Author Topic: Killzone beta, bitches!  (Read 18364 times)

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duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2008, 02:08:15 AM »
At first I was thinking that it was because I was in the R2 beta, but I barely even participated in that one. And I've trolled the living shit out of Killzone 2, so it can't be because they like me.
No you haven't.

Oh really, are we going to lie now?

Come on duckman, you've always said you were excited for the marketting opportunities Sony has due to the KZ2 graphics and artstyle. Repeatedly you've said you think KZ2 could be big and that you're very excited for but still 'manage' expectations because of KZ1. I

You troll Rare, not Sony or KZ2.

Er, so because I believe that Killzone 2 can be huge and that it's massively marketable, that somehow equates to me supporting the game? Hell, I said as much about Killzone 1, even after playing that shit game for myself; quality be damned, it's a very marketable property. That's sort of what you get when you combine nazi symbolism with gritty sci-fi.

I believed the Wii was going to be a hit too, doesn't make me a supporter. My tone about KZ1 has changed since the multiplayer unveil, and the beta supports the new tone. Before that, though? I'd give nods to the audiovisual presentation, and the marketability. A bit like Killzone 1, really.

MrAngryFace

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2008, 02:10:28 AM »
Im more interested in SP, I dont do MP much, if at all.
o_0

Tieno

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2008, 02:17:03 AM »
At first I was thinking that it was because I was in the R2 beta, but I barely even participated in that one. And I've trolled the living shit out of Killzone 2, so it can't be because they like me.
No you haven't.

Oh really, are we going to lie now?

Come on duckman, you've always said you were excited for the marketting opportunities Sony has due to the KZ2 graphics and artstyle. Repeatedly you've said you think KZ2 could be big and that you're very excited for but still 'manage' expectations because of KZ1. I

You troll Rare, not Sony or KZ2.

Er, so because I believe that Killzone 2 can be huge and that it's massively marketable, that somehow equates to me supporting the game? Hell, I said as much about Killzone 1, even after playing that shit game for myself; quality be damned, it's a very marketable property. That's sort of what you get when you combine nazi symbolism with gritty sci-fi.

I believed the Wii was going to be a hit too, doesn't make me a supporter. My tone about KZ1 has changed since the multiplayer unveil, and the beta supports the new tone. Before that, though? I'd give nods to the audiovisual presentation, and the marketability. A bit like Killzone 1, really.

Not trolling something doesn't mean you support it duckman. Being cautiously optimistic is not trolling the living shit.  I don't troll R2 (I'm negative about the beta though), doesn't mean I like or support it. I troll Home cause it's a joke though.
i

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2008, 02:19:20 AM »
Im more interested in SP, I dont do MP much, if at all.

You might want to pass on Resistance, then. I couldn't bring myself to play past the Chimera processing plant in the first Resistance. I'll force myself to trudge through the single player in Resistance 2 since I actually bought it. Multiplayer is what I look for in games, these days.

MrAngryFace

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2008, 02:20:32 AM »
Yeah I get that. Im just more of a PC FPSer, and those usually have a lot of story for people who dont wanna MP.
o_0

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2008, 03:22:13 AM »
Check out the latest multiplayer trailers. That's basically what it looks like. What you don't see so much of in the trailers are all the atmospheric touches; flying debris, sparks bouncing violently on the ground from explosions, and the (partially) destructible environments (think Black, but with more precision, and material falling off and piling up). They have crafted a very hostile atmosphere here.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 04:13:04 PM by duckman2000 »

patrickula

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2008, 09:43:58 AM »
So, how's it play?  Can you say?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 09:47:10 AM by patrickula »

Don Flamenco

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2008, 10:19:04 AM »
why are all these Sony games like 40, 60, 128 (MAG?) players?   A smaller well-crafted game is more fun than a 40 player shit fest.

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2008, 11:14:51 AM »
why are all these Sony games like 40, 60, 128 (MAG?) players?   A smaller well-crafted game is more fun than a 40 player shit fest.

It's nice to have the option to go for larger scale games if you want it. It's not like you're forced to play 32 player games; as I said above, I found the 16 player matches to be a lot better. But the levels are intricate and large enough to support more without a problem, while still being quite intimate.

