Author Topic: FoC's Ron Paul Shitheap: Patel Melts the Internets starting on pg. 24  (Read 539151 times)

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Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1080 on: December 04, 2007, 04:39:40 PM »
Only if you're shopping with gold, or for gold.

GOLD CHAINS, MOTHERFUCKER
IS KNOCKING YOUR LIGHTS OUT
乱学者

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1081 on: December 04, 2007, 04:40:16 PM »
 :lol :lol

364 day shopping season! Brilliant. Someone call the federal reserve, make gay boy their new chairman.

Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1082 on: December 04, 2007, 04:41:55 PM »
if the gold standard is so awesome, why did Mr. T sell his chains after Katrina? HE'S NO FOOL
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FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1083 on: December 04, 2007, 04:43:58 PM »
if the gold standard is so awesome, why did Mr. T sell his chains after Katrina? HE'S NO FOOL


I take everything I said back. We don't need the gold standard. We need the Christmas standard! 354 days of invincible monetary policy.

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1084 on: December 04, 2007, 04:48:13 PM »
Think about it, if we had a Christmas standard, all of our money would be backed up by presents from Santa. We could redeem our paper money with Christmas presents all year long.

Gay Boy

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1085 on: December 04, 2007, 04:49:56 PM »
FoC its less than 29 days till the Iowa caucus. How's Paul looking there?

ARG 11/26-29/07

Romney - 28
Huckabee - 27
Thompson - 14
Rudy - 9
McCain - 9
Paul - 3


He is going to have to increase his polling TEN TIMES in less than 4 weeks to win the caucus.
hib

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1086 on: December 04, 2007, 04:52:14 PM »
FoC its less than 29 days till the Iowa caucus. How's Paul looking there?

ARG 11/26-29/07

Romney - 28
Huckabee - 27
Thompson - 14
Rudy - 9
McCain - 9
Paul - 3


He is going to have to increase his polling TEN TIMES in less than 4 weeks to win the caucus.

I'm too busy planning the Christmas standard.

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1087 on: December 04, 2007, 04:53:46 PM »
Also, he doesnt need to win in Iowa. He just needs to get top 3.

Gay Boy

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1088 on: December 04, 2007, 04:57:57 PM »
Also, he doesnt need to win in Iowa. He just needs to get top 3.
Yet I've just checked. There hasn't been a single poll released in the entire campaign that put paul in the top 3 in either Iowa, NH, MI, or SC. The first 4 primaries.

The closest is NH where is a distant 5th right now.
hib

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1089 on: December 04, 2007, 04:58:45 PM »
Also, he doesnt need to win in Iowa. He just needs to get top 3.
Yet I've just checked. There hasn't been a single poll released in the entire campaign that put paul in the top 3 in either Iowa, NH, MI, or SC. The first 4 primaries.

Then I guess you will clearly win the bet. What are you worried about?

Gay Boy

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1090 on: December 04, 2007, 04:59:39 PM »
Also, he doesnt need to win in Iowa. He just needs to get top 3.
Yet I've just checked. There hasn't been a single poll released in the entire campaign that put paul in the top 3 in either Iowa, NH, MI, or SC. The first 4 primaries.

Then I guess you will clearly win the bet. What are you worried about?
If he loses will you move to his district in texas so he can be your congressman?
hib

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1091 on: December 04, 2007, 05:00:02 PM »
Also, he doesnt need to win in Iowa. He just needs to get top 3.
Yet I've just checked. There hasn't been a single poll released in the entire campaign that put paul in the top 3 in either Iowa, NH, MI, or SC. The first 4 primaries.

Then I guess you will clearly win the bet. What are you worried about?
If he loses will you move to his district in texas so he can be your congressman?

I'm from his district.

Gay Boy

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1092 on: December 04, 2007, 05:07:03 PM »
Also, he doesnt need to win in Iowa. He just needs to get top 3.
Yet I've just checked. There hasn't been a single poll released in the entire campaign that put paul in the top 3 in either Iowa, NH, MI, or SC. The first 4 primaries.

