Author Topic: Shawn Elliott calls out Shane, Ryan Payton, IGN, and some neogaf posters on MGS4  (Read 33141 times)

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cool breeze

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I like the defense for anyone criticising MGS4 or any MGS story is that "they don't get it" and can't appreciate it or it's some sort of high art that a normal fan wouldn't get. Much like the animu and japan worshippers claim they're the only ones who understand Japan.

I wonder how many of them actually enjoy MGS and only play it because if they don't it would be like admitting they're not as intune with Japan and other otaku as they thought.

How does MGS, a game based on western films with mostly all western characters based in areas not near eastern asia, at all equal having a hard on for Japan?

TVC15

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I'm also a bit surprised that people are so receptive of things that are damned near hammered in. I tend to find most thoughtful the things that are delivered on the side or on the sly, so to speak. Kojima has been pushing this damned PMC military economy angle like a three-breasted whore since it was unveiled, and if anything, this has made the apathetic to the whole thing. Not the PMC deal itself, but if my first real "experience" with the PMC industry came from MGS4, I doubt I'd be all that interested in finding out more. Of course, I've had this problem with all MGS games I've played; the excruciatingly complex storytelling and the tendency of Kojima to simply over-explain things has made it somewhat inapproachable.

You see, what gets me is that I was expecting Kojima to try to make some sort of serious statement about PMCs.  MGS1 had a nuke/general anti-war message that while not unique, was played pretty effectively, considering the source was a video game.  MGS2 delivered a pretty spiffy narrative that riffed on living in the information age and was vaguely Baudrillardian.  MGS3 did a nice cold war, pseudo-historical thing.  MGS4 at first seems like it's going to have some sort of message about PMCs, a subject that's ripe for going over, but instead it tackles PMCs from a pure science fiction angle that doesn't really have any relevance to the real world issues of PMCs.  I know, I was probably expecting too much from a videogame, but being that Kojima delivered interesting, great for videogames, narratives with his previous games, the bar was set quite a bit high for this game.  

MGS4's story was a letdown from any perspective.  Tsk tsk Kojima.

serge

Sho Nuff

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Army of Two did PMCs better

Pimp out zee AK

Beat me to it

I think Army of Two II needs diamond-crusted grenades

cool breeze

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You see, what gets me is that I was expecting Kojima to try to make some sort of serious statement about PMCs.  MGS1 had a nuke/general anti-war message that while not unique, was played pretty effectively, considering the source was a video game.  MGS2 delivered a pretty spiffy narrative that riffed on living in the information age and was vaguely Baudrillardian.  MGS3 did a nice cold war, pseudo-historical thing.  MGS4 at first seems like it's going to have some sort of message about PMCs, a subject that's ripe for going over, but instead it tackles PMCs from a pure science fiction angle that doesn't really have any relevance to the real world issues of PMCs.  I know, I was probably expecting too much from a videogame, but being that Kojima delivered interesting, great for videogames, narratives with his previous games, the bar was set quite a bit high for this game. 

MGS4's story was a letdown from any perspective.  Tsk tsk Kojima.

MGS4's story was just an extension of MGS2's story and main themes.  It was just again more about control, albeit more direct instead of influence now.  I agree that there aren't as many underlying themes in this one, but unlike the previous games, this one had to wrap up the story of Solid Snake.  The closest the game gets to talking about PMC issues seriously is by saying that the people joining these PMCs don't do it for their countries, but instead as some sort of thrill/game.  The problem is that this game is the first that was a follow up/continuation to the initial story of the past game.  MGS2 didn't have a resolute end to it.  It opened with you knowing there was going to be a continuation of this story later on.  MGS1 ended film as did MG1, MG2, and MGS3 (despite PO appearing to continue the story, but MGS3's ending didn't indicate there would be a sequel).  There was too much of the Metal Gear story in the way.

TVC15

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I'd probably be a LOT more forgiving of the story if it at all justified the running length of the cut scenes.  Like I said, I dug the stories of the previous games, and what with the stories being good, I didn't mind the cut scene and codec time at all.  Here, the cut scenes dragged on, and since the game was more dumb action movie than interesting narrative, it just didn't feel like the game justified multiple long chunks of exposition.  Not to mention that most of the long cut scenes involve characters dictating boring exposition to you.  That was more acceptable when the story was doing interesting things, not so much in MGS4.
serge

Solo

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2 is legitimately bad from a gameplay perspective though.

What is so bad about 2's gameplay? Sure, its pretty basic compared to MGS4 and other modern stealth titles, but at least the gameplay isnt utterly broken like MGS3's was.

pilonv1

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But MGS4 - what the fuck is MGS4 going to do for the future of gaming?

justify ps3's existence :-*
itm

fistfulofmetal

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mgs4 is awesome.
nat

Crushed

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The problem with 2 is the fact that it relies on one offs for most of the game after the tanker, while the main gameplay mechanic (stealth) is shunted to secondary duty.  there is a lot of crappy fetch type or escort or swimming mechanics that don't work or don't augment the game at all.  Add to that the general lousiness of the bosses and you have yourself a mess.  At least with three the main point was sneaking around bad guys, not freezing c4  :-\.  Three has the issue with the survival viewer and I can see how that would piss alot of people off, but at least it goes along with the fundamental gamplay.

