The Official Psychoanalysis GAF Thread

[Tasty]

You can execute on more than design, I'm not sure how to make that clearer. You can execute a daring new concept roughly, but it could still be executed better than if it wasn't executed at all. Which is what I meant by saying ideas are worthless.

Saying ideas are worthless is literally the dumbest declarative statement I've read in a long time.

I should amend my previous post to the one from the last page: "Ideas are worthless next to execution."

Ideas that are copied are usually not executed as well. And those that are merely give consumers more choice. It's how game design has evolved. Everything is a knockoff of something in some way.

[Mupepe]

There's got to be a newfeed worthy quote in here somewhere

[Steve Contra]

There's got to be a newfeed worthy quote in here somewhere

"Andrex is dumb"

Although that's not really news.

[Shadow Mod]

I should amend my previous post to the one from the last page: "Ideas are worthless next to execution."

Ideas that are copied are usually not executed as well. And those that are merely give consumers more choice. It's how game design has evolved. Everything is a knockoff of something in some way.

That amendment doesn't help either where the fuck do you think concepts and design even comes from? Ideas.

[Tasty]

TBH it sounds like you just want ur game nooz and you want it NOW, rather than any legitimate justifying rationale backed up by data.

He basically just thinks that corporations would be better if they ran like open source software projects.

It would be nice, at least. But don't take that to mean I don't think they shouldn't make money.

And it's dumb, case closed.

AAA++++ post, would read again.

[Tasty]

I should amend my previous post to the one from the last page: "Ideas are worthless next to execution."

Ideas that are copied are usually not executed as well. And those that are merely give consumers more choice. It's how game design has evolved. Everything is a knockoff of something in some way.

That amendment doesn't help either where the fuck do you think concepts and design even comes from? Ideas.

And what are they worth? Nothing (*next to execution.)

I had the idea for Ouya years ago. In fact, it was an even better idea than theirs. Guess how much that's made me so far? The answer might surprise you.

[Flannel Boy]

I had the idea for Ouya years ago. In fact, it was an even better idea than theirs. Guess how much that's made me so far? The answer might surprise you.

stop trying to get on the newsfeed.

[Shadow Mod]

And what are they worth? Nothing (*next to execution.)

I had the idea for Ouya years ago. In fact, it was an even better idea than theirs. Guess how much that's made me so far? The answer might surprise you.

I guess you don't know about people who get hired just to generate ideas or what marketing/advertising is all about.

[demi]

HE THINKS BUSINESSES SHOULD BE OPEN SOURCE

[Tasty]

Saying ideas are worth a lot, or more than execution, is a nice sentiment since it makes people feel better about themselves and their wasted, unproductful lives. Personally, my ideas dying with me is one of my larger fears.

Your beliefs are irrelevant. Demonstrate that transparency is objectively better for investors and shareholders in the games industry using studies or data  or throw yourself in the bushes, because you're just answering shit with one liners.

The entire point of the conversation is that I'm intensely unapologetic for corporations and shareholders, so why would I do that?

And what are they worth? Nothing (*next to execution.)

I had the idea for Ouya years ago. In fact, it was an even better idea than theirs. Guess how much that's made me so far? The answer might surprise you.

I guess you don't know about people who get hired just to generate ideas or what marketing/advertising is all about.

Marketing is a form of execution. Those who execute it better have an advantage.

And hiring all the idea people in the world is just going to make you that much poorer if you never do anything with them.

[Tasty]

HE THINKS BUSINESSES SHOULD BE OPEN SOURCE

No. I think such a thing would be interesting, but I really just want more transparency in the game industry right now. Have to start small, you see.

[Shadow Mod]

Marketing is a form of execution. Those who execute it better have an advantage.

And hiring all the idea people in the world is just going to make you that much poorer if you never do anything with them.

Jesus christ. You really think everyone in a firm is able to execute their ideas? What the fuck would be the point. Do you think every coder/designer is an ideas man/woman?

[DCharlieJP]

You asked for laws.  Be a public corporation and just start letting employees announce whatever they want whenever they want and see how the SEC treats you.

Are you saying investors should find things out a long time after employees? Because I'm having difficulty understanding how you're connecting this with your 8K link.

There are many situations where large deals or large positions movements are going to go down for a single entity/company that a handful of people need to know about as the is usually work involved  - if I went and tweeted about the slightest of details then its possible that markets/stocks/companies can be affected - this isn't just slapped wrist territory : this is jail time territory.

There's a few other posters her who are likely routinely under NDAs that would make you piss out your kidney

[Steve Contra]

Saying ideas are worth a lot, or more than execution, is a nice sentiment since it makes people feel better about themselves and their wasted, unproductful lives. Personally, my ideas dying with me is one of my larger fears.

