"A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics

[Human Snorenado]

I can't believe health care reform is being killed by the Senate. This is like watching a Redskins game, where they're up by a touchdown and somehow lose by a safety in the final seconds.

fixt lol

AMERICA, FUCK YEAH

BREAK OUT THE BRAWNDO, BITCHES

[The Fake Shemp]

This has seriously dampened my enthusiasm and appreciation for the overall legislative process - and my faith in our country as a whole.

Can we not even agree on legislation when the progressive stuff is taken out? What exists is basically the best case scenario for the health care lobby, and it's still going to get shot down.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I don't really have any enthusiasm for politics right now.  I don't expect anything to really happen these days unless a huge crisis hits and by then, we're all fucked anyway.

I think the whole point of removing the progressive stuff out was just to prolong the inevitable "No" votes that we're seeing now.  Although I expect some hackneyed frankenstein of a bill will surface that will make sure insurance and pharmaceutical companies are flush with cash while seeing marginal improvements for the rest of the population.

[Brehvolution]

They can pass a $626B military budget without batting an eye lash but giving $80B for healthcare reform will break the bank.

[Human Snorenado]

This has seriously dampened my enthusiasm and appreciation for the overall legislative process - and my faith in our country as a whole.

Can we not even agree on legislation when the progressive stuff is taken out? What exists is basically the best case scenario for the health care lobby, and it's still going to get shot down.

Nah, it will get passed after Ben Nelson gets fellated for a week.  Lieberman had his turn last week, now it's Nelson's.  Maybe some sort of provision that forces women to spend at least two weeks barefoot in a kitchen before they can even talk to someone at an abortion clinic will make him happy.

[Phoenix Dark]

http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/msnbcs-ratigan-yells-at-congresswoman-video.php?ref=fpb

I can just imagine tv "journalists" sending videos like this to each other on twitter, patting each other on the back like fuck yea you're so hard

[The Fake Shemp]

Ratigan had the best advice on Twitter this morning, actually:

"Forget reform - buy health insurance stocks, use the profits to subsidize your own government mandated monthly premium."

[The Fake Shemp]

I really like Ratigan. He's an extremely passionate advocate for the average taxpayer, and he makes a lot of good points. The downside is that he gets extremely frustrated and acts relatively immature when guests start towing the company line, and that kind negates his usually valid argument.

But I do feel like he's the only one that routinely calls out people for their bullshit, and that's on both sides of the aisle. I guess moments like this is the price we pay for having one person trying to keep people accountable.

[Van Cruncheon]

what blows my mind are the polls showing that americans have a good 20% more enthusiasm for murdering brownskins in foreign expeditions than in keeping their own asses healthy without going broke. b o g g l e.

[The Fake Shemp]

Because people mistakenly perceive Al Qaeda as a bigger national security threat than the health of our population and the costs associated with it. Osama bin Laden could blow up a building per month, and the physical and financial toll would still be less than what is looming on America's horizon - an entire generation that is obese, asthmatic, autistic, diabetic, etc. and without proper preventative health care.

The Republican talking point should be, "We don't want to pass this debt on to our children, because we have already decided that the nation will collapse before then."

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Because people mistakenly perceive Al Qaeda as a bigger national security threat than the health of our population and the costs associated with it. Osama bin Laden could blow up a building per month, and the physical and financial toll would still be less than what is looming on America's horizon - an entire generation that is obese, asthmatic, autistic, diabetic, etc. and without proper preventative health care.

The Republican talking point should be, "We don't want to pass this debt on to our children, because we have already decided that the nation will collapse before then."

So basically America will turn into GAF.

I better bail out to another country post haste.

[The Fake Shemp]

Statistics show that this generation might be the first generation that does not outlive their parents, because of health care and lifestyle.

There's a lack of proper preventative health care - and that includes nutritionists for those who are battling their weight, routine physicals (that can catch ailments early on, reducing expensive treatments), appropriate diagonistic tests, etc. Obesity is the obviously the largest factor (no pun intended) and that's a problem that we have created as a society, through corn subsidies and socioeconomic conditions that our government is hesitant to change.