Then I guess you will clearly win the bet. What are you worried about?
If he loses will you move to his district in texas so he can be your congressman?

I'm from his district.
I thought you lived in Austin?

hib

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1093 on: December 04, 2007, 05:15:51 PM »

I thought you lived in Austin?

i do live in Austin. Im from Galveston County.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1094 on: December 04, 2007, 05:28:45 PM »
Also, he doesnt need to win in Iowa. He just needs to get top 3.

 :lol
010

Gay Boy

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1095 on: December 04, 2007, 05:39:58 PM »
Just a few weeks ago he said he'll be in first place. Now top #3. By christmas he'll admit he'll lose by a lot and beg to get out of the bet.
hib

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1096 on: December 04, 2007, 05:52:01 PM »

Mandark

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1097 on: December 04, 2007, 06:38:31 PM »
Wait, is the Constitution backed by a commodity?

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1098 on: December 04, 2007, 08:46:22 PM »
Wait, is the Constitution backed by a commodity?

I dont see your point? Do you use constitutions as money?

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1099 on: December 04, 2007, 08:46:43 PM »
Just the good faith in the government


And we know how well that is turning out.

brawndolicious

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1100 on: December 04, 2007, 09:09:43 PM »
Gold is actually used in computers and other electronics today.  Moving to the gold standard would make the price of gold skyrocket.  Also going to the gold standard gives banks less options when there's an economic crisis (that's logical).

according to wikipedia, we have about $2.3 trillion of gold and $7.3 trillion dollars of currency.  do the math.

foc, how much of your paycheck do you put into buying gold?

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1101 on: December 04, 2007, 09:15:37 PM »
Gold is actually used in computers and other electronics today.  Moving to the gold standard would make the price of gold skyrocket.  Also going to the gold standard gives banks less options when there's an economic crisis (that's logical).

Like print more? lol


according to wikipedia, we have about $2.3 trillion of gold and $7.3 trillion dollars of currency.  do the math.

We are experiencing some very serious inflation. It's going to get alot worse before it gets any better.


brawndolicious

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1102 on: December 04, 2007, 09:18:21 PM »
..banks don't print money.

you think we're going to have ~3 times inflation in the next few years?

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1103 on: December 04, 2007, 09:23:42 PM »
..banks don't print money.


The one that has a monopoly on our currency does.

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1104 on: December 04, 2007, 09:24:42 PM »
you think we're going to have ~3 times inflation in the next few years?

I would say in the next 15 years we are gonna see all of our american dollars overseas come bursting back into our country like a chinese tsunami.

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1105 on: December 04, 2007, 11:12:58 PM »
"The federal reserve turned the concept of the elastic money supply on it's head by expanding the money supply indefinitely. When the economy expands, the fed expands the money supply, and when the economy contracts, it expands the money supply even faster, in an effort to stimulate spending to offset those contractions. It's like a heroin addict trying to kick the habit who shoots up each time any withdrawal symptoms set in. It's a painless way to go, but one unlikely to produce a healthy economy.

So the federal reserve ultimately became nothing more than an engine for perpetual inflation, this precise opposite of what it was originally intended to be. Today the money supply is anything but elastic, as it always expands and never contracts. HAd such a harebrained scheme been proposed at its inception, the concept of the Fed would never have seen the light of day and its proponents would have been laughed at."

-Peter Schiff

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1106 on: December 05, 2007, 02:14:08 PM »
Chomsky Talks about Ron Paul

http://www.geekarmy.com/geekblog/politics/transcript-of-noam-chomsky-on-ron-paul/

Get Pwned

http://yuriybilokonsky.newsvine.com/_news/2007/12/04/1141795-noam-chomskywhile-i-may-not-agree-with-what-you-say-i-will-defend-to-the-death-your-right-to-say-it-a-response


Chomsky operates from the assumption that anyone who doesn't own a business is completely powerless and needs to be babied by the government. The corporations he supposedly despises WANT that to be true. Only in a freer market is it not true.

