Author Topic: All off the OoT 3DS wagon? (Read 21509 times)

EmCeeGrammar · « **Reply #180 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:38:02 PM »

Quote from: Great Rumbler on January 31, 2011, 08:34:28 PM

Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 08:29:05 PM
see also: Metroid Other M vs. Super Metroid

People don't back on Other M because it has a story, they bag on it because the story is PUTRID.

It could never have been good.
I think this is some impasse which partly explains why I'm so fond of Nintendo. I'm kinda mixed on Zelda of course but most Nintendo franchises have silent protagonists and a huge deemphasis on plot.

Van Cruncheon · « **Reply #181 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:38:29 PM »

i actually agree with emceegrammar. story gets in the way more often than not. i am happy solving a dungeon and killing a boss