We force our poor to work long hours for minimal pay (making sick days punitive usually), leading them to purchase unhealthy foods due to limited time and smaller budgets, they develop serious health problems as a result, but are unable to afford health insurance to diagnose and treat those problems... until they are eventually eligible for Medicare, where they will bankrupt the system with ridiculously high health care costs.

Good job, America.

But - hey! - I hear Afghanistan is developing a pretty decent health care system. Let's move there!

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I got to admit, I am amazed that the country hasn't collapsed yet.  Maybe it is that good ol' fashioned American resolve.  I get the feeling we'll be teetering on the knife's edge for many years.

[The Fake Shemp]

And I won't even go into detail about the even greater millions of Americans that actually have health insurance, but can only use it for reactive care ("I'm sick and dying, time to go to the doctor!") and prescriptions when necessary - because of the high costs and rationing (trying to get your insurance company to honor a claim now requires you to perform feats of strength, such as bending a river).

[The Fake Shemp]

I got to admit, I am amazed that the country hasn't collapsed yet.  Maybe it is that good ol' fashioned American resolve.  I get the feeling we'll be teetering on the knife's edge for many years.

That is probably true. TIME's well-intentioned, but poorly written article about the past decade being "The Decade From Hell" was right about one thing - America has coasted through the past several decades by putting off serious social, financial and ecological problems until some undetermined date to be decided in the future (probably after we start giving corporations naming rights to states, imagine the United States of Pepsi).

It will eventually catch up with us.

I think corporations and lobbyists will eventually realize if we all die, they won't be able to make much money, and then you might see some reform. Until then, they will weigh their corporate interests against the increasing possibility of the country collapsing.

[The Fake Shemp]

Question for Mandark or anyone that has gotten into the nitty gritty of the Senate bill: does the legislation still close the Medicare donut hole?

[The Fake Shemp]

Update from Ratigan's Twitter:

"Will apologize for losing temper. Won't apologize for challenging lies and misinformation. USA needs apology for destructive false solutions."

[Phoenix Dark]

I really like Ratigan. He's an extremely passionate advocate for the average taxpayer, and he makes a lot of good points. The downside is that he gets extremely frustrated and acts relatively immature when guests start towing the company line, and that kind negates his usually valid argument.

But I do feel like he's the only one that routinely calls out people for their bullshit, and that's on both sides of the aisle. I guess moments like this is the price we pay for having one person trying to keep people accountable.

He really seemed off base in this clip. I'm upset there's no public option but as Mandark said, the corporations are still scared. Of course their stocks are rising, they're major health insurance companies. They'd rise even if the gimped public option was in there. Any populist anger needs to be directed at blue dogs and/or republicans, not Schultz who supports a public option

[The Fake Shemp]

What you makes no sense. His point was valid, but he was incredibly immature.

[Phoenix Dark]

From the comments section

Oh please. Please. This is a Congresswoman and a cancer survivor? Come on. She can try to answer questions about WHY the market is so excited about this new health insurance plan.

How about this?

Markets are irrational sometimes. Today, insurers can cover everyone and they choose to exclude millions who, like me, have a preexisting condition. This bill will change that. They choose to exclude millions who cannot afford their premiums. This bill will change that. Is it perfect? Nothing that requires Joe LIEberman's signature is perfect. It's better than what we have today, though, and that is why I support it.

Pretty much. But even that's not written in stone. iirc the senate bill will allow insurance companies to base their care/services in states with weak regulations. The house bill addresses this with a national exchange instead of state based

[Boogie]

I'm almost more proud of that than I am of my own contribution to the newsfeed.

Almost.

You didn't contribute shit to the newsfeed.

Aww, is your butt still sore? 

[Mandark]

Question for Mandark or anyone that has gotten into the nitty gritty of the Senate bill: does the legislation still close the Medicare donut hole?