But you sneaked around bad guys to GET to the C4. It was just adding a "sneaking" goal for each area.

Besides, you can't play something like the extra missions in Substance and say that it's bad.
wtc

drohne

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mgs's narrative strengths are visual and thematic -- the actual plotting is nonsense and the actual words are inept. i don't know how much of the latter is due to translation. kojima called george lucas a genius in a recent interview, and mgs4 has an unfortunate lucas streak: it retcons too eagerly, it ties loose ends too neatly, and its explanations

a. don't really explain anything
b. rub the glamour off series mysteries -- the patriots' backstory is moronic, and i'll have to ignore it when i replay mgs2 and mgs3

mgs is fanatical about detail -- there's something autistic about this, but there's something artistic about it as well. mgs4's confrontations and action scenes have mgs3's idiosyncratic wildness, and snake's premature aging has a certain pathos -- as mgs3's relationship between snake and the boss did, and as mgs1's unintentionally hilarious death soliloquies did not. mgs2 had other things on its mind.

here's the thing about mgs: in some ways it's really crude and stupid and embarrassing, and in other ways it's
remarkably sophisticated. it's trying to do something new with it's storytelling, but it's too late in the day to do anything really new (the preceding statement is as close as i'll come to referencing postmodernism) -- and mgs is particularly burdened by the movies and books and ideas that precede it. it doesn't shy away from that burden; it tries to carry it and often stumbles. it's easier to scoff at the things it does badly than to appreciate the things it does well -- particularly if you're an internet cynic of limited intelligence who wants very badly to sound intelligent. those folks will praise something like bioshock instead, since they're insufficiently literate to know that a rejoinder to ayn rand in the year of our lord 2007 is pretty embarrassing too. good for them. fuck them.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 09:47:23 PM by drohne »

Oblivion

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droooooooooooooooooooooohne!

WrikaWrek

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What's sophisticated about MGS?

The way Kojima likes to tie absurd/larger than life characters and situations with real life themes is very interesting, and it's what gives MGS charm. Solid Snake pretty much embodies this way of thinking, as he is normal inside abnormal, he is the game player in the world of MGS.

What's sophisticated about Bioshock is its ability to tell you a story you don't see, and show you a story you don't listen to. And it's just interesting as a story.

You throw a lot of big words, as if words made any difference. It's not about being an internet cynic, and there's something rather ironic about "trying to sound intelligent" and your post.

You speak a lot, but you barely say anything new, and it's no surprise how you are able to pin point flaws yet you remain vague about what it does well. Maybe you are just arguing with the self, not realizing you are addressing others, but to tell yourself to go fuck yourself seems like a pretty unnecessary thing to tell us.

MyNameIsMethodis

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Is this the same Shawn Elliott who acts like his shit dont stank and that his annoying voices are actually funny?
USA

WrikaWrek

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Is this the same Shawn Elliott who acts like his shit dont stank and that his annoying voices are actually funny?

No, it's the other one. The one with the funny voices.

drohne

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yeah, i've had mgs on my mind way too much this week. i was flirting with the idea of really sitting down and writing something about it, but that can't lead anywhere, so i decided to have a little message board relapse instead

CurseoftheGods

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mgs's narrative strengths are visual and thematic -- the actual plotting is nonsense and the actual words are inept. i don't know how much of the latter is due to translation. kojima called george lucas a genius in a recent interview, and mgs4 has an unfortunate lucas streak: it retcons too eagerly, it ties loose ends too neatly, and its explanations

a. don't really explain anything
b. rub the glamour off series mysteries -- the patriots' backstory is moronic, and i'll have to ignore it when i replay mgs2 and mgs3

mgs is fanatical about detail -- there's something autistic about this, but there's something artistic about it as well. mgs4's confrontations and action scenes have mgs3's idiosyncratic wildness, and snake's premature aging has a certain pathos -- as mgs3's relationship between snake and the boss did, and as mgs1's unintentionally hilarious death soliloquies did not. mgs2 had other things on its mind.

here's the thing about mgs: in some ways it's really crude and stupid and embarrassing, and in other ways it's
remarkably sophisticated. it's trying to do something new with it's storytelling, but it's too late in the day to do anything really new (the preceding statement is as close as i'll come to referencing postmodernism) -- and mgs is particularly burdened by the movies and books and ideas that precede it. it doesn't shy away from that burden; it tries to carry it and often stumbles. it's easier to scoff at the things it does badly than to appreciate the things it does well -- particularly if you're an internet cynic of limited intelligence who wants very badly to sound intelligent. those folks will praise something like bioshock instead, since they're insufficiently literate to know that a rejoinder to ayn rand in the year of our lord 2007 is pretty embarrassing too. good for them. fuck them.

Oh, my God. I love you, Drohne.

