360 version of Rage will be the worst looking version barring MS policy change

[Crushed]

JOHN CARMACK, CONSOLE FANBOY 

[Wolf Gang]

No, that's going to be my porn site.

[Van Cruncheon]

true game developers: struggling with this generation's sega saturn

[drohne]

this generation would be much more interesting if it had a sega saturn. in fact it's only got two xboxes and an abomination

[Van Cruncheon]

true dat

[JustinP]

i don't think i've ever discounted carmack's engineering skills or intelligence.  i've simply stated that i don't think PS3 is a priority for him, which is evident by him hiring outside help for the ps3 version.  similar to valve, carmack has little desire to actually take the time to learn how to take advantage of ps3's architecture.  both are PC developers who do console ports for a quick buck.  360 is an easy enough port from PC, which is why valve and id are doing it themselves (although Id did outsource quake wars 360).  i don't think carmack is incapable of taking advantage of PS3--it's just not a priority to him.  PS3 has always been the odd duck for multi-platform development and that's all gabe newell and carmack have said.  it takes more "sweat" (money), which draws a bit of frustration and strong opinion from them. 

the current issue, MS's multi-disc royalty policy, is costing carmack money (or game quality), which is why he's expressing strong opinion here, too.

but don't be a moron and try to equate 'harder multiplatform development' to 'less powerful hardware'.  and don't play dumb and make comparisons between the RSX and xenos, while ignoring the fact that ps3 was always designed with utilizing the cell in mind.  despite the fact that many of you stubbornly turn a blind eye to Killzone 2, it's one of the games that proves that PS3 is the more powerful hardware when you write games with it's unique architecture in mind. 

[Van Cruncheon]

how does killzone 2 prove it is more powerful? because you like the look better?

the ps3 is a clusterfuck of a design, and has real limitations. the sega saturn had some ace programmers bring us vf2 and doa, but did that make it superior to the playstation just because no-one on the latter machine attempted similar tricks?

[JustinP]

how does killzone 2 prove it is more powerful? because you like the look better?

the ps3 is a clusterfuck of a design, and has real limitations. the sega saturn had some ace programmers bring us vf2 and doa, but did that make it superior to the playstation just because no-one on the latter machine attempted similar tricks?

only on EB (well, it probably happens on xbox forums too) do you see people acting like killzone 2 is nothing special.  everywhere else, you see comments like "comes close to the CG trailer" (regardless of how true that statement is) and "yes, that's real-time" etc. 

the ps3 does have limitations (biggest being OS ram consumption right now), but it's obviously got power as well.  it's common knowledge that you can't tackle ps3 development like you do PC/360 development, yet you constantly have people trying to claim that "ease of development" = "power."  developers aren't used to working with a cpu like cell, and are even less used to using something like cell to push video.  but ever since the beginning, ps3 was designed for that very thing--you even had tech demos showing vast 3D landscapes rendered real-time without using the RSX at all. 

you could argue that wasn't wise in a market with an increasing number of multiplatform titles (because that's a big reason for why it's harder to get multiplatform games running on ps3), but you can't really make a valid claim that "RSX < xenos, therefor PS3 < 360." 

i know you don't like to admit it, but killzone 2 is more than just nice art direction.  the deffered rendering is a legitimate graphical feature that puts KZ2 above par in lighting (i believe KZ2 is the first game to accomplish it with MSAA, which was considered not possible/viable--it's basically a breakthrough in rendering techniques).  each room has the appearance of having atmosphere and weight to it, which many previewers bring up, and can be attributed to the advanced lighting technique KZ2 utilizes.  the excellent post process effects aren't free, despite you repeatedly using them as the head of a joke to discount the graphics.  good graphics are more than high polycounts and shaders, but i wouldn't really say KZ2 is necessarily lacking in those areas either. 

you can read more about the deferred rendering here: http://www.develop-conference.com/developconference/downloads/vwsection/Deferred%20Rendering%20in%20Killzone.pdf

[cool breeze]

Killzone 2 does look really good, but I still think the grounds are ugly in it and it ends up looking uneven at times.

[cool breeze]

But Killzone Liberation was awesome.  Not to mention that Killzone 2 actually looks like it will be interesting.

