access them without a VPN.

ardmediathek.de
zdf.de

As for shows, "Die Sendung mit der Maus" (ARD) should be a decent starting point. It's "How it's made" for children, but a lot of adults like it, too. The twist is that they don't tell you what's being made, it's gradually revealed by showing each step of the process.

I don't watch much TV or movies, so I'm quite uselss for recommendations. I'm especially rubbish with German productions.

Everything's dubbed over here though, so you could always just re-watch something in the German version. :doge
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 26, 2016, 09:35:34 AM
I mean why learn a language of a country where most people speak some English  :-*



Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Rufus on July 26, 2016, 09:55:19 AM
That would make sense for a brief visit, but it seems like he want a window into the culture.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mupepe on July 26, 2016, 12:14:48 PM
Why not? (http://i.imgur.com/2m1dPLC.gif)

Our two public TV networks both have online archives, but I'm not sure if you can access them without a VPN.

ardmediathek.de
zdf.de

As for shows, "Die Sendung mit der Maus" (ARD) should be a decent starting point. It's "How it's made" for children, but a lot of adults like it, too. The twist is that they don't tell you what's being made, it's gradually revealed by showing each step of the process.

I don't watch much TV or movies, so I'm quite uselss for recommendations. I'm especially rubbish with German productions.

Everything's dubbed over here though, so you could always just re-watch something in the German version. :doge
That's awesome.  Thanks!  I love How It's Made so I'll probably try to track that one down.  Is that show aired on the public networks you linked to?

That would make sense for a brief visit, but it seems like he want a window into the culture.
This is basically it. 
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Sman on July 26, 2016, 04:03:26 PM
Not really much at all.  But I figure I'll start finding something.  German movies or tv or something. 

Try those German variety shows where they get some middled-aged, German bands/singers and have them singing outdoors with picturesque mountains.

The whole tackiness is always funny to me.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Rufus on July 26, 2016, 04:31:18 PM
That's awesome.  Thanks!  I love How It's Made so I'll probably try to track that one down.  Is that show aired on the public networks you linked to?
Here's the page you want.
http://www.ardmediathek.de/tv/Die-Sendung-mit-der-Maus/Sendung?documentId=1458&bcastId=1458

Those sites can't compete with the BBC's iPlayer. I wish I could just link to a list of all the episodes instead of this jumbled mess of random segments. :stahp

Youtube can't help, either. I guess they're having them pull everything, because all I see are endlessly repeated clips of the cartoon segments... :goty2

edit:
Good god, I'm trying my best to find a way to display just the episodes, but it's fucking impossible. :lol Our public TV is in shambles. Money out the ass, but can't make a web archive worth shit. It's so shameful. :stahp

edit2:
!
Apparently this page will always show the most recent episode for a week:
http://www.wdrmaus.de/aktuelle-sendung/index.php5 (the second link named "hier" on the left-hand side leads to last-week's episode)

One important thing I forgot to mention about the show. The intro is always repeated in a random foreign language, so don't be confused. :lol

Here's an alphabetical list of the non-fictional segments of the show. I don't know why they pull everything apart like this. Sigh.
http://www.wdrmaus.de/sachgeschichten/filme.php5

I hope my frantic editing is not too confusing. I'm way too excited about this. :doge
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mupepe on July 26, 2016, 06:28:21 PM
 :lol

I'm going to give some episodes a watch tonight. 

Not really much at all.  But I figure I'll start finding something.  German movies or tv or something. 

Try those German variety shows where they get some middled-aged, German bands/singers and have them singing outdoors with picturesque mountains.

The whole tackiness is always funny to me.
The ones where they yodel and wear suspenders???  Or is that a different culture? :doge
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Rufus on July 26, 2016, 06:53:00 PM
That's Bavaria. Their culture is what many people outside of Germany think of as typically German. The whole lederhosen and pretzels thing. They probably have more in common with Austria and Tyrol than the rest of Germany. They're also pretty much our version of Texas. Conservative, pious (catholic), individualistic, don't like them Prussians from up north, distinct accent/dialect and it's our biggest (and wealthiest) state. Home to the one true Oktoberfest.

Watch Musikantenstadl if you want to know pain. There's some on Youtube.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mupepe on July 26, 2016, 07:37:51 PM
Holy shit.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VZIHJwi5QQY

This made one of my dogs start whining. I actually like it. :lol

It reminds me of Mexican Ranchero music. What else do you have??
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mupepe on July 26, 2016, 07:40:03 PM
Also, some of the women in that are :omg   Those outfits are pretty erotic.