TVC15

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Spoilers within, and ranting

spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Zero thing really rubbed me the wrong way.  When I first heard about it, when the spoilers hit, I was kind of excited, because I mistakenly assumed that the story would be as good as previous games (I agree with drohne in that previous games always seemed pretty good about keeping their details straight--the series had good continuity, and I expected them to keep explaining things well).  So anyway, when I first heard the Zero thing, I was cool with it.  Zero was my favorite character in MGS3 and I wanted to see how they turned the personable brit into basically the big bad of the series.  And then the explanation ended up being "Well, he turned BAD!" with no real explanation.  Similar to how the explanation for Ocelot turning against Eva and Big Boss was "Well, he turned BAD!"  And Raiden?  "Well, he turned into a BADASS CYBORG NINJA.  And then he turned BACK INTO A NORMAL DUDE."  And then Big Boss? "Well, we put him back together again LIKE HUMPTY DUMPTY and now he is going to GIVE EXPOSITION AND DIE FIVE MINUTES LATER!" As long as we're not really explaining things here, I wish Snake would get a pony, too!
[close]
serge

Don Flamenco

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I know criti--I mean journa--I mean the guys who get paid to write about videogames jack off any game that plays well and has some semblance of an intelligent story.  And I know there's always a Shawn Elliot to come along and play monday morning quarterback.  I know there's a shitload of truth to what Shawn Elliot is saying and I agree there's nothing redeeming about MGS4 that informs my real world experience...except maybe some curiosity about nanomachines, since they're supposedly the next world-changing leap in technology, according to some.  By "some curiosity" I mean I'll read a wiki on it, eventually.  I also know Mr. Shane  needs to pick up a newspaper some time...video games won't keep you connected buddy...it IS an escapist hobby :lol 

but why does the review reviewer always have to throw in lines like this:
Quote
The trouble, if there is any, lies in leading readers to believe that a videogame is the Second Coming...even if it is a lower-case fourth.

They say this about GTAIV, CoD4, Halo 3, NG2, DMC4, Bioshock etc. just about any AAA game--where's the secret stockpile of games that are REALLY at the pinnacle of gaming?  It's really annoying when these guys go overboard in this direction just to show their oppositional defiance.  We all have our favorite games, but when you start saying MGS4 is not hot shit, you're probably a bit jaded (I'm talking gameplay here.)

Van Cruncheon

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Quote from: drohne
it's easier to scoff at the things it does badly than to appreciate the things it does well -- particularly if you're an internet cynic of limited intelligence who wants very badly to sound intelligent

really, though, this is a non-assertion -- the same could be said of those who praise it. after all, it's easier to conflate remarkably consistent fanservice with a nuanced vision. at some point, your mgs "experience" is irrevocably tied into how much you've invested in the series as a whole.

than again, i just finished act ii, so maybe there's some greater emotional resonance that i haven't encountered. it certainly hasn't made me think, though, beyond some pretty fiercely happy thoughts about the modeling, the choreography, and the visual design in general. the laughing octopus battle was a pretty memorable boss fight!
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 10:45:15 PM by Professor Prole »
duc

TVC15

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Yeah, before it sounds like I'm being too down on the game, I did thoroughly enjoy it, and the only reason I seem so salty about it is because the MGS series has offered some of the best narratives in gaming in the past.  This new game surprised me by delivering on the gameplay, but I can't help but be a little bummed that it fumbled on the element of the series that I enjoyed most.  It's only because of the pedigree of the series that I feel any disappointment.

Spoilers within, and ranting

spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Zero thing really rubbed me the wrong way.  When I first heard about it, when the spoilers hit, I was kind of excited, because I mistakenly assumed that the story would be as good as previous games (I agree with drohne in that previous games always seemed pretty good about keeping their details straight--the series had good continuity, and I expected them to keep explaining things well).  So anyway, when I first heard the Zero thing, I was cool with it.  Zero was my favorite character in MGS3 and I wanted to see how they turned the personable brit into basically the big bad of the series.  And then the explanation ended up being "Well, he turned BAD!" with no real explanation.  Similar to how the explanation for Ocelot turning against Eva and Big Boss was "Well, he turned BAD!"  And Raiden?  "Well, he turned into a BADASS CYBORG NINJA.  And then he turned BACK INTO A NORMAL DUDE."  And then Big Boss? "Well, we put him back together again LIKE HUMPTY DUMPTY and now he is going to GIVE EXPOSITION AND DIE FIVE MINUTES LATER!" As long as we're not really explaining things here, I wish Snake would get a pony, too!
[close]
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Having Zeo as the founder wasn't the worst offender either, it was lumping in all the codec characters together as the founding members.  Remeber that girl who told you about snakebites and made godzilla references in the third game?  Well she helped found a group bent on world domination.  The kid good with electronics?  His legacy created the world superpower.  It was like Kojima had a checklist of characters to include and the game had to include every one before it would ship.
[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)
And as a grand finale they roll out a braindead senior citizen and MURDER HIM on screen! Because it's the right thing to do.

Really, that whole last portion of the finale, with Big Boss and Zero in the graveyard. . .I wish I turned off the system before that scene and never learned of its existence.  You'd hear much less bitching from me since some of the game's worst story transgressions come from that segment.
[close]
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 10:46:26 PM by TVC 15 »
serge

AdmiralViscen

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You guys are beating the game already? Is it short or were you just addicted?