And the random bit about "contracts enforced by law"...who else is supposed to enforce contracts, exactly?

For someone so smart, Chomsky certainly reveals himself as an idiot from time to time.

Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1107 on: December 05, 2007, 02:22:05 PM »
For someone so smart, Chomsky certainly reveals himself as an idiot from time to time.

Well, that's one thing you have in common.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Except you're not smart.
[close]
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Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1108 on: December 05, 2007, 02:26:57 PM »
What's the melt value of a HOBO NICKEL!!!!

http://www.hobonickels.org/

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FlameOfCallandor

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FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1110 on: December 05, 2007, 02:56:54 PM »
What's the melt value of a HOBO NICKEL!!!!


What is it made out of?

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1111 on: December 05, 2007, 03:06:30 PM »
010

Tauntaun

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:)

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1113 on: December 05, 2007, 03:30:09 PM »

Chomsky operates from the assumption that anyone who doesn't own a business is completely powerless and needs to be babied by the government. The corporations he supposedly despises WANT that to be true. Only in a freer market is it not true.

And the random bit about "contracts enforced by law"...who else is supposed to enforce contracts, exactly?

For someone so smart, Chomsky certainly reveals himself as an idiot from time to time.

i'm hardly a fan of chomsky, but that blog repsonse was distinguished mentally-challenged. most of his rebuttals were ludicrous edge cases -- "what if somebody hates his family and wants to work for 12 hours/day!" wtf. government is there to server the greater interest of society, not the nutball fringe -- which is, of course, what ron paul's tiny but vocal constituency is.

second, how is it NOT true in "a freer market" -- in a wholly free market, the businesses have no need for restraint. businesses accumulate capital and wealth, which directly translates into power, which then translates into private-sector cabalism and corporate aristocracy. teddy roosevelt am cry. government business regulations -- especially anti-monopoly and anti-trust regulations -- came about because of the excesses of ron paul's precious turn-of-the-century profiteering. fuck that noise. the pursuit of wealth should never be a right, and should always remain a privilege. we don't live in an idealistic world where the cult of entrepreneurism and the hand of the free market it worships are somehow moral and operate with only the benevolent interest of greater society in mind -- history has told us otherwise countless times, and american history in particular.

lastly, for a libertarian to argue for "contracts enforced by law" is utterly hypocritical. the enforcement of contracts requires a STRONG CENTRAL GOVERNMENT, because contract enforcement is not a simple police action within a fair society, and will always necessitate something resembling a bureaucracy, because THERE IS NOTHING SIMPLE ABOUT CONTRACT AUTHORING AND NEGOTIATION IN A GLOBAL OR NATIONAL FREE MARKET. jesus! do paulites even live in the real world? get jobs! quit pretending we don't live in a flat society! ENTER THE FUCKING 21ST CENTURY. ANDREW CARNEGIE IS DEAD.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 03:33:02 PM by Professor Prole »
duc

brawndolicious

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1114 on: December 05, 2007, 03:39:39 PM »
the pursuit of wealth should never be a right, and should always remain a privilege. we don't live in an idealistic world where the cult of entrepreneurism and the hand of the free market it worships are somehow moral and operate with only the benevolent interest of greater society in mind -- history has told us otherwise countless times, and american history in particular.

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1115 on: December 05, 2007, 04:10:48 PM »
i'm hardly a fan of chomsky, but that blog repsonse was distinguished mentally-challenged. most of his rebuttals were ludicrous edge cases -- "what if somebody hates his family and wants to work for 12 hours/day!" wtf. government is there to server the greater interest of society, not the nutball fringe -- which is, of course, what ron paul's tiny but vocal constituency is.

