THE BORE

General => Video Game Bored => Topic started by: archie4208 on July 26, 2013, 07:25:38 AM

Title: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: archie4208 on July 26, 2013, 07:25:38 AM
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130725006767/en/Activision-Blizzard-Announces-Transformative-Purchase-Shares-Vivendi

Quote
For the quarter, Activision Blizzard was the #1 independent publisher in North America and Europe combined, including accessory packs and figures, with the #1 and #2 best-selling titles year-to-date– Skylanders Giants™ and Call of Duty: Black Ops II.¹ Additionally, Blizzard Entertainment’s World of Warcraft® remained the world’s #1 subscription-based MMORPG, ending the quarter with approximately 7.7 million subscribers.²

Lost another 600k subscribers in 3 months (http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/08/world-of-warcraft-subscribers-drop-by-1-3-million-in-three-month/) and down from its peak of 12 million subscribers. (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20018886-1.html)

F2P will happen before 2015.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 26, 2013, 07:45:30 AM
WoW is dying = still number 1, 9 years after launch

 :patel
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: brob on July 26, 2013, 08:48:44 AM
Wasn't blizzard working on a new MMO? Titan? what's up with that? beyond the expected blizzard thing of restarting development a million times behind the scenes...
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 26, 2013, 08:50:18 AM
Good, MMOs need to die as quickly as possible.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: archie4208 on July 26, 2013, 09:05:32 AM
Wasn't blizzard working on a new MMO? Titan? what's up with that? beyond the expected blizzard thing of restarting development a million times behind the scenes...

Restarting from scratch and delayed until 2016. (http://venturebeat.com/2013/05/28/blizzard-delays-unannounced-mmo-until-2016-resets-whole-project-exclusive/)
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: magus on July 26, 2013, 09:59:08 AM
Good, MMOs need to die as quickly as possible.

so the almighty era of digital TCG can begin

:bow http://hextcg.com/ :bow2
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 26, 2013, 10:09:49 AM
I guess it's good that fewer people want to "play" that crap every year, but THE DISEASE IS STILL INSIDE THEM
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Phoenix Dark on July 26, 2013, 01:55:11 PM
Yup, nearly all my old guild mates moved to LoL.

I'll be back the minute it goes f2p, just to see if that can revive the game. These 5 level expansions aren't doing anything to help the game, all they do is stretch out a slow death.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 26, 2013, 03:11:29 PM
And Guild Wars 2 continues to increase in players on the cusp of releasing in China/Asia. :smug
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Tucah on July 26, 2013, 03:27:15 PM
I just want F2P WoW, I'm back in if that happens.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 26, 2013, 03:35:37 PM
And Guild Wars 2 continues to increase in players on the cusp of releasing in China/Asia. :smug

That's like being excited about the spread of herpes or something.  You're just sick in the head.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Rahxephon91 on July 26, 2013, 03:43:13 PM
I just want F2P WoW, I'm back in if that happens.
Yeah I'll install it, play for 20 mins, and then never play again like every f2p mmo I've tried.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Steve Contra on July 26, 2013, 03:45:43 PM
Etiolate has angrily waited 9 long years for WoW to become slightly less popular than it was.  Let him bask in this moment.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 26, 2013, 03:45:48 PM
Actually, what is your deal with MMOs Triumph? Is it the people playing them? You should probably transition to MOBA hate since that's where all the MMO rejects and asperfits went.

Is it just the existence of a game where you play with others?
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 26, 2013, 03:57:17 PM
Is it just the existence of a game where you play with others?

Yes.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 26, 2013, 04:17:26 PM
You have to have bothered to play an MMO to be a "reject"  :jawalrus

It's a lot of things.  1, being forced to play with others.  2, the fact that it preys on weak willed, dumb people to make shit tons of money. 3, disgusting stuff like your dumb fucking rabbit creatures in gw makes my rage meter fly off the handle. 4, the fact that you can "play" the games just by crafting and not engaging in combat in any sort of way and that's seen as acceptable.

Probably my biggest motivating factor, though, is that people think that while they're "playing" these games, that they're engaging in social behavior that in any conceivable way can substitute for actually interacting with, you know, people in society.  Boo hoo, "I'm a nerd and people are meeeeeeeean," well tough shit bitches.  Life is tough all over, roll with the fucking punches.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 26, 2013, 04:54:23 PM
Asurans are beautiful. You hush your mouth.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on July 26, 2013, 05:01:28 PM
no he's right

those rabbit goblin gnome fucks are creepy

everytime you post a screenshot of one I shudder and thank my lucky stars I don't play Guild Wars 2
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 26, 2013, 05:04:01 PM
(http://i.minus.com/iFeDu2XAe1dms.gif)
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on July 26, 2013, 05:07:10 PM
:holeup
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: D3RANG3D on July 26, 2013, 05:08:32 PM
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Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: SantaC on July 26, 2013, 05:15:15 PM
Good, MMOs need to die as quickly as possible.

this. dont see the charm in spending hours and hours for games that cant end.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Rahxephon91 on July 26, 2013, 05:50:56 PM
Good, MMOs need to die as quickly as possible.

this. dont see the charm in spending hours and hours for games that cant end.
So they should die because you can't?