Solo

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The game should have ended with the *first* ambivalent ending.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Snake cocks the pistol, puts it in his mouth, camera pans up, fade to black, *bang*, roll credits without any other wankery.
[close]
That would have sat better with me.

WrikaWrek

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You guys are beating the game already? Is it short or were you just addicted?


20 hour game. It's just one of those games, you don't let go till you finish it.

I'm at the end of act 3 on my 2nd play through already.

Narag

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I was dissapointed that they offered nothing new in the form of story or characters, they just traded on people you already knew existed and events you had already played.  It felt like a season finale instead of a brand new game.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I feel the same. Sadly the only new entry of any real substance is Drebin who just so happens to be a black plotmoving wizard.
[close]
DMC

TVC15

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I was dissapointed that they offered nothing new in the form of story or characters, they just traded on people you already knew existed and events you had already played.  It felt like a season finale instead of a brand new game.

This was something else that bugged me.  Aside from Drebin, there really weren't any new characters.  Sunny really doesn't count.  I guess this isn't really that big of a complaint.  I don't require new characters or anything to love a game.  It was just something that stood out.  
serge

Brehvolution

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I know criti--I mean journa--I mean the guys who get paid to write about videogames jack off any game that plays well and has some semblance of an intelligent story.  And I know there's always a Shawn Elliot to come along and play monday morning quarterback.  I know there's a shitload of truth to what Shawn Elliot is saying and I agree there's nothing redeeming about MGS4 that informs my real world experience...except maybe some curiosity about nanomachines, since they're supposedly the next world-changing leap in technology, according to some.  By "some curiosity" I mean I'll read a wiki on it, eventually.  I also know Mr. Shane  needs to pick up a newspaper some time...video games won't keep you connected buddy...it IS an escapist hobby :lol 

but why does the review reviewer always have to throw in lines like this:
Quote
The trouble, if there is any, lies in leading readers to believe that a videogame is the Second Coming...even if it is a lower-case fourth.

They say this about GTAIV, CoD4, Halo 3, NG2, DMC4, Bioshock etc. just about any AAA game--where's the secret stockpile of games that are REALLY at the pinnacle of gaming?  It's really annoying when these guys go overboard in this direction just to show their oppositional defiance.  We all have our favorite games, but when you start saying MGS4 is not hot shit, you're probably a bit jaded (I'm talking gameplay here.)

Thank You. I couldn't convey my earlier opinion as well as this. I'm loving the game but some people stoop is much higher than others.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 11:39:46 PM by Zero Hero »
©ZH

Crushed

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Spoilers within, and ranting

spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Zero thing really rubbed me the wrong way.  When I first heard about it, when the spoilers hit, I was kind of excited, because I mistakenly assumed that the story would be as good as previous games (I agree with drohne in that previous games always seemed pretty good about keeping their details straight--the series had good continuity, and I expected them to keep explaining things well).  So anyway, when I first heard the Zero thing, I was cool with it.  Zero was my favorite character in MGS3 and I wanted to see how they turned the personable brit into basically the big bad of the series.  And then the explanation ended up being "Well, he turned BAD!" with no real explanation.  Similar to how the explanation for Ocelot turning against Eva and Big Boss was "Well, he turned BAD!"  And Raiden?  "Well, he turned into a BADASS CYBORG NINJA.  And then he turned BACK INTO A NORMAL DUDE."  And then Big Boss? "Well, we put him back together again LIKE HUMPTY DUMPTY and now he is going to GIVE EXPOSITION AND DIE FIVE MINUTES LATER!" As long as we're not really explaining things here, I wish Snake would get a pony, too!
[close]
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Having Zeo as the founder wasn't the worst offender either, it was lumping in all the codec characters together as the founding members.  Remeber that girl who told you about snakebites and made godzilla references in the third game?  Well she helped found a group bent on world domination.  The kid good with electronics?  His legacy created the world superpower.  It was like Kojima had a checklist of characters to include and the game had to include every one before it would ship.
[close]
spoiler (click to show/hide)
And remember, Para-Medic also supervised a program in which Big Boss was cloned several times without his knowledge (involving six failed attempts [read: dead Big Boss babies] and purposefully aborted clones), a secret genetic modification program for soldiers without their consent, and a project in which a brain-dead Gray Fox was experimented upon as a guinea pig for gene therapy and hooked up to a suit that kept him a state of constant pain, murderous insanity, and living death. Then Gray Fox killed her for mercilessly torturing him for six years.

The girl who read a guidebook on animal eating and helped Big Boss heal up cuts and fractures. The one who talked about Japan and science.
[close]

One person I know actually tried to defend this as "character development."
wtc

cool breeze

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Shawn mentions what was rubbing me up the wrong way.

We had 'expert' critique of Edge, Eurogamer and anyone who didn't go beyond 9.something.
We had questions about thier integrity, how they were just ragging on a high profile title.

And Buzz, Cack, Chob, FudgeRoof, Fugnut, Arzcandle and other weird name magazines from europe who threw out 10/10 were taken with out the reviews being read.