Government is there to protect the rights of citizens and to uphold the law. Not to serve the "greater interest."
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" -Benjamin Franklin

second, how is it NOT true in "a freer market" -- in a wholly free market, the businesses have no need for restraint. businesses accumulate capital and wealth, which directly translates into power, which then translates into private-sector cabalism and corporate aristocracy. teddy roosevelt am cry. government business regulations -- especially anti-monopoly and anti-trust regulations -- came about because of the excesses of ron paul's precious turn-of-the-century profiteering.

These "evil" business only give socoety what they ask for. You paint them to be some kind of evil entity that is out to get us all, but what you dont realize is that anyone can own a business and anyone can accumulate wealth. Also most monopolies cannot exist without government intervention. That's basic economics distinguished mentally-challenged fellow.


fuck that noise. the pursuit of wealth should never be a right, and should always remain a privilege. we don't live in an idealistic world where the cult of entrepreneurism and the hand of the free market it worships are somehow moral and operate with only the benevolent interest of greater society in mind -- history has told us otherwise countless times, and american history in particular.
For the most part they do. And I trust the hand of business more than the hand of government any day of the week.


lastly, for a libertarian to argue for "contracts enforced by law" is utterly hypocritical. the enforcement of contracts requires a STRONG CENTRAL GOVERNMENT,
No it doesnt. Considering alot of the states are bigger than coutnries out there, we would be just fine.

because contract enforcement is not a simple police action within a fair society, and will always necessitate something resembling a bureaucracy, because THERE IS NOTHING SIMPLE ABOUT CONTRACT AUTHORING AND NEGOTIATION IN A GLOBAL OR NATIONAL FREE MARKET. jesus! do paulites even live in the real world? get jobs! quit pretending we don't live in a flat society! ENTER THE FUCKING 21ST CENTURY. ANDREW CARNEGIE IS DEAD.

*yawn, anything of substance? No just a bunch of drival "Only the government can steer the good of society"

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1116 on: December 05, 2007, 04:52:53 PM »
Drinky, how do you dress yourself in the morning without the help of the government?

zeergoth

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1117 on: December 05, 2007, 04:54:28 PM »
Oh FoC you certainly live up to your tag.

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1118 on: December 05, 2007, 04:58:44 PM »
If only their was a strong central bureaucracy to decide what we should wear, then we could shave at least 60 seconds of each day. Imagine 7 extra minutes each week! Think of how much time you will have saved in a life time!

Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1119 on: December 05, 2007, 05:01:01 PM »
but then your mother would be out of a job
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FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1120 on: December 05, 2007, 05:03:24 PM »
but then your mother would be out of a job

IF thats what it takes to save a minute each day! I'll do it for the greater good of society.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1121 on: December 05, 2007, 05:18:14 PM »
whats your girlfriend think of ron paul?

I'm guessing he left her to slob on Ron's golden knob
010

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1122 on: December 05, 2007, 05:29:18 PM »
whats your girlfriend think of ron paul?

I'm guessing he left her to slob on Ron's golden knob

With those lyrics you're the next 50.

Flannel Boy

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1123 on: December 05, 2007, 05:59:23 PM »
i'm hardly a fan of chomsky, but that blog repsonse was distinguished mentally-challenged. most of his rebuttals were ludicrous edge cases -- "what if somebody hates his family and wants to work for 12 hours/day!" wtf. government is there to server the greater interest of society, not the nutball fringe -- which is, of course, what ron paul's tiny but vocal constituency is.

Government is there to protect the rights of citizens and to uphold the law. Not to serve the "greater interest."
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" -Benjamin Franklin


You state an opinion as if were a fact and support it with nothing more than a vague quotation. Very convincing! The fact of the matter is that governments do not simply protect basic rights and uphold the law. They also attempt to address the needs, wants, and wishes of the people that they govern. That is why we have public education, public transportation, public health, work place regulations, etc. These are concrete examples of how the government attempts to serve the "greater interest of society". And the majority of the governed likes it this way as seen by the unpopularity of extreme forms of libertarianism.