As for MAG, that's just another level altogether. And that's 256, not 128.

well, it's certainly sounding like we got a REAL old ass demo at TGS because it was pretty shite then, and things like the destructable environments had to be triggered by hitting strategically placed boxes.

so talk of things that were obviously missing from the demo - that's good news !

p.s. the demo itself was , gameplaywise, pretty generic too - not offensive, just a very ordinary by-the-numbers shooter.

Just so that we're clear, when I say "destructible environment" here, I'm referring to small but neat things like material being chipped away from pillars. Nothing of the collapsing structure variety in MP as far as I've seen. It's nothing jaw-droppingly amazing, but it does add something to the game, makes it feel a bit less static. Which goes well with the overall style here, as there's a lot of motion on screen; banners flying in the wind, debris filling the air, hostile clouds rage above. Very atmospheric.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 11:25:12 AM by duckman2000 »

Don Flamenco

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2008, 12:08:36 PM »
The only big team game I've enjoyed is TF2...pretty much a given that KZ2 (or any PS3 game for that matter) won't be on that level.  It's like an instant turnoff. 

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2008, 12:10:45 PM »
Then play 16 player matches. Or hell, 8 player matches.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 06:58:46 PM by duckman2000 »

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2008, 12:28:04 PM »
Well, that's not going to happen. Besides, you'd get better results just grabbing stills from the MP trailers. That's what the game looks like.

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #72 on: November 06, 2008, 12:31:16 PM »
You whine a lot.

Smooth Groove

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2008, 12:33:03 PM »
Well, that's not going to happen. Besides, you'd get better results just grabbing stills from the MP trailers. That's what the game looks like.

Then wtf is the point of this thread.

"HEY GUYS THE GAME IS AMAZING! The xxxxxx GUN SHOOTS xxxxxxxx AND ITS SO COOOOOL BECAUSE THEY xxxxx ALL OVER THE xxxxxxx!!!! GOTY!!"

honest impressions from other EB posters >>>> intentionally non-negative previews at gaming websites.  

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #74 on: November 06, 2008, 12:36:31 PM »
But the bETA is under an NDA, so what the fuck kind of impressions will we get?

The stuff that you've been getting. Which you would notice weren't you so determined on being a whiny twit. I'm not going to post screens, in part because of the NDA and in part because you would, in fact, get better results just grabbing screens from the official trailers. It's really not that fucking complicated. I don't see a problem with posting about things that can be seen in trailers or read about in previews, but that's about it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 04:15:10 PM by duckman2000 »

y2kev

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2008, 12:49:34 PM »
whiny twit  :lol
haw

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2008, 04:03:01 PM »
I've seeeeen the trailers already. I wanna see things like the UI, the matchmaking interface, I wanna see the game actually being played.

Have you checked Youtube? I'm pretty sure all of that has been leaked in video form.

Arbys Roast Beef Sandwich

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2008, 05:57:13 PM »
Welp mojo, someone broke NDA just for you:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13531190&postcount=627






PS the pics do NOT do the game justice.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 06:01:19 PM by Arbys Roast Beef Sandwich »
うぐう

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2008, 06:01:54 PM »
I just don't get what the point is of breaking the NDA. Maybe information about the game, but screens? It's not like there is a lack of media of the game out there. And as you say, screens don't do it justice anyway.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 06:03:39 PM by duckman2000 »

Smooth Groove

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2008, 06:28:35 PM »
I know that KZ2 is just using faked and baked post-processing effects but it still looks really hot. 

Stupid Sony should have released KZ2 instead of R2 this fall.  :punch

Don Flamenco

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2008, 06:31:15 PM »
we've been hearing for the past 3 years how this game is like 10 versions of Crysis all running on Ultra settings combined, but how does it play?

edit: jeez the gaf thread is lame. it's all "OMG mother sony will ban you...why would you betray her by breaking NDA?"  Corporate loyalty is the saddest thing ever.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 06:45:48 PM by Kranz Fafka »

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2008, 06:57:17 PM »
Maybe they think that it will get them specially selected for future betas. I understand perfectly the need for NDAs, but this policing gets to be a little bit ridiculous. I got annoyed during the Warhawk beta because people were posting full reviews of what was an expressed WIP, and long lists about their problems with the game. Now, that might have been useful had they actually posted about it in the beta forum, but they posted about it on GAF and other forums. Sort of misses the point of the beta, if you ask me. But there is a chasm between disagreeing with it, and running to the beta forum to tell moderators about NDA breaches.