Your beliefs are irrelevant. Demonstrate that transparency is objectively better for investors and shareholders in the games industry using studies or data  or throw yourself in the bushes, because you're just answering shit with one liners.

The entire point of the conversation is that I'm intensely unapologetic for corporations and shareholders, so why would I do that?

And?  You said NDAs were outdated for corporations to use.  And now you say corporations are irrelevant to that?  So which is it, NDAs are outdated for corporations (which you most certainly haven't demonstrated) or that you simply don't like them and what corporations do to protect against fraud/legal action/trade secrets being leaked is not important.  Because you're making 2 separate arguments here.

[Steve Youngblood]

I had the idea for Ouya years ago. In fact, it was an even better idea than theirs. Guess how much that's made me so far? The answer might surprise you.

It's important to understand a distinction, here. I understand the gist of what you're getting at, but I think you are being very obtuse in making your point. Yes, broad, non-specific ideas aren't worth much. What is of worth are very specific ideas that also have a plausible roadmap as to how to implement that idea and the gumption to make a stab at seeing it through. What was your idea that was better than their's? To make an android-based games console?

That doesn't really illustrate how meaningless ideas are. It feels like we're talking about examples like me asserting that, after watching James Cameron's Titanic again, I've got an idea for my own film that apes that except it's set on the Hindenburg, and I hope to make even more money than Titanic! Yes, this idea is pretty worthless, I agree.

[Tasty]

Marketing is a form of execution. Those who execute it better have an advantage.

And hiring all the idea people in the world is just going to make you that much poorer if you never do anything with them.

Jesus christ. You really think everyone in a firm is able to execute their ideas? What the fuck would be the point. Do you think every coder/designer is an ideas man/woman?

Not necessarily, but I know there's more of them and they're compensated better than the "idea guys."

In addition, the best executions have come from those who are.

What was Bill Gates/Microsoft's big innovation? What made them the most successful company in the world in a such a short time?

Well, their first success came from swindling IBM into using their nonexistent-at-the-time OS. But what made them the most money was Windows.

Did they invent WIMP? No. They took it from Apple, and they didn't even invent it. Thank Xerox for that.

Was the iPhone the first smartphone? I can go on.

[StealthFan]

OPA really laid into Stallion about his water. It really is a stupid fucking idea though.

EDIT: There is a dude named James Woods running around there ;\ Ain't me....

[Shadow Mod]

Marketing is a form of execution. Those who execute it better have an advantage.

And hiring all the idea people in the world is just going to make you that much poorer if you never do anything with them.

Jesus christ. You really think everyone in a firm is able to execute their ideas? What the fuck would be the point. Do you think every coder/designer is an ideas man/woman?

Not necessarily, but I know there's more of them and they're compensated better than the "idea guys."

In addition, the best executions have come from those who are.

What was Bill Gates/Microsoft's big innovation? What made them the most successful company in the world in a such a short time?

Well, their first success came from swindling IBM into using their nonexistent-at-the-time OS. But what made them the most money was Windows.

Did they invent WIMP? No. They took it from Apple, and they didn't even invent it. Thank Xerox for that.

Was the iPhone the first smartphone?

By bringing up Gates and Jobs you merely proved my point about ideas men.

[Great Rumbler]

Starting from a good idea generally results in a better end product, so I guess ideas are good after all?

[Flannel Boy]

Personally, my ideas dying with me is one of my larger fears.

My ideas dying with me is also one of my biggest fears because it means I died.

If your ideas are any good, flesh them out so you can copyright or patent them--or just upload them to the internet.

[Steve Contra]

Starting from a good idea generally results in a better end product, so I guess ideas are good after all?

"I'm going to make a comedy about 2 gay guys that run a pizza shop in Little Italy"

- James Cameron, right before making a romance set aboard the Titanic

[Verdigris Murder]

An augmented reality rape iOS.

It would sell buckets.

[Tasty]

I had the idea for Ouya years ago. In fact, it was an even better idea than theirs. Guess how much that's made me so far? The answer might surprise you.

It's important to understand a distinction, here. I understand the gist of what you're getting at, but I think you are being very obtuse in making your point. Yes, broad, non-specific ideas aren't worth much. What is of worth are very specific ideas that also have a plausible roadmap as to how to implement that idea and the gumption to make a stab at seeing it through. What was your idea that was better than their's? To make an android-based games console?