Mandark

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1124 on: December 05, 2007, 06:48:01 PM »
You know, I never went through a teenage libbie phase.  I think my first exposure to full blown libertarianism was on Politically Incorrect (I did have a Bill Maher phase) when a guest was arguing that the FDA was restricting people's rights to buy spoiled meat.

And they wonder why they don't win elections.

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1125 on: December 05, 2007, 06:48:59 PM »


second, how is it NOT true in "a freer market" -- in a wholly free market, the businesses have no need for restraint. businesses accumulate capital and wealth, which directly translates into power, which then translates into private-sector cabalism and corporate aristocracy. teddy roosevelt am cry. government business regulations -- especially anti-monopoly and anti-trust regulations -- came about because of the excesses of ron paul's precious turn-of-the-century profiteering.

These "evil" business only give socoety what they ask for. You paint them to be some kind of evil entity that is out to get us all, but what you dont realize is that anyone can own a business and anyone can accumulate wealth. Also most monopolies cannot exist without government intervention. That's basic economics distinguished mentally-challenged fellow.

likewise, these evil governments only give societies what they ask for. also, monopolies can and do flourish under "free markets" -- the 1860-1910 period that ron paul so adores saw the rise of big steel, big coal, and big transportation monopolies. hell, in recent times, ms became a power without any government aid whatsoever -- only the complicity of other businesses and partners. not everything is a ma bell story, clown. also, as the hilarious children's movie "ratatouille" demonstrated to those of us with an iq above that of six years old -- the fact that "anyone" can accomplish great things does not in any way suggest that "everyone" can accomplish great thing, and that society ultimately determines greatness and success, not the individual.

fuck that noise. the pursuit of wealth should never be a right, and should always remain a privilege. we don't live in an idealistic world where the cult of entrepreneurism and the hand of the free market it worships are somehow moral and operate with only the benevolent interest of greater society in mind -- history has told us otherwise countless times, and american history in particular.
For the most part they do. And I trust the hand of business more than the hand of government any day of the week.

so you're exchanging one faith for another. some of us trust neither equally.

lastly, for a libertarian to argue for "contracts enforced by law" is utterly hypocritical. the enforcement of contracts requires a STRONG CENTRAL GOVERNMENT,
No it doesnt. Considering alot of the states are bigger than coutnries out there, we would be just fine.

and by what FACTS do you assert this, toolbox? you're a clueless twenty-something who has lived a privileged life. you knoew very little of struggle, or of experience, or of education, or of the very workings of this world, so do not presume you have the authority or experience to assert ANYTHING in lieu of facts.

because contract enforcement is not a simple police action within a fair society, and will always necessitate something resembling a bureaucracy, because THERE IS NOTHING SIMPLE ABOUT CONTRACT AUTHORING AND NEGOTIATION IN A GLOBAL OR NATIONAL FREE MARKET. jesus! do paulites even live in the real world? get jobs! quit pretending we don't live in a flat society! ENTER THE FUCKING 21ST CENTURY. ANDREW CARNEGIE IS DEAD.

*yawn, anything of substance? No just a bunch of drival "Only the government can steer the good of society"

oh, only the very body of american history, and of economics other than that re-interpreted by the discredited fringe!
duc

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1126 on: December 05, 2007, 08:44:30 PM »
so you're exchanging one faith for another. some of us trust neither equally.

I agree, but why are you willing to give government, which throughout history, has a much worse record of abusing people than TeH corporations.

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Official FoC Ron Paul shitheap echo chamber (expires 2/15/08)
« Reply #1127 on: December 05, 2007, 08:46:21 PM »
and by what FACTS do you assert this, toolbox? you're a clueless twenty-something who has lived a privileged life. you knoew very little of struggle, or of experience, or of education, or of the very workings of this world, so do not presume you have the authority or experience to assert ANYTHING in lieu of facts.