Don Flamenco

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2008, 07:05:44 PM »
Sony "betas" are marketing anyway. Did they even give people a list of instructions of how to report bugs?  Otherwise it's gonna be "dudez i like teh assalt riffle but the grenayds are don't look kewl enough fix that k." 

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2008, 07:12:58 PM »
Two of five Sony betas I've been in have certainly been betas, in the most PC gaming sense of the word. Warhawk, and this one. I'm not sure what the hell Resistance 2 was, LBP was a demo, and SOCOM... well, I wouldn't know; I only got to play one or two games.

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #84 on: November 06, 2008, 11:32:34 PM »
we've been hearing for the past 3 years how this game is like 10 versions of Crysis all running on Ultra settings combined, but how does it play?

I'm more impressed by how good the game actually is than I am with the audiovisual presentation, to be honest. Not saying that it doesn't look spectacular, but I guess I already knew that it would look great. I'd recommend this to anyone who is into online MP, and particularly to someone who likes objective based MP, classes and rewards for progression. This is really good.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 11:51:12 PM by duckman2000 »

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2008, 03:21:21 AM »
Someone do me a favor and blatantly disagree with jett here, about the maps in the beta looking "pretty much the same"

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13547482&postcount=955

cool breeze

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2008, 03:24:05 AM »
How should the argument go? I don't really have any grounds to judge it myself.  Well, others are doing it anyway.

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2008, 03:26:08 AM »
Alright, as long as someone is.  :punch

Cormacaroni

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #88 on: November 08, 2008, 12:00:06 PM »
So is it any good?

Yes, can we get to the money shot please? blue balls here! This is now the only shooter other than Gears (which I've bought) and Left 4 Dead (which i'm increasingly tempted to, but will largely depend on whether friends buy it and i have time) left on my radar.
vjj

Arbys Roast Beef Sandwich

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #89 on: November 08, 2008, 02:22:44 PM »
So is it any good?

I hate to be premature about it(:-*) but I would say I've enjoyed playing the Beta more than playing Gears 2 online.
うぐう

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #90 on: November 08, 2008, 03:01:18 PM »
So is it any good?

I hate to be premature about it(:-*) but I would say I've enjoyed playing the Beta more than playing Gears 2 online.

I haven't played Gears 2 online yet, but this is very good. Once you get used to the unforgiving style of it, and get into a group of people who also get that, it's pretty awesome. It remains to be seen where SP lands, but as far as MP goes, I think this is going to be pretty big.

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #91 on: November 08, 2008, 03:18:00 PM »
Just read this...

Quote from: RiotPelaaja
I've played the entire game, a press event at Guerrilla past week, US press next week, so us euro's are hoping to ruin their scoops, but there's an embargo.

Suffice to say, there IS variety in the game, ater the first four chapters, you move onto very different enviroments and there's more variety in the gameplay than you'd think in the beginning.

Fucking excellent game and tons of DLC is coming...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13548681&postcount=969

So there's a possibility that SP is just as good as the MP  :hyper

Arbys Roast Beef Sandwich

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #92 on: November 08, 2008, 06:11:45 PM »
Hey duckman, have you tried playing all day today? I couldn't connect to the server all day for some reason.
うぐう

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #93 on: November 08, 2008, 10:47:16 PM »
Yeah, I checked a few hours ago and it was down. So I started playing Resistance 2 instead :gloomy :'(

Don Flamenco

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #94 on: November 08, 2008, 10:53:03 PM »
Yeah, I checked a few hours ago and it was down. So I started playing Resistance 2 instead :gloomy :'(

Killzone is a failure confirmed.  It's never going to sell any copies. I know Japanese culture very well and they stand by honor. 

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #95 on: November 09, 2008, 03:25:23 AM »
:bow Killzone 2 :bow2
:bow Guerrilla :bow2

Purple Filth

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #96 on: November 11, 2008, 01:01:59 AM »
Quote from: Snoopers
I just played through several chapters of the SP campaign. Can't say anything since there's an embargo, but I've been quite negative about the game until E3 and I just wanted to share that I absolutely love it. And that it looks incredible, hyperbole aside. Waaaay better than E3/GDC demo level. Chapter 2-3 is gonna kick some serious ass in terms of atmosphere and immersion, it really feels like you're in the middle of a war, I've never seen something like this. Props Guerrilla, you did it !