I actually never cared about the original Killzone when it was coming out.  If you want to know how little I was looking forward to Killzone, I actually thought the Fugitive Hunter demo was this 'Halo Killer' people were talking about.  The Killzone demo I played was broken.  The other bits I played on a friends console were boring, and again, broken.

[JustinP]

Xenos is better than rsx, though, as all serious devs know by now,  KZ2 is doing some really neat stuff, but it sucks that Sony gets the credit, and not some really sharp guys at Guerilla. That's what pisses me off about people brininging up Killzone; you know they aren't talking about Guerilla or what they're doing (and they are doing a nice job graphically) they are bringing up Sony and a stupid console war.  you want to know how I know?  Because without a big console fight no one in their right mind would give a fuck about Killzone because the first one sucked.

nobody here said RSX was more powerful than xenos...

i don't really see where people are crediting sony for guerilla's work, either.  and even if they were, guerilla is owned by sony....  so it's not like that would even be an inaccurate statement. 

only on EB (well, it probably happens on xbox forums too) do you see people acting like killzone 2 is nothing special.  everywhere else, you see comments like "comes close to the CG trailer" (regardless of how true that statement is) and "yes, that's real-time" etc. 

so everywhere else we see a statement of questionable truth and something we actually know (yes, it IS real time)?

KZ2 looks decent, the question is whether it's going to be a good game or not.

are you intentionally playing dumb?  the point is that most people can recognize the technical aspects of KZ2, where as many here at EB voice the opposite. 

we're discussing the technical aspects of these games and the consoles they run on.  being a good game has little to do with what's being discussed.

though i'm not really sure why i wrote that long post out.  even carmack has voiced that he thinks ps3 is more powerful and that the only problem for him is that it's not practical for a developer in his position to have ps3 as the lead platform.  he's plainly said that 'being 20% easier to develop for is better than being 20% more powerful," which basically mirrors my post about carmack exactly. 

[JustinP]

But Killzone Liberation was awesome.  Not to mention that Killzone 2 actually looks like it will be interesting.

I actually never cared about the original Killzone when it was coming out.  If you want to know how little I was looking forward to Killzone, I actually thought the Fugitive Hunter demo was this 'Halo Killer' people were talking about.  The Killzone demo I played was broken.  The other bits I played on a friends console were boring, and again, broken.

yeah, i think it's pretty obvious that KZ2 has plenty of potential.  i never bothered playing the original KZ.  but the gameplay looks on par with other big shooters and the graphics are definitely way up there.  the idea that someone can discount KZ2 based on KZ1 is ridiculous considering the circumstances are basically as different as you can get.  the guerilla today is a different beast compared to the guerilla behind KZ1. 

[Oblivion]

Killzone 2 is a nice looking game, but is it that impressive? It's 720p, 30fps, with not that many enemies on screen. Sure might seem pretty close to the trailer when you scale stuff down.

[demi]

how? because they made a third person psp game?  FOR FUCKS SAKE AT LEAST TALK ABOUT INFAMOUS.

I dunno man Liberation was kinda fun. Was like Future Cop LAPD.

[JustinP]

Killzone 2 is a nice looking game, but is it that impressive? It's 720p, 30fps, with not that many enemies on screen. Sure might seem pretty close to the trailer when you scale stuff down.

32 players online.  no graphical hit. 

[JustinP]

Demi: liberation was cool, but worth the breathless hype?

if we hadn't seen gameplay footage...  obviously liberation wouldn't warrant the hype.  it gets hype based on what they've shown, which has been quite impressive.  i mean, at worst, it's been compared to a call of duty game . 

[cool breeze]

Liberation at least proved that they could make a great game.  I mean, a big reason why Rage is getting a lot of attention (other than looking great) is because the developers have proven in the past they can make great games.  They have made bad games, sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean that one bad game condemns the developer.  They are at 1-1 now.  Killzone was bad, Liberation was good.  Killzone 2 looks like it will be great, and the developers have proven they could make a great game, so it isn't so hard to imagine that Killzone 2 could also turn out great in the end.  I am not super excited for Killzone 2 or anything, even compared to other PS3 exclusives like Infamous or Resistance 2, but I do think it is looking great.

[cool breeze]

Just curious, but was there any hype for Killzone PSP at all before it came out?