It's obvious why : the reviews mean nothing, the score is just a validation of these peoples belief in MGS4.

I tried to draw the PS3 fans out as to -who- was a reliable review source, but almost everyone was too balless to cough up a name (one person said Parish, but that was it).

My copy is still in transit, so obviously the definitive XF#G review has yet to happen.


Yes, all this is brand new with MGS4 and never happened before.

drohne

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really, though, this is a non-assertion -- the same could be said of those who praise it.

only if you suppose that mgs itself is a neutral quantity. i figure its apologists are legitimately responding to its thematic ambition and visual excellence, while its detractors are just trying to score easy points (whether you get any points for running down a game that's smarter and more talented than you is a different matter). there's no qualitative difference between the naivete that overrates mgs's animu plotting and the naivete that wants it to say something soberly 'relevant' about blackwater.

unattached thoughts:

there's a sect of nerds who can't tolerate the nerdy illiteracies of mgs...but can't even see the nerdy illiteracies of batman or planescape torment or whatever. i don't have a lot of patience for their self-satisfied disingenuous parochialism. there aren't a lot of people in The Videogame Community whose objections to mgs are founded on high aesthetic standards. YOU LIKE VIDEOGAMES

yeah, the only mgs game that i really 'think about' is mgs2 -- or no, i also think about mgs3, but i think about its aesthetics rather than its ideas. i don't think kojima 'got lucky' with mgs2 -- if he's curtailed his ambitions*, it's because of his stated belief that game development is a service industry. telling anecdote: a junior high school girl in a focus test said she would never play a 'stupid old man game,' so they replaced snake with raiden.

* his ambitions have been curtailed, but his talents have continued to develop. mgs3 is better than mgs2.

i'm actually not a classical mgs fanboy. i disliked the first game. i was ambivalent about the second game (singularly for a videogame, i think it needs to be played twice). and for whatever reason i thought the third game was the best thing i'd ever played, which made me go back and reevaluate the series. i probably started off as one of those internet scoffers -- but i was 17, so hey. i actually remember saying that ocarina of time was much better, which is sufficient evidence that i was once a cretin

i can't read the spoiler posts, cos i've just finished act 3. which actually lowered my opinion of the game on just about every level...though it has its moments.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
here's where i'm coming from, for reference: the moment where the scarabs impersonate a man in a hat and trenchcoat compensates for the stupidity of that act's explanations. not so much for its near-total lack of gameplay
[close]

yeah, whatever. i should probably go finish mgs4


Crushed

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a bunch of fancy words

i have no idea what you just said or if you insulted my mom or something but mgs2 > mgs3 is practically an objective fact
wtc

drohne

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and yeah: mgs4's biggest burden is mgs. it spends so much time dredging up every mgs character and plot point ever that it can't really stand on its own. it's kind of sad that The Single Best Videogame Ever is so exclusively addressed to series fans. i love mgs, but i hope kojima follows through on his desire to drop mgs. this kind of talent needs a broader outlet

TVC15

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i can't read the spoiler posts, cos i've just finished act 3. which actually lowered my opinion of the game on just about every level...though it has its moments.

Now you're getting to where my problems with the story really start showing themselves.  The story in the second half of that game was so disappointing that it had me retconning my opinion of Kojima's storytelling talent in previous games.  I still liked it, but I had difficulty reconciling that the same person that came up with something as off-kilter as MGS2 came up with something as fanservicey and ehhhh as the second half of MGS4.

To reiterate my opinion on MGS2 and 3, I think 3 is probably the objectively better total package game, but I doubt any game will ever have the impact of going into MGS2 without knowing anything about the plot for the first time.  MGS2 gets a lot of bonus points for impressing me with the narrative.  I guess, at the time, it was the first "next-gen" game for me.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 01:08:44 AM by TVC 15 »
serge

Narag

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spoiler (click to show/hide)
did you notice the scarabs were following in their suit the whole time?  i saw it once and thought I was seeing things.  i think it's the first time in a game someone has managed to fuck with me.
[close]

mgs3>mgs2

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I saw that, went back and checked and thought it was kind of shitty the stuff just disappeared if you were close enough. I would've like to have seen an abandoned hat/coat or something instead of nothing.  It was startling at first and I thought the game glitched out and was showing where I had been hiding earlier.  :lol.
[close]
DMC

Van Cruncheon

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what is it, unto itself, if not a neutral quantity? wait, let's not go there, because it's ayn rand territory.

that said, it could be just as conveniently argued that your history on internet message boards (about VIDEOGAMING) packed to the gills with the meandering nonsense of nerds seeking intellectual validation has ultimately spun YOUR current take on mgs4, as well. you pretty much acknowledge that! (the same, of course, could be said for me.) at this point, it's all cheap sniping, regardless of the vector, and mgs4 remains mgs4. me, i figure its more earnest apologists are reacting to the gross levels of fanservice in the game as well as the completely anticipated preference for the uniquely japanese manga/anime cliches instanced throughout the game (so far), and that its detractors are being disingenuously reductive in the name of spoiling the party.