Also, Texas seems like a spot on comparison. So many white people and one of those fucking kids has a mullet
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Rufus on July 26, 2016, 07:56:12 PM
:lol

Apparently Musikantenstadl is now known as Stadlshow. I don't know a lot about this stuff. The only names that come to mind are Helene Fischer (she had a played to death hit that I don't even want to think about), Stefanie Hertel and Roberto Blanko (gotta see his hair). Here are some keywords for you: Schlager (pop), Volksmusik (the lederhosen kind), Blasmusik (if you like brass) and Volkstümliche Musik (not quite lederhosen, but calls back to it). Heino is probably the biggest name there. He's covered Rammstein recently. :doge

Buncha names here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlager_music#Germany_and_Austria
Quote
Germans view Schlager as their Country Music and in fact American Country and TexMex are both major elements in the Schlager culture (Is This the Way to Amarillo is regularly played in Schlager contexts, usually in the English original).

Here's a classic you may have seen before. :doge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP9Wp6QVbsk

Man, my Youtube recs are gonna look real weird. :lol
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mupepe on July 26, 2016, 08:14:40 PM
Oh dammit. I'm going to be on YouTube for the next couple of hours. This is awesome. I had it on while doing my first Duolingo lesson.

Die Frau, Der Mann. Ich bin ein Mann. Ein Mann und eine frau und Brot und Wasser
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on August 03, 2016, 12:55:42 AM
Schools starts again today, 5 hours of Danish every week after work. Pfff.

Im on the last module so I could be "done" by Christmas, but I sure don't feel ready, really need to step up my game.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: archnemesis on August 03, 2016, 03:18:28 AM
Are you using Danish in your everyday life? Attending classes won't be enough to learn the language.

Have you tried listening to public service radio? In Sweden we have news shows made for beginners. You could also borrow novels in simplified language from your local library.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on August 03, 2016, 03:23:10 AM
Nope, don't need it. Talk to my wife in Danish sometimes and my baby (and her family). Hard to learn in a country where you don't need to speak the language really.

Reading is not a huge problem really, it's more talking etc. We watch Danish tv and tv with Danish subs all the time. Like the subs are always on no matter what we watch so I'm reading a lot.

I can definitely feel I learned a lot in two years, but I just want to be fluent.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mupepe on January 01, 2017, 03:36:39 PM
So I think my German has gotten to the point that I really need to start being around the language to progress.

So I'm looking for recommendations on news sources or something I can subscribe to on Facebook. Also any TV shows I can easily access on YouTube or something?
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Rufus on January 01, 2017, 06:38:26 PM
So I think my German has gotten to the point that I really need to start being around the language to progress.

So I'm looking for recommendations on news sources or something I can subscribe to on Facebook. Also any TV shows I can easily access on YouTube or something?
The oldest and I think most watched news show on TV:
https://www.youtube.com/user/tagesschau  (https://www.youtube.com/user/tagesschau)

Popular science with fancy animations. Sadly went English only a while ago, but there are still a lot of German videos:
https://www.youtube.com/user/KurzgesagtDE  (https://www.youtube.com/user/KurzgesagtDE)

Arte's Mit Offenen Karten. In-depth geopolitics. French dubbed over in German, which might be confusing (the host died recently :'():
http://ddc.arte.tv/alle-folgen

Deutsche Welle have their own learning section:
http://www.dw.com/de/deutsch-lernen/s-2055
http://www.dw.com/en/learn-german/s-2469 (same section in English)
http://www.dw.com/de/31122016-langsam-gesprochene-nachrichten/a-36960294 (slow and clearly enunciated news, with transcripts)

Found a Quora thread with many more, including Youtube channels focused on teaching:
https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-of-the-best-resources-online-to-learn-German


Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Rufus on January 01, 2017, 07:34:37 PM
Youtube would probably be the best resource for colloquial German, but I know all of two German Youtubers by name. Never actually watched any of their videos so I can't give any recommendations. :shaq2

H-have fun going through this list, I guess? (http://i.imgur.com/G36Lf41.png)
https://socialblade.com/youtube/top/country/de

Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mupepe on January 01, 2017, 07:51:07 PM
Thanks guys! I chose news because I wanted to start seeing some things from different perspectives and the wide range of exposure to different topics and vocabulary through news. That was my thought process at least. I'm almost done with Duolingo but for awhile I haven't felt like any skills besides vocabulary have progressed.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on January 01, 2017, 11:26:49 PM
News is a great source but if you get bored of that check out hobbyist stuff in German like German gun/car fan sites and stuff
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on January 02, 2017, 11:50:01 AM
If you're going to use genki, and you're learning via self study, you'll have to use external sources. Genki is made for university students. Not self learners. It has homework and stuff. And homework is hard to do if you're using a university textbook outside of a class setting. For this reason, you need to use outside help to check your homework for you.