That doesn't really illustrate how meaningless ideas are. It feels like we're talking about examples like me asserting that, after watching James Cameron's Titanic again, I've got an idea for my own film that apes that except it's set on the Hindenburg, and I hope to make even more money than Titanic! Yes, this idea is pretty worthless, I agree.

Well, right. I guess specifically, the core of what I mean, and how it relates to NDAs, is that copied ideas are worthless, so they're not worth the baggage of the whole NDA concept. (Since I brought up the WIMP example, it wasn't that Windows had a knockoff Mac GUI that made it successful, but Gates' business execution, which Apple couldn't (or wouldn't) copy.)

Smaller innovations are probably worth protecting, but I would still give the edge to their execution rather than the pure idea.

[Verdigris Murder]

Or maybe someone could make some decent children's bath toys. There's money in that.

Because they are mostly fucking awful.

[Tasty]

By bringing up Gates and Jobs you merely proved my point about ideas men.

In what way? They didn't just sit around thinking, "man, if only I could program and design..."

[Great Rumbler]

By bringing up Gates and Jobs you merely proved my point about ideas men.

In what way? They didn't just sit around thinking, "man, if only I could program and design..."

But they did know a good idea when they saw it. Which is how they were able to become billionaires.

[Shadow Mod]

By bringing up Gates and Jobs you merely proved my point about ideas men.

In what way? They didn't just sit around thinking, "man, if only I could program and design..."

What do you think they did with their products? They had teams to develop their ideas. Are you really this fucking dense?

[Mupepe]

Smaller innovations are probably worth protecting, but I would still give the edge to their execution rather than the pure idea.

I think Andrex is confusing the following:

"Damn it would be sweet if I could build a solar panel that extracted more energy from the sun"

with

"Damn, I have an idea how to build a solar panel that extracts more energy from the sun.  We just need to put ____ with _____ and connect it to _____" and so on...

No one is trying to protect the first line with an NDA because everyone already has that idea.  But why the hell wouldn't you want to keep people's mouth shut about the second idea?

[DCharlieJP]

Okay - let's say , as an example, that I know MS has a certain something up their sleeve which would be a huge deciding factor in the next gen war.

Under Andrextopia - MS would have to give this idea away thus potentially throwing away a competitive advantage?

There are no words here!

What would have happened if Nintendo announced what waggle was going to be when they first came up with the idea? Given MS were in the process of trying to acquire Nintendo at that time, do you think the no longer unique wii would have then lead to them being MS Xbox team? In your alternate universe , your favorite company would be toast

Also Nintendo have the scariest NDAs outside of big scary industries

[Mupepe]

How do you confuse the most obvious fucking thing in the world

Beats me.  But I'm guessing it has something to do with not thinking this whole thing through and now being too arrogant to admit that he was wrong.

[Steve Contra]

Fuck, isn't there that story about Nintendo testers having to test the analog stick under cover (pun intended).  What if they had just given that away?

[Tasty]

But they did know a good idea when they saw it. Which is how they were able to become billionaires.

That goes back to the what I said: what were those ideas doing before Gates and Jobs found them? Nothing for anybody.

What do you think they did with their products? They had teams to develop their ideas. Are you really this fucking dense?

Develop. Execute.

I think Andrex is confusing the following:

"Damn it would be sweet if I could build a solar panel that extracted more energy from the sun"

with

"Damn, I have an idea how to build a solar panel that extracts more energy from the sun.  We just need to put ____ with _____ and connect it to _____" and so on...

No one is trying to protect the first line with an NDA because everyone already has that idea.  But why the hell wouldn't you want to keep people's mouth shut about the second idea?

I'm not confusing it but I think the discussion got derailed a little with Devo. A little too abstract.

As for the second example, it isn't my place to worry about whether the process would be copied. If it was my company, I would focus on finishing the process as well and as quickly as possible. Since it's my process, I would still always have an edge on someone seeking to knock it off.

[Great Rumbler]

Smaller innovations are probably worth protecting, but I would still give the edge to their execution rather than the pure idea.

I think Andrex is confusing the following:

"Damn it would be sweet if I could build a solar panel that extracted more energy from the sun"

with

"Damn, I have an idea how to build a solar panel that extracts more energy from the sun.  We just need to put ____ with _____ and connect it to _____" and so on...

No one is trying to protect the first line with an NDA because everyone already has that idea.  But why the hell wouldn't you want to keep people's mouth shut about the second idea?

He also using this argument to downplay the importance of good ideas:

"I'm a regularly guy and I had a great idea for a solar panel but I don't have the money or the technical experience to execute it."

vs.

"I'm an engineer at a major company, so I will build an awesome solar panel."