[duckman2000]

I'm saying that for all intents and purposes Killzone 2 looks to be mediocre pap, forgettable to all but a few, but for some fucking reason (stop me if i'm wrong) it gets brought up in very fucking thread for some fucking reason.

What a bunch of shit, dude. Killzone 2 has emerged as a real game, with a seemingly very accomplished multiplayer component and certainly as much of SP value as any recent FPS I can think of. It gets brought up often for its striking presentation (and prior to the recent demonstrations that's all I considered it to be, a striking presentation), that much is true. But arguing at this time that it for all intents and purposes looks to be mediocre is more fucking daft than when people bring it up due to its status as potential console savior. This also makes it easy to gravitate towards agreeing with JustinP here re: forced skepticism, which just plain sucks.

it gets hype based on what they've shown, which has been quite impressive.  i mean, at worst, it's been compared to a call of duty game . 

did you miss the KZ1 hype as well as the game, out of interest?

the KZ2 hype train is an almost exact rerun of the first game.

Not at all. Killzone was hyped in spite of its massive apparent shortcomings (the E3 04 demo was fucking miserable), whereas Killzone 2, while initially certainly hyped mostly for its presentation, has actually proven itself with every demonstration. I'm not willing to bet on Guerrilla to pull it off, but at this point there is certainly more good than bad about the game. People are still doing their best to home in every single flaw, and that's where developer legacy comes in.

[duckman2000]

bullshit and you know it.  i'll eat my crow if it deserves it, but come the fuck on.  this game has been getting the same bullshit hype since the trailer with no gameplay involved.  and since you're all the big pc buffs, you know that fps comes down to very fine execution.

As I said in my edit, I'm not betting on Guerrilla to pull it off. So I'm not going to argue against remaining skeptical of the quality of the final game. But the developer's legacy is also the only real thing people can really criticize the game for at this point. Which is fine, but saying that it looks to be mediocre doesn't mesh with what's actually been shown of the game.

[JustinP]

yeah but guerilla=infinity ward?  come on, i thought you were a big time pc gamer?

guerilla circa kz1 =/= guerilla circa kz2 is what i've been saying.  team size and budget have increased exponentially.  one of KZ's biggest faults was the performance on ps2, and playable demonstrations have proven that KZ2 runs at a solid enough 30fps on ps3 already.   they've made definite improvements since the first killzone and there's nothing to say other aspects of the game can't see similar benefits to the enhanced development team/budget/cycle. 

this thread migrated to a technical discussion.  KZ2 gets brought up because it's technically VERY impressive.  you bring up KZ1 to troll KZ2 and it just shows that you can't distinguish a game's technical aspects from it's gameplay merits. 

for the sake of this silly argument, let's assume KZ2 will suck like you say it will.  let's say KZ2 will be the most dull game this generation.  what the fuck does that have to do with the fact that KZ2 is a VERY impressive technical achievement on consoles?   

edit: as you said here:

the engine is actually pretty fucking impressive from a rendering standpoint.

so, why are you surprised to see it brought up?

[cool breeze]

The hype around that CG trailer was hilarious.  When a CG trailer is done from the perspective you play in, most of the time it will end up being hilarious.  Brothers in Arms did the same shit.

[duckman2000]

Actually, KZ2 was initially brought up to demonstrate that developers who can focus on one, allegedly exotic piece of hardware can tailor-make a game based on the strengths and weaknesses of said hardware. I'm not sure how impressive the game is in terms of performance numbers, but it looks damned good. And presumably that is so because the developer had one set of limitations and clear borders, and had to work brilliantly with it. There are plenty of weak texture work in the footage I've seen, but that's been made all but forgettable due to smart design.

[duckman2000]

Which one, the multiplayer trailer? Did you catch the Gamespot demonstration of that mode? That's what set me off on a "let's give it a chance" bend, and as I recall, multiplayer in Killzone wasn't all bad, sans glitches.

As for other demos, the game seems to be doing at least as much as any other FPS. We'll see if they can tie it together into a good game (while hopefully avoiding annoying dialog), but it looks . There aren't that many great first person shooters out there, and none without serious flaws. And let's face it, people aren't half as skeptical about other shooters. It's in part about Guerrilla, and in part because of system wars shit.

