Author Topic: FitnessBore - 2018 edition  (Read 969879 times)

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2940 on: August 07, 2011, 10:49:25 PM »
I felt like complete shit today. Lethargic, fat, and sick to my stomach. Just got back from a four mile run and I feel good once again.

:bow exercise :bow2
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Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2941 on: August 07, 2011, 10:52:03 PM »
don't worry, your knee will soon be reminding you of your impending mortality
vjj

Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2942 on: August 07, 2011, 11:10:53 PM »
don't worry, your knee will soon be reminding you of your impending mortality

Shush, you!

I've been doing IT band stretches the last month, feels much better.
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Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2943 on: August 07, 2011, 11:21:40 PM »
you're probably stretching new cartilage into existence right now!
vjj

Oblivion

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2944 on: August 08, 2011, 12:30:15 AM »
Can I get some good suggestions for high calorie foods for building mass?

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2945 on: August 08, 2011, 03:11:17 AM »
Just keep your current diet and add some protein shakes.  It should be pretty easy for your stomach. 

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2946 on: August 08, 2011, 03:18:39 AM »
kinda depends what his current diet is!
vjj

Mupepe

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2947 on: August 08, 2011, 10:23:59 AM »
All in all, I need something to move to keep me motivated because I've been lethargic the last week or two because I haven't seen results. 

Try driving up the intensity of your workouts while eating the same amount of food.  Cut down on rest time to 60 secs then 45 and eventually 30.  Also try doing explosive lifts like snatches and cleans, which are extremely draining.  Next time, you deadlift or squat, try doing it with 30 to 50 % weight but jump as high as you can at the top of the lift.  Finally, do 30 mins of moderately high intensity cardio at the end of each workout.  I guarantee your fat will start burning again if you take your workouts to another level. 
Sorry I missed this Smooth.  I'm sure it would.  That's what I've done in the past to get through plateaus but lethargy sets in shortly afterwards (I already do the HIIT afterwards BTW).  I'm just looking for a change for a bit.  A rest from fat loss.  I've been in a calorie deficit for too long and I can feel it.  I'd rather feel good and lose fat slowly than kicking it back into high gear and feeling apathetic about my routine.  I like to ENJOY working out. 

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2948 on: August 08, 2011, 10:27:50 AM »
Just stop counting calories and the energy should come flooding back. Unless you are eating too much of the wrong food or something.
vjj

Groogrux

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2949 on: August 08, 2011, 10:34:06 AM »
Fixed up some bacon and eggs this morning for myself and the rest of the family at the compound.  It was delicious.  I bought the bacon from a local company that only makes pork and some beef products.  We're still working on stocking more hens in the chicken coup so farm-fresh eggs are limited right now.

In other news, (don't click if you're squeamishness about bodily type things)
spoiler (click to show/hide)
I got a hemmorhoid two days ago and I'm not been able to do much of anything related to movement until it goes away.   :-\
[close]
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demi

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2950 on: August 08, 2011, 10:34:48 AM »
Andrew, are we going to get some before and after pics?
fat

Groogrux

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2951 on: August 08, 2011, 10:43:40 AM »
If you're talking about the weight-loss, then there isn't much to see right now.  Give me a couple of months to really put some hard work into it and I'd be happy to upload a few.

If you're talking about the thing I just mentioned, you disgust me sir.   :lol
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demi

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2952 on: August 08, 2011, 10:55:00 AM »
Sort of. I just want to see more of you.
fat

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2953 on: August 08, 2011, 03:27:47 PM »
All in all, I need something to move to keep me motivated because I've been lethargic the last week or two because I haven't seen results. 

Try driving up the intensity of your workouts while eating the same amount of food.  Cut down on rest time to 60 secs then 45 and eventually 30.  Also try doing explosive lifts like snatches and cleans, which are extremely draining.  Next time, you deadlift or squat, try doing it with 30 to 50 % weight but jump as high as you can at the top of the lift.  Finally, do 30 mins of moderately high intensity cardio at the end of each workout.  I guarantee your fat will start burning again if you take your workouts to another level. 
Sorry I missed this Smooth.  I'm sure it would.  That's what I've done in the past to get through plateaus but lethargy sets in shortly afterwards (I already do the HIIT afterwards BTW).  I'm just looking for a change for a bit.  A rest from fat loss.  I've been in a calorie deficit for too long and I can feel it.  I'd rather feel good and lose fat slowly than kicking it back into high gear and feeling apathetic about my routine.  I like to ENJOY working out. 

That's why I suggest moderate cardio instead of HIIT.  That way you can still burn some fat while not draining yourself too much.  HIIT after a session of heavy weights is probably too much if you want to get stronger as well.   

Just stop counting calories and the energy should come flooding back. Unless you are eating too much of the wrong food or something.