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13580740&postcount=1452

even snoopers is giving it some nice praise which is crazy since he was very down on it a few months ago (to the point were fanboys were agressively sniping him for being an xbot due to his site's former reputation)

And i guess the embargo will be up on December 4th
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 01:38:09 AM by Purple Filth »

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #97 on: November 11, 2008, 02:06:52 AM »
I don't think people were unfair in giving him shit though. But yeah, that makes the endorsement all the more awesome to hear. I want everything about this game to be awesome now, given how good the MP is.

But there is still room to give Snoopers shit:

"For exemple I was playing Resistance 2 just before, and it's like day and night. In Resistance the controls feel like a PC game, it's extremely precise and smooth. In Killzone it's different, it's slower, it really floats."

Yeah, some weight to the motion really sucks, it should be more like Resistance!

Wat
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 02:09:09 AM by duckman2000 »

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #98 on: November 11, 2008, 02:16:40 AM »
I wonder if the SP will have those crazy Helghast wardogs in it?  :omg

Tieno

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #99 on: November 11, 2008, 11:37:42 AM »
Is there still a way to get into the beta? MP might be too hard/not straightforward enough for me (classes)
i

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #100 on: November 11, 2008, 11:51:28 AM »
I think it's pretty much closed at this point; AFAIK only one wave of codes went out, and no one seems to know what the selection process was.

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #101 on: November 12, 2008, 01:25:12 PM »
The problem with being in a beta for a progress reward style game is that it's going to suck some major shit having to go through and earn the rewards again.  :gloomy

On the upside, at least my embarrassing K/D ratio will be thrown out too.  :hyper

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #102 on: November 12, 2008, 01:54:17 PM »
Well, that's pretty standard for betas, in my experience; they don't typically want people stressing about K/D ratio and other stats to get in the way of thoroughly testing the game. But it's a bit more painful in a game that rewards you with classes, abilities and weapons that aren't just different versions of the same basic type that you start out with.

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #103 on: November 12, 2008, 04:28:05 PM »
One thing that deserves a comment is how different this game looks from the rest. I've read some posts from people who are calling for other games to use this "engine," and that seems pretty ridiculous given that this is far more of an achievement in terms design than it is a technological wonder. The tech is obviously quite, er, solid, but the real magic comes from how Guerrilla has balanced everything.

To give a real, recent example, if you're looking at Resistance 2, you can tell that they are trying to emulate a certain look and force it to run on a system, making for a pretty uneven and generally unspectacular looking product.

This one, however, seems to be designed for the system. There are plenty of not-so detailed textures here, but somehow it works, maybe in part because the objects in question don't call for perfect detail. And even the textures that are genuinely sharp are still somewhat muted, so as to keep a good image balance as opposed to the extreme drop-off you'd find in a game like Resistance 2. And whatever weaknesses there are, they are made up for tenfold by for example the great work on atmospheric and ambient effects. So they have effectively managed to harness both the strengths and the weaknesses of the system, and the result is a spectacular and unique looking game. Not everything holds up to close scrutiny, but I don't think that matters.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 04:42:14 PM by duckman2000 »

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #104 on: November 12, 2008, 08:24:22 PM »
Someone posted these on GAF. Doesn't show off any action though, but they give you an idea of what the environments are like. I'd say the game actually looks better in daylight.

http://www.wipido.com/video/qVc6QhW8SF4g
http://www.wipido.com/video/vfn6tWK9wkZs


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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #105 on: November 12, 2008, 08:33:49 PM »
Doesn't look close to Gears 2, but it shits on R2
010

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #106 on: November 12, 2008, 08:36:00 PM »

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #107 on: November 12, 2008, 09:27:48 PM »
That guy seems pretty obsessed with the destructible environments. Like I said earlier, it does add something to the game, makes it feel more organic or some such, but it's not consistent, meaning only some things are affected by explosions and gunfire. Most of the things you think you should be destructible are, but then you have the case of some pillars being torn to pieces whereas others are unaffected. What's there looks really good, and behaves well, but it's allegedly been toned down a lot in MP.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 09:30:23 PM by duckman2000 »

Smooth Groove

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #108 on: November 12, 2008, 09:30:57 PM »
How's the FOV?  It looks kinda cramped in the shots above. 