[duckman2000]

Well, watch the Gamespot (or IGN) interview/demo. It shows a lot more from the MP, and it sounds pretty hot. COD4, with deep class and clan support. 

[JustinP]

if by ordinary, you mean a fresh approach to class based multiplayer...  then i think i will enjoy this "ordinary" game.  singleplayer doesn't look like it'll break new ground with gameplay, but i would say the same thing about call of duty 4, halo, and many other big, successful games.  hard to really fault it for that. 

biggest gameplay fault i can throw at it so far is the movement of enemies.  they are slow and similarly to HL2, slow enemies make the AI seem dumb and unresponsive (even if the AI is flanking you, it certainly won't seem that way if they're in a light jog and gunned down during their 2nd step).  hopefully they'll address that, but personally i play FPS for their multiplayer, and KZ2's multiplayer sounds rad and i'm looking forward to more previews we'll see soon.  TF2 with mix-and-match hybrid classes and player progression/leveling?  yes please. 

[cool breeze]

One thing that Killzone 2 looks like it is actually doing better than most other FPS games is making the guns seem powerful.  Black was another game that did this and I really liked it because of it.  Even in CoD4, everything felt weak, and even if that was supposed to be realistic...well, I wanted it to be Commando.  I don't know what gun it was, but some bolt action one I saw in a live demo looked awesome. Looks like guns have a nice powerful feeling and the reactions from enemies will probably add to the satisfaction of it.  The revolver also looks amazing.  Although that tank bit in the gamevideos video did look a bit lame.

[JustinP]

yeah the tank part seems lame, and par for the course for most FPS.  tank vs tank gameplay never seems to make a splash.  the slow moving fireball projectiles are odd, too--understandably slow so that you can dodge them in the slow tank, but i think there's more creative ways to do tank battle (edit: remember battletanx? ). 

[duckman2000]

One thing that Killzone 2 looks like it is actually doing better than most other FPS games is making the guns seem powerful.  Black was another game that did this and I really liked it because of it.

That, and things like actual cover system and decent gun motion are certainly welcome. Hopefully it works as good as it looks though, seems a bit floaty.

[cool breeze]

I thought Resistance and Crysis did tank segments well.  The key is to have you in a tank against weak enemies on foot or weak vehicles.  What fun is it to be a tank when you are fighting another tank? I want to be able to blow things up and watch the enemies who gave me trouble die by the handfuls in one blast.

[duckman2000]

I remember playing Halo, getting my ass kicked by elites and random enemies, and actually cackling out loud when I came back to the battle scene armed with a tank. Those types of moments. 

Speaking of Resistance though, it's hard to not feel that Insomniac is being overshadowed by Guerrilla again. That sort of sucks, because looking at both developer legacy and announced feature lists, Resistance seems to be shitting all over Killzone 2.

[demi]

Demi: liberation was cool, but worth the breathless hype?

I dunno if there was hype, it was one of the first PSP games I downloaded when I hacked my PSP, lol

[cool breeze]

I remember playing Halo, getting my ass kicked by elites and random enemies, and actually cackling out loud when I came back to the battle scene armed with a tank. Those types of moments. 

Speaking of Resistance though, it's hard to not feel that Insomniac is being overshadowed by Guerrilla again. That sort of sucks, because looking at both developer legacy and announced feature lists, Resistance seems to be shitting all over Killzone 2.

I am guessing that is because Killzone 2 is more of a game you can show off and impress people.  Personally, I am much more excited about Resistance 2 than Killzone 2.  In terms of console only shooters, I would say that Resistance 2 has be excited on the same level that I was for Halo 2 back in the day.  It looks like it is going to be really great.

i think some of the ex-black team are now at GG by the way.

but funny that you mentioned the feeling of power with Black as they had to increase the bullet tollerance of the original game to what we actually got becuase it made the game way too short.
 
That actually irked me about Black - it felt like a disconnect when i had to plug each enemy with numerous bullets to drop them.

Yeah, that was a bit annoying.  I still think PDZ has the worst case of enemies that don't die because you didn't kill them hard enough yet.  I remember some cases I would shoot someone, run up and punch them, still need to shoot them...still they weren't dead.

