Freedom vs Teabagging: Japanese Gamers Sound Off

[ManaByte]

http://altjapan.typepad.com/my_weblog/2010/01/jrpgs.html

It's no secret that over the last few years, Japanese video game companies have been struggling to attract and retain the same foreign audience that once swarmed to play their products. In the spirit of constructive criticism, IGN writers Erik Brudvig and Ryan Clements published a top ten list of foreign players' top ten complaints about Japanese role-playing games on Monday. Less than a week later, a stack of Japanese replies and comments have appeared on the anonymous sanctuary of the 2ch BBS system.

 As expected, one country's "problems" are another's cultural pride and joy. Oh, the humanity.... People, can't we just get along? Read on for a translation of some of the highlights.

"What!? Fallout is the SAME THING! You fight the same enemies, collect the same items... There's no sense of exploring unknown territory or anything. No matter how much freedom the player has, that's all there is."

"Oblivion and Fallout fanatics are exponentially more annoying than any Final Fantasy fanatic."

"Hey foreigners: we find your first-person shooters boring as shit. What do you say to that?"

"When I see all the 'sniping' and corpse-desecrating 'teabagging' going on in US games, the thought of what what foreigners do when they get mad [in real life] freaks me out."

"I'm sorry, but the battle systems in foreign games are totally boring."

"Yeah, like Oblivion's. But I guess it isn't the main focus of that game."

"Japanese RPGs are created for the express purpose of letting one experience the blooming of their full powers from a total zero starting point. They're necessary for keeping public order in Japan."

"Okay, so give us some foreign RPGs that are more interesting than Japanese ones. I just don't find foreign RPGs interesting at all."

"Oblivion's okay, but foreign games lack subtlety. They lack detail, and the character design and stories are bad."

"Americans can't understand complexity so a lot of the best stuff doesn't get translated. Like Megami Tensei!"

"That bit about "The Road Less Travelled?" #7? That's a common complaint... of inexperienced gamers. Like, I felt that way when I was in grade school."

"So sorry, but I LIKE Japanese-style RPGs."

"The real problem with Japanese RPGs is that the storylines aren't written by pros, only gamers."

"Oblivion didn't fare that well here, and Japanese don't really get into real-time strategy games."

"I call 'cultural differences'!"

"Show me an American-made RPG that satisfactorily addresses all of these complaints."

"Do foreign companies even make RPGs anymore? The only games that come to mind are first-person shooter action games. If we followed this 'advice' to the letter they'd have us making Grand Theft Auto clones."

[Great Rumbler]

lol

[Fragamemnon]

yep, needs more lolis

honestly though this is the appropriate reaction from the genre fans. they have their tastes, they are happy with the current status quo, and a lot of the suggested "fixes" from IGN's list would both change the character of the games (alienating an already tenuous fanbase) and ramp up costs/development time/risk by a large margin.

oh and at least they have the taste to note that oblivion is bad.

[Brehvolution]

 

[Stoney Mason]

I happened to read the original article and it was quite stupid typical bad IGN pontificating. Basically it said turn all JRPG's into WRPG's.

Which is actually probably correct from a sales perspective but pretty much impossible from a cultural perspective.

[tiesto]

lol IGN is distinguished mentally-challenged.

[iconoclast]

Oblivion is probably the worst game ever created.

"Japanese RPGs are created for the express purpose of letting one experience the blooming of their full powers from a total zero starting point. They're necessary for keeping public order in Japan."

 

[Eel O'Brian]

"your western games lack the depth and complexity of underage rape simulation that i require"

[Fragamemnon]

Seriously though IGN's suggestions seem like a great way to make a bunch of high-cost games that don't appeal to the core Japanese audience and then might not appeal at all to the American one. Result=bankrupt companies and an even faster slide to obscurity.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

ice burn

[Stoney Mason]

Seriously though IGN's suggestions seem like a great way to make a bunch of high-cost games that don't appeal to the core Japanese audience and then might not appeal at all to the American one. Result=bankrupt companies and an even faster slide to obscurity.

There is a reason why Japanese games are the way they are. American games are the way they are. European games are the way they are, etc. There are a lot of cultural markers that determine game design that only truly work if you were brought up in that culture.


Yes these different markets influence each other and have a slow subtle cross pollination effect but it has to remain that. When people try to force it, it ends up half baked and 9 times out of 10 a poor imitation or clone of what they are going for.

[archie4208]

Yes these different markets influence each other and have a slow subtle cross pollination effect but it has to remain that. When people try to force it, it ends up half baked and 9 times out of 10 a poor imitation or clone of what they are going for.

*cough* Resident Evil 5 *cough*

[Stoney Mason]

Yes these different markets influence each other and have a slow subtle cross pollination effect but it has to remain that. When people try to force it, it ends up half baked and 9 times out of 10 a poor imitation or clone of what they are going for.