I highly suggest this site to use to check your homework via Genki. Or for people like Mupepe who feel they should be around their target language more.

http://lang-8.com

What I wrote on lang8 earlier:

Quote
6. If you want to practice writing and reading your target language (any language), join Lang-8 and Skype.

http://lang-8.com/

It supports multiple languages. It's a social network meets language study. You make friends with natives of your target language. The point is you write something in your target language, and one of your native friends who knows that language corrects what you wrote and makes suggestions. Then you help people learn your native language. It's a give and take process. Some people (like me) write what what they're thinking in their native language so someone trying to learn English can read what I'm writing and then read the Japanese version I wrote. That way they can compare and help themselves too and we can help each other get better. It's an amazing resource. You can use Lang 8 with Genki if you get Genki. Genki is made for a classroom setting and one of the things about that is that there's homework to be graded. You obviously can't grade your own homework on your own. So one way to use Lang 8 is writing your Genki homework in Lang 8 and having someone correct it. The main issue with Lang 8 is it is entirely dependent on that persons level of language. We obviously all don't use the same rules and styles of the same language, but it's generally an amazing resource no matter what language you're learning.

Skype will allow you to talk directly to natives who speak your target language. There are programs on the internet that people do and speak to each other to help listening comprehension, speed, vocab, whatever.

As for learning kana words vs kanji I suggest learning kanji first.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: VomKriege on January 05, 2017, 11:10:36 AM
So how good DuoLinguo is really ?

I tried it today and will continue and do my best with constant effort for Italian : I have some terrible experience doing german in school, I think I'm really bad at accentuating the correct syllabe and keeping all that info in mind because French accentuate the end one in most cases, so I wanted to do something that is fairly familiar by virtue of common roots and where pronunciation is not an issue.

DuoLinguo seems very well done and free but I guess at some point I will have to supplement it with something more beefy, at the very least an exercice book (or classes but those cost $$) on top of using films and/or books for immersion ?

Would be interested to hear some feedback on this.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Samson Manhug on January 05, 2017, 11:15:17 AM
Theoretically duolingo can make you fluent enough to translate written documents. That's the point and why they bother teaching people for free. Obviously verbal fluency will require supplementation with actual people. It's my favorite program/app I've ever used, though. Better than Pimsleur tapes, Rosetta Stone, military proprietary language learning software, etc.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: VomKriege on January 05, 2017, 11:22:07 AM
That's really fascinating, what a wonderful world  :heartbeat
I'll try doing this for a few weeks, can't hurt and let's you learn some core before getting really serious if possible.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Samson Manhug on January 05, 2017, 11:35:19 AM
I should add that they want people to translate written documents because they present it to you as education and then sell those translations. #worthit
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: VomKriege on January 05, 2017, 11:39:45 AM
I should add that they want people to translate written documents because they present it to you as education and then sell those translations. #worthit

Can't get nuthing for nuthing I guess...
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Samson Manhug on January 05, 2017, 03:20:46 PM
Duolingo gives you a placement test.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on January 05, 2017, 03:36:16 PM
In regards to duolingo/lang8, at what level should I jump in?

Never used duolingo but for Lang8 any level so long as you're writing actual Japanese and not romaji.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on January 05, 2017, 03:42:23 PM
Install Japanese IME into Windows.

http://www.yesjapan.com/video/pages/install-japanese-windows-7-vista.html

Anyways, don't have time for language studies anymore with all of my free time invested in my art/working out. I try to keep it up though by reading nhk and the occasional skype. I need to keep it up to par for when I actually visit Japan next year. I really want to get to N2 level which is an advanced level but that requires a lot more time than I have now. It really sucks, but I've accomplished my goal I guess.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: chronovore on January 06, 2017, 04:59:46 PM
Speaking of media like movies and tv shows that give you exposure to the language.

Some movies are not so good for this. Or tv shows. I tried to watch some fancy German show but there was very little dialogue. Basically sometimes film makers try to use the cinematography to tell the story instead of lots of talking, but that's not very good if you wanna hear people speak the language. :doge

I thought Aguirre The Wrath of God was such a movie. Not very little dialogue, but not very heavy on dialogue either. You want something chatty to get some exposure to a language.

I saw season 1 and 2 of a French TV series Engrenages (Spiral). That was reasonably chatty and suitable to get some exposure. Especially because there's some cursing as well.