I'm not sure whats hard to get about "do stuff in a rpg world with friends and whatnot"
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: SantaC on July 26, 2013, 05:54:09 PM
Good, MMOs need to die as quickly as possible.

this. dont see the charm in spending hours and hours for games that cant end.
So they should die because you can't?

I'm not sure whats hard to get about "do stuff in a rpg world with friends and whatnot"

what's so great about wasting a monthly fee for something that goes on forever.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Himu on July 26, 2013, 06:00:40 PM
(http://i.minus.com/iFeDu2XAe1dms.gif)

 :trash :trash :trash
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Trent Dole on July 26, 2013, 06:11:47 PM
Lol, monthly fee. The future for the genre is full f2p with a optional premium for extra shits. The failed Star Wars mmo turned into that iirc and PSO2's had that model in place since launch (a shame its arrival in other regions is taking 5ever).
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Rahxephon91 on July 26, 2013, 06:16:18 PM
Good, MMOs need to die as quickly as possible.

this. dont see the charm in spending hours and hours for games that cant end.
So they should die because you can't?

I'm not sure whats hard to get about "do stuff in a rpg world with friends and whatnot"

what's so great about wasting a monthly fee for something that goes on forever.
Whats so great about spending $60 on games that last 5 hours?

I don't know, but if I'm having fun it won't matter.

I don't really get your argument. Does the fact that the game never ends and you never "beat" it disheartening enough to put you off the game? I guess, but I've never looked at it that way. I don't really care about beating the game, I'm not someone who finds enjoyment in say plantimuing a game. I simply have as much fun as I want with the game and then call it a day. That's really how I look at it. When I got done with an MMO and consider my time with it over it's mostly because I've reached the level cap, got the gear I wanted, and/or done basically all the content I wanted to do. If there's more content to do that's fine, I've probably done all I wanted and got my money worth. So the fact the game didn't end was fine, I beat what I wanted. 

And simply put playing WoW as my first MMO back when it came out was amazing. I was exploring this amazing looking world filled with  lots to see, it really felt like adventure. Sure there were some lame quests, but there were many quests that were pretty cool like any quest driven rpg. Doing quests or dungeons was exciting and fun, I don't think I've had more fun with a "co-op" experience then going through a dungeon with people I'm friends with or just random people.

And all those things I liked about WoW have been the other MMOs I've played and no I've never "beaten" them. I didn't even get close to beating WoW. I did'nt care about having a "job" in a guild and once I was satisfied with how much content I had seen, I was done and I had a pretty amazing experience. I liked being in this world and interacting with other players to do shit.

Paying a monthly fee sucks, but it's not like every mmo has it now. The repetitive combat can suck, but mmo's are making strides there to. I don't get why MMO's suck so much, espicailly when the genre has a lot of potential.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on July 26, 2013, 06:32:26 PM
does your character suffer from some magickal affliction that makes him appear hideous or does the game just look like that

cool Seifer cosplay tho
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 26, 2013, 06:58:56 PM
(http://i.minus.com/iFeDu2XAe1dms.gif)

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Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: D3RANG3D on July 26, 2013, 08:48:45 PM
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Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Phoenix Dark on July 26, 2013, 11:39:49 PM
I've played enough vidyagamez with Triumph to know he'd love WoW - or would have, if he played 5-7 years ago. He can huff and puff all he wants but I'm 100% certain he would have been balls deep in Karazhan, Naxx, or hard mode Ulduar.

 :patel
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Freyj on July 26, 2013, 11:46:36 PM
Mists was considerably better than Cata (and the later part of Wrath), but it had to happen eventually.

Here's hoping EQ Next actually pans out. I haven't really felt "connected" to an MMO since Ulduar.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Phoenix Dark on July 27, 2013, 12:00:37 AM
Mists was damn good but I still lost all interest in it shortly before hitting raid status. To me WoW is a social game, and most of my friends have been gone since the final (dead) months of WOTLK. I probably completely burnt myself out during that expansion, from Naxx to hard mode Ulduar to the Crusades.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Freyj on July 27, 2013, 12:11:04 AM
It's still possible to find decent people in WoW, it's just a lot more difficult.