*cough* Resident Evil 5 *cough*

I liked RE5 but the worst part of it was the controls which are definitely an issue in that title. The major influence on RE5 was Gears of War which I don't have a problem with (I know some people would have preferred an RE 4 redux edition which is a valid opinion to have just not one I necessarily share) but if you are going to do that then understand that the controls have to be a big part of it if you are going for that.


Dead Space is a rare example of a game taking a genre closely identified with another culture but doing it right and combining elements of the old with an American mentality. So it can be done. It is just rare and requires a lot of good design work.

[MCD]

mass effect is the only good western rpg anyway

[Howard Alan Treesong]

mass effect is the only good western rpg anyway

Enemies in Final Fantasy XIII have a much more important number attached to them than the mortal concept of “hit points”. The number is, uhh, well, there’s really no snappy little name for it. There’s a meter beneath an enemy’s name and life gauge (crucial: enemies have long, horizontal green life gauges; remember this (we are going to get back to it later)) with the word “BREAK” in big, shiny, italic capital letters. It starts out completely empty. Your goal is to fill it up. Whoa! That’s like the exact opposite of what you have to do to an enemy’s life gauge! Yeah, this game is really going to shift the hell out of your paradigm.

so it's like a Break Gauge or something

[Great Rumbler]

mass effect is the only good western rpg anyway

You forgot Fallout 3. 

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines 

[close]

[Sho Nuff]

I always find it funny when the press pretends like it knows how to make or market games*. It's even funnier when they make recommendations for software that's engineered for an audience totally different from theirs.

* Protip: They don't, that's why they're hired as Community Managers.

Cold as ice

[Joe Molotov]

Sorry Japan, all I heard was "blah blah blah uguu uguu~!"

[pilonv1]

Community managers

outside of an MMO what game needs a community manager?

[Mupepe]

Forza!

Forza

[The Fake Shemp]

Community managers

[chronovore]

Cold as ice

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm not serious. :'(

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

It doesn't change the fact that your original statement was correct.

[close]

[originalz]

I like how if you actually read the 2ch comments, the majority of them are actually reasonably written and go into some pretty interesting discussion about world appeal of RPGs and such.

But hell, let's just take a handful of extreme comments and use them to represent the majority!  Can't let those reasonable opinions get in the way of sensationalist journalism!  It would be like a Japanese site reading GAF and only using the stupid-ass troll posts to represent western gaming culture as a whole.

[chronovore]

Or like assuming the teabaggers are the majority of online players.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

WRPG fans have little room to talk: the RPG genre concepts have more or less remained the same since the mid 90s.  The only difference is that western developers have embraced this generation of consoles better than eastern developers who seem to want to focus on handhelds instead.

I had a lot of fun with Blue Dragon and I hear Demon's Souls is a great game as well.  As is Vesperia.  It seems like if JRPG developers make a good RPG, it can be really good.  Just like in the PS2 era.

People who are dancing around like faggurts claiming the JRPG is dead has their heads entrenched in their asses.  Especially as they play another generic medieval WRPG.  "Oh boy, I get to be a paladin!"

[Great Rumbler]

I understand that changing the JRPG formula would be almost impossible at this point and would likely result in a big reduction in sales, but that doesn't mean I have to like the way the genre's going.

[Stoney Mason]

I understand that changing the JRPG formula would be almost impossible at this point and would likely result in a big reduction in sales, but that doesn't mean I have to like the way the genre's going.

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion on JRPG's. Personally I've grown mostly weary of the genre myself at least compared to how many I use to play.

[tiesto]

I understand that changing the JRPG formula would be almost impossible at this point and would likely result in a big reduction in sales, but that doesn't mean I have to like the way the genre's going.

So, go play something else. There are more than enough games in any other genre for you to play.

[Great Rumbler]

I understand that changing the JRPG formula would be almost impossible at this point and would likely result in a big reduction in sales, but that doesn't mean I have to like the way the genre's going.

So, go play something else.

That's what I'm doing.

But that doesn't change the fact that I'd like to see some JRPGs that capture my interest like the batch from the PS1 era.

[TripleA]

The reason why JRPGs and other 'culturally Japan' games have failed/will fail in the West, is because the gameplay mechanics and story telling aspects of Japanese games are incredibly outdated.

Western games have become simpler and more accessible while Japanese games have gone in the opposite direction. This is why the success of Demons Souls (in the West) was such a surprise, it literally contradicts Western game design in every imaginable way yet it still performed exceptionally well with critics and with retailers.

I think Final Fantasy 13 marks the official death of JRPGs in their current form. Only hype and franchise popularity can save the game from becoming one of the biggest disappointments of this generation.