Yeah, this approach is better than just downing a bunch of extra calories to bulk.  Unless you have the type of body that can easily cut back down to 10%, you're just gonna hate yourself for gaining a bunch of fat.

Mupepe

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2954 on: August 08, 2011, 04:01:51 PM »
We've gone over this before.  For some people, despite what you guys might believe, it really is difficult to gauge "consuming enough" for some people.  Even if I'm eating good foods, I can easily eat way over maintenance and gain fat.  It comes from years of conditioning in overeating and eating like shit.  Closing the calorie deficit of 500 isn't going to make me explode with fat so I don't think it's anything I'll hate myself for.  Counting calories is the best way to keep myself in check.  I've tried a clean paleo without counting calories.  And that mixed with heavy lifting leads me to overeating in massive amounts.

cool breeze

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2955 on: August 08, 2011, 04:13:51 PM »
try fasting for a day or something

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2956 on: August 08, 2011, 04:33:07 PM »
Try working out in the morning on an empty stomach if you're afraid of overeating.  That way you can adjust your workouts according to how much you ate the day before.

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2957 on: August 08, 2011, 08:53:20 PM »
It seems to me like it is more important that you get your body fat down and your metabolism normalized rather than start going for the world bench press record or whatever. If you are convinced that you can't eat the right amount without counting, then count but just eat to ensure zero deficit on a weekly average basis.

For exercise, you might just be hitting a plateau because you are doing the same things over and over. Shore up your weaknesses rather than building on your strengths. List up 20 or so solid exercises and choose 5 of the ones you rarely do or are bad at to work on for a while. Abandon your current routine totally and come back to it in a few weeks. Routines are terrible things and it sounds like you've been in the same one for a while.
vjj

Groogrux

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2958 on: August 08, 2011, 10:59:09 PM »
Okay, so when I am finally able to get back to the gym I need some change for my routine.

I mostly stick the the same compound exercises that Mark Sisson preaches in PB.  I do benches, shoulder presses, lat pulls, squats, and planks almost every session.  I've not been too burned out on it as it's a full-body workout.  However, I am noticing that I'm looking better in my upper body (chest, shoulders, arms, back, neck), but my core and lower body don't seem to be getting too much change.

Is it a thing of needing change or giving it time?  Are there more lower body exercises that I should be doing?  Should I take away from any of the upper body stuff?
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Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2959 on: August 08, 2011, 11:15:42 PM »
deadlifts and swings dude, deadlifts and swings
vjj

Groogrux

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2960 on: August 08, 2011, 11:19:31 PM »
I give deadlifts another shot now that I've got the proper stuff to do it with.  This new gym's hours may suck, but they make up for it in equipment.  I got to do a proper low-bar squat the other day instead of doing two dumbells.  Felt amazing.  Where can I get more info on swings?
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Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2961 on: August 08, 2011, 11:31:03 PM »
There are a lot of variations in technique (between the 2 major KB styles, as well as within them...) but this is a pretty in-depth tutorial. I'm thinking I may have to do one of my own one of these days, if I can get a buddy to film it.

[youtube=560,345]FaRsB10Xs3A[/youtube]
vjj

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2962 on: August 09, 2011, 02:51:34 AM »
Okay, so when I am finally able to get back to the gym I need some change for my routine.

I mostly stick the the same compound exercises that Mark Sisson preaches in PB.  I do benches, shoulder presses, lat pulls, squats, and planks almost every session.  I've not been too burned out on it as it's a full-body workout.  However, I am noticing that I'm looking better in my upper body (chest, shoulders, arms, back, neck), but my core and lower body don't seem to be getting too much change.

Is it a thing of needing change or giving it time?  Are there more lower body exercises that I should be doing?  Should I take away from any of the upper body stuff?

You can keep with the dumbell squats but jump as high as you can when you come up.  Pick a weight that will let you jump at least 10 inches. 

I found the deadlift to be one of the best fat burning exercises.  You may want to deadlift twice a week for better results.  3x5 each time would be a good start. 

If you're having problems with the form, on the downward movement, just let the bar go a little below your knees instead of dropping it at the way to the group.  Just make sure to keep your upper back tight.   

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2963 on: August 09, 2011, 02:57:04 AM »
deadlifts and swings dude, deadlifts and swings

I was doing the hang snatch with a barbell before I jammed and maybe partially dislocated my left shoulder during basketball.  I like the hang snatch even more because it seems to work even more muscles and require more explosion.  Also, if I get a KB that's just right for 5-8 reps on the swings, it'd probably be way too heavy for any of my other KB lifts. 

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2964 on: August 09, 2011, 03:05:42 AM »
Deadlifts are a fat-burning exercise now? Really? I think they're amazing and indispensable to any fitness regime but just how many calories do you think you are burning in those 2 seconds Smooth?