I dunno, a lot of the people I played with in Beta / Vanilla were god damned terrible at the game, but I enjoyed their company. Now I just play with 1 or 2 real life acquaintances and lose interest after a month or so.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 02:30:45 AM
It doesnt help that you have all this cross server crap now from a community point of view
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 27, 2013, 03:02:12 AM
The cross-realm/virtual realm stuff is to keep the community going though. It's basically server merging without the bad publicity. There are way too many servers for the population they now have. Out of that 7.7 million number, you have about 60% of that which is in Asia. You take that 3 or so million western audience and split it between Europe and America, and then split it by server, of which there are 200+ servers in America alone. That's spreading everyone too thin. People are bailing on the dying servers for the top five servers in population. Blizz had to do something.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Phoenix Dark on July 27, 2013, 03:19:50 AM
god dammit... *pulls out pipe, puts feet on computer desk*

Nothing was better than logging into my account and getting multiple whispers from folks asking me to tank something. Likewise when I saw a badass healer log in I'd whisper "hey wanna heal x?" Pretty soon you knew enough folks on the server to recognize who was good, who was bad, who was making progress, which guild was failing, who left which guild, etc. I could ask in chat who wanted to do an instance at 2AM and get a ton of responses because people knew I was a damn good tank, and our run would be smooth as fuck/no drama.

Now it's all cues. Sure I love the idea of being able to do an instance whenever I want, without having to wait hours for people to respond...but those ques helped kill server identity. I'd love to see more focus on doing shit with people on your own damn server. Do as many ques as you want...but awarding people for creating groups or raids that are all from your server would definitely help.

I remember when your server actually meant something. Being the top raid guild, or aiming to become the top raid guild, felt like awesome. I never was a pvp guy but would do some just to help out the Alliance. I knew some Horde members by name, to the point where if I heard they were in a Alterac Valley I'd que up just to face. Shit was real yo.

TLDR: I say this shit in every WoW thread
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 27, 2013, 03:31:39 AM
Yeah, but if you don't put in that sort of LFX tool into your MMO then people complain. There's got to be a good balance between the automated version that WoW has and simply having nothing but general chat spam. A LFG tool is no different in concept than spamming LFG in chat, it's just more quietly efficient.

I still prefer doing guild runs or friend runs only.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 03:43:23 AM
Lfx is a crutch as you said etiolate.

It creates a forgetable experience and destroys social interaction.

In Vanilla and Tbc it seemed like i knew so many players of both sides by name, and they knew me. Awesome stuff. There were hated guilds and crappy players you avoided. Basically everything PD said but i was a healer :)


Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Phoenix Dark on July 27, 2013, 04:04:01 AM
LFx is fine, I just wish there was an option that encourages you to play with people on your server. More justice points for groups with at least 4 people from the same server, for instance, or more XP.

I remember competing with other tanks for spots in raids, before I joined a raid guild. Every week felt like a hard fought contest where you tried to do as many instances as possible, preferably with people from top guilds. And by Wed or Thurs you'd get that anticipated whisper. "Hey, x recommended you. Wanna be off tank for our 25 man raid tonight?" Bam. And later when I was established and in a position to invite people to raids, I'd recommend folks who I had good experiences with, giving them a shot.

One of the best times to make your mark was during those daily instance runs. The new one would be announced at like 2AM or 3AM, don't remember, and everyone would be online to do it right quick. I'd almost always get in a badass group for it, get my justice points, and head to bed; it was my ritual for ages lol. Sometimes I'd get on too late to join a good group, and be stuck with scrubs...but even that was fun.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 27, 2013, 04:33:55 AM
Lfx is a crutch as you said etiolate.

It creates a forgetable experience and destroys social interaction.

In Vanilla and Tbc it seemed like i knew so many players of both sides by name, and they knew me. Awesome stuff. There were hated guilds and crappy players you avoided. Basically everything PD said but i was a healer :)

uh I didn't say that

I said its an efficient version of LFG chat spam, but that it can get out of hand when it becomes too efficient, or better put too automated.

It gets to a point where people act like if you're talking to your group then it means something has gone wrong because the experience has become so automated for everyone for so long. You log in, click some menus, and proceed through the all too familiar steps of the dungeon encounter. This puts social interaction on the negative side of a very binary view of gaming.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 06:21:25 AM
You guys do realize that you're bitching about "the game" making it easier for you to "play" it as a negative, right?

Pretty much rest my case right there.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 06:43:42 AM
 ::)
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 06:45:58 AM
Seriously... like, I don't MIND playing games with a few other people.  People I already know and shit.  Early D3 was fun, and later D3 Hellfire ring runs with Contra was some seriously fun shit. 

Playing games to meet people or substitute socializing IRL, tho?  :pacspit
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Rahxephon91 on July 27, 2013, 06:46:17 AM
It would be easier to have a button that does all the moves for you in street fighter and that would suck.