[MCD]

dude, FF13 is only the beginning

game will be fuck lightning up my ass yes

[Mr. Gundam]

If Japan made nothing but turn-based JRPGs and robot games, I'd be happy until the end of time.

[Bebpo]

The reason why JRPGs and other 'culturally Japan' games have failed/will fail in the West, is because the gameplay mechanics and story telling aspects of Japanese games are incredibly outdated.

Western games have become simpler and more accessible while Japanese games have gone in the opposite direction. This is why the success of Demons Souls (in the West) was such a surprise, it literally contradicts Western game design in every imaginable way yet it still performed exceptionally well with critics and with retailers.

I think Final Fantasy 13 marks the official death of JRPGs in their current form. Only hype and franchise popularity can save the game from becoming one of the biggest disappointments of this generation.

not sure if I agree or disagree....

You're saying that western rpgs will beat jrpgs in the west because they've allowed themselves to be dumbed down for joe 6 pack.  Hmmmmmmmm....maybe you are right.

[Mr. Gundam]

I don't think I agree that Western games are more simple or accessible.  I actually find starting a wRPG to be incredibly daunting.  I have to choose my chin width and cheek depth and lip puffyness and oh god I just want to hit some fucking monsters over the head. 

[Jansen]

[youtube=560,345][/youtube]

further proof that wrpgs are superior

[cool breeze]

I don't think I agree that Western games are more simple or accessible.  I actually find starting a wRPG to be incredibly daunting.  I have to choose my chin width and cheek depth and lip puffyness and oh god I just want to hit some fucking monsters over the head. 

yeah, the feeling of "ugh I'm gonna be looking at this guy for the next 30+ hours, better make it look right" always makes me spend several minutes just making a decent character, and I always fuck up (big chin on Male shepard, eye depth on female shepard).  I liked the Dragon Age character creator because I had everything before I was able to jump in and play.  At least Mass Effect provides an actual default character, though, not a female one. 

[youtube=560,345][/youtube]

further proof that wrpgs are superior

what

[maxy]

ugu

 

[Green Shinobi]

Anyone have a link to the original article?

[BobFromPikeCreek]

I don't understand. A lot of the complaints they list are more evident in JRPGs than WRPGs.

[Great Rumbler]

[youtube=560,345][/youtube]

further proof that wrpgs are superior

 :usavich

[tiesto]

I don't think I agree that Western games are more simple or accessible.  I actually find starting a wRPG to be incredibly daunting.  I have to choose my chin width and cheek depth and lip puffyness and oh god I just want to hit some fucking monsters over the head. 

Yes and no matter how long you put into the character creation system, they still come out looking like an ugly-ass mutant.

[Van Cruncheon]

I don't think I agree that Western games are more simple or accessible.  I actually find starting a wRPG to be incredibly daunting.  I have to choose my chin width and cheek depth and lip puffyness and oh god I just want to hit some fucking monsters over the head. 

Yes and no matter how long you put into the character creation system, they still come out looking like an ugly-ass mutant.

so whack the random button until you get one you like-ish, or go with the preset

it's your own damn fault if you spend too much time in the trivial parts of character creation, that cheek depth and brow width shit is there for the ocd freaks what LIKE it

[The Fake Shemp]

Character creation is so tough and overwhelming! I wish BioWare and Bethesda would just make my characters look like lolis, that'd be so much easier.

[demi]

I dont see anything wrong with that EoE scene. Context please? Janson likes SO4 but reels at this little clip. Pretend you dont care any more... bro. Another Himuro, for sure

[demi]

I don't think I agree that Western games are more simple or accessible.  I actually find starting a wRPG to be incredibly daunting.  I have to choose my chin width and cheek depth and lip puffyness and oh god I just want to hit some fucking monsters over the head. 

Yes and no matter how long you put into the character creation system, they still come out looking like an ugly-ass mutant.

> implying japanese are not ugly ass mutants

[Van Cruncheon]

I dont see anything wrong with that EoE scene. Context please? Janson likes SO4 but reels at this little clip. Pretend you dont care any more... bro. Another Himuro, for sure

yeah, it was just goofy animu spazzo shit of the sort you see in every final fantasy or similar title. it is not even in the same ballpark as the FUCK AMAZING DINNER DANCE

[cool breeze]

I don't think I agree that Western games are more simple or accessible.  I actually find starting a wRPG to be incredibly daunting.  I have to choose my chin width and cheek depth and lip puffyness and oh god I just want to hit some fucking monsters over the head. 