Yeah.  Link nyah.

It's pretty much set in stone, unlike the public option and some other stuff.  It's been in every version of the bill, it's popular with constituents, and it's a big part of how they got the AARP's support.

[Phoenix Dark]

Anna Bollerman, a retired real estate broker, found herself pleading with doctors for free drug samples and maxing out her credit cards when she wound up in the doughnut hole this year.

“It put me in a position where I was totally embarrassed because I had to beg for medicine,” said Bollerman, 80, of Bayville, N.J. She’s coping with diabetes and a serious degenerative condition that affects her eyes.

A 90-day supply of one of her medications costs $1,496 when she’s in the doughnut hole, said Bollerman. Her monthly income is a little over $1,500.

“All my life I was independent, and this is what I’m left with?” she said. “Whoever thought of this, it wasn’t a very good idea.”

jeez 

And to think we have a political party completely determined to shitcan reform of any kind while the media turns a blind eye

[Oblivion]

Dylan Ratigan's great. I loved how he handled that birther bitch, and the death panels lady.

[The Fake Shemp]

Question for Mandark or anyone that has gotten into the nitty gritty of the Senate bill: does the legislation still close the Medicare donut hole?

Yeah.  Link nyah.

It's pretty much set in stone, unlike the public option and some other stuff.  It's been in every version of the bill, it's popular with constituents, and it's a big part of how they got the AARP's support.

... So here's my question, by closing the donut hole, and not really creating anything to reduce prescription costs, won't that hurt seniors when it comes to affording prescription medication? That is unless they're counting on Obama's deal with Big Pharma to drive down costs... but isn't that also dependent hitting some arbitrary number of newly insured Americans?

[The Fake Shemp]

From the comments section

Oh please. Please. This is a Congresswoman and a cancer survivor? Come on. She can try to answer questions about WHY the market is so excited about this new health insurance plan.

How about this?

Markets are irrational sometimes. Today, insurers can cover everyone and they choose to exclude millions who, like me, have a preexisting condition. This bill will change that. They choose to exclude millions who cannot afford their premiums. This bill will change that. Is it perfect? Nothing that requires Joe LIEberman's signature is perfect. It's better than what we have today, though, and that is why I support it.

Pretty much. But even that's not written in stone. iirc the senate bill will allow insurance companies to base their care/services in states with weak regulations. The house bill addresses this with a national exchange instead of state based

Uh, what? The market is not being irrational and raising stock prices for health insurance carriers just for hell of it, stocks are going up because the insurance companies are getting a break - not reform.

Ratigan's point is not only valid, but I agree with his complaint that Schultz is just trying to sell the American public a bill of goods. The line that the bill is going to change the culture of insurance companies is laughable, and it's not grounded in reality - as evident by the fact that the stocks are surging for all major health care providers.

In the end, the government has just given them more customers.

[Human Snorenado]

Ratigan is good because he just started treating journalism seriously; it's like a kid who all their life just wanted a mustang and finally is able to afford one as an adult- they treat it religiously or something because they've built up a mystique around it.  I'm pretty sure that before he got the hour after Morning Joe he was just a CNBC type yacking head analyst sort.  Give him time- once people figure out that he doesn't play by the rules they'll quit coming on his show and he'll have to start kissing ass to maintain access just like the rest of the media.

As for Willco and t-exp's convo re: the death of the American Empire via stupidity, I only have this to say: 



IT'S GOT ELECTROLYTES, BITCHES

[The Fake Shemp]

Ratigan was temperamental at CNBC, which is why he left (or got the boot, according to some).

This type of behavior has been typical on the Morning Meeting for awhile now. He does this to anyone that tries to bullshit him on-air, but the HuffPost crowd is crying foul because he turned on one of their own today. Nobody got upset when he reacted in kind with Orly Taitz or Betsy McCaughey.

Where was the outrage then?