When I came back to WoW and used the cross realm que features and whatnot, it just took away from the social aspect of the game. And dungeon runs became pretty dry and pointless. People didn't talk and it's not like I'd ever talk to these people again either way.

It also didn't help that it seemed to mess with what the playerbase was doing. I started over from the beginning and basically it didn't seem like anyone was out in the world doing those quests. Everybody leveling a new toon just seemed to be running dungeons over and over again, making for a pretty boring climb. So doing that non dungeon and non end game quest content harder and less desirable.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 06:49:37 AM
You're kind of missing the point Triumph, just like drinking beer doesn't mean you're end up a homeless hobo sucking dick for spare change, playing an MMO doesn't mean you will substitute it for real life.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 06:52:13 AM
Sorry, I keep reading "the game has made it easier and more streamlined to PLAY THE GAME and that's a negative"

It's almost like you guys are admitting that playing the game isn't enough to keep, you know, playing the game.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 06:58:12 AM
But it's streamlining over an aspect that is integral to the genre and the appeal of an online world. It is making it more of a grind really.

The social aspect, the alliances, the friendships, the feuds, the haggling, the drama, this is all part of an MMO too. If you strip away that you end up with a Diablo+, which for some people is perfect of course.

You simply cannot understand how monumental it was to do 40 man raids, even to get to the point that you can actually go on a raid was an adventure.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 07:05:32 AM
I have to say though that if you pick it up now, it wouldn't be the same. You missed that special time where this was IT. The people that play it now play different, the systems are different.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 07:05:39 AM
The more unknown people (because I generally tend not to surround myself with fucktards) you interact with the higher the likelihood of me having to put up with a fucktard.  I don't put up with fucktards well.  What you guys are describing as a positive and a selling point for the genre is PRECISELY WHY I don't like it, in addition to the fact that it preys upon weak willed dimwits and has a recurring fee. (although yes, the future of the genre lies in initial cost/f2p + microtransactions, but whatever)

Like, maybe after a long time I'd be comfortable in a guild of nothing but confirmed, competent badasses, but I highly doubt it would be worth it for me to make the effort.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 07:16:04 AM
That's the thing, you could make your own guild. Only let confirmed badasses in that have proven themselves.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 27, 2013, 07:36:31 AM
Sorry, I keep reading "the game has made it easier and more streamlined to PLAY THE GAME and that's a negative"

It's almost like you guys are admitting that playing the game isn't enough to keep, you know, playing the game.

There is a strong element of that and it's one of the attitudes that makes me dislike MMO players in general, but there is more to it than that. Since it's a cooperative, social game, but it's full of people with personality disorders and varying levels of autism, the game sort of does need to be careful how it makes players interact with each other. It could be argued these streamlined, automated LFG tools reduced the need for these troublesome sorts of people to have to learn how interact with others in a meaningful way. You also have the factor of MMOs depending highly on their persistent, living world. This is very different from D3 or any lobby dungeon crawler. People need to be out in that persistent world to help make it feel alive. LFD tool turned the game into a lobby dungeon crawler, removing one of the key advantages of the genre itself.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 07:44:13 AM
That's the thing, you could make your own guild. Only let confirmed badasses in that have proven themselves.

Apparently the content alone isn't worth it, though :P
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 27, 2013, 07:52:30 AM
I think it's more that it's hard to get access to or do some of the content without others/guild. LFR and LFD are attempts at dealing with this issue that have had mixed results.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 27, 2013, 08:02:50 AM
Also, I'm not sure Triumph would like any MMO even if he could avoid the social aspects. The combat of older MMOs is pretty limited, and you don't tear through a ton of mobs like you do in Diablo games. Leveling up, you do one or two mobs at once at the most. Only a select handful of builds can multi-grind and that's only once they get to certain levels.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 08:10:51 AM
Yeah, ew.  I like doing one of two things in arpgs- tossing out a fuckton of dps or crowd control.  Playing a CM wizard in endgame D3 is one of the most fun things ever... simultaneously perma-freezing two bosses, either of which could kill you in 5 seconds flat is fucking awesome.

...shame what they drop is shit tho.   :-\
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 08:32:07 AM
But there is glorious player versus player combat  :rejoice
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 08:34:50 AM
:yuck pvp :yuck
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 08:41:18 AM
Next thing you tell me you also don't like FPS multi :rejoice
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 08:43:26 AM
Nah, not really.  Everyone's either a douche or cheater, what's the point? 

Pretty much the only sort of player on player violence I can get behind is fighting games and, surprisingly, Mario Kart.  That's a nostalgia thing though I think.