Nice non sequitur at the end. Are you saying that states are incapable of ruling themselves? Do you even know what the word state means? "a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government "

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: The Ron Paul Shitheap of repeated FoC ownage and ignorance
« Reply #1128 on: December 05, 2007, 08:51:42 PM »
Quote
likewise, these evil governments only give societies what they ask for. also, monopolies can and do flourish under "free markets" -- the 1860-1910 period that ron paul so adores saw the rise of big steel, big coal, and big transportation monopolies.
And yet look at all these so called evil corporations did for america. They practically built. You think america would have been a superpower if we let the government just run everything?


Quote
hell, in recent times, ms became a power without any government aid whatsoever -- only the complicity of other businesses and partners.

If a business is breaking the law I have no problem with them being punished according to the law. I dont see your point



Quote
also, as the hilarious children's movie "ratatouille" demonstrated to those of us with an iq above that of six years old -- the fact that "anyone" can accomplish great things does not in any way suggest that "everyone" can accomplish great thing, and that society ultimately determines greatness and success, not the individual.

What's your point?





Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: The Ron Paul Shitheap of repeated FoC ownage and ignorance
« Reply #1129 on: December 05, 2007, 09:09:51 PM »
If FoC can copy-paste random articles he finds on the internet, so can I! I don't agree with everything said here, but I think the argument has solid merit.

http://www.erasmatazz.com/library/Politics/AntiLibertarianism.html

A Shot to the Heart of Libertarianism

I have always had a special sympathy for libertarianism. I strongly adhere to the fundamental notion that the government should leave people alone. I'm not so enthusiastic about their adamant opposition to taxation, and I strongly reject some of the wilder positions of the Libertarian Party. And I think Ayn Rand was way wrong. Nevertheless, I've always held some of the basic precepts in some esteem.

However, this morning I had a realization that strikes to the very core of libertarian beliefs. I was in the local public library (a rare event for me, as my own library is superior) and I noticed a little plaque noting that this room of the library had been underwritten by the local Rotary Club. That's nice, I thought. And then I asked myself, "What motivates people to do something like this?" We generally label such actions "altruism" or "idealism" or "philanthropy". But these are individual traits. The Rotary Club is a grouping of people who share a common ideal of helping society. And that's when a new idea struck me -- an idea about a different way of thinking about people and society.

Let's start by thinking of it as "a different kind of patriotism". We usually think of patriotism in almost military terms: are you willing to die for your country? Do you support its wars? Do you refrain from committing treason? The answers to these questions define patriotism as it is commonly thought of. So let's take that idea and shift the meaning. Instead of "love of one's country", what about "love of one's society"? The difference may seem like a quibble, but the Rotary Club's benevolent act is not well-described as patriotic. We might call it "charity", but that term is more often applied to individuals: you give money to a needy person. I'm talking about doing good for society in general.

So let's list some actions that aren't perfectly characterized as patriotic or charitable, but are nevertheless done for the good of society at large. These would include giving money to public institutions such as libraries, schools, hospitals, and arts societies, or volunteering to help with any of the same. They would also include making minor sacrifices for the good of society, such as buying a smaller car with better gas mileage or going to the extra trouble to recycle garbage rather than trash it. It also includes refraining from petty crimes such as littering or honking one's horn excessively. These are all acts with no explicit beneficiary; they are done for the good of society in general.

I think that the closest term to use for this virtue is "public spirit".

My next point is that public spirit is not just a nice thing -- it's absolutely crucial to the survival of society. It's not that we're all going to die if the Rotary Club stops making donations to libraries, or Western Civilization will collapse if you toss that burger wrapper out the car window. It's that public spirit is the social glue that holds society together. When I was in the library, nobody watched me to be sure I wasn't stealing any books -- everybody has enough public spirit to refrain from stealing from libraries. That saves money. I don't carry a gun because I know that all the people in my community are too public-spirited to threaten each other. I don't have bars on my windows or heavy-duty locks on my doors, and what little public art we have is never -- or at least, rarely -- vandalized.