Yes and no matter how long you put into the character creation system, they still come out looking like an ugly-ass mutant.

so whack the random button until you get one you like-ish, or go with the preset

it's your own damn fault if you spend too much time in the trivial parts of character creation, that cheek depth and brow width shit is there for the ocd freaks what LIKE it

This is true, especially the cheek thing.  I have mad ocd and go crazy about cheeks.  There is the depth, protrusion, fullness, height, width, structure WHERE DOES IT END

[The Fake Shemp]

Pre-pubescent girls and animu characters are not mutants! Take it back!

[tiesto]

Character creation is so tough and overwhelming! I wish BioWare and Bethesda would just make my characters look like lolis, that'd be so much easier.

Agreed, that would be pretty awesome.

And yes I'm an ocd freak, Prole.

[magus]

ah-ah bore! i'm going to win this thread right now with just a single move
[youtube=560,345][/youtube]
bonus
[youtube=560,345][/youtube]

[MCD]

shepard default face is sexier than most jrpgs characters.

[Van Cruncheon]

so whack the random button until you get one you like-ish, or go with the preset

it's your own damn fault if you spend too much time in the trivial parts of character creation, that cheek depth and brow width shit is there for the ocd freaks what LIKE it

I find if I do that and start the game, once the character starts getting seen in various cut-scenes, there's always *something* hideous about them.  Games with super-customization really need to have a "default" character that you know doesn't look terrible the way Bioware has done with ME2.

not a problem if you skip cutscenes!

[chronovore]

I don't understand. A lot of the complaints they list are more evident in JRPGs than WRPGs.

I think the lesson to walk away from this with is that people have a tendency to misunderstand other people's viewpoints, sometimes deliberately, sometimes not.

Personally I think jRPGs and wRPGs have more problems in common than they do different problems.

Yeah, I'm recalling the "people are fine with you entering their home and rifling their chests" complaint about JRPGs, and I've only seen a couple western ones make that distinction. Fable 2 and Fallout 3. I went through half of Baldur's Gate before I realized I was SUPPOSED to be robbing everyone's house because no-one cared and there was no character repercussions. Then again, I'm not much of a computer RPG fan.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I think both JRPGs and WRPGs have remained stagnant for a while.  JRPG developers bailed out to handhelds, which I imagine are seen as more lucrative in Japan.  SE was better off making DQ9 for DS for instance as opposed to spending $30 million for a PS3 version that would be lucky to break even.

WRPGs have mostly been PC based so the existing HD consoles are suited to get these games - allowing for a good opportunity to rake in some $$$ on some ports.  The JRPG's time in the sun was last generation: they don't have much to gain from the HD consoles if most of their target market are on handhelds.

If PS3 was a much bigger hit than it turned out to be there, I imagine we would have seen more JRPG efforts.

[Cormacaroni]

I don't understand. A lot of the complaints they list are more evident in JRPGs than WRPGs.

I think the lesson to walk away from this with is that people have a tendency to misunderstand other people's viewpoints, sometimes deliberately, sometimes not.

Personally I think jRPGs and wRPGs have more problems in common than they do different problems.

Yeah, I'm recalling the "people are fine with you entering their home and rifling their chests" complaint about JRPGs, and I've only seen a couple western ones make that distinction. Fable 2 and Fallout 3. I went through half of Baldur's Gate before I realized I was SUPPOSED to be robbing everyone's house because no-one cared and there was no character repercussions. Then again, I'm not much of a computer RPG fan.

Got a bit of a nasty shock when I tried this in Dragon Age! Even in Baldur's Gate, I think it was possible to enrage home owners. It's just that most of them are so feeble/unnecessary to plot points that there are still effectively no repercussions.

[Ichirou]

I dont see anything wrong with that EoE scene. Context please? Janson likes SO4 but reels at this little clip. Pretend you dont care any more... bro. Another Himuro, for sure

yeah, it was just goofy animu spazzo shit of the sort you see in every final fantasy or similar title. it is not even in the same ballpark as the FUCK AMAZING DINNER DANCE

I found it pretty funny.  Obviously intentionally ridiculous.  Still looking forward to EoE/Resonance of Fate.

[pilonv1]

Yeah in Baldurs Gate people get shitty if you steal their stuff in front of them. I'm pretty sure Oblivion/Morrowind are the same.

[Great Rumbler]

I'm pretty sure Oblivion/Morrowind are the same.

Yes.

[brawndolicious]

yeah in Oblivion and Fallout, you would gain negative karma and be fined/jailed/attacked if a guard caught you.  I think the AI "forgets" about it after 3 days though.  It was actually pretty fun sneaking around pickpocketing and picking locks in those games.

[Cormacaroni]

Anyone know the bit I'm talking about in DA? I was quite taken aback. It was almost a 'breaking the 3rd wall' moment. Like the designers were just saying 'haha, you treated this like every other game but oh ho ho, we have your ass now'.