BART shooting verdict.

[brawndolicious]

http://www.ktvu.com/news/24188551/detail.html

Involuntary manslaughter.  I'm glad, that's the most sensible decision imo.

[Boogie]

http://www.ktvu.com/news/24188551/detail.html

Involuntary manslaughter.  I'm glad, that's the most sensible decision imo.

Voluntary manslaughter probably would have been better than involuntary.  Murder was always going to be a stretch.  He should get more than just 4 years though. 

[brawndolicious]

you're right.  It seems like this was a "heat of the moment" mistake.

[Bocsius]

I thought Bart Simpson might have shot somebody.

[Ichirou]

"Heat of the moment mistake."  What bullshit.

[ManaByte]

http://www.ktvu.com/news/24188551/detail.html

Involuntary manslaughter.  I'm glad, that's the most sensible decision imo.

Voluntary manslaughter probably would have been better than involuntary.  Murder was always going to be a stretch.  He should get more than just 4 years though. 

He will. The 4 years is before the mandatory gun enhancement. They're saying between 6 and 10.

[Ichirou]

He won't serve 6 to 10 years, I guarantee.

[Ichirou]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/08/BAFL1EBKII.DTL&tsp=1

Rioting going on in Oakland now.

[Beardo]

one building was spray painted with the words, "Say no to work. Say yes to looting."

San Francisco sounds like a shithole.

[Phoenix Dark]

http://www.ktvu.com/news/24188551/detail.html

Involuntary manslaughter.  I'm glad, that's the most sensible decision imo.

you've got to be shitting me

[Ichirou]

am nintenho has pretty much admitted to being a police officer.  You've gotta see where his bias lies.

[chronovore]

Are pistols really that difficult to differentiate from tasers? Real question.

[Great Rumbler]

Are pistols really that difficult to differentiate from tasers? Real question.

Some of them are pistol-shaped [handle with a barrel], but they're usually very yellow as opposed to black like a pistol always is.

[Cravis]

The "victim" must have been such a fine, upstanding citizen, of the highest order if it took 3 or 4 transit officers to try to arrest him.

[Dickie Dee]

The "victim" must have been such a fine, upstanding citizen, of the highest order if it took 3 or 4 transit officers to try to arrest him.

you do know there's video of the whole thing? video that makes you look like a distinguished mentally-challenged fellow right now

[Boogie]

Are pistols really that difficult to differentiate from tasers? Real question.

they are pretty easy to distinguish under normal circumstances.  Although tasers do have a pistol-like grip, the weight and feel of a gun vs. A taser are completely different.

The problem is that the human body does some wonky things when in stressful situations, sympathetic nerve response, distorted perceptions, that sort of thing. 

That's why the taser should, IMO, be strapped to your support side leg, or belt, not on the same side as your pistol, which I can only assume was the case here.  That way, you are doing a completely different motor skill to draw the taser vs. the gun, in order to not make that sort of mistake.

[Boogie]

Some of them are pistol-shaped [handle with a barrel], but they're usually very yellow as opposed to black like a pistol always is.

My pistol is silver.

[Cravis]

you do know there's video of the whole thing? video that makes you look like a distinguished mentally-challenged fellow right now

Actually I have seen the video and the point I was making was that the dude was pretty much trash to begin with. Resisting officers, already served time for a weapons charge. Yeah, like he'd make a productive member of society. Guy had an attitude problem and didn't like authority figures. One less douche bag we have to put up with everyday on the city streets. Yes the officer shouldn't have shot him but to me the guy was doing society a favor. I don't care if he was black, white, purple, or green. I don't care if the officer was black, white, purple, or green.

What pisses me off is all the people coming out and wanting to protest about this guy. If this guy that was shot was standing stranded on the side of the road with a flat tire would ANY of those protesting come to his aid? Highly doubt it. They don't care about him as a person just the color of his skin. If it was a white guy shot by a white cop there would be no protests. They're playing the race card and it's getting fucking old. As long as the racial card is brought up, usually by those who claim they want race to be forgotten, there will ALWAYS be racial divide.

[Mandark]

If this is the guy who was laying face down when he got shot, then wtf at this verdict.

[Mupepe]

PURPLE RAIN, PURPLE RAIN

yeah

[ManaByte]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/08/BAFL1EBKII.DTL&tsp=1

Rioting going on in Oakland now.