The reason Borderlands 2 is so fucking awesome for me is that it's got such a good, meaty pve campaign.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 27, 2013, 09:02:13 AM
modern mmos a little diffrerent tho
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 09:04:54 AM
Thats a pretty narrow view.

Plus how are people douches? Fps multi is about shooting people in the face.

Mario Kart is ok, but there is too much lick involved with the power ups for it to be something you can play online, its only good in splitscreen.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 09:12:11 AM
From what I've been able to figure out, fps multi is about 14 year olds letting you know they're racist and that you suck because you have a job and can't play the game 10+ hours a day.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 09:16:03 AM
If youre good you dont need to play 10 hours a day.

Not being able to play 10 hours a day is more something for loot based games where this creates inequality beyond skill comparison. Exactly the type of games you like!

Also there are things like matchmaking which for a big part negate difference in skills so you are pitted against people that are in your bracket.

Worrying about 14 year olds is weird as you can mute people with a click.

Lot of misinformation man!
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 27, 2013, 09:40:54 AM
I farm other players for loot in WvWvW. Best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Rufus on July 27, 2013, 09:51:42 AM
Lot of misinformation man!
Leave the old man be, he's set in his ways. :D
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 09:54:44 AM
GET OFF MY FUCKING LAWN

I would say that I don't tell you guys how to enjoy your games, but I totally do, constantly

Oh shit wait, mmos aren't really games, so yeah, again, EAT ALL OF THE DICKS
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Rufus on July 27, 2013, 10:41:40 AM
Hey, I don't like MMOs either, but for different reasons (the grind and before f2p the fact that they were sub based). With the exception of raids and very involved crafting (which I don't care about), ARPGs scratch the progression and loot itch much better. Tiered MMO loot sucks. 
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 11:11:18 AM
SO MUCH VINEGAR
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 01:13:16 PM
WoW is just a terrible game all around. Everything about the gameplay mechanics and design were awful.

But you got to experience that terribleness TOGETHER!  WITH OTHER PEOPLE!   :PP
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: fistfulofmetal on July 27, 2013, 02:46:45 PM
I played WoW for about 4 months a 2 years ago. It's not bad. I enjoyed my time overall.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Freyj on July 27, 2013, 02:52:18 PM
It's going to be exceeding difficult for anyone to try to explain the allure of the genre as it was before social interaction went out the window in favor of being able to log in for 30 minutes a day, mark off the checklists, and log out to someone who never experienced it and has no interest in it.

It's not about replacing social interaction in real life, it's about having social interaction be a part of slaying dragons. It's supplementing the gameplay with social interaction in lieu of heavy handed story. Sure, there were fucktards a plenty prior to LFG / CrossRealm / whatever, but there were social consequences for being a fucktard or stealing shit or fucking people over. You needed other people to progress whatever goal you were after, and if you made enough of an ass out of yourself you weren't going to have much luck with that. All of this leads to the formation of guilds and friendships by process of elimination. I can't describe it because there really isn't anything like it anymore, but doing world bosses at 3am with a group of 15 or 20 people that you actually like playing with while in direct competition with guilds and players you don't was crazy amounts of fun.

It's like the difference between going to a bar to watch the Stanley Cup Finals with 4 or 5 friends that you enjoy doing shit with and going to a much shittier bar by yourself surrounded by people constantly trying to stick their dicks in your ears while you desperately try to ignore them and just enjoy yourself.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Himu on July 27, 2013, 03:00:16 PM
I really enjoyed my time with WoW circa 2009. Best mmo I ever played. Not interested in mmos now though. Too much of a time sink, requires too much dedication, and I'm sick of people asking me to join their mmos. No Pancakes, I am not going to play FF11 with you. FUCK.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on July 27, 2013, 03:13:20 PM
I've never played an MMO ever.  I avoid playing MOBAs for the same reason.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Phoenix Dark on July 27, 2013, 03:58:08 PM
It's a fun game, raiding can be some of the best fun you'll have in a game. It can also be the most work/frustrating thing you'll do.

Triumph would have been a hardcore raider, no fucking doubt in my mind.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 04:11:13 PM
Triumph would have been a healer
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 27, 2013, 04:37:33 PM
PSO is a borderline MMO like Guild Wars 1 was. GW1 called itself a CORPG aka Co-operative RPG and that's what I'd call PSO as well. A step up from the interaction of Diablo but not a full blown world.

To go along with what Freyj said, this is an expereince I had last night playing MMOs. In GW2, I was trying to beat the hardest difficulty of The Canidate Trials with a Guildie. A couple of days ago, I did the Trials solo past tier 3 but couldn't beat the last tier alone. He hadn't gotten to the last tier, so we grouped up that day with a couple of others and made our way to the last tier through some trial and error. Last night, he switched to his theif and managed to solo Tier 4. He  then messaged me asking if I wanted to try it to beat it with two people. So I'm like yeah, let's beat this thing.

