Watching Scorcese gangster films is like reading tabloids

[Mandark]

They're good movies and all, but it's all built on the same dual appeal of vicariously enjoying the characters' wealth and status, then seeing hubris and cocaine tear it all down.

Throw in a scene where the middle-aged wiseguys get back together for a reunion tour, and it's an episode of Behind the Music.

[Phoenix Dark]

They're good movies and all, but it's all built on the same dual appeal of vicariously enjoying the characters' wealth and status, then seeing hubris and cocaine tear it all down.

Yeah...that's how gangsters end up.

[Mandark]

Of course, in the right macho subculture, having it all torn down as you flip out is also a marker of status.  Hence Scarface being cited in every rap ablum ever.

[Phoenix Dark]

They certainly love the film but I guess they skip the last 5 minutes

I know you guys hate hate hate Scarface, but I find it entertaining. It's certainly not a classic movie, but when I'm bored I'll watch it for kicks. On the other hand Goodfellas is one of my favorite films.

[etiolate]

I tend to enjoy the less glamorous Gangster films more. Road to Perdition being my favorite gangster flick. 

[Himu]

Scarface *is* a classic movie.

Road to Perdition fucking ruled.

[Phoenix Dark]

Scarface *is* a classic movie.

Road to Perdition fucking ruled.

It's a 7.5/10 type movie to me, but I wouldn't say that in the hood for fear of being lynched.

Some people have criticized Goodfellas for "glamorizing" the gangster lifestyle but I never bought that; it was an accurate portrayal of one of the early aspects of that lifestyle. I certainly don't envy Henry Hill's lifestyle, or any other gangster because the story almost always ends the same way. Scrosese really does a marvelous job portraying the stress and paranoia of the lifestyle in the last 30 minutes of the film. I certainly wouldn't want to live like that. I've got family members who were "gangsters", and I remember how successful they seemed to be. But in the end none of them have the privilege of retiring or working on their 401k.

Interestingly there was a time when gangsta rap put a lot of emphasis on the stress and danger of selling drugs/crime; would anyone seriously envy a life of crime after listening to The Infamous? But now it's all poppin bottles and fuckin hoes...

[Himu]

Scarface is 9/10 for me

[TVC15]

Himuro walking up to a Taco Bell drive in window, stoned out of his mind, just thinking of SCARFACE as the freaked out chick in the window hands him a greasy gordita.

[brawndolicious]

I tend to enjoy the less glamorous Gangster films more. Road to Perdition being my favorite gangster flick. 

yeah.  and I agree with mandark that scorsese ones are just tabloids.  since criminals are by definition anti-social and usually sociopaths, you should show try to show something else that the typical person does not expect.  not these carbon copies in scorsese's movies.

at the gayest level of movie watching (PD's level) you'd look at how much it glamourizes the lifestyle when nobody really gives a hoot.  scorsese ones are mildly interesting in that they show you the real life gangsters (although scorsese did not write the books his movies are based on).

[Himu]

Himuro walking up to a Taco Bell drive in window, stoned out of his mind, just thinking of SCARFACE as the freaked out chick in the window hands him a greasy gordita.

i love you

[Mondain]

What would be the point of witnessing a stable, prosperous gangster and his crew that would face no peril for two straight hours? Where's the entertainment in that?

[TVC15]

Himuro walking up to a Taco Bell drive in window, stoned out of his mind, just thinking of SCARFACE as the freaked out chick in the window hands him a greasy gordita.

i love you

You can eat my burrito any day

[Mandark]

Of course Goodfellas glamorizes crime.  The first chunk of the movie is like an episode of Entourage.

Which isn't to diminish the accomplishments of the movie, or say that's the only or primary goal, but it's certainly a big part of the appeal.  If Scorcese made family dramas about the experiences of Catholics in America, he'd be a well respected indy director and not nearly as well known.

The rise-and-fall trajectory is a very biopic thing, and those generally bore me.  Also, at certain points (the beginning of the last act in Goodfellas, the start of the movie in Casino), the movie gets fatalistic.  Which isn't necessarily bad, but it feels a bit preachy to me in this context.

I'll freely admit that I'm biased towards tight plotting and reflexively roll my eyes when I hear a movie "really captures that time and place."  I want a story, dammit, not a postcard.

[TVC15]

I don't mind postcards, sometimes, but the movie really has to offer something else.  And really, seeing a postcard from like, the gangster eras isn't very enticing, because I want postcards of places I don't see often.

<humps Barry Lyndon>

[etiolate]

Have any of you seen American Gangster yet? I find the violence in that even less glamorous than Scorcese flicks.