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #109 on: November 12, 2008, 09:34:58 PM »
How's the FOV?  It looks kinda cramped in the shots above. 

The view and the general gunplay feel pretty much perfect, but it takes time getting used to the fact that there is weight behind the motion. Like, if you're used to fast strafing, you'd need to adjust to the strafing feel of it here. I've been trying to slog through Resistance 2 side by side with playing KZ2, and I can't deal with the aiming in R2 now.
The FOV seems fine to me.

On a somewhat related note, I'd say these guys have done a much, much better job providing gun porn than Criterion ever did. The guns feel lethal, and this (limited) destructibility adds to that feel.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 09:44:13 PM by duckman2000 »

Draft

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #110 on: November 12, 2008, 09:45:14 PM »
Altogether Andrews, your excitement for Killzone 2 is infectious.

There's just so many of your posts per page! Why, if I had a dime for every time you posted in this thread, I'd have several dollars!

drohne

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #111 on: November 12, 2008, 09:46:17 PM »
the environment destruction in that second video is hot -- i hope that kind of thing is extensive in the full game

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #112 on: November 12, 2008, 09:49:14 PM »
does the game run at 20fps like those videos
duc

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #113 on: November 12, 2008, 09:52:17 PM »
Altogether Andrews, your excitement for Killzone 2 is infectious.

There's just so many of your posts per page! Why, if I had a dime for every time you posted in this thread, I'd have several dollars!

Well, I'm the only one here playing it. If it helps any, know that it is by no means perfect. If this was like the R2 beta, meaning that we were playing it after it went gold, my excitement would be a lot more restrained. I really don't know where people get off on saying that it should be released now.

cool breeze

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #114 on: November 12, 2008, 10:28:38 PM »
those videos make this game look really good.

I somewhat see what prole is talking about with it looking 20 fps.  For some reason I think all the motion blur and heavy animations make it seem that way while its actually 30.  I don't know.

I really liked how there seemed to be real weight to the bits that get blown off the wall, but the smaller bits fading away is a bit lame.

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #115 on: November 12, 2008, 10:37:06 PM »
I was surprised to notice that the bigger bits actually function as "obstacles" when you walk across the rubble, in that they provide the same shift  you'd get from other, preset ground obstacles. But yeah, limited destructibility. It makes for a good addition to the warzone feel (and make bazooka hits very satisfying), but that's it.

As for the framerate, it's beautifully smooth most of the time. Chokes some in crazy firefights with max player count, but hey, it's a beta.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 10:42:07 PM by duckman2000 »

cool breeze

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #116 on: November 12, 2008, 10:44:51 PM »
The night clip looks just as good.  Unless there are low textures or aliasing problems when actually playing, this might actually be the best looking console game (until Rage).  Like, this looks really damn good.  My biggest complaint from previous videos was how unnatural the ground looked, but that problem seems to be taken care of.  I also really like how it has a large sense of self, almost like Mirror's Edge but to a smaller degree.

duckman2000

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #117 on: November 12, 2008, 10:51:36 PM »
As said, it seems to be smartly designed and built around the shortcomings of the system. A game like Resistance 2 is designed to look like those other games on that other system, irrespective of whether or not the targeted system supports that approach, but this one is different. It's not perfect (textures commonly lack detail and don't hold up well to close inspection, yet they somehow fit right in), but the good just plain smothers the bad and leaves it for dead.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 10:53:16 PM by duckman2000 »

WrikaWrek

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #118 on: November 13, 2008, 04:55:54 AM »
I must say i've become a true believer.

This game is gonna rock. It's the next Gears of War for sure.

dark1x

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Re: Killzone beta, bitches!
« Reply #119 on: November 13, 2008, 08:10:06 AM »
Quote
does the game run at 20fps like those videos

bu bu bu that's just because they added weight to everything... including the players eyes it would seem.

(game looks a lot nicer in these shots than at tgs, i'm certainly picking it up!)

It runs at a solid 30 fps as of now, though.