Yes, execution matters in this stilted comparison, largely because one person is actually in a situation where they can execute and the other isn't. Sure, execution in that situation matters a lot. But that discounts this situation:

"I'm an engineer at a major company and I have just been handed two ideas for a solar panel: one is really good and the other is terrible."

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

[Shadow Mod]

I'd just like to know what he thinks ad majors do because many of them are not taught execution.

[Tasty]

Okay - let's say , as an example, that I know MS has a certain something up their sleeve which would be a huge deciding factor in the next gen war.

Under Andrextopia - MS would have to give this idea away thus potentially throwing away a competitive advantage?

What is the competitive advantage to keeping it a secret. Tell me.

[Huff]

Fucking leper Andrex already. And then help him sign up for the local community college

[Tasty]

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

I said "next to execution," so both ideas being equal, execution matters vastly more than the idea itself.

[Mupepe]

I'm not confusing it but I think the discussion got derailed a little with Devo. A little too abstract.

As for the second example, it isn't my place to worry about whether the process would be copied. If it was my company, I would focus on finishing the process as well and as quickly as possible. Since it's my process, I would still always have an edge on someone seeking to knock it off.

You really think a larger company with larger resources wouldn't be able to out maneuver you with specifics??  Yeah, you're just naive.  Even if your product is better they can probably beat you to the market and outstrip your mindshare.

[Tasty]

Fuck, isn't there that story about Nintendo testers having to test the analog stick under cover (pun intended).  What if they had just given that away?

Then Sony would have copied it!

It's a good thing only Nintendo controllers have analog sticks. Them keeping it in the dark worked out great!

[DCharlieJP]

Okay - let's say , as an example, that I know MS has a certain something up their sleeve which would be a huge deciding factor in the next gen war.

Under Andrextopia - MS would have to give this idea away thus potentially throwing away a competitive e
advantage?

What is the competitive advantage to keeping it a secret. Tell me.

.... You cannot be seriously this stupid, right?

[Great Rumbler]

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

I said "next to execution," so both ideas being equal, execution matters vastly more than the idea itself.

And that can be easily turned on its head. Take two companies that are exactly the same. Same level of budget, same level of employee skill. Give one the great idea and one the bad idea, see where that gets you.

[Mupepe]

Andrex thinks the Wii was a success for its game library, not the waggle gimmick.

[Tasty]

I'm not confusing it but I think the discussion got derailed a little with Devo. A little too abstract.

As for the second example, it isn't my place to worry about whether the process would be copied. If it was my company, I would focus on finishing the process as well and as quickly as possible. Since it's my process, I would still always have an edge on someone seeking to knock it off.

You really think a larger company with larger resources wouldn't be able to out maneuver you with specifics??  Yeah, you're just naive.  Even if your product is better they can probably beat you to the market and outstrip your mindshare.

Larger companies are usually not able to move as fastly as smaller ones. MySpace could have crushed Facebook, but were too slow.

Counting on that happening is foolish, but I think in the gaming industry specifically, for all the possible permutations I can imagine, tossing NDAs would be a net gain and few if any companies would really lose anything.

[Shadow Mod]

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

I said "next to execution," so both ideas being equal, execution matters vastly more than the idea itself.

And that can be easily turned on its head. Take two companies that are exactly the same. Same level of budget, same level of employee skill. Give one the great idea and one the bad idea, see where that gets you.

It's so obvious but here we are.

[Steve Contra]

Fuck, isn't there that story about Nintendo testers having to test the analog stick under cover (pun intended).  What if they had just given that away?

Then Sony would have copied it!

It's a good thing only Nintendo controllers have analog sticks. Them keeping it in the dark worked out great!

I assume you don't know about competitive advantage?  Of course revolutionary tech gets copied, but it's when it gets copied that matters.

[Tasty]

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

I said "next to execution," so both ideas being equal, execution matters vastly more than the idea itself.

And that can be easily turned on its head. Take two companies that are exactly the same. Same level of budget, same level of employee skill. Give one the great idea and one the bad idea, see where that gets you.

But that isn't what I said. Of course a hypothesis doesn't hold up if you change the controlled variable.

[Tasty]

Fuck, isn't there that story about Nintendo testers having to test the analog stick under cover (pun intended).  What if they had just given that away?

Then Sony would have copied it!

It's a good thing only Nintendo controllers have analog sticks. Them keeping it in the dark worked out great!

I assume you don't know about competitive advantage?  Of course revolutionary tech gets copied, but it's when it gets copied that matters.

So you're saying it's good for consumers that PS1 players had to wait longer to get analog sticks?