The Trials are basically a horde mode where you're trying to protect some treasure from wave after wave of enemies spawn. The key part is killing the Plunderer mobs before they get to your treasure, steal some and return back to their spawn. As long as you have treasure left over when the timer runs out then you succeed. The common approach to beating this is to hide behind the spawn point of the Plunderers and pick them off before they reach the treasure or the larger group of enemy mobs. If you go too far in then you'll aggro the other waves of mobs and they'll eventually jack you up. So this is what we were doing. THe Plunderer would spawn, he would use a theif skill to pull them back and we'd burst the Plunderer down. Eventually we'd have to split since the Plunderers have two spawn points. I would try to keep killing the left hand side with brusting and snares/stuns, while he'd kill the right hand side with a pull and burst. We failed the first couple of times, so I decided to change weapon and traits. New weapon didn't work, so I switched back and stopped using a trait that had been creating aggro problems. We still can't beat it, so we try killing the Plunderers on their way back, but this requires bursting them faster. I change off-hand weapons again and use a weapon with an AOE pull. This doesn't prove to be a problem because the only other nearby mob doesn't care if it gets yanked around. This almost works, but everything falls apart at the end. We try a few more times and I actually switch to another class to see if its better at pulling and snaring the Plunderers. We end up doing this for 2-3 hours without success.

If this was some stranger that queued into my group, they'd quit after we failed the second time. They wouldn't have communicated or tried different strategies. Basically, though it was the same game and I had gathered a group conveniently and automatically, it wouldn't  have worked as well because you need someone who you know and who will strategize with you. Even though we didn't succeed, it was enjoyable to try to beat it. The social element matters.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 06:50:09 PM
:what

I wish I could burn this thread and everyone in it to death
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 06:57:58 PM
THANK YOU BASED GROUCH
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 07:08:50 PM
More complex then 40 people?

 :lol

Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 07:09:17 PM
Go back to pokemons
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 07:13:32 PM
Its no surprise to me that the people with very outspoken opinions about mmos have never been in the endgame of one.

While many mmo players have in fact played lots of single player rpgs too.

What have you raided oscar?
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 07:18:49 PM
Ill go out on a limb here and say ive finished more single player rpgs, this gen, then the amount of times you and triumph combined have been on a raid in the endgame of any mmorpg.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 07:23:22 PM
Tldr: you're just repeating what other people say, since you have no experience in it.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 27, 2013, 07:25:47 PM
I don't think it's much of a surprise that most hardcore MMO players have little experience with the single player RPG genre.

This is where the disconnect comes from.  If you've played a ton of more mechanically complex games in the mother genre, playing MMOs is a bit like going from Civ to FarmVille.  The social aspects just can't make up for the staggering drop in complexity in all aspects.

Not really sure single player RPGs are more complex. I grew up with Squaresoft RPGs and moved on to MMOs later. There are some complex, stat crunchy console RPGs, but there's also some real stat crunchy stuff in MMOs.

The really big difference is how quest structure works and the difficulty of telling a heroic narrative in a MMO environment. If you have a villian die for one person it must still exist for the players who haven't beat that villain.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 07:26:31 PM
:umad
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 27, 2013, 07:33:38 PM
You want a list of games I played?
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: brob on July 27, 2013, 07:37:16 PM
If someone dislikes MMOs why would they ever play one long enough to reach the end-game?
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Steve Contra on July 27, 2013, 07:56:17 PM
http://www.thebore.com/forum/index.php?topic=40518.msg1730119#msg1730119 (http://www.thebore.com/forum/index.php?topic=40518.msg1730119#msg1730119)
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 27, 2013, 08:07:16 PM
In other words, oscar has played one MMO and is speaking for all MMOs and MMO players. It's totally cool cuz it's what the cool people do.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: CajoleJuice on July 27, 2013, 08:15:42 PM
From what I've been able to figure out, fps multi is about 14 year olds letting you know they're racist and that you suck because you have a job and can't play the game 10+ hours a day.

says the guy who played d3 about 200 hours the first month
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 27, 2013, 08:24:56 PM
In other words, oscar has played one MMO and is speaking for all MMOs and MMO players. It's totally cool cuz it's what the cool people do.

I've played more than that, but that's the only one I did endgame in, which is what he asked.

Tell me, would you classify yourself as a heavy single player RPG fan?  Surely if I'm wrong, more than half of the MMO players at a hardcore place such as the Bore will be big single player RPG fans, right?

I like single player rpgs, but the ones I've played lately have been western rpgs for the most part. I'm not as heavily into them as say you or tiesto, but I did once really like them. I just had some of them burn me out on the genre. In the past year, I've played Skyrim, Witcher 2, Costume Quest and Bastion. There's simpler single player RPGs among that group. I want to try out Ys and some of the little indie retro titles like Evoland.

