12 Killzone 2 videos: thread dedicated to duckman

[y2kev]

i dropped in on hornets for the second fight with my coop partner

[WrikaWrek]

Not to diss on Kz2 or anything, but seeing how scripted it is, how the waves of enemies are scripted in the game, how limited the environment vs enemy seems to be, i don't see anything close to Halo 3 in Kz2.

Bears repeating, it's much more COD than anything else, in the way it plays out, although the feel of the mechanics themselves are different.

[Brehvolution]

WTF is this shit?!?

Can't a nukka play a game in peace?

"oh, its just like this shoota..."

cmon

[y2kev]

Cod's popularity (it IS more popular than halo now) is something we will need to come to grips with. though even kz1 was codish, so you already know what to expect.

[cool breeze]

i dropped in on hornets for the second fight with my coop partner

Same here.  That part was so awesome and I felt like a total badass landing and taking care of business before bailing out for the next one. 

I still need to do Halo 3 4 player co-op one day and am a bit mad they don't let you with 4 random people.

[duckman2000]

Well, I guess we've come full circle; I still think it looks more like Rainbow Six than COD.  In terms level and mission design, not gameplay. It's not really that there is anything wrong with scripted stuff, but I feel like we're rapidly being drowned in them. What's Novalogic doing these days?

Do we know anything more about the Gamersyde situation, by the way?

[duckman2000]

Speaking of which, I just noticed that the beta is still alive.  Such a sweet shotgun. 

[brawndolicious]

Well, I guess we've come full circle; I still think it looks more like Rainbow Six than COD.  In terms level and mission design, not gameplay.

How is it at all like R6?

There's a lot of similarities to CoD because basically every encounter looks pretty scripted.

[duckman2000]

Well, I guess we've come full circle; I still think it looks more like Rainbow Six than COD.  In terms level and mission design, not gameplay.

How is it at all like R6?

There's a lot of similarities to CoD because basically every encounter looks pretty scripted.

Have you actually played a Rainbow Six game as of late? Or a COD? Combat is multi-planar, with several path options and hardpoints per plane. That in itself separates it significantly from standard COD design, and outs it far closer to Rainbow Six design. Add slower pacing and a cover fire system, and it's absolutely more of Rainbow Six than it is COD.

[duckman2000]

Have you actually played a Rainbow Six game as of late? Or a COD? Combat is multi-planar, with several path options and hardpoints per plane. That in itself separates it significantly from standard COD design, and outs it far closer to Rainbow Six design. Add slower pacing and a cover fire system, and it's absolutely more of Rainbow Six than it is COD.

huh? we are talking about single player here?

the TGS demo was -nothing- like Rainbow 6.

unless you are talking about multiplayer.

I'm also talking about more than the TGS demo, like for example what's in the videos from the OP. I'm not saying it'd fit in seamlessly as Rainbow Six Helghan, but if we're going to reference other games, it's certainly a hell of a lot closer to that model than it is to for example COD4.

[brawndolicious]

I finished both the Vegas games and this isn't like R6 at all.  There are NO alternative ways to finish the fights in KZ2 because you have a relatively limited amount of different equipment/guns and the AI is not dynamic.  Vegas was awesome because the enemies were smart, forcing you to outgun/outgear them if  you wanted a chance at getting past them.  The gamersyde videos show that the guy is not playing it on god mode and  yet he only dies once when an enemy is 10 feet away from him.  The player sucks but he's having no real difficulty finding and shooting the enemies.  The scripting is obvious because the enemies just ignore you most of the time and they even fall over the same rail in the exact same spot a lot of times.

It's basically like CoD with a cover system but stupider AI.

[WrikaWrek]

The only difference between Vegas and COD is how the spawning works.

You still have trigger points in vegas, like Cod. Then the mechanics of the game change it. KZ has cover, but it doesn't have squad, which means the mechanics are some way between COD and Vegas, but that's besides the point.

My point was, alongside with trigger points in KZ, you also have the spawning that according to what i read/heard, works like COD, you have to push forward.

[brawndolicious]

You take cover in every FPS.  Cover actually seems more necessary in CoD than KZ2.

[duckman2000]

I finished both the Vegas games and this isn't like R6 at all.  There are NO alternative ways to finish the fights in KZ2 because you have a relatively limited amount of different equipment/guns and the AI is not dynamic.  Vegas was awesome because the enemies were smart, forcing you to outgun/outgear them if  you wanted a chance at getting past them.  The gamersyde videos show that the guy is not playing it on god mode and  yet he only dies once when an enemy is 10 feet away from him.  The player sucks but he's having no real difficulty finding and shooting the enemies.  The scripting is obvious because the enemies just ignore you most of the time and they even fall over the same rail in the exact same spot a lot of times.

The "A.I." is about as dynamic as that room layout allows them to be, on a generally daft, albeit very accurate, level. And of course, Rainbow Six Vegas has its own vast share of scripted encounters, with enemies appearing in the same spots at the same time, every time. Not to mention that it's indeed very possible to from time to time get very close to enemies in Vegas, thanks to odd pockets of remarkable A.I. stupidity. Better still is when you can fire off a rifle round and take out a terrorist on the stairs across the yard, without actually alerting the patrol guard who stands 20ft away from you. How elite.