[Shadow Mod]

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

I said "next to execution," so both ideas being equal, execution matters vastly more than the idea itself.

And that can be easily turned on its head. Take two companies that are exactly the same. Same level of budget, same level of employee skill. Give one the great idea and one the bad idea, see where that gets you.

But that isn't what I said. Of course a hypothesis doesn't hold up if you change the controlled variable.

You said ideas are worthless, then next to execution they're worthless. You're pulling a bruiserbear right now.

[Tasty]

Okay - let's say , as an example, that I know MS has a certain something up their sleeve which would be a huge deciding factor in the next gen war.

Under Andrextopia - MS would have to give this idea away thus potentially throwing away a competitive e
advantage?

What is the competitive advantage to keeping it a secret. Tell me.

.... You cannot be seriously this stupid, right?

I want to know what you think.

[Great Rumbler]

Fuck, isn't there that story about Nintendo testers having to test the analog stick under cover (pun intended).  What if they had just given that away?

It's a good thing only Nintendo controllers have analog sticks. Them keeping it in the dark worked out great!

It did, yes. Nintendo got a nearly a year and half with their analog stick on the market before Sony came out with their version.

[Steve Contra]

And one more thing, about a year ago a competitor tipped their hat to me unknowingly.  In a blog post ( ) it led to me quickly pulling together some cash and jumping on what they had before they did.

[Tasty]

You said ideas are worthless, then next to execution they're worthless. You're pulling a bruiserbear right now.

Actually, when I first brought it up, I said they're worthless next to execution. Then I misspoke the second time I was talking about it, and amended my statement.

To wit:

Ideas are worthless next to execution.

I should amend my previous post to the one from the last page: "Ideas are worthless next to execution."

Ideas that are copied are usually not executed as well. And those that are merely give consumers more choice. It's how game design has evolved. Everything is a knockoff of something in some way.

[Shaka Khan]

In a true Himu fashion, allow me to break the tension with a moist fart...

 Mmm such a relief. Now everyone try it.

[Steve Contra]

Fuck, isn't there that story about Nintendo testers having to test the analog stick under cover (pun intended).  What if they had just given that away?

Then Sony would have copied it!

It's a good thing only Nintendo controllers have analog sticks. Them keeping it in the dark worked out great!

I assume you don't know about competitive advantage?  Of course revolutionary tech gets copied, but it's when it gets copied that matters.

So you're saying it's good for consumers that PS1 players had to wait longer to get analog sticks?

So how are NDAs an outdated concept again?  You're arguing two separate things here, and they are mutually exclusive.

[FStop7]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=506792

hey guys let's all get hung up on an adjective rather than discuss the issue at hand y'all

[Tasty]

So how are NDAs an outdated concept again?  You're arguing two separate things here, and they are mutually exclusive.

The thrust of my point is that the games industry should be more transparent, and that while not actively doing any harm, consumers would benefit from them being more open with their processes.

[Great Rumbler]

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

I said "next to execution," so both ideas being equal, execution matters vastly more than the idea itself.

And that can be easily turned on its head. Take two companies that are exactly the same. Same level of budget, same level of employee skill. Give one the great idea and one the bad idea, see where that gets you.

But that isn't what I said. Of course a hypothesis doesn't hold up if you change the controlled variable.

Exactly, your hypothesis only works in a controlled environment.

[Shadow Mod]

You said ideas are worthless, then next to execution they're worthless. You're pulling a bruiserbear right now.

Actually, when I first brought it up, I said they're worthless next to execution. Then I misspoke the second time I was talking about it, and amended my statement.

To wit:

Ideas are worthless next to execution.

I should amend my previous post to the one from the last page: "Ideas are worthless next to execution."

Ideas that are copied are usually not executed as well. And those that are merely give consumers more choice. It's how game design has evolved. Everything is a knockoff of something in some way.

Either way it's a stupid statement because ideas are the foundation upon which everything rests. You'd have been better off saying bad ideas are worthless. Good ideas are never worthless hence why they get stolen.

[Tasty]

Exactly, your hypothesis only works in a controlled environment.

Alright. Then I'll admit I'm not being pragmatic about some of it. But I still believe in the overall idea.

Either way

Who's the dense one now?

Also- If a stolen good idea is executed better than the original, then it's a net gain for me as a consumer. Speaking in games industry terms.

[Steve Contra]

So how are NDAs an outdated concept again?  You're arguing two separate things here, and they are mutually exclusive.

The thrust of my point is that the games industry should be more transparent, and that while not actively doing any harm, consumers would benefit from them being more open with their processes.

And yet you haven't shown anything close to that.  Weird.