Think of the billions of business transactions taking place every day. How many of those transactions are nailed down with tight security? Not many; it would be too expensive to enforce absolute security in all transactions. Economists call such issues "friction". If there's too much friction, the whole machine grinds to a halt. When I purchase some bolts at the hardware store, the clerk takes my word for their price. It would take an extra 30 seconds to verify -- 30 seconds that is saved because she trusts me. If I wanted to, I could probably shoplift all sorts of stuff -- but neither I nor my fellow citizens do that because we're too public-spirited. American taxpayers are, in general, some of the most upstanding taxpayers in the world -- there's less tax cheating here than anywhere else. That's public spirit, too.

And here's where we get back to libertarianism. It is at its core a profoundly anti-communitarian philosophy. The libertarian exalts the individual over the community. I understand the philosophical basis for this exaltation of the individual. But I point out that this philosophy is fundamentally antithetical to the notion of public spirit.

At this point the libertarian will object that he has nothing against public spirit; if somebody wants to be be public-spirited, they should be free to do so. But the libertarian insists -- at the most fundamental level -- that he should also be free to NOT be public-spirited. One man's public spirit imposes no moral obligation on any other man to be similarly public spirited.

But this notion undermines the very notion of public spirit. In a perfectly libertarian world, any person is free to be public-spirited -- but the person who is NOT public-spirited is perfectly within his rights and deserving of just as much esteem as the public-spirited one. There is no moral onus attached to being selfish. And if selfishness is exalted (as it is in libertarianism), then public spirit withers.

What's the difference between life in a big city and life in a small town? Well, there's a lot more crime in the big city, and there's a much higher cost for security. There are a lot more bars on windows and locks on doors and security cameras in the big city than in the small town. And why is this? I argue that it's because the big city is more libertarian than the small town. In the big city, there is anonymity: small acts both public-spirited and selfish go unnoticed. In a small town, you never know if the person next to you isn't your neighbor. You're more morally accountable in a small town than in a big city, and that's what makes people more public-spirited in small towns than in big cities. And that, in turn, is what makes life in small towns more efficient, more livable, and ultimately happier, than life in big cities.

We need more public spirit among our citizens, not less. We need people to be less selfish and more responsible to society at large. Libertarians would take us in the opposite direction. That is why I sadly conclude that libertarianism is fundamentally wrong.

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FlameOfCallandor

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Re: The Ron Paul Shitheap of repeated FoC ownage and ignorance
« Reply #1130 on: December 05, 2007, 09:19:51 PM »
We need more public spirit among our citizens, not less. We need people to be less selfish and more responsible to society at large. Libertarians would take us in the opposite direction. That is why I sadly conclude that libertarianism is fundamentally wrong.

This is not the antithesis of libertarianism. Public spirit is a good thing and It does not disagree with anything I have advocated.

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: The Ron Paul Shitheap of repeated FoC ownage and ignorance
« Reply #1131 on: December 05, 2007, 09:32:01 PM »
Hey Patel, if you don't have the christmas spirit should we force you to have it? After all the christmas spirit brings cheer to all. If only everyone had it we could be a greater society!!!!

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: The Ron Paul Shitheap of repeated FoC ownage and ignorance
« Reply #1132 on: December 05, 2007, 09:33:21 PM »
What about spirit for the Iraq war? Some people argued that the Iraq war was for the greater good of the public, should we force you to support it?

BobbyRobby

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Re: The Ron Paul Shitheap of repeated FoC ownage and ignorance
« Reply #1133 on: December 05, 2007, 10:33:11 PM »
FoC has a pretty good point.  People are often wary of giving corporations too much power through unchecked capitalism because it has led to things like sweat shops and child labor, which are very valid concerns.   While these are terrible things, they are nowhere on the same scale as some of the atrocities that have occured from giving the government too much power to do what they claim is for the greater good.