In the online arpg territory, I've played D3 beta, T2 beta, and Path of Exile in the past year. In the past year, I've played GW2, Tera, The Secret World and Rift. I guess the amount of single player RPGs to MMOs is a smaller difference than I was expecting, but I've put way more hours into the MMOs.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Phoenix Dark on July 27, 2013, 08:34:03 PM
I've played many western RPGs, many mmos, and I love ARPGs mainly. And I can honestly say the most fun I've had in an "RPG" was in end game WoW. Not gonna get into a dick waving contest over it, everyone likes different shit. But I agree with etiolet that it's rather disingenuous to make blanket statements about MMOs when you have little experience with them, much less with good MMO content.

I'll take hard mode Ulduar over most stuff listed in this thread *shrug*
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Rahxephon91 on July 27, 2013, 08:44:58 PM
MMOs are just as fun as single player rpgs. Thats my stance.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Phoenix Dark on July 27, 2013, 08:48:52 PM
From what I've been able to figure out, fps multi is about 14 year olds letting you know they're racist and that you suck because you have a job and can't play the game 10+ hours a day.

says the guy who played d3 about 200 hours the first month
dat click fest/social client

Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 08:50:31 PM
If someone dislikes MMOs why would they ever play one long enough to reach the end-game?

bu bu bu what about the Oligario KIRBY AIR RIDE defense of, "it gets good after 40 hours, trust me!"
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 08:52:51 PM
From what I've been able to figure out, fps multi is about 14 year olds letting you know they're racist and that you suck because you have a job and can't play the game 10+ hours a day.

says the guy who played d3 about 200 hours the first month
dat click fest/social client

Most of it SOLO, none of it with anyone more than one degree removed with me, and NEVER, fucking EVER in a public game.

Also, guess who just preordered the PS3 version of D3 and GAVE NO FUCKS WHILE DOING SO.  :mynicca
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Phoenix Dark on July 27, 2013, 08:56:33 PM
In 2012 you was getting chased through hell mode
Whispering my crib and I ain't even give you my friend code

(http://i.imgur.com/cmHNN.gif)
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 08:59:01 PM
DON'T EAT THE POUTINE, GROUCH

DON'T DO IT
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 27, 2013, 09:02:38 PM
:snoop
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Himu on July 27, 2013, 09:11:46 PM
Have a great wedding Oscar.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: brob on July 27, 2013, 09:14:54 PM
I don't know what poutine is but internet social media has conditioned me enough that I grimaced at poutine pizza.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Himu on July 27, 2013, 09:23:06 PM
I also gotta agree with Oscar on his analysis of mmo's here.

If we are arguing mechanics I think it kinda falls along here:

Wizardry and its clones (this includes SMT), roguelikes, Infinity Engine games, Diablo 1-3, dungeon crawlers (not to be confused with roguelikes and wizardry-likes, though there is some overlap) -> mmos -> most mainstream rpgs ranging from Square stuff, Nintendo rpgs (though the main story in Poke'mon only), Bioware rpgs, Bethesda rpgs, Obsidian rpgs, about anything mainstream and successful.

I haven't played Ultima games aside from 4 so I can't argue its mechanics.

mmo's main appeal comes out when you're in a group. As a soloist, I find them fairly boring, and just tedious affair, though WoW had good moments as a Rogue where I had to sneak around Alliance places without getting caught, and that was great.

But when we get into story, plot, worlds, those single player rpgs blow mmo's out of the water.. Though games like Diablo and Titan Quest suffer tremendously here.

I think the one thing that mmo's do better than most single player games is the sense of scale and adventure. Traveling in an mmo's world, and finding new places, and the allure of being ABLE to survive making it to a new place is, aside from the social aspect, the only major thing that ever appealed to me in mmo's. I love the sense of scale of mmo's, they do that wonderfully.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Barry Egan on July 27, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
Dude there's poutine PIZZA now.  Gonna die happy, aww yeah.

stuffed poutine man.  don't ask, just order it. 
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Freyj on July 27, 2013, 11:41:05 PM
I don't think it's much of a surprise that most hardcore MMO players have little experience with the single player RPG genre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

This is where the disconnect comes from.  If you've played a ton of more mechanically complex games in the mother genre, playing MMOs is a bit like going from Civ to FarmVille.  The social aspects just can't make up for the staggering drop in complexity in all aspects.

Complexity with regard to coordinating 10/25/40 people versus complexity with a single person. Solitaire vs Hockey. Apples and Orangutans.