i don't think there's any naivete at all, unless we're ONLY discussing the narrative -- because only the naive wouldn't roll their eyes at the cliches, or likewise assume the cliches comprise the whole experience. rather, i think there's a little TOO much internet experience going on, here, and that we're seeing yet another hyped game become a flashpoint for the usual imbroglio of warring agendas: sfags versus xfags; "pure" gamers versus the experiental set; anime fans versus frat boys; yadda yadda yadda. this argument, as unfortunately embodied in tom chick's clever-but-completely-irrelevant review, is about the fucking internet, and it's a shame hideo kojima didn't capitalize on that somehow like he did in mgs2.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 01:12:22 AM by Professor Prole »
duc

cool breeze

  • Senior Member
and yeah: mgs4's biggest burden is mgs. it spends so much time dredging up every mgs character and plot point ever that it can't really stand on its own. it's kind of sad that The Single Best Videogame Ever is so exclusively addressed to series fans. i love mgs, but i hope kojima follows through on his desire to drop mgs. this kind of talent needs a broader outlet

Agreed.  MGS4 is my favorite game ever (I don't claim this a lot, last time was 10 years ago), but I totally understand my liking of the game is because I was a die hard MGS fan already.  The best stand alone MGS game is MGS3.

And I accept all the wrapping up in MGS4 because this is Kojima finishing his involvement with the series.  Even though he said MGS2, and later MGS3, were his last games, you knew he was lying.  MGS2 needed a sequel done by himm and even after MGS3s curve ball, he still needed to finish off the story from MGS2.  Let him do other things now.

TVC15

  • Laugh when you can, it’s cheap medicine -LB
  • Senior Member
You know, that first part of Act 3 is probably the only part of the game I legitimately did not like.  I'll even give the hours of scenes that much--for how pointless some of them seemed, I enjoyed watching them all (even if they are only enjoyable once).  That first part of Act 3, though, that will never be good, under any light.  Such a wasted, pretty area.
serge

drohne

  • Senior Member
spoiler (click to show/hide)
did you notice the scarabs were following in their suit the whole time?  i saw it once and thought I was seeing things.  i think it's the first time in a game someone has managed to fuck with me.
[close]

wait, you mean during the actual level? i didn't notice, and that's AWESOME if so

Van Cruncheon

  • live mas or die trying
  • Banned
mgs3 is the only metal gear i've completed, just because it's so fucking well-paced and forces the player to use the game's mechanics in clever but completely contextual ways. also, it has the best fucking boss fights EVER.
duc

BlueTsunami

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You'll weep at how many times he brings up the military industrial complex. :'(

Its almost as if every character that uses that title is saying something else but theres some filter preventing use from hearing what their really sayings. Its just.that.bad.

Quote from: Ghengis
spoiler (click to show/hide)
did you notice the scarabs were following in their suit the whole time?  i saw it once and thought I was seeing things.  i think it's the first time in a game someone has managed to fuck with me.
[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I noticed it too and literally went back to check who was following me to see that nothing was there. Very creepy at the time
[close]
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 01:16:27 AM by BlueTsunami »
:9

Crushed

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it spends so much time dredging up every mgs character and plot point ever that it can't really stand on its own.
Except for the 2D games, because Kojima apparently hates those for some unknown reason.

Outside of, "Big Boss was in charge of Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land, Snake beat him and Gray Fox and blew up Metal Gear," I don't think a single character or plot element of those games was ever touched on ever again.

He even had the audacity to retcon the most important NPC of the first two games (Madnar) to a hack in MGS3 (where it's revealed that Granin was the REAL inventor of the Metal Gear... uh, in the 1960's, with a design of REX with a railgun, which fucks with MGS1's story, but whatever) and is reduced to a namedrop in MGS4.


Which just reminded me of another plot hole brought on by Kojima's incessant need to "connect" things.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
When Naked Snake mentioned Granin's concept for Metal Gear to SIGINT... SIGINT responded that he heard about that idea (and LOLOLOLOL IT WAS OTACON'S DAD WHO WROTE A PAPER ON IT OMG), but that he thinks it's stupid because there's no point in a walking nuclear tank.

Yet SIGINT grows up to be the DARPA Chief, the man who overlooks a multibillion secret project... for a walking nuclear tank.

I'd also mention how the head of DARPA seems to think that planes don't have "altitude," but "attitude" in MGS3, but I think that was just another editing fuckup.
[close]
wtc

TVC15

  • Laugh when you can, it’s cheap medicine -LB
  • Senior Member
MGS2 falls apart when I try to play it once I get to the bomb diffusing section.  I hate hate HATE timed segments.  And then there's the terrible underwater portion after that.  Jesus, it's amazing how high my opinion of that game is when it definitely has the worst gaming moments in the entire series.  That's the kind of bonus I'm willing to give Kojima for telling a moderately clever story.
serge

Van Cruncheon

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mgs2 is totally redeemed because it insults gamers at the end for being self-absorbed.
duc

Narag

  • Member
spoiler (click to show/hide)
did you notice the scarabs were following in their suit the whole time?  i saw it once and thought I was seeing things.  i think it's the first time in a game someone has managed to fuck with me.
[close]

wait, you mean during the actual level? i didn't notice, and that's AWESOME if so
Here, sir.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
[close]
DMC

cool breeze

  • Senior Member
You know, that first part of Act 3 is probably the only part of the game I legitimately did not like.  I'll even give the hours of scenes that much--for how pointless some of them seemed, I enjoyed watching them all (even if they are only enjoyable once).  That first part of Act 3, though, that will never be good, under any light.  Such a wasted, pretty area.