KB swings are a high rep exercise. The goal is to keep working for minutes at a time without rest. No-one does only 5-8 swings.
vjj

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2965 on: August 09, 2011, 03:37:13 AM »
Isn't the deadlift one of the most CNS exercises?  As such, the deadlift should also raise basal metabolic rate quite a bit.  Even if you don't burn that much during the exercise, you'll burn quite a bit more the rest of the day.  In my personal experience, I always lose quite a bit of weight on weeks when I deadlift heavy. 

KB swings are a high rep exercise. The goal is to keep working for minutes at a time without rest. No-one does only 5-8 swings.

But there's no reason why it can'be a low rep exercise, right?  Although I sometimes go high reps when I've hit a plateau, I never do any lifts for more than 12 reps, unless I'm working the tibialis anterior or calves. 

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2966 on: August 09, 2011, 03:40:50 AM »
Cormac, what do you think of front box-squats?  My shoulder is so screwed right now that I can't do a back squat without significant pain.  The front squat is all I can do for now but it places too much emphasis on the quads.  In order to balance things out, I've been doing front box-squats but I don't know how effective that is. 

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2967 on: August 09, 2011, 04:34:29 AM »
Isn't the deadlift one of the most CNS exercises?  As such, the deadlift should also raise basal metabolic rate quite a bit.  Even if you don't burn that much during the exercise, you'll burn quite a bit more the rest of the day.  In my personal experience, I always lose quite a bit of weight on weeks when I deadlift heavy. 

KB swings are a high rep exercise. The goal is to keep working for minutes at a time without rest. No-one does only 5-8 swings.

But there's no reason why it can'be a low rep exercise, right?  Although I sometimes go high reps when I've hit a plateau, I never do any lifts for more than 12 reps, unless I'm working the tibialis anterior or calves. 

Deadlifts promote muscle building, provided you feed yourself sufficiently make that muscle. If you attempt to treat it as a weight loss exercise, you'll just be breaking down the muscle and not repairing it. You won't go very far down this road before you see the inanity of it. If you think you lost weight, fine...observational data with a bazillion other factors involved that you're not telling us about.

The data on the whole 'higher resting metabolism after working out' thing is solid but it points to a fairly minuscule effect. A few more calories burned per hour, which doesn't add up to a whole lot of fat loss. Of course what typically happens is people go home after working out and sit on the sofa longer than they normally would have, and reward themselves with a bag of chips so it cancels out anyway. I know you like to believe in this of course so don't let me burst your bubble! When it gets you to your 6 pack, do let us know!

(anyway, stop thinking about exercising your way to being lean. It helps but it's nothing compared to what diet can do as we've been over ad nauseum. For most people, anything they can by exercising they undo by eating too much of the wrong stuff...a tendency you certainly seem no more immune than anyone else to)

Yeah, KBs can be a low rep exercise, just like deadlifts can be a high rep exercise. IF YOU LIVE IN STUPID LAND. Ok, that's harsh. But think about why we designed these pieces of equipment. Think of how large a kettlebell would need to be for you to use it to build muscle for low reps. Think of how little weight there would have to be on a barbell for you to deadlift it non-stop for 5 minutes. Everyone who has thought about either of those approaches has deemed it counterproductive...if you can come up with a good reason I'd like to hear it. Kettlebells are for conditioning and stabilization/balance work with some strength thrown in, deadlifts are for strength only.

Front box-squats? Why not. They load up the quads rather than the glutes but in the short-term (i.e. while your shoulder recovers) there is probably no harm in that. Box squats should only be part of your squatting routine of course, not the whole thing. Go look at Louie Simmons' Westside barbell for programming tips there.
vjj

Groogrux

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2968 on: August 09, 2011, 04:56:43 AM »
You can keep with the dumbell squats but jump as high as you can when you come up.  Pick a weight that will let you jump at least 10 inches. 

 :rofl :rofl :rofl  Shhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttt  I'm fat mayne.
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Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2969 on: August 09, 2011, 05:40:23 AM »
You can keep with the dumbell squats but jump as high as you can when you come up.  Pick a weight that will let you jump at least 10 inches. 

 :rofl :rofl :rofl  Shhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttt  I'm fat mayne.

Good to see you laugh, Andy!