There is no moral onus attached to being selfish. And if selfishness is exalted (as it is in libertarianism), then public spirit withers.

I think it just appears this way because us libertarians have to constantly defend selfish actions.  Just because we defend the right to be selfish does not mean we exalt it.  I am nothing but apathetic towards selfish people as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others.

I consider myself a utilitarian.  I believe that in the long term, a relatively libertarian society will achieve the greatest amount of happiness for the greatest amount of people.  I am not a selfish person, and my desire for liberty has very little to do with a desire to make money and become powerful.   I would argue that most libertarians share my views, as the ones I've met are among the most charitable people I know.  Short term utilitarianism, such as socialism, creates precedents which make people miserable in the long run.

Gay Boy

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Re: The Ron Paul Shitheap of repeated FoC ownage and ignorance
« Reply #1134 on: December 05, 2007, 10:42:34 PM »
FoC has a pretty good point.  People are often wary of giving corporations too much power through unchecked capitalism because it has led to things like sweat shops and child labor, which are very valid concerns.   While these are terrible things, they are nowhere on the same scale as some of the atrocities that have occured from giving the government too much power to do what they claim is for the greater good.

Except with govt. if they dont do what we want we can throw them out, we are given that chance every other year. We cant do that with corporations.
hib

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: The Ron Paul Shitheap of repeated FoC ownage and ignorance
« Reply #1135 on: December 06, 2007, 02:03:30 AM »

Except with govt. if they dont do what we want we can throw them out, we are given that chance every other year. We cant do that with corporations.

 :lol :lol Why didnt the jews just throw out hitler if it was so easy?

Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: The Ron Paul Shitheap of repeated FoC ownage and ignorance
« Reply #1136 on: December 06, 2007, 02:11:11 AM »
:wag
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brawndolicious

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Re: The Ron Paul Shitheap of repeated FoC ownage and ignorance
« Reply #1137 on: December 06, 2007, 02:17:15 AM »
wow, it just compared the US government with nazi germany.

bobbyrobby, you make some good points but the the things like gold standard and health insurance make more problems than they deal with.

Mandark

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Re: The Ron Paul Shitheap of repeated FoC ownage and ignorance
« Reply #1138 on: December 06, 2007, 02:36:19 AM »
FoC has a pretty good point.  People are often wary of giving corporations too much power through unchecked capitalism because it has led to things like sweat shops and child labor, which are very valid concerns.   While these are terrible things, they are nowhere on the same scale as some of the atrocities that have occured from giving the government too much power to do what they claim is for the greater good.

First, I don't think comparing the historical extremes is a good way of figuring out policy.  Nobody here is arguing for full-fledged Marxism or some other form of total statism.  If both private capital and the authority of the state can be abused or cause social problems, the best solution is to balance them, and determine on a case-by-case basis what a beneficial, practical policy would be.

Also, to the extent that capitalism hasn't achieved the same level of horrors, it's because governments were restricting the use of violence by private actors.  As soon as corporations can crack heads, they will.  See the violent strike-breaking in the US, or the wars fought by the British East India Company.  You could argue that those companies were becoming governments, in the Max Weber sense, but that's sort of begging the question.  "Only governments cause atrocities, because atrocities require governments."

The point is, accumulated power screws things up in a society.  That power can be accumulated by private or public means.  But a company answers only to its owners.  A democracy answers to everyone under its rule, at least domestically.

Gay Boy

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Re: The Ron Paul Shitheap of repeated FoC ownage and ignorance
« Reply #1139 on: December 06, 2007, 08:02:42 AM »

Except with govt. if they dont do what we want we can throw them out, we are given that chance every other year. We cant do that with corporations.

 :lol :lol Why didnt the jews just throw out hitler if it was so easy?
Did you just compare our elections with Nazi Germany?
hib