I think it was kind of cool, but it could have been handled far better.  I liked the idea of using stealth in areas outside of the battlefield.  Just stalking him or doing the whole scout thing were both really cool for me.

MGS2 falls apart when I try to play it once I get to the bomb diffusing section.  I hate hate HATE timed segments.  And then there's the terrible underwater portion after that.  Jesus, it's amazing how high my opinion of that game is when it definitely has the worst gaming moments in the entire series.  That's the kind of bonus I'm willing to give Kojima for telling a moderately clever story.

Worst part of MGS2 for me is when you snipe bomb remotes to cross a bridge.  What the hell? really? You make me get a sniper rifle to shoot conveniently placed bombs in a carnival target practice course?  At least there was a harrier battle right then.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 01:19:20 AM by swaggaz »

TVC15

  • Laugh when you can, it’s cheap medicine -LB
  • Senior Member
You know, that first part of Act 3 is probably the only part of the game I legitimately did not like.  I'll even give the hours of scenes that much--for how pointless some of them seemed, I enjoyed watching them all (even if they are only enjoyable once).  That first part of Act 3, though, that will never be good, under any light.  Such a wasted, pretty area.

I think it was kind of cool, but it could have been handled far better.  I liked the idea of using stealth in areas outside of the battlefield.  Just stalking him or doing the whole scout thing were both really cool for me.

I think it would have been tolerable if it only went on for, say, one screen instead of three.
serge

drohne

  • Senior Member
rather, i think there's a little TOO much internet experience going on, here, and that we're seeing yet another hyped game become a flashpoint for the usual imbroglio of warring agendas: sfags versus xfags; "pure" gamers versus the experiental set; anime fans versus frat boys; yadda yadda yadda. this argument, as unfortunately embodied in tom chick's clever-but-completely-irrelevant review, is about the fucking internet

true. though i wish it wasn't the case. i've also been arguing about kobe bryant all week, so i've pretty well had it with arguments that are about anything and everything besides their ostensible subject

Crushed

  • i am terrified by skellybones
  • Senior Member
MGS2 falls apart when I try to play it once I get to the bomb diffusing section.  I hate hate HATE timed segments.  And then there's the terrible underwater portion after that.  Jesus, it's amazing how high my opinion of that game is when it definitely has the worst gaming moments in the entire series.  That's the kind of bonus I'm willing to give Kojima for telling a moderately clever story.

Did you know that in the original plan for MGS2, Vamp (or was it Chinaman before he got axed? Can't remember) was going to summon SHARKS in that underwater section? You'd have to hit a mine on purpose to release blood, and then swim away. To distract the sharks.

Which would have made that section about twenty times worse than it already is.


Also obligatory: "WE'VE MANAGED TO AVOID DROWNING!"

mgs2 is totally redeemed because it insults gamers at the end for being self-absorbed.

That was pretty awesome.

"What, you think this is all stupid shit? Well guess what dumbasses, it's just MGS1 with a different coat of paint. Suck on that."
wtc

TVC15

  • Laugh when you can, it’s cheap medicine -LB
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Since when do vampires and chinamen have shark-summoning abilities?  HE WAS JUST MAKING SHIT UP!
serge

Crushed

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Since when do vampires and chinamen have shark-summoning abilities?  HE WAS JUST MAKING SHIT UP!
You were going to fight Chinaman in that oxygenated water chamber. His dragon tattoo would come to life and swim around in the water and attack you.
wtc

cool breeze

  • Senior Member
Since when do vampires and chinamen have shark-summoning abilities?  HE WAS JUST MAKING SHIT UP!

Yeah, fucking awesome shit.

I mean, Laughing Octopus has octocamo, yet there is no practical use BECAUSE SHE HAS FUCKING TENTACLES COMING OUT OF HER HEAD!

Van Cruncheon

  • live mas or die trying
  • Banned
WHY DOES A FAT MAN NEED ROLLERSKATES TO SET BOMBS
duc

Van Cruncheon

  • live mas or die trying
  • Banned
i am sad that they retconned out the freaky boss powers as midichloriansnanomachines

HIDEO LUCAS CONFIRMED

FANS NEED CANON
duc

Crushed

  • i am terrified by skellybones
  • Senior Member
I also love how Otacon had to invent steal OctoCamo, despite the fact that he already invented INVISIBILITY CAMO nine years beforehand.

i am sad that they retconned out the freaky boss powers as midichloriansnanomachines

Except for the fact that Vamp was still able to jump five stories even after you injected him.
Or how he could run on water.
Or Fortune's missile-diverting at the very end of MGS2.
Or Psycho Mantis.
Or Vulcan Raven.
Or the Pain's COVERED IN BEEEEEEEEEEES.
Or the Sorrow, the psychic ghost who can talk to ghosts and summon ghosts.