Try DB thrusters maybe - they have the same explosiveness requirement and destroy me completely. Just do the squat, and push the DBs up as you rise until they are locked out overhead. Try not to hit your head!
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2970 on: August 10, 2011, 09:04:56 PM »
As if by magic, Mark Sisson's big post this week addresses the very issue of impact of adding muscle on resting metabolism that I tackled Smooth on above. This is consistent with what the smart people I read have been saying also. There is a measurable effect at the level of lab data, but nothing that you are going to notice in the real world. Money quote:

'No, but seriously: the idea that muscle significantly boosts resting metabolic rate is pretty much nonsense. Now, don’t get me wrong. I like muscle. Love it, even. Nothing I like more than a bit of lean mass, but I don’t like how this notion of “muscle burning fat at rest” has taken hold in the collective psyche. It leads to lofty expectations that come thundering down to shatter to pieces. It gets people on a single, obsessive fitness track where all they want to do is lift, lift, and lift (and eat, eat, eat) some more to the exclusion of other, perhaps more enjoyable pursuits. And, it can even negatively impact one’s health or progress toward desired body composition, either via overtraining the heavy lifting and undertraining the other stuff, like sprints, walks, hikes, and simple play.'

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-many-calories-does-muscle-really-burn-and-why-its-not-about-calories-anyway/#more-22548

Well worth reading the whole thing, as usual.
vjj

lennedsay

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2971 on: August 10, 2011, 09:50:48 PM »
My crazy witch doctor lady was telling me and my husband about foods and portions she would like us to eat. She basically described paleo, and I asked her about the similarities, and she said that's exactly what she recommends for weight loss. Then she gave me drops to put under my tongue and did applied kinesiology muscle testing using my arm while touching my face. And checked my nail beds for my chi. I think she weighs the same as a duck.

Since I've been back to work, my diet has sucked. Not necessarily fast food, but going out to lunch pretty much daily followed by feeling like total shit the rest of the day. My husband works close to my new job, so we meet for lunch now. I was doing so well when I was unemployed... :(  Still doing pilates though, and we used the circle last night in our whole workout, which completely kicked my ass.
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Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2972 on: August 11, 2011, 12:21:00 AM »
hmm - i like the stuff on Mark's site but he does seem to contradict himself every so often. The 50 calories a day is bullsh1t and for the reasons he states (there's never anything concrete behind it, but they are doctors right?) then he immediately then accepts the figures of 6 and 2 with open arms with the same lack of anything concrete behind it (there's nothing concrete behind it, but he's a doctor!)

i guess it's "but he's the RIGHT kind of doctor" and whilst i agree with what he's saying it does seem a bit selective. Funnily, the only thing that is agreed is that muscle mass DOES burn more calories at rest - all they are arguing about now is by what factor. Ultimately though, the article is good and it's pretty much where i'm headed state of mind wise. I'm still 80/20 paleo but i'm no longer worried or eating shit food, exercise happens when it happens, and everything is going swimmingly (though can and will get better as i get into more and more fun stuff) and i'm at the point where i'm not looking at the scales religiously.


The 50 cals a day thing is attributed to bro bodybuilders in general rather than a doctor (he does mention a 'Dr Oz' but I have no idea who that is). It is quite frustrating that the only thing you take away from that article is 'Funnily, the only thing that is agreed is that muscle mass DOES burn more calories at rest - all they are arguing about now is by what factor' - I said and Sisson said right up front that all the data supports SOME increase in metabolic rate. Hell, I said that in my original response to Smooth Groove. The entire crux of the discussion here is by what factor it increases, not to debate whether it increases or not. And the conclusion is that it is insignificant!

You can go look at the studies yourself, DC. Nothing shows any increase that is going to make any real change. I found one the other day that listed an increase in the basal metabolic rate of the CONTROL GROUP by 31 kcals. Yes, over the study period, people who changed NOTHING about their diet or exercise still saw an increase in metabolic rate. No-one could explain it! So an increase of 50-100 is just random statistical noise basically. It's not going to make any difference whatsoever to your real-world body comp unless it's upwards of 400 or so IMHO. And even then, homeostasis is going to start working on it very quickly. The body will very quickly adapt to whatever new ratio of lean mass: fat you develop and start hoarding calories etc in response to ensure you don't actually change all that much. So by all means, build muscle but not because it will turn you into some sofa-lounging junk food calorie furnace. Pure fantasy.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 12:31:55 AM by Cormacaroni »
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2973 on: August 11, 2011, 12:30:26 AM »
btw there is nothing in the least controversial about how many kcals the average gram of muscle or fat burns every day - this is very easy to measure in the lab and he's not taking it on faith.

See chart here, for example
http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/news/cals.htm

The key takeaway from that should be just how few kcals muscle actually burns at all. Which makes total sense - they are there to help us move and useless when not doing so. If they are burning kcals that the brain and major organs need when NOT moving, they are not doing their job right. Ironically, you use a lot more energy by THINKING when on the sofa than by having huge quads just sitting there doing nothing.
vjj

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2974 on: August 11, 2011, 12:37:52 AM »
That's not even what I was saying.  I'm well aware that extra muscle mass doesn't burn much more calories.  What I was trying to say is that the deadlift seems to have high CNS stimulation effect which leads to a higher BMR.  