 It'd be nice if Vegas was actually up to the standards you have set here, but it really is not. Higher difficulties add increased lethality to the mix, but that's about all that can be said for it.

It's basically like CoD with a cover system but stupider AI.

You really should check out the COD games one of these days, at least if you're going to insist on comparing them to other games. Either you haven't played them, or your impressions are affected by the same mystery issue that has caused you to dream up a Vegas that is far more than either of the actual games.

[brawndolicious]

The "A.I." is about as dynamic as that room layout allows them to be, on a generally daft, albeit very accurate, level. And of course, Rainbow Six Vegas has its own vast share of scripted encounters, with enemies appearing in the same spots at the same time, every time. Not to mention that it's indeed very possible to get very close to enemies in Vegas. It'd be nice if Vegas was actually up to the standards you have set here, but it really is not. Higher difficulties add increased lethality to the mix, but that's about all that can be said for it.

You really should check out the COD games one of these days, at least if you're going to insist on comparing them to other games. Either you haven't played them, or your impressions are affected by the same mystery issue that has caused you to dream up a Vegas that is far more than either of the actual games.

Scripted encounters=/=scripted AI.  If you're replaying the game, you'll know where the enemies are patrolling in R6.  The difference is that they will try to flush you out the second they find out you're there.  R6 is very easy until the enemy knows that you exist.  The Helghast however just charge at you and have very bad aim.  I'm guessing that the game designer wants them to look more insane than tactical but that also ends up sucking the fun out of shooting them.

CoD seems to have funner AI from what I remember of it.  It had a nice variety of choke points and types of missions.  From saving a prisoner to invading a continent to whatever you had to do to finish Heat.  KZ2 is looking pretty repetitive but hopefully there's a lot of unique missions that they haven't shown yet.

[duckman2000]

Scripted encounters=/=scripted AI.  If you're replaying the game, you'll know where the enemies are patrolling in R6.  The difference is that they will try to flush you out the second they find out you're there.  R6 is very easy until the enemy knows that you exist.  The Helghast however just charge at you and have very bad aim.  I'm guessing that the game designer wants them to look more insane than tactical but that also ends up sucking the fun out of shooting them.

Huh? The Gamersyde videos that I've seen show self-preservation, suppression, repositioning, and such. Not to say that they are without seriously dodgy moments, but it's not even close to as simplistic as you describe it. I guess it's missing an expressed flank maneuver, but then that's not exactly the status quo behavior of terrorists in R6V either, is it now? Of course, you also said that every enemy in R6V was smart and lethal, so hey. And wouldn't "scripted A.I." suggest more instant (triggered) reactions?

CoD seems to have funner AI from what I remember of it.  It had a nice variety of choke points and types of missions.  From saving a prisoner to invading a continent to whatever you had to do to finish Heat.  KZ2 is looking pretty repetitive but hopefully there's a lot of unique missions that they haven't shown yet.

What in the hell does mission design have to do with enemy behavior, let alone the supposed relative smarts of said enemies?

[y2kev]

The Helghast however just charge at you and have very bad aim.

This isn't even true in the first fucking game.

[duckman2000]

The Helghast however just charge at you and have very bad aim.

This isn't even true in the first fucking game.

Seriously. If anything, they were a little too good at keeping their distance. And, apparently, quite fond of reloading without having actually fired any shots.

[brawndolicious]

y2kev, I never played the first KZ and I'm just going off of these videos.

Huh? The Gamersyde videos that I've seen show self-preservation, suppression, repositioning, and such. Not to say that they are without seriously dodgy moments, but it's not even close to as simplistic as you describe it. I guess it's missing an expressed flank maneuver, but then that's not exactly the status quo behavior of terrorists in R6V either, is it now? Of course, you also said that every enemy in R6V was smart and lethal, so hey. And wouldn't "scripted A.I." suggest more instant (triggered) reactions?

yeah, the videos show the guy moving forward and not standing in the open too much.  It's not a very complicated game to play and the enemy hardly presented a challenge so I'm going to have to say that the AI is just bad.  And probably scripted.  In R6V, the enemy would flank you if they could but you usually surround them beforehand.  R6V was fun because you had to use your better weapons and gears to take out all of the enemies before they got into a strong position.  The AI in KZ2 simply doesn't seem to take the upper-ground, try to flank you, etc.  They're I think defending their planet in this game so you would expect them to be entrenched a little.

What in the hell does mission design have to do with enemy behavior, let alone the supposed relative smarts of said enemies?

Well when you have a game with scripted AI like CoD or KZ2, you have to change how the enemies react in different situations.  How they don't hear silencers, take cover when you send a helicopter after them, run from the explosions when you fire at them from a AC130 gunship, etc.  In games with scripted AI, you have to change the scenarios A LOT to make the game interesting.  That's why I'm hoping for some really unique missions to be in the final game (even though I'll probably never play it not having a PS3).