There is a scene that mirrors the Godfather II plot involving Vino

spoiler (click to show/hide)

where he takes out the old local boss and then returns to his family.  The difference in AG is that we witness it from his family watching it go down through the window, they react in a shocked and stunned manner and  sit quietly disturbed when he comes back.  While Vino kills the old boss out of view of everyone, waiting to do it, planning it, finishing it and returning warmly to his family. Denzel's character instead just does it suddenly on a whim in front of everyone.

[close]

Totally different vibe on violence between the two.

[TVC15]

I waiting to see what video releases look like for AG.  it sounds iffy enough that I am hoping Scott pulls out a dinger of a DC.

[Mandark]

The buzz around AG made it sound like a Tupac album.  He's violent!  But he cares about his family!  He's a criminal!  But he gives back to the community!

Ya know, I probably wouldn't have liked any cut of Medellin, even if Vince Chase is a great actor (and I'm still not sure whether I'm meant to believe that).

If someone starts a review of fake movies thread, I'm there.

[etiolate]

I didn't find Denzel's character as likeable through most of the film. There is two character's storylines going through the film and the moral one isn't played by Denzel.

[TVC15]

What did you think, overall, though?  Did it seem problematic?  Most of the reviews seem to say something along the lines of good not great, and I am wondering if Scott can do his majick.

[brawndolicious]

well AG is supposed to be based on a true story but bastardizes it.  the original criminal it was based on wasn't a family man (he once had a hit out on his own brother).  and he probably wasn't the type that would randomly shoot people in coffee shops.

one recent (I think) crime movie I liked was Wonderland.  it's something about the LA porn and drug scene like Boogie Nights but a lot more violent.

[Shuri]

Wonderland was great, Val Kilmer was awesome in it; too bad nobody knows about that movie.

[Powerslave]

Scarface is being hated on since it got big due to MTV Cribs and rappers right?
Cause it was an underground classic before that I think.

[brawndolicious]

Wonderland was great, Val Kilmer was awesome in it; too bad nobody knows about that movie.

yeah, I saw it on IFC and I was amazed at how awesome it was but I never heard about it before.  It handled the flashback storytelling really well.

[Gay Boy]

I think Oliver Stone said it best (he wrote Scarface) about his film:

"All distinguished black fellows like Scarface." - Oliver Stone


I remember Denzel Washington when American Gangster came out during a interview said it disgusts him that black people treat a bad movie like Scarface like a classic.

[Phoenix Dark]

Stone said that?   

[Gay Boy]

Stone said that?   

Yes.

[Powerslave]

source

[Gay Boy]

It's from an article in a magazine called Stop Smiling. It was written by some screen writer for the magazine:

I met Oliver Stone at a party. It was me, Russell Simmons and Stan Lathan. It was Paula Abdul’s platinum party on Hacienda Boulevard. Eddie Murphy was there. I said, “Oliver Stone’s my hero,” so I went over to him, but he was tied up. I said, “Man, my name is Barry Michael Cooper.” This was after NJC had come out. “I wrote the movie.” He said, “Okay” and shook my hand. I said, “Man, I love your movie Wall Street. That’s how I learned to write. That was my tool and my instruction book for writing NJC.” He said to me, “Okay, thank you very much. I bet you like Scarface, too — all distinguished black fellows like Scarface.” And he stumbled off.

But in the end Denzel is right. Black people who call Scarface a classic are just promoting a stupid stereotype, its sad.

[brawndolicious]

I always knew oliver stone was a racist.

[Gay Boy]

Which makes the fact black people worship his work all the more hilarious.

[Phoenix Dark]

Meh I'm not too interested in hearing what Mr. Denzel "aka angry black man with a gun in all his movies" Washington has to say about stereotypes

[Gay Boy]

Meh I'm not too interested in hearing what Mr. Denzel "aka angry black man with a gun in all his movies" Washington has to say about stereotypes

Eh he isnt the first black guy in film to publicly scold the black community for worshiping the rather weak Scarface. I am pretty sure Morgan Freeman did before as well iirc.

[Powerslave]

lol Morgan Freeman shouldn't open his mouth. He is the same fucking character in all his movies.


Something Awful had an awesome shoop of this.

[Robo]

What did you think, overall, though?  Did it seem problematic?  Most of the reviews seem to say something along the lines of good not great, and I am wondering if Scott can do his majick.

Mandark gave us the best summation I've seen of it:

American Gangster!  The film that combines the "stodgy lawman dogs vivacious criminal" dynamic of Catch Me If You Can with the "he was a hard, violent man, but also cared deeply about shit" frisson of a VH1 documentary on Tupac!

The whole thing comes off as poorly concieved attempt at making a standard-fare gangster film.  I don't think any amount of Ridley Scott magic is gonna ever make it anything more than mediocre.