Although diet eventually plays a bigger part in bodyfat %, exercising, especially at higher intensities, generally seems to have quicker effect.  I've seen guys at the gym lose 30lbs in 2 months just by playing basketball regularly.  OTOH, people who change their diets in a healthy manner (no drastic drop in caloric intake) rarely get the same improvement in such a short period.  People are more likely to stick with physical activities that they enjoy while gradually cutting down on bad foods than just cutting off all bad foods immediately.  

Keep in mind also that most of the people who keep preaching diet is more important than exercise in having a great body, already have great bodies.  Of course, there's not much need to focus on exercise if you don't have extra 50 lbs of fat or more to burn.  

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2975 on: August 11, 2011, 12:41:47 AM »
So by all means, build muscle but not because it will turn you into some sofa-lounging junk food calorie furnace. Pure fantasy.

Genetic plays a big part too.  The guy with the best body in the gym (looks like a NFL superstar) swears that he eats mostly junk food 'cause he's a truck driver.  My mother eats mostly carbs everyday and still has a ridiculously low bodyfat in her 50s. 


On a different note, how's the form for the KB swing in this link?  A friend send it to me after I recommend that he buys some KBs.  He got a 15lb and claims that's already enough to make him sore.  What a weakling!

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/training-day/201108/lose-fat-2-exercises
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 12:44:52 AM by Smooth Groove »

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2976 on: August 11, 2011, 12:46:42 AM »
ok, prove it!

There is no doubt that the deadlift and the squat have a very potent CNS effect, but that's not WHY we do them. If it were possible, we would want to avoid any CNS fatigue whatsoever when we train. The reason I lift heavy is because of the hormonal effects - higher testosterone production, increased insulin sensitivity blah blah blah. Not to jack up my CNS. If I wanted to do that, I'd just drink coffee and do amphetamines all day.
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2977 on: August 11, 2011, 12:52:29 AM »
So by all means, build muscle but not because it will turn you into some sofa-lounging junk food calorie furnace. Pure fantasy.

Genetic plays a big part too.  The guy with the best body in the gym (looks like a NFL superstar) swears that he eats mostly junk food 'cause he's a truck driver.  My mother eats mostly carbs everyday and still has a ridiculously low bodyfat in her 50s. 


On a different note, how's the form for the KB swing in this link?  A friend send it to me after I recommend that he buys some KBs.  He got a 15lb and claims that's already enough to make him sore.  What a weakling!

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/training-day/201108/lose-fat-2-exercises

Yeah, you keep talking about all these amazing people, and I keep saying that does no good whatsoever for the rest of us schmucks. So I ignore 'em and do what I can for myself and those around me. I have years of evidence that eating junk food and laying around doesn't produce amazingly low body fat for me in my TWENTIES never mind my 50's so I will have to just forge my own path I'm afraid. From what I read, I expect the same is true for pretty much every last person who posts here.

The form in that vid looks pretty solid but I already posted one to illustrate form - why not just look at that?
vjj

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2978 on: August 11, 2011, 01:04:00 AM »
Well, my main point wasn't that some people don't need to eat right but rather that exercise is the quicker path to change in body composition. 

ok, prove it!

There is no doubt that the deadlift and the squat have a very potent CNS effect, but that's not WHY we do them. If it were possible, we would want to avoid any CNS fatigue whatsoever when we train. The reason I lift heavy is because of the hormonal effects - higher testosterone production, increased insulin sensitivity blah blah blah. Not to jack up my CNS. If I wanted to do that, I'd just drink coffee and do amphetamines all day.

Well, most CNS stimulants, like ADHD medications tend to lead to weight loss, although it's not clear whether it's due to reduced appetite or change in metabolism or nutrients absorption.  Generally, the medical community hasn't been very interested in doing the type of studies that we're talking about.  Most older physicians still believe that 30 to 60 min cardio several times per week is the best type of exercise. 

Maybe we can do our own experiment?  Like:  Week 1-no exercise.  Week 2-same calories but lift heavy. 

Also, CNS fatigue is overrated.  I doubt most people work themselves hard enough to experience CNS fatigue. 

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2979 on: August 11, 2011, 01:09:50 AM »
The form in that vid looks pretty solid but I already posted one to illustrate form - why not just look at that?

I haven't even bought any KBs yet.  What do you think of the adjustable ones? 

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2980 on: August 11, 2011, 01:47:13 AM »
Exercise may be quicker in the short run but those newbie gains don't last very long. You end up having to do the same amount of exercise just to keep from getting fat again. And who wants only short-term fat loss? At the cost of hours out of your life, and typically miserable hours at that?