That was overnight. Not this morning.

http://cbs5.com/local/Crowd.of.400.2.1795716.html

Relative calm returned to the streets of downtown Oakland Friday morning as protesters unhappy with the verdict in the Johannes Mesherle trial abandoned the area and police and business owners continue to assess the damage inflicted by rioters Thursday night.

Police said a group of looters broke into stores as a group of about 800 people demonstrated after Mehserle was convicted of the lesser charge in the videotaped shooting death of Oscar Grant III at Oakland's Fruitvale BART station in 2009.

Cleaning crews began sweeping up broken glass and debris from the sidewalks early Friday morning. Graffiti on one building declared, "Oakland is our amusement park tonight!"

[Ichirou]

WHen I posted it it was nighttime?

[ManaByte]

Also most of the rioters were white anarchists. They were the ones who spray painted the sayings.

[brawndolicious]

http://www.ktvu.com/news/24188551/detail.html
Involuntary manslaughter.  I'm glad, that's the most sensible decision imo.

you've got to be shitting me

The alternative is believing that Mehserle intended to murder this guy in a crowded station.  It's easier to believe that Mehserle is incompetent.

[brawndolicious]

Civilians have gotten much more bullshit firearms acquittals.  Do I think the sentencing for involuntary manslaughter (2-4 years) is too light?  yes.

The only way I could convict somebody of murder is if they intended to kill that person.  Do you think Mehserle wanted to kill Oscar Grant?

[Diunx]

you do know there's video of the whole thing? video that makes you look like a distinguished mentally-challenged fellow right now

Actually I have seen the video and the point I was making was that the dude was pretty much trash to begin with. Resisting officers, already served time for a weapons charge. Yeah, like he'd make a productive member of society. Guy had an attitude problem and didn't like authority figures. One less douche bag we have to put up with everyday on the city streets. Yes the officer shouldn't have shot him but to me the guy was doing society a favor. I don't care if he was black, white, purple, or green. I don't care if the officer was black, white, purple, or green.

What pisses me off is all the people coming out and wanting to protest about this guy. If this guy that was shot was standing stranded on the side of the road with a flat tire would ANY of those protesting come to his aid? Highly doubt it. They don't care about him as a person just the color of his skin. If it was a white guy shot by a white cop there would be no protests. They're playing the race card and it's getting fucking old. As long as the racial card is brought up, usually by those who claim they want race to be forgotten, there will ALWAYS be racial divide.

You are a piece of shit.

[brawndolicious]

I have no idea.  What I do know is that he pulled his gun and shot him in the back.  The excuse from a trained police officer that he thought it was a taser should be thin enough to get a murder conviction.  Oopsie! excuses are for filing vacation requests wrong or being late to work.

I agree that it is directly Mehserle's fault and that he should be punished for it but I don't believe that he intended to kill him (just no reason for him to).  In that case, voluntary manslaughter would be the best charge as boogie suggested.  He would get up to 10 years from that alone and I guess a firearms charge could be tacked on top of that.  Would that charge and sentence sound fair to you?

[Ichirou]

http://www.ktvu.com/news/24188551/detail.html
Involuntary manslaughter.  I'm glad, that's the most sensible decision imo.

you've got to be shitting me

The alternative is believing that Mehserle intended to murder this guy in a crowded station.  It's easier to believe that Mehserle is incompetent.

I can link video of a police office in PR shooting a guy to death because he got pissed off, in broad daylight, in the middle of the street.  Not hard to believe a thug with a weapon would lose his temper and shoot a guy in anger.

Try harder, officer.

[brawndolicious]

Good for you.  You lived in a shithole country.

Civilian.

Voluntary manslaughter is the least sentence that is reasonable. 

Honestly I don't get why bart police have guns.

[Ichirou]

Honestly I don't get why bart police have guns.

When you become commissioner you can tell them they can't use guns anymore, officer nintenho.

[FatalT]

you do know there's video of the whole thing? video that makes you look like a distinguished mentally-challenged fellow right now

Actually I have seen the video and the point I was making was that the dude was pretty much trash to begin with. Resisting officers, already served time for a weapons charge. Yeah, like he'd make a productive member of society. Guy had an attitude problem and didn't like authority figures. One less douche bag we have to put up with everyday on the city streets. Yes the officer shouldn't have shot him but to me the guy was doing society a favor. I don't care if he was black, white, purple, or green. I don't care if the officer was black, white, purple, or green.