[duckman2000]

That actually irked me about Black - it felt like a disconnect when i had to plug each enemy with numerous bullets to drop them.

But, blowing the shit out of buildings was shit hot hot shit. I know a lot of people disliked the lack of blood, but I felt that it fit the big action movie feel of the game perfectly.

Black 

I am guessing that is because Killzone 2 is more of a game you can show off and impress people.

Yeah, I don't fault Sony for pushing Killzone 2, but even the supposed "gamers" on message boards everywhere are falling for it. But then I guess I am too, a little bit.

[drohne]

i thought killzone 1 had excellent visual design even if it fumbled the whole 'game' part -- i'm hoping the sequel turns out well

[AdmiralViscen]

This is definitely distinguished mentally-challenged.

But Killzone Liberation was awesome.  Not to mention that Killzone 2 actually looks like it will be interesting.

I actually never cared about the original Killzone when it was coming out.  If you want to know how little I was looking forward to Killzone, I actually thought the Fugitive Hunter demo was this 'Halo Killer' people were talking about.  The Killzone demo I played was broken.  The other bits I played on a friends console were boring, and again, broken.

yeah, i think it's pretty obvious that KZ2 has plenty of potential.  i never bothered playing the original KZ.  but the gameplay looks on par with other big shooters and the graphics are definitely way up there.  the idea that someone can discount KZ2 based on KZ1 is ridiculous considering the circumstances are basically as different as you can get.  the guerilla today is a different beast compared to the guerilla behind KZ1. 

this thread migrated to a technical discussion.  KZ2 gets brought up because it's technically VERY impressive.  you bring up KZ1 to troll KZ2 and it just shows that you can't distinguish a game's technical aspects from it's gameplay merits.

Aren't you the one arguing that a bigger budget and a larger team = better gameplay?

[Van Cruncheon]

the point, even though it smacked into justinp's face and left a glistening snail trail down his cheek, is that he is no position to assess kz2's purported technical superiority based off screen shots, trade show testimonials and videos. the "argument from awe" doesn't even work for god and john carmack, much less kz2 and a half-baked abandoned tech like the cell; and, let's face it, a message board fanboy doesn't have the ability or technical perspective to meaningfully claim that the 360 couldn't produce identical or better visuals, although he certainly conflates his sense of awe with technical accomplishment, as opposed to mere presentation. then again, what is the internet if not a surplus of useless breath

[patrickula]

So, to sum up:

Carmack: 360 sucks because we need to pay to use more than 2 discs.

dfyb: Carmack is right.  PS3 rules, 360 drools.

Carmack in new interview: PS3 is weaker than the 360 in almost all practical cases and is poorly designed.  Sony forces developers to delay the launch of multi-platform games while devs finish wrestling their bizarro-world hardware.

dfyb: Carmack is a lazy, out of touch dev.  Uh, btw, that Killzone 2 game looks pretty good doesn't it?

[cool breeze]

It came off more as Carmack saying that making a great looking game on PS3 is a huge clusterfuck operation, while making a great looking game on 360 is much more simple.  Carmack even said right there that at the end of the day people would compare the final outcome and say "oh, PS3 version looks better, thus it is more powerful" without realizing they had to work twice as hard to get it at that level.  It isn't a lazy dev thing, it is as he said: Sony didn't consider developers when making the PS3.  It isn't that the PS3 isn't very powerful, or even possibly more so than the 360, but getting those results are incredibly hard given the development cycles on most games.  This is probably why you exclusive Sony games looking great compared to the multiplatform games, which almost always are inferior to the 360 versions.  I'm really don't think developers like Insomniac, Naughty Dog, etc really prefer the complicated ways of working with the PS3, but it is something they chose and had to learn from it.  They are lucky enough that they can invest the time to learning how to develop for the PS3 since they need not worry about the 360, PC or any other device.

[ManaByte]

Sony blocking late ports that don't have enhancements. 

MS had a similar policy last gen. If you wanted to port a PS2 game to the Xbox a certain number of months after its original release; you had to add something new like additional levels or characters that the PS2 version didn't have.

[cubicle47b]

Who is this impostor?  The real Manabyte met his end by stepping in front of a semi somewhere in the Midwest after hitting bottom.

[demi]

For real, isnt that nicca supposed to be dead?