And again, there is genetic variance. Some people respond quickly to exercise. Others don't! Ask Prole how long he has been on that treadmill trying to lose the last 5-10lbs for example. And of course, your example is self-selecting. The people in the gym (and are happy to talk about their success!) are of course the ones who have had the most success with exercise. To meet people who have had success with diet but not exercise, you probably need to go to weightwatchers etc. instead. Anyway. I don't need convincing that diet is 80% at least of the equation for everybody. You'll get to this realization in the end, after another few years trying to get a 6 pack or whatever by whatever new scheme Mens Health has this month.

Adjustable kettlebells are very dangerous, steer clear. Pro-grade IKFF KBs are the best ones I've used by far, for various reasons. About the same price as well. These are what I got, as recommended by my instructor:

http://www.ikff.net/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=4&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6

I just got 2 of the 16kg ones, very nice indeed. Will post a pic in a minute.

Btw, do not pour scorn on those who use lighter KBs until you've tried them. As you should know, it is quite possible to destroy yourself with bodyweight alone with the right exercises and the right number of reps. KBs are designed for long-form competitions, typically 5 or 10 minutes of continuous work, with the only rest coming in the rack position. And of course, much of your training will be with 2 KBs at once, so with my set, I'd be hefting 32kg each rep. My instructor said it would probably be years before most people would get to using 2x24kg for long-form sets, even if they can cheerfully hoist a single 24kg for say 10-20 reps of snatches. I can do 50-plus swings on the trot with 24kg and usually do 100 reps in a super set of swings and I'd be dead inside a minute doing 2x24kg. Like, my heart would pop out of my chest. You have to work up to it. So I would start with a single 16kg and aim to get another 16kg in a few months once you are comfortable with single hand exercises and sets up to 5 mins with no rest.
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2981 on: August 11, 2011, 01:52:36 AM »
Here are the new ones - the green ones with the milled steel handle. The blue ones are rubber handled, which are fine for swings and presses but not so great for exercises where the bell rubs against the palm a lot like snatches or jerks.



As you can see, the new ones are much bigger than the others despite being only 16kg. The big blue one in the back is 24kg but still fairly small. The black one is 20kg. The reason for the seemingly-excessive size is that all weights are the same size, which means that when I get bigger bells, I won't have to relearn all the exercises. The rack position etc will be exactly the same as with the current bell. Just heavier!
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2982 on: August 11, 2011, 02:11:52 AM »
Being a med school student and all, do you see a lot of experiments that run for a week? I'm guessing not. Reason being, bodyweight is fluctuating constantly because of a zillion factors. To isolate one factor like exercise you need to keep everything else controlled and you need to let it run for long enough for things like water retention, illness, bingeing and purging to average out. Even then, good luck finding someone who wants to do deadlifts for the purposes of LOSING weight rather than gaining it. As I said above, you are destroying muscle tissue by lifting heavy. If you lose weight, you are not rebuilding said muscle tissue. Therefore, the longer you do it, the harder the deadlifts are going to be and the more miserable you are going to be. And you'll end up weaker. It's just a great big soup of ??? I'm afraid
vjj

Eric P

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2983 on: August 11, 2011, 12:59:37 PM »
I have a quick question about nutrition tracking.  In the past I've used fitday, but I don't really like that site.  It was ok but I hated that I had to enter in so much custom information all the time.  Mapmyrun has a nutrition thing, but it seems really tacked on.  Doesn't allow you to sort by meals and due to the graphics involved it takes more time to enter the foods.

I was curious what, if anything, other people use.

I was going to use it predominately to do things like track carb intake.  I'm eating either LC or VLC, I believe, but I want to make certain that there isn't some staple of my diet which may be problematic.
Tonya

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2984 on: August 11, 2011, 09:32:38 PM »
You shouldn't really have to track that closely past say the first month so if I were you, I'd just suck it up and deal with fitday. I gave up on it very quickly myself though - it's all based around US foods so it's a complete PITA to put in what I buy and eat here.

(the reason I say you shouldn't have to track it that closely is that after your insulin sensitivity increases, you will be able to feel it pretty much instantly when you eat too many carbs...especially sugar)
vjj

Groogrux

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2985 on: August 11, 2011, 10:34:38 PM »
Btw, do not pour scorn on those who use lighter KBs until you've tried them. As you should know, it is quite possible to destroy yourself with bodyweight alone with the right exercises and the right number of reps. KBs are designed for long-form competitions, typically 5 or 10 minutes of continuous work, with the only rest coming in the rack position. And of course, much of your training will be with 2 KBs at once, so with my set, I'd be hefting 32kg each rep. My instructor said it would probably be years before most people would get to using 2x24kg for long-form sets, even if they can cheerfully hoist a single 24kg for say 10-20 reps of snatches. I can do 50-plus swings on the trot with 24kg and usually do 100 reps in a super set of swings and I'd be dead inside a minute doing 2x24kg. Like, my heart would pop out of my chest. You have to work up to it. So I would start with a single 16kg and aim to get another 16kg in a few months once you are comfortable with single hand exercises and sets up to 5 mins with no rest.