But it's a pain having to search for stuff like this, I have to say. Getting exposure to Japanese has been easy. French, a bit more difficult and German a lot harder.
Yeah, anime is not great for learning Japanese, because it's difficult to parse sounds when we can't see someone's speaking mouth. Many SF anime, such as Evangelion, also use pseudoscientific Japanese terms which don't have any common use-case.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: tiesto on May 21, 2017, 11:40:26 AM
Anybody here have any good recs for a 'learn Japanese' podcast series? A number of my coworkers are eager to help me practice and I have a 45 minute commute, so this would be the perfect time to pick it up again (I took 2 years worth in college but that was so long ago).
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Rufus on May 21, 2017, 06:34:11 PM
I wouldn't memorize sentences, no. :doge

Standard phrases are useful as fallbacks, but to be creative, you're going to need a solid grasp on grammar (and vocab) to do anything, so grab those conjugation charts and do the work. Feels redundant to say, but you asked...
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Valkyrie on May 21, 2017, 09:20:32 PM
bu, you don't have to be formal with ないです。Even in formal speech, I can't say I ever hear people use the polite form.

I've done sentences memorization a lot, but it's probably different when you live in the country whose language you're learning, since it works well with immersion. After learning the grammar etc, of course.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: chronovore on May 21, 2017, 09:50:56 PM
So ではありません is the most formal way to write a "negation sentence" (やまださんは学生ではありません) and じゃないです is the most colloquial way to write it.

 You can also mix it so it can go じゃありません or ではないです since じゃ is a contraction of では and ありません/ないです mark the same "not" sentence.

 But if I were to practically go around in Japan, which would I use more often? My books contradict which is the most common, is it safer to just go around using the most formal way possible of speaking sentences? Or is that too stiff?

I'm usually using じゃないです most commonly. I use ではありません only when I'm in opposition to someone else, because I become stiffly polite when I'm angry. Then it all falls apart if I get pushed past that that, when it becomes 「やけどそうじゃないやろう、このfuckingやろう。ああ?どうやこの態度?」but at that point there's no actual communication happening.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Mupepe on April 19, 2018, 10:14:22 AM
Rufus recommended me some German shows earlier in this thread.  Those really helped me with my German practice.  They were pretty entertaining to boot.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: EVOL on April 19, 2018, 11:15:41 AM
Rufus recommended me some German shows earlier in this thread.  Those really helped me with my German practice.  They were pretty entertaining to boot.

I better check those out, I've been interested in picking up a new language for shits and giggles.

I can speak Korean and English perfectly fluently, while my Japanese is decent - N1 level on the JLPT test, so I thought it'd be interesting to check out German. My interest in German is pretty much limited to Einstuerzende Neubauten's music and German philosophy (which I'm obviously not going to be able to read comfortably in this lifetime). I don't really give a shit about learning any other language though, so it's probably my best choice for now.

Assimil seems to be recommended a lot, does anybody have any experience with it?
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: chronovore on April 19, 2018, 12:09:23 PM
N1 level on the JLPT test

 :o :o :o
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: EVOL on April 19, 2018, 12:30:36 PM
N1 level on the JLPT test

 :o :o :o

Learning Japanese by using Korean as a reference language is pretty much playing on very easy mode :jawalrus

Other than mastering the 使役 and 受動 forms there weren't really too many grammatical barriers to go through. Memorising Kanji is a bitch, but learning traditional Chinese characters is a part of the Korean public school curriculum though, so I have a lot less trouble memorising/writing them than what the average Westerner would.

It probably helped that I was already bilingual, I seemed to pick it up a bit quicker than my peers despite having absolutely no interest at first and not taking classes seriously at all. Still took me 3 years tho
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on February 25, 2020, 05:36:52 PM
Started Assimil French and began the immersion stage. A+ quality as always and it's such a foot off my neck to learn a language with a Latin alphabet. French pronunciation is different in that words don't sound how they're written but listening repeatedly and playing back everything I hear helps with that.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on February 25, 2020, 08:08:08 PM
https://youtu.be/_taIILb7gxg

When I taught myself Japanese and did Assimil I translated every single word in to English and back into Japanese to instill kana and kanji memory. With French I feel like, I don't have to do that. Although it's passive, it's also still a challenge.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Raist on February 26, 2020, 05:11:04 PM
French pronunciation is different in that words don't sound how they're written

I always find it funny. It doesn't sound how it's written from a non-french speaker perspective. But it's overall extremely consistent.

Tell me, which one of these sounds like how it's written:

Enough
Through
Though
Borough
Plough

English pronunciation is the worst :rage
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on February 26, 2020, 05:12:10 PM
I agree.