And it isn't as though XI is the best example in any case here considering its fanbase is an advocate of slow methodical auto attack based combat systems that allow for heavy conversation breaks mid battle. I've played my fair share of it as well.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: D3RANG3D on July 27, 2013, 11:55:31 PM
 :umad
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 28, 2013, 12:32:32 AM
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_manvxkCj0h1rricdjo1_500.png)
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 28, 2013, 02:31:13 AM
Alright, just one last question, then I have to go pack.  When you play an MMO, what's the best part?  Is it the deep mechanics and/or character growth, the story, or is it the amazing thrill of coordinating with a team to overcome a crazy obstacle?

I suspect it's the latter.  For me, in FFXI, it was the latter.  If it's the latter, you have to understand that that is not only something that has little appeal to single player RPG fans, but actually repels many of them. 

Anyway, I'm more or less off to Canada.  See you fegs in two weeks.

It depends on the MMO. WoW was probably about being first Ally guild on our server to down a raid boss and it was the triumph of finally downing it that was a great high. Along with that, it was pushing for being the first people Ally side on our server to do a successful Bear run on Zul Aman as a friendly PUG. For Guild Wars, it was coming up with PVP builds and then watching those builds become very popular. For LOTRO it was playing with irl friends and hopping about hobbit lands. For GW2, it's a collection of things. I play it mostly for the combat and the world, but it helps a lot of have a great guild to play with which I do. I play The Secret World for the investigation story missions and atmosphere.

Honestly haven't seen shit in a single player RPG that compares to the depth of GW1 builds. And GW2 isn't a bum in that regard either. It's just toned down a good bit and coupled with amazing combat.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 28, 2013, 05:01:11 AM
Fair enough Oscar :) I'm happy you've actually played FFXI so you kind of know whats up, although I'm not sure about end game in FFXI since I never reached that.

 As far as MMO's go I played some FFXI before WoW came out, not too much but enough to understand the game, made it out of the dunes and what not. Then I played WoW on and off for 4 years (Druid), doing major raiding in vanilla and tons of PvP later on. I've also played many other MMO's just to see whats up. Star Wars, Eve etc.

Single player RPG's it's all the major suspects. I dabbled into Baldurs Gate and Planescape as a kid but didn't get far. Played Pokemons on my GB, played most of the Final Fantasies, also most of the Square stuff in the 32 bit days (Xenogears, PE). Actually I played lots of jrpg's then like Lunar, Vandal Hearts. On the western front I was playing Fallout 1 and 2, diablo 1 and 2, Kotor, Jade Empire. This gen it was mostly western games Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout, Witcher etc.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on July 28, 2013, 05:23:53 PM
What makes mmos so good too?

http://mobile.theverge.com/2013/7/28/4565558/eve-online-biggest-space-battle-in-history
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Rufus on July 28, 2013, 05:44:33 PM
Nothing besides maybe Ultima Online produces as interesting stories. I'll never play the thing because its Spreadsheets in Space, but the way people interact there and what you can do (pretty much anything, if you orchestrate it right, it seems) is just fascinating.
Oh and it's subscription based, fuck that as well. Although I hear experienced players never actually pay for it because play-time is a commodity as well.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 28, 2013, 06:01:30 PM
What makes mmos so good too?

http://mobile.theverge.com/2013/7/28/4565558/eve-online-biggest-space-battle-in-history

Yeah, it's really cool reading about that, not quite as cool actually spending the thousands and thousands of hours required to actually be a part of such an event.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: brob on July 28, 2013, 06:34:49 PM
If you want to dedicate your life to excel go into accounting or something, at least there you get paid.
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Phoenix Dark on July 28, 2013, 10:30:10 PM
Excel
:rejoice
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 28, 2013, 10:32:48 PM
Excel is GOTY for every year
:rejoice
Title: Re: Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)
Post by: etiolate on July 28, 2013, 11:47:04 PM
I wouldn't tell someone who hates playing with others to go out and try an MMO, but there is a lot of generalizing of what MMOs are by people. There's a lot of different MMOs and they aren't all WoW.

Also, to emphasize the Massively Multiplayer Aspect and because I've been wanting to post videos:

This first one is my server. I may actually be in this video. It seems real familiar and I recognize a guildie in voicechat. I just can't find myself in the massive amounts of people.

http://youtu.be/3Si-kHeaBEA

These next two are more WuvWuv just to demonstrate the massive fights. Also, all the loot that drops. Farming other players. :rock

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcjDVbkXt4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObbchWZAMes

And yeah some people take WvWvW way too seriously.

This is a dragon fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tjr1jxMc8Fo#t=179s

It is an experience you can't get elsewhere. If you hate playing with others then you won't like it, but the concept of Massively Multiplayer Online is as what the name says. It's not just a shitty RPG you play with your friends. It is massive amounts of people playing together.