Okay, I just thought to ask this.  The video you posted was very big on proper form, and I'm grateful for that, but what is the rep/sets set up like?  I do standard 5X5 for most things except squats, but is that too little for the KB's?
WTF

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2986 on: August 12, 2011, 12:34:58 AM »

http://www.ikff.net/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=4&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6

I just got 2 of the 16kg ones, very nice indeed. Will post a pic in a minute.

Btw, do not pour scorn on those who use lighter KBs until you've tried them. As you should know, it is quite possible to destroy yourself with bodyweight alone with the right exercises and the right number of reps. KBs are designed for long-form competitions, typically 5 or 10 minutes of continuous work, with the only rest coming in the rack position. And of course, much of your training will be with 2 KBs at once, so with my set, I'd be hefting 32kg each rep. My instructor said it would probably be years before most people would get to using 2x24kg for long-form sets, even if they can cheerfully hoist a single 24kg for say 10-20 reps of snatches. I can do 50-plus swings on the trot with 24kg and usually do 100 reps in a super set of swings and I'd be dead inside a minute doing 2x24kg. Like, my heart would pop out of my chest. You have to work up to it. So I would start with a single 16kg and aim to get another 16kg in a few months once you are comfortable with single hand exercises and sets up to 5 mins with no rest.

Funny how you said that but the lightest KB in your link is pink. 

Those prices seem quite a bit more than what I've seen at the local sporting goods store.  Is it because of the coating?

I was thinking of 12, 16, and 20 kg to start.  What do you think?  Should I get two of each? 

Being a med school student and all, do you see a lot of experiments that run for a week? I'm guessing not. Reason being, bodyweight is fluctuating constantly because of a zillion factors. To isolate one factor like exercise you need to keep everything else controlled and you need to let it run for long enough for things like water retention, illness, bingeing and purging to average out. Even then, good luck finding someone who wants to do deadlifts for the purposes of LOSING weight rather than gaining it. As I said above, you are destroying muscle tissue by lifting heavy. If you lose weight, you are not rebuilding said muscle tissue. Therefore, the longer you do it, the harder the deadlifts are going to be and the more miserable you are going to be. And you'll end up weaker. It's just a great big soup of ??? I'm afraid

It was just a hypo.  But you're right that there are other factors that could be outside the control of the experiment.  For example, sleep could very likely be worsened by lifting heavy several times per week. 

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2987 on: August 12, 2011, 12:35:52 AM »
Also, what is a long form or short form KB exercise? 

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2988 on: August 12, 2011, 12:53:58 AM »
Btw, do not pour scorn on those who use lighter KBs until you've tried them. As you should know, it is quite possible to destroy yourself with bodyweight alone with the right exercises and the right number of reps. KBs are designed for long-form competitions, typically 5 or 10 minutes of continuous work, with the only rest coming in the rack position. And of course, much of your training will be with 2 KBs at once, so with my set, I'd be hefting 32kg each rep. My instructor said it would probably be years before most people would get to using 2x24kg for long-form sets, even if they can cheerfully hoist a single 24kg for say 10-20 reps of snatches. I can do 50-plus swings on the trot with 24kg and usually do 100 reps in a super set of swings and I'd be dead inside a minute doing 2x24kg. Like, my heart would pop out of my chest. You have to work up to it. So I would start with a single 16kg and aim to get another 16kg in a few months once you are comfortable with single hand exercises and sets up to 5 mins with no rest.

Okay, I just thought to ask this.  The video you posted was very big on proper form, and I'm grateful for that, but what is the rep/sets set up like?  I do standard 5X5 for most things except squats, but is that too little for the KB's?

'5-10 mins of continuous work' not enough of an explanation? Start swinging, don't put the bell down 'til you hit 5 mins? Too complicated?
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2989 on: August 12, 2011, 12:55:56 AM »

http://www.ikff.net/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=4&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6

I just got 2 of the 16kg ones, very nice indeed. Will post a pic in a minute.