I decided to drop Assimil French. It's not clicking the way the Japanese course did. I'm doing a different immersion program.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Raist on February 26, 2020, 05:15:05 PM
My favourite when english friends/colleagues go on about "bu-bu-but why do you guys have words with so many letters you don't even pronounce  :'("

Oh yeah? Explain "Leicester" or "sword" to me motherfucker :bolo
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Raist on February 26, 2020, 05:21:49 PM
Yeah well I don't live in the 1200's now do I.


spoiler (click to show/hide)
Not until Brexit fully hits at least.
[close]
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on February 27, 2020, 01:26:45 PM
I switched from Assimil to FSI's course. It works far better for me and course is utterly fantastic.

Starting with French Phonology.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Raist on February 27, 2020, 01:56:21 PM
Good luck with "r". Apparently it's one of the most difficult things to pronounce right. People tend to go for the Spanish or German version, which isn't quite right.


And, everyone's favourites, "an/en" "on" and "in/un/im".

Although it's funny when Brits tell me "an/en" is really hard to pronounce, cause it's really close to the sound in "can't". Following the British English pronunciation, that is.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on February 27, 2020, 01:58:03 PM
What's the difference with the French r?

Oh, by the way. Il est midi. :)
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Raist on February 27, 2020, 02:12:34 PM
It's hard to explain. It's closer to the German "ch" (as in "ach") but softer, and at the same time more vocalized.

There's probably a million videos on youtube "teaching" it.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on February 27, 2020, 02:23:48 PM
This channel might be one of the greatest language learning resources I've ever seen.

There's a super easy series

https://youtu.be/fq_4V-Ia1z0

And then a regular series where they talk to French people about politics and philosophy that's more advanced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrpy2CCnJR0

Then there's an entire channel with free French cinema.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXKszDaz-rfXCrXWxWd0KROb4X32Ywwqu

The amount of learning resources available to me when learning French is an ocean compared to what I had when learning Japanese.

Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Raist on February 27, 2020, 02:38:14 PM
If you want a super technical explanation on the French "R" (or Rs as the title says, since there are some very subtle variations), there you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD1BUwC_0yk

Bonus points for the cliché pedantry - this guy has to be the Frenchiest of French dudes on Youtube  :lol
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on February 27, 2020, 09:26:30 PM
French is such a rhythmic language.

Take the following sentence.

Je vais déjeuner.

It's simple and means something as basic as I'm going to lunch but basically every syllable rhymes. It has such a nice flow and said normally, or fast in other words, it sounds like poetry.

I can only imagine french poetry. Much less french hip hop. I imagine it sounds amazing.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: TEEEPO on February 27, 2020, 09:55:24 PM
(https://video-images.vice.com/articles/58ef6567db85c76446efadf3/lede/1492084191479-Screen-Shot-2017-04-13-at-124842.png?crop=1xw%3A1xh%3Bcenter%2Ccenter&resize=2000%3A*)
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Raist on February 28, 2020, 04:03:19 AM

Much less french hip hop. I imagine it sounds amazing.

There you go. Probably the most successful and influential French hip-hop singer. Born in Sénégal tho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO7qzttOphM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIZGNAF1j00
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Raist on February 28, 2020, 06:38:27 AM
people that fetishize the french language :comeon

 :umad
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on February 29, 2020, 02:01:37 PM
Wow. French is such a logical language. For example, I thought Raist's name was Ray-st all this time. After doing French Phonology course for FSI I now know it's likely just pronounced Rays or Ray. :obama Not sure yet as I haven't gotten to st enders.

Also FSI is fantastic.
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Raist on February 29, 2020, 02:26:06 PM
Well, yes and no. It would be pronounced that way if it were French, but it's from Dragonlance so even in French the "st" is pronounced.

Although it's more likely to be pronounced as "Rest".


Fun kind of related fact, the circumflex accent has in many cases in Modern French replaced an "s" before a consonant.

Forest > Forêt

Hospital > Hôpital

It still however remains in words derived from those, like "déforestation" or "hospitalité".
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Himu on February 29, 2020, 02:31:26 PM
é, ez, er, ais all sound the same. So logical.

Vous, ou, mou, joue, doux all have the same OOH sound in the ou. Contrast with English: south, you, mouth. Like Japanese, French appears to be logical in contrast with English. :hitler
Title: Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
Post by: Nintex on August 01, 2020, 05:51:56 AM
You should all try hard mode and learn Dutch

Jullie zouden allemaal een hogere moeilijkheidsgraad moeten proberen en Nederlands gaan leren.