[Mupepe]

lol Morgan Freeman shouldn't open his mouth. He is the same fucking character in all his movies.

the magical negro?

[Himu]

I've wanted to see American Gangster.

[The Fake Shemp]

I just watched American Gangster recently and it was horribly mediocre.

Denzel's character really wasn't likable for most of the movie and neither was Russell Crowe's.  The film struggles to find an identity and bounces back and forth until the two main characters collide into each other.  Then they have a cup of coffee, bring down a corrupt police force and have a few laughs.  It really was not worth my time.  A low point for Ridley Scott.

[Powerslave]

well here it is:






Although I still can swear that it used to be an image of him from the poster Along Came a Spider and it looked way more professional. Either  I can't find the right one, or I remember it wrong 

[BobbyRobby]

The buzz around AG made it sound like a Tupac album.  He's violent!  But he cares about his family!  He's a criminal!  But he gives back to the community!

this is what i hated about Scarface, that he was was supposed to be somewhat admirable because he didn't kill woman or children.  it somehow made him even less likable for me

[Gay Boy]

Morgan Freeman's acting has nothing to do with the fact that Scarface is a shitty film that would be forgotten by time if it wasnt for rappers masturbating over it.

[Robo]

It would still have a pretty substantial cult following.  It does have some pretty funny dialogue, a lot of violence, Al Pacino, an Oliver Stone script, and De Palma direction.  I would suspect that even more people would enjoy it for what it is -- a dumb gangster movie with Al Pacino, silly dialogue and a lot of over-the-top violence -- if it weren't for the rapper idolization.

[The Fake Shemp]

Black people ruin everything!  First slavery, now Scarface!

[Gay Boy]

It would still have a pretty substancial cult following.  It does have some pretty funny dialouge, a lot of violence, Al Pacino, an Oliver Stone script, and De Palma direction.  I would suspect that even more people would enjoy it for what it is -- a dumb gangster movie with Al Pacino, silly dialouge and a lot of over-the-top violence -- if it weren't for the rapper idolization.

It isn't a good stone script. Stone himself has said the script was not good.

[Oblivion]

It's from an article in a magazine called Stop Smiling. It was written by some screen writer for the magazine:

I met Oliver Stone at a party. It was me, Russell Simmons and Stan Lathan. It was Paula Abdul’s platinum party on Hacienda Boulevard. Eddie Murphy was there. I said, “Oliver Stone’s my hero,” so I went over to him, but he was tied up. I said, “Man, my name is Barry Michael Cooper.” This was after NJC had come out. “I wrote the movie.” He said, “Okay” and shook my hand. I said, “Man, I love your movie Wall Street. That’s how I learned to write. That was my tool and my instruction book for writing NJC.” He said to me, “Okay, thank you very much. I bet you like Scarface, too — all distinguished black fellows like Scarface.” And he stumbled off.

Holy shit. Respect + 1. Clearly a true American hero.

[Robo]

It would still have a pretty substantial cult following.  It does have some pretty funny dialouge, a lot of violence, Al Pacino, an Oliver Stone script, and De Palma direction.  I would suspect that even more people would enjoy it for what it is -- a dumb gangster movie with Al Pacino, silly dialouge and a lot of over-the-top violence -- if it weren't for the rapper idolization.

It isn't a good stone script. Stone himself has said the script was not good.

It isn't good at all, but his attachment should be enough to draw people to it.  ...Except that doesn't seem to apply for Salvador, which is buttfuck awesome and gets zero attention.

[TVC15]

I could see Scarface being a decent movie if it wasn't pretty much played straight.  Even Pacino's ludicrous acting was pretty much "straight."

[Mandark]

I just watched American Gangster recently and it was horribly mediocre.

Denzel's character really wasn't likable for most of the movie and neither was Russell Crowe's.  The film struggles to find an identity and bounces back and forth until the two main characters collide into each other.  Then they have a cup of coffee, bring down a corrupt police force and have a few laughs.  It really was not worth my time.  A low point for Ridley Scott.

When I first heard about the movie, I assumed they would go for a Catch Me If You Can/Thank You For Smoking vibe, where the movie sets the audience up to root for the traditionally bad guy.

I heard some reports about Washington having changes made to the way his character was presented, because he was worried about glamorizing violence.  Similar to when he made sure his character in Training Day was punished rather than rewarded for his bad behavior.

Denzel's like a one-man Hays Office.

[etiolate]

I rather liked American Gangster. Didn't have that instantly great feeling, but it was one of the better films I've seen this year. Like I said, the violence is done differently and that is one thing I appreciated. Cuba Gooding has a weird short appearance in the film. Josh Brolin makes a great bad cop.