Should I really care that Schultz is a proponent of a solution that is no longer viable in the Senate, when she is still continuing to support this laughable attempt at reform with a totally outrageous justification? I mean, I think if she had said, "It kind of sucks, but I think it does put some protections in there that will make Americans better off than they were without it," then I doubt Ratigan wouldn't have reacted so angrily.

It's evident by his history on the Morning Meeting that his number one pet peeve is when people regurgitate talking points, so why would you try to do it? He cuts everyone off all the time when they do that.

... So yeah, I disagree with his tone and his attitude in regards to his conversation with Schultz, but I understand his intentions and I support him when he tries to sort through all the political bullshit. We need more of this, not less.

[Dickie Dee]

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CommentsA new poll suggests that voters are not pleased by the idea of health insurance mandates without a public option or a Medicare expansion.

Conducted by Research 2000 for the Progressive Change Campaign Committee (PCCC) and Democracy for America (DFA), the survey finds only 33 percent of likely voters favor a health care bill that does not include a public health insurance option and does not expand Medicare, but does require all Americans to get health insurance. Slightly more Democrats -- 37 percent -- favor the idea, while only 30 percent of Republicans and 31 percent of independents do.

Meanwhile, if the public option and Medicare buy-in are added, 58 percent of people support the idea. The number of Republican supporters drops to 22 percent, but independent support rises to 57 percent and Democratic support to a whopping 88 percent.

"This poll shows voters in full-blown revolt against the Senate bill," said PCCC co-founder Stephanie Taylor. "Only one-third of voters support mandates without a public option, while nearly two-thirds want the public option and Medicare expansion. This will be a disaster of epic proportions for Democrats in 2010 if it's not fixed -- fast."

Good jon Senate. Why they think that making the bill shittier and shittier is somehow a political winner is beyond me.

[The Fake Shemp]

Has there ever been such brazen and flagrant contempt for the representing one's constituents? "How dare these voters not hold the corporate interests of the health care lobby ahead of their own! We'll show them!"

[The Fake Shemp]

So, what I think you're saying is, that by the time we finish rebuilding Afghanistan... it'll be time to move there?

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Has there ever been such brazen and flagrant contempt for the representing one's constituents? "How dare these voters not hold the corporate interests of the health care lobby ahead of their own! We'll show them!"

'Cuz corporations are much better at lobbying than the voters.  Most people will get pissed if a public option isn't in there but when it comes time for the bedshitters like Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman to be re-elected, the public will have already forgotten and thinks shit like whether they lit up a joint 30 years ago or whether they went to a school that promoted "liberal values" is important.

Lieberman and Nelson are just attention whores making sure they get their time in the limelight.  Lieberman should be a lot smarter, he's pretty much salting the earth as much as he can, like he has some kind of back up plan if he gets shitcanned, that or he arrogantly assumes that he won't get his ass kicked in 2012.

[The Fake Shemp]

What I don't get is, are there not enough votes to attempt reconciliation?

I know nothing about parliamentary rules, but I always heard that would be a way around the filibuster. But the word itself is almost taboo, and politicians speak of it as if it some kind of nuclear option - and not metaphorically either. Like as if they would literally be detonating some kind of nuclear weapon in the Capitol building.

[Dickie Dee]

Has there ever been such brazen and flagrant contempt for the representing one's constituents? "How dare these voters not hold the corporate interests of the health care lobby ahead of their own! We'll show them!"

From Olympia Snowe, on the idea of allowing 55-64 year-olds to buy into Medicare:

             I can’t see it. I am talking to a lot of my providers this afternoon and I know they are mighty unhappy.

Maybe she should try talking to some of her constituents instead?

[The Fake Shemp]

I'm also against the Medicare buy-in, simply because it was poorly constructed by the Democrats and a cheap political ploy to make a pretty bad bill look good to senior citizens, without really helping them.

[Dickie Dee]

Has there ever been such brazen and flagrant contempt for the representing one's constituents? "How dare these voters not hold the corporate interests of the health care lobby ahead of their own! We'll show them!"