Btw, do not pour scorn on those who use lighter KBs until you've tried them. As you should know, it is quite possible to destroy yourself with bodyweight alone with the right exercises and the right number of reps. KBs are designed for long-form competitions, typically 5 or 10 minutes of continuous work, with the only rest coming in the rack position. And of course, much of your training will be with 2 KBs at once, so with my set, I'd be hefting 32kg each rep. My instructor said it would probably be years before most people would get to using 2x24kg for long-form sets, even if they can cheerfully hoist a single 24kg for say 10-20 reps of snatches. I can do 50-plus swings on the trot with 24kg and usually do 100 reps in a super set of swings and I'd be dead inside a minute doing 2x24kg. Like, my heart would pop out of my chest. You have to work up to it. So I would start with a single 16kg and aim to get another 16kg in a few months once you are comfortable with single hand exercises and sets up to 5 mins with no rest.

Funny how you said that but the lightest KB in your link is pink. 

Those prices seem quite a bit more than what I've seen at the local sporting goods store.  Is it because of the coating?

I was thinking of 12, 16, and 20 kg to start.  What do you think?  Should I get two of each? 

Being a med school student and all, do you see a lot of experiments that run for a week? I'm guessing not. Reason being, bodyweight is fluctuating constantly because of a zillion factors. To isolate one factor like exercise you need to keep everything else controlled and you need to let it run for long enough for things like water retention, illness, bingeing and purging to average out. Even then, good luck finding someone who wants to do deadlifts for the purposes of LOSING weight rather than gaining it. As I said above, you are destroying muscle tissue by lifting heavy. If you lose weight, you are not rebuilding said muscle tissue. Therefore, the longer you do it, the harder the deadlifts are going to be and the more miserable you are going to be. And you'll end up weaker. It's just a great big soup of ??? I'm afraid

It was just a hypo.  But you're right that there are other factors that could be outside the control of the experiment.  For example, sleep could very likely be worsened by lifting heavy several times per week. 
vjj

Smooth Groove

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2990 on: August 12, 2011, 01:35:25 AM »
My bad, I just looked at your pic and thought that different weights are needed for different exercises. 

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2991 on: August 12, 2011, 02:05:49 AM »
Also, what is a long form or short form KB exercise? 

5-10 mins. If you can do 100 snatches in 5 mins with 24kg, you are good enough to be certified. Competitions run up to 10 mins, for max reps in the specified time.

vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2992 on: August 12, 2011, 02:07:07 AM »
My bad, I just looked at your pic and thought that different weights are needed for different exercises. 

To an extent that's true but you have to start with the basics. There is no point buying a lifetimes' worth of kettlebells all at once.
vjj

Eric P

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2993 on: August 12, 2011, 05:20:48 AM »
You shouldn't really have to track that closely past say the first month so if I were you, I'd just suck it up and deal with fitday. I gave up on it very quickly myself though - it's all based around US foods so it's a complete PITA to put in what I buy and eat here.

(the reason I say you shouldn't have to track it that closely is that after your insulin sensitivity increases, you will be able to feel it pretty much instantly when you eat too many carbs...especially sugar)

Ok, I'll just do the fitday mess.  I'm currently LC or VLC.  All of my carbs are from fruit / veggies.  No grain, no sugars, no juices.  though last week i did make a coconut milk / blueberry smoothie.
Tonya

Eric P

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2994 on: August 15, 2011, 09:05:14 AM »
added strength training to my running thanks to Robb Wolf's Paleo Solution.  fucking.  ow.  So on the days my legs don't hurt my arms will.  Awesome.

in other news though, I found that I can now fit into shirts that I hadn't fit into years ago.  Still doing VLC fairly strict (no grains, no legumes, rare dairy).  I had honey yesterday with chicken and had blueberries in coconut milk for dinner; those were my extravagances.
Tonya

Mupepe

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2995 on: August 15, 2011, 10:25:30 AM »
Don't worry, Eric.  The DOMS will go away after a week or two as long as you stick with it and eat enough. 

Cormacaroni

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2996 on: August 15, 2011, 12:12:48 PM »
Don't worry, Eric.  The DOMS will go away after a week or two as long as you stick with it and eat enough. 

...and stop training
vjj

Mupepe

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2997 on: August 15, 2011, 12:17:55 PM »
?

Edit: I guess to clarify (since this is probably what Cormac was trying to get at) is that you will always have continued soreness (if not, you're not hitting it hard enough).  But you grow used to it.  It just won't be the debilitating pain of DOMS that occurs in the first week or two for beginners or when you switch up your routine. 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 12:30:17 PM by Mupepe »

Eric P

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2998 on: August 15, 2011, 12:53:46 PM »
yeah i'm not too worried.
Tonya

Mupepe

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Re: FitnessBore - 2011 edition
« Reply #2999 on: August 16, 2011, 11:44:45 AM »
So I've been lifting heavy again for a week and I've already added an extra pullup to each set and I feel better.  I've also lost an additional 1.5 lbs.  I'll see how my compound lifts go when I'm back up to my old 5x5 max on them next week.