What pisses me off is all the people coming out and wanting to protest about this guy. If this guy that was shot was standing stranded on the side of the road with a flat tire would ANY of those protesting come to his aid? Highly doubt it. They don't care about him as a person just the color of his skin. If it was a white guy shot by a white cop there would be no protests. They're playing the race card and it's getting fucking old. As long as the racial card is brought up, usually by those who claim they want race to be forgotten, there will ALWAYS be racial divide.

You are a piece of shit.

Why?

[rodi]

I think all of this is just unfortunate, but I'm not really sorry that Oscar Grant is dead either. Very fucked up to say, but I'd be lying if I said otherwise.

[Boogie]

I can link video of a police office in PR shooting a guy to death because he got pissed off, in broad daylight, in the middle of the street.

Is that the same guy you referred to in the other thread?  The guy who got, like, a 100 year sentence, or something?  Guy commits murder, guy gets 100 years in prison.  The system works.

 Not hard to believe a thug with a weapon would lose his temper and shoot a guy in anger.

Try harder, officer.

No, not hard to believe at all.  Hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, however.   Which, y'know, is kind of the the bar that is set for a conviction on a criminal charge.

[Boogie]

I think all of this is just unfortunate, but I'm not really sorry that Oscar Grant is dead either. Very fucked up to say, but I'd be lying if I said otherwise.

I cannot remotely agree with this.

Grant may have not been a shining beacon of humanity, but he did not deserve to die.

For me, the sentiment you expressed above is reserved for the likes of those who actively seek to murder or prey on others, or child or sexual predators and the like.  Not for two-bit criminals, which is, as far as I am aware, the worst that can be said of Grant.  Granted, he had a conviction for drug dealing, and possession of a loaded pistol, but that means he deserved to spend time in prison, which he did, not die.

[Boogie]

Why?

No, he pretty much is a piece of shit.  I can defend that attitude when it follows a good, righteous shoot.  But this was not remotely that.   (What's a righteous shoot?  The officer who gunned downed Maurice Clemmons after the killing of the four Lakewood officers, just for example)

The only point he might have is that the rioters are going to be criminals and thugs merely using this situation as an excuse to run rampant and break the law.  Similar to the black bloc types that show up to international summits.

But when your response to a shooting death is:

"Yeah, like he'd make a productive member of society. Guy had an attitude problem and didn't like authority figures. One less douche bag we have to put up with everyday on the city streets. Yes the officer shouldn't have shot him but to me the guy was doing society a favor"

then there's something fucking wrong with you.

[Boogie]

Honestly I don't get why bart police have guns.

Hard to limit the ability to carry firearms on duty in the US, when they've got such a hard-on for firearms enshrined in their constitution.  Can't prevent a transit cop from carrying a gun as part of his duties, when the average joe could carry a gun.   (not knowing California-specific laws on firearms possession, of course)

In contrast, transit enforcement officers in Canada generally aren't classified as police officers.  For example, Toronto Transit Commission officers are merely Special Constables and therefore only carry batons and pepper spray for their use of force, not guns.

[brawndolicious]

Yeah I hate that about firearms in this country.  Even beat cops in London go around unarmed.

[Boogie]

Even beat cops in London go around unarmed.

Yes, well, I don't agree with that, either.  Sworn police officer without the authority to carry a gun?  No thank you verymuch.

(lest y'all think I'm some crazy gun freak, I also can't fathom American cops who carry all the time, both off duty and on, and who feel completely naked, vulnerable, and uncomfortable if they're not carrying a gun.  That kind of fear/obsession just ain't healthy, imo.  But then, American gun violence and crime is practically an order of magnitude higher than here in Soviet Canuckistan   )

[ManaByte]

Honestly I don't get why bart police have guns.

Hard to limit the ability to carry firearms on duty in the US, when they've got such a hard-on for firearms enshrined in their constitution.  Can't prevent a transit cop from carrying a gun as part of his duties, when the average joe could carry a gun.   (not knowing California-specific laws on firearms possession, of course)

In contrast, transit enforcement officers in Canada generally aren't classified as police officers.  For example, Toronto Transit Commission officers are merely Special Constables and therefore only carry batons and pepper spray for their use of force, not guns.

For hand guns, it's relatively easy for about anyone in CA to get a permit, not to mention illegal firearms.

However in CA the handgun permit and rules for cops have one major similarity: You're not to have a bullet in the chamber unless you intend to fire it. In the video, he didn't cock the gun, which meant he either intended to shoot someone or is an idiot. The prosecution in the case is stupid for not pointing that out.