Oh, but a vampire and a ghost arm? That's just too wacky, nanomachine that shit up.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 01:29:12 AM by Crushed »
wtc

Scurvy Stan

  • Member
VIDEOS GAMES! THEY'RE LIKE MOVIES YOU CONTROL!
^_^

TVC15

  • Laugh when you can, it’s cheap medicine -LB
  • Senior Member
Since when do vampires and chinamen have shark-summoning abilities?  HE WAS JUST MAKING SHIT UP!

Yeah, fucking awesome shit.

I mean, Laughing Octopus has octocamo, yet there is no practical use BECAUSE SHE HAS FUCKING TENTACLES COMING OUT OF HER HEAD!

But at least that's grounded in technology!  Chinamen summoning sharks--that's not even based on a crude racial stereotype or anything.  You just can't make up racial abilities for people.  I do applaud Kojima's combination of the gun-toting black man and the magical negro archetypes, though.  That's groundbreaking.
serge

BlueTsunami

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Did anyone else cringe at (DON'T READ THIS DRONE) *Its about the ending

spoiler (click to show/hide)
The dude Snakes meets up with dieing (don't want to name him incase someone hovers over the spoiler)? And by dieing I mean almost dieing about 20 different times during that whole freakin scene? He spouts out some explanation for one important story aspect, flails about, gets better, then spouts another story about The Patriots, flails again, THEN TALKS SOME MO'. It was so ridiculous, I actually said to myself "Just die already!"
[close]
:lol
:9

Narag

  • Member
i am sad that they retconned out the freaky boss powers as midichloriansnanomachines

HIDEO LUCAS CONFIRMED

FANS NEED CANON

I hated that. The supernatural elements of the previous iterations were some of my favorite parts. Psycho Mantis was this 4th wall breaking freak, Vamp was this bizarre force of nature compared to Snake and Raiden, and the Sorrow was great as well.

:piss nanomachines :piss2
DMC

TVC15

  • Laugh when you can, it’s cheap medicine -LB
  • Senior Member
Did anyone else cringe at (DON'T READ THIS DRONE) *Its about the ending

spoiler (click to show/hide)
The dude Snakes meets up with dieing (don't want to name him incase someone hovers over the spoiler)? And by dieing I mean almost dieing about 20 different times during that whole freakin scene? He spouts out some explanation for one important story aspect, flails about, gets better, then spouts another story about The Patriots, flails again, THEN TALKS SOME MO'. It was so ridiculous, I actually said to myself "Just die already!"
[close]
:lol

Oh god

spoiler (click to show/hide)
That scene so had me rolling my eyes.  After giving succulent fan service for 15 hours, what's the only way to top it?  Bring the Mythical Figure at the heart of the entire series back to life!  But he isn't even brought back for a meaningful story reason.  He just kind of shows up and talks for a bit, then dies again/
[close]
serge

Van Cruncheon

  • live mas or die trying
  • Banned
The Pain used pheromones, and The Sorrow could have been a schizophrenic break, since Naked Snake is the only person who ever saw him. I am at a loss to explain Volgin's lightning bolts, though. KUWABARA, KUWABARA.
duc

Crushed

  • i am terrified by skellybones
  • Senior Member
I do applaud Kojima's combination of the gun-toting black man and the magical negro archetypes, though.  That's groundbreaking.

Not to mention how he actually made it so that the two intelligent scientific black people in the universe were actually the same person. (Because there can't be more than one, you know).

Did anyone else cringe at (DON'T READ THIS DRONE) *Its about the ending

spoiler (click to show/hide)
The dude Snakes meets up with dieing (don't want to name him incase someone hovers over the spoiler)? And by dieing I mean almost dieing about 20 different times during that whole freakin scene? He spouts out some explanation for one important story aspect, flails about, gets better, then spouts another story about The Patriots, flails again, THEN TALKS SOME MO'. It was so ridiculous, I actually said to myself "Just die already!"
[close]
:lol

Oh god

spoiler (click to show/hide)
That scene so had me rolling my eyes.  After giving succulent fan service for 15 hours, what's the only way to top it?  Bring the Mythical Figure at the heart of the entire series back to life!  But he isn't even brought back for a meaningful story reason.  He just kind of shows up and talks for a bit, then dies again/
[close]

God, I hated that. It'd be like if Jesus returned for the Second Coming at the end of Revelations, only to die again and say, "Just be cool dawgs, that's all that matters."



The Pain used pheromones, and The Sorrow could have been a schizophrenic break, since Naked Snake is the only person who ever saw him. I am at a loss to explain Volgin's lightning bolts, though. KUWABARA, KUWABARA.

That WAS strange how Volgin just randomly blurted out, "I CARRY 10,000 VOLTS IN MY BODY," yet nobody even blinks an eye or bothers to ask.

At least the Pain makes sense: nobody asked because it's probably rude to ask a man covered in bees, WHY he's covered in bees.
wtc