'Cuz corporations are much better at lobbying than the voters.  Most people will get pissed if a public option isn't in there but when it comes time for the bedshitters like Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman to be re-elected, the public will have already forgotten and thinks shit like whether they lit up a joint 30 years ago or whether they went to a school that promoted "liberal values" is important.

Except they'll still be mandated by the gov't to buy shitty plans, it'll still be very much on their radar.

[Human Snorenado]

Here's the problem with reconciliation as I understand it.

First of all, it's called BUDGET reconciliation.  This is important, because the rule states that only stuff pertaining to the federal budget can be passed under reconciliation.  You say, ok but who gets to decide that?  Some dude named the Senate Parliamentarian.  He's not an elected official... in fact, I'm not sure he's even an appointed official.  Odds are he's somebody's nephew. 

So, anyway, anything the Parliamentarian decides isn't germane to the budget will get taken out of the bill.  So the problem with trying to pass something as mind-numbingly complex as a comprehensive health care reform bill through reconciliation is that you're likely to end up with 75% of what you tried to pass, and the missing pieces will probably have been important parts of the overall puzzle.  Like, imagine they pass a reform bill through reconciliation that can't outlaw recissions or discriminating due to pre-existing conditions. 

Basically, America is too stupid to be governed.

[The Fake Shemp]

I don't think it would be difficult to link health care reform, especially with changes to Medicare, to the budget.

[Phoenix Dark]

Too much is lost through reconciliation. They'll get a gimped public option and lose the insurance reform stuff like pre-existing conditions. Not worth it, unless they were to pass the bill in December and submit a public option afterwards, but I don't know if that's possible

Nuking the filibuster would have been the only way to get a public option/medicare buy-in. But too many senators like having filibuster power (on both sides) to support it, whether it's concerning coal or health care

[The Fake Shemp]

How much more can they lose? The public option is dead. The consumer protection stuff is limited, and great in theory, but let's see it in practice. My guess is even with everyone mandated to buy insurance, we'll see absolutely no cost savings.

Like I said, I see this bill as a gift to the health care lobby at this point. The American public got shafted.

[Phoenix Dark]

How much more? Just about everything relating to health insurance, which wouldn't be eligible for reconciliation. I'm not convinced a gimped public option would do much of anything.



Costs go down, perscription drug costs go down (slightly). I think everyone can agree those are good things.

[Oblivion]

Eh, I think wouldn't mind giving up the regulations and reforms if it meant having a strong public option open to everyone.

[brawndolicious]

That's sort of putting all your eggs in one basket tho.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

We should just cut the bullshit and give the insurance industries a fat bailout and don't include anything about lowering the premiums or improving coverage either.  That way we can avoid the pretense of populist reform and skip a few steps to what everyone was expecting anyway.

[Oblivion]

Possibly really stupid question:

If I'm getting this right, we need 60 votes to break a filibuster just to continue DEBATE. There's still one more instance of voting to go when it goes to conference or whatever, right? And at that point in time, it only needs 51 votes to pass, right? If that's the case, can't the dems/Obama administration just give in to Lieberman's/Nelson's/etc. demands now, and then tell them to fuck off, and put those concessions back in the final bill?

[The Fake Shemp]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOoooooh.

Gauntlet has been thrown! E-fight! E-fight!

[Van Cruncheon]

boogie's butt gets reddened: canada picks up the check. cost: $0.

green shinobi's butt gets reddened: $2500 for the ER visit, $500 for the doctor requested anal probe; $3000 for the overnight stay; $550 for the butt pain medication; $750 in miscellaneous consultations; Blue Cross denies him since Butthurt Type B is a pre-existing condition. cost: $7300.

[Robo]

 

[The Fake Shemp]

boogie's butt gets reddened: canada picks up the check. cost: $0.

green shinobi's butt gets reddened: $2500 for the ER visit, $500 for the doctor requested anal probe; $3000 for the overnight stay; $550 for the butt pain medication; $750 in miscellaneous consultations; Blue Cross denies him since Butthurt Type B is a pre-existing condition. cost: $7300.

[Human Snorenado]

Looks like Nelson has been sufficiently fellated and he's now pledging to be the 60th vote.

[Phoenix Dark]

Still...fuck Nelson

[Human Snorenado]

One cool thing about the bill is that it is apparently gonna hit John Boehner where it hurts- it now features a 10% tax on indoor tanning.

[Phoenix Dark]

The soon-to-be amended Senate health care bill will cost $871 billion over 10 years according to a new, long-awaited report by the Congressional Budget Office.

That's about $22 billion more than the bill was originally expected to cost, before the new changes--including nixing the public option--were offered to the bill. Democrats replaced the public option with a new plan to allow national or multi-state, non-profit insurance plans, regulated by the federal government, to sell insurance on state exchanges.

The CBO has concluded that, on average, premiums will be the same as they would have been if the Senate had the public option, but that the public option saved the federal government more money by putting downward pressure on the premiums of low-cost private plans, which will be heavily subsidized.

The bill remains a big deficit slayer--$132 billion in the first 10 years. Over the next 10 years, CBO warns all estimates are very uncertain. But here's a key conclusion: "CBO expects that the legislation, if enacted, would reduce federal budget deficits over the ensuing decade relative to those projected under current law--with a total effect during that decade that is in a broad range around one-half percent of GDP."

Senior Democratic aides are suggesting that the bill could reduce the deficit, compared to deficits projected under current law, by as much as $1.3 trillion.

You can read the report here (PDF), and a summary on the CBO's blog here.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/cbo-health-care-bill-now-871-billion-public-option-compromise-does-not-lower-premiums.php?ref=fpa

[Oblivion]

Possibly really stupid question:

If I'm getting this right, we need 60 votes to break a filibuster just to continue DEBATE. There's still one more instance of voting to go when it goes to conference or whatever, right? And at that point in time, it only needs 51 votes to pass, right? If that's the case, can't the dems/Obama administration just give in to Lieberman's/Nelson's/etc. demands now, and then tell them to fuck off, and put those concessions back in the final bill?

Anyone?

[Phoenix Dark]

60 votes for cloture, which will happen tomorrow. After that it's conferenced with the house bill, creating the final bill. It'll take another 60 votes for the final version to pass the senate, so they won't be able to just add a public option and call it a day.

[Oblivion]

60 votes for cloture, which will happen tomorrow. After that it's conferenced with the house bill, creating the final bill. It'll take another 60 votes for the final version to pass the senate, so they won't be able to just add a public option and call it a day.

Okay, so you DO need 60 votes for the final bill. That's all I was wondering.

[Phoenix Dark]

This is assuming the bill will get fillibustered yea, and the GOP is doing everything they can to stop the bill.

The funny/distinguished mentally-challenged thing is that just 1-2 republicans could have made a pretty big impact on the bill, demanding certain things in the bill in exchange for supporting cloture. So if Hatch and the rest of them truly gave a shit about say malpractice reform they could have rolled up their sleeves and did some work on the bill. They couldn't care less.

According to the CBO the bill saves a ton of money, it doesn't have a public option, it doesn't expand medicare, and actually cuts money from medicare - you'd think republicans would love it. This is all about opposing Obama at every chance

[Brehvolution]

This is all about opposing Obama at every chance

All because they know that it would be used against them politically in every election. It's a potential voter boon for the democrats. Newly insured Americans won't think too highly of republicans for actively trying to deny them a healthier life. And rightfully so.

[Mandark]

Sarah Palin tweets:

"Copenhgen=arrogance of man2think we can change nature's ways.MUST b good stewards of God's earth,but arrogant&naive2say man overpwers nature"

"Earth saw clmate chnge4 ions;will cont 2 c chnges.R duty2responsbly devlop resorces4humankind/not pollute&destroy;but cant alter naturl chng"



Really, what needs to be said?

[The Fake Shemp]

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

That's up there with "change ur tweet arlen!" in terms of great political tweets.