[Brehvolution]

wizen fwum da gwayve...

[Joe Molotov]

For real, isnt that nicca supposed to be dead?

[Wolf Gang]

... half-baked abandoned tech like the cell; ...

Now that's wishful thinking for even an Xfag.

[Brehvolution]

[JustinP]

dfyb: Carmack is right.  PS3 rules, 360 drools.

well, i didn't say this. i made a thread about the news that carmack is frustrated with MS's per-disc royalty fee. 

dfyb: Carmack is a lazy, out of touch dev.  Uh, btw, that Killzone 2 game looks pretty good doesn't it?

and i didn't say he was lazy, either.  as far as being out of touch goes, i think carmack spelled it out himself.  he doesn't network with the industry, he doesn't play competitors games (he only analyzes the technical aspects of the games), and he was disappointed by the sales of a cell phone game he ported to DS, coming to the conclusion that DS wasn't good for third parties. 

[JustinP]

"You could design a game where the PS3 would be the superior platform, but you'd have to go out of your way to do it. If you're doing a game like people just want to do games now, the 360's the better platform."

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=203956

new statements that are consistent with what he's been saying and are pretty much mirroring what i had already been saying about carmack's comments.  i know you guys like to pin every sfag tendency on me, but i was never one to discount carmack's engineering skills. i never even called him lazy.   

[AdmiralViscen]

There is a possibility for a PS3 port but not for a little while; there is a limited-time exclusivity in place.

I think it might be pretty hard to port Braid to the PS3 (speaking as someone who has done PS3 programming before). Jeff at RAD Game Tools tells me they have a pretty fast Vorbis decoder that (I think) uses the SPUs, so that is one of the main stumbling blocks. But there are other parts of Braid that are more expensive CPU-wise than you might think, and they might have trouble running at sufficient speed on the PS3.

I probably would hire someone to port it, though (given that I have the money to do that) since I would rather be working on the next game.

[JustinP]

i hope you aren't suggesting what i think you're suggesting

[Pharmacy]

do any of you ever look at the words you've just written and think "wow, im a big fucking taco. im arguing about videogames with other people on the internet. hmm mabye i should kill myself"

[AdmiralViscen]

I don't think you're capable of picking up what I'm suggesting

spoiler (click to show/hide)

that this thread is distinguished mentally-challenged

[close]

[demi]

do any of you ever look at the words you've just written and think "wow, im a big fucking distinguished effete fellow. im arguing about videogames with other people on the internet. hmm mabye i should kill myself"

I do

[Pharmacy]

do any of you ever look at the words you've just written and think "wow, im a big fucking distinguished effete fellow. im arguing about videogames with other people on the internet. hmm mabye i should kill myself"

I do

cool

[Pharmacy]

not quite, but when the wife sticks her head over my shoulder she will some times ask "why do you care about what this asshat thinks? Let him think whatever he wants , you are never going to change an idiots mind, so why bother? Why don't you play some games instead?" i do think "good fucking lord, what am i doing?!"

she's right.

see its stuff like that that means i will never ever post a pic of myself cos if my friends found out and read all my other posts it'd be pretty embarassing really

keep internet seperate from IRL

[cool breeze]

I actually would love to have a conversation about video games in real life, but none of my friends are big into games (only new console they own is the Wii).  Last time I had a great conversation was when I was in elementary or middle school when I was a Nintendo fan who argued with my friend, a Sony fan, that OoT is a far better game than FF7.  At least I was right in the end and he acknowledges it.

[JustinP]

yeah i don't really have conversations about games with my friends so i do it online.  i know very well that it can get ridiculous.  i don't really take it seriously either way though.  it's just an easy way to procrastinate. 

[Brehvolution]

do any of you ever look at the words you've just written and think "wow, im a big fucking distinguished effete fellow. im arguing about videogames with other people on the internet. hmm mabye i should kill myself"

[JustinP]

do any of you ever look at the words you've just written and think "wow, im a big fucking distinguished effete fellow. im arguing about videogames with other people on the internet. hmm mabye i should kill myself"

(Image removed from quote.)

yeah, that image is perfect. 

[Wolf Gang]

I know that NeoGAF didn't ban you guys for being hippie hugging groupies, so WTF is going on in this thread?