[Ichirou]

I can link video of a police office in PR shooting a guy to death because he got pissed off, in broad daylight, in the middle of the street.

Is that the same guy you referred to in the other thread?  The guy who got, like, a 100 year sentence, or something?  Guy commits murder, guy gets 100 years in prison.  The system works.

 Not hard to believe a thug with a weapon would lose his temper and shoot a guy in anger.

Try harder, officer.

No, not hard to believe at all.  Hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, however.   Which, y'know, is kind of the the bar that is set for a conviction on a criminal charge.

You know, I can just imagine you with a hard-on whenever you reply to one of my posts.

[Boogie]

You know, I can just imagine you with a hard-on whenever you reply to one of my posts.

Creeeeepy.

[Mandark]

Most disturbing part of the thread to this point is am nintenho using "civilian" as an epithet.

[Ichirou]

You know, I can just imagine you with a hard-on whenever you reply to one of my posts.

Creeeeepy.

Not as creepy as when you 'roid out.

[chronovore]

Ichi, seriously, you're a reasonable poster about half the time. The other half I know you're intentionally trolling, but it's tiresome.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Nah, Ichirou is asshurt approximately 99% of the time.  He has the Sahara desert in his vagina.

[Dickie Dee]

Most disturbing part of the thread to this point is am nintenho using "civilian" as an epithet.

To be fair, he's been stuck in his Robocop cosplay gear all week and is just going with it

[brawndolicious]

No, Ichirou was just trying to troll up this thread and ended some post calling me an officer and I threw back a "civilian".  Does that make me petty?  I don't know, but I obviously wasn't trying to use "civilian" as an insult.

[rodi]

I don't think that he deserved to die, just I'm not really sorry now that he's already dead. Anyway, I'm cold hearted that way after seeing distinguished mentally-challenged people being given second chances, then third chances, then fourth chances...etc...

Frustrating, to say the least.

[chronovore]

 
You know, seriously, I don't see what you think is defensible about this. "Second chances..." blah blah blah. It's a case where a guy was lying face down on the concrete, and was shot in the back and killed.

This is not a guy fleeing the scene of a crime.

This is not a guy who had got off a murder rap on a technicality, or raped a nun.

It's a guy who had been up on a weapons possession charge, which may or may not have even been known when he was being subdued. IIRC the video shows him turning his head to see his friends, trying to talk to the officers involved. And then he's shot in the back and killed. Earlier reports from eyewitnesses stated that it looked rage-induced, as the officer stopped, stood, drew his weapon and fired, point-blank, into the prone, unarmed, defenseless man's back.

[rodi]

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been shot if he just cooperated with the cops in the first place. I'm just saying.

Ok ok, I'll admit, didn't deserve to get shot anyway blah blah blah...point is: imo, I'm not really sorry he's dead. And this is being said whilst shrugging my shoulders and going straight back to taking a nap. I just don't care that much for either the BART cop or Oscar Grant.

[chronovore]

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been shot if he just cooperated with the cops in the first place. I'm just saying.

Ok ok, I'll admit, didn't deserve to get shot anyway blah blah blah...point is: imo, I'm not really sorry he's dead. And this is being said whilst shrugging my shoulders and going straight back to taking a nap. I just don't care that much for either the BART cop or Oscar Grant.

I'm still failing to see how lying face down on the concrete is not considered sufficient cooperation.

[bagofeyes]

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been shot if he just cooperated with the cops in the first place. I'm just saying.

Ok ok, I'll admit, didn't deserve to get shot anyway blah blah blah...point is: imo, I'm not really sorry he's dead. And this is being said whilst shrugging my shoulders and going straight back to taking a nap. I just don't care that much for either the BART cop or Oscar Grant.

I'm still failing to see how lying face down on the concrete is not considered sufficient cooperation.

he shouldn't have worn such provocative clothing

[Boogie]

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been shot if he just cooperated with the cops in the first place. I'm just saying.

No, I'm sorry, but that's still a bullshit statement.  That is not a defence, a justification, or excuse for what happened.

A shooting is justified when a subject poses the threat of grievous bodily harm or death to the police officer, or the public.  That's it.

Someone who is combative does not get shot.  Someone who is resisting does not get shot.  Someone who is wiggling around when you are trying to cuff them does not get shot.  The above is not a rational statement.

The officer may not be guilty of murder in the legal sense, but he is still guilty and convicted, he still owns this, and he still needs to spend a non-trivial number of years behind bars.

[Boogie]

I'm still failing to see how lying face down on the concrete is not considered sufficient cooperation.

well, cooperation means doing what a police officer tells you to do, and not offering resistance to the cuffs, even if you're on the ground.

[rodi]

You're all assuming that the cop meant to shot the guy in the back, instead he was a douche and grabbed the gun, and not the taser. This situation is a prime example of everything that CAN go wrong, GOING wrong. And it all started out with one douche acting like a distinguished mentally-challenged fellow, and wiggling around on the ground like some sort of worm instead of just taking the cuff's. I'm not taking either side on this, both the cop and the other guy are both idiots.

You're all just mad, because I said I'm not sorry someone's dead. Wah.

[Boogie]

However in CA the handgun permit and rules for cops have one major similarity: You're not to have a bullet in the chamber unless you intend to fire it. In the video, he didn't cock the gun, which meant he either intended to shoot someone or is an idiot. The prosecution in the case is stupid for not pointing that out.

I must say, that's an absolutely insane policy.  When you have a legitimate need to exercise deadly force, you can't have anything in your way of discharging your firearm.  A half-second delay needed to cock a bullet in the chamber can be the difference between life and death.

I wonder if that fact wasn't used by the prosecution because perhaps that policy is one that is discreetly ignored by California law enforcement, and to bring it up to convict the officer here would raise hell in a wider sense.

[Boogie]

You're all assuming that the cop meant to shot the guy in the back, instead he was a douche and grabbed the gun, and not the taser. This situation is a prime example of everything that CAN go wrong, GOING wrong. And it all started out with one douche acting like a distinguished mentally-challenged fellow, and wiggling around on the ground like some sort of worm instead of just taking the cuff's. I'm not taking either side on this, both the cop and the other guy are both idiots.

All of those excuses are irrelevant, because ultimately a police officer is responsible for the rounds that leave his pistol.  All of those things "going wrong" are irrelevant, because they do not mitigate the fact that the officer had NO EXCUSE for discharging his pistol.

I actually agree that he probably didn't "intend" to shoot the guy.  And so, apparently, did the jury.

But he's still guilty of an offence, he still deserves to go to jail, and Grant still did not deserve to die.

[rodi]

However in CA the handgun permit and rules for cops have one major similarity: You're not to have a bullet in the chamber unless you intend to fire it. In the video, he didn't cock the gun, which meant he either intended to shoot someone or is an idiot. The prosecution in the case is stupid for not pointing that out.

I must say, that's an absolutely insane policy.  When you have a legitimate need to exercise deadly force, you can't have anything in your way of discharging your firearm.  A half-second delay needed to cock a bullet in the chamber can be the difference between life and death.

I wonder if that fact wasn't used by the prosecution because perhaps that policy is one that is discreetly ignored by California law enforcement, and to bring it up to convict the officer here would raise hell in a wider sense.

When I worked the road, I always had a round in the chamber. Nothing was going to get in the way of me and firing off a round if someone was going to get stupid. This is the only area I can sympathize with the BART cop. He was scared, and shit I would be too.

[Boogie]

You're all just mad, because I said I'm not sorry someone's dead. Wah.

I am mildly incensed because you are dismissing the death of a human being.  I do not take that lightly.

I'll be honest, if Grant were alive, due to his background, his criminal history, I would no doubt use the phrase "fucking shitrat" to describe him.  

Doesn't mean he deserved to be shot in the back.  

You're an MP, was that right, rodi?

[Smooth Groove]

However in CA the handgun permit and rules for cops have one major similarity: You're not to have a bullet in the chamber unless you intend to fire it. In the video, he didn't cock the gun, which meant he either intended to shoot someone or is an idiot. The prosecution in the case is stupid for not pointing that out.

I must say, that's an absolutely insane policy.  When you have a legitimate need to exercise deadly force, you can't have anything in your way of discharging your firearm.  A half-second delay needed to cock a bullet in the chamber can be the difference between life and death.

I wonder if that fact wasn't used by the prosecution because perhaps that policy is one that is discreetly ignored by California law enforcement, and to bring it up to convict the officer here would raise hell in a wider sense.

When I worked the road, I always had a round in the chamber. Nothing was going to get in the way of me and firing off a round if someone was going to get stupid. This is the only area I can sympathize with the BART cop. He was scared, and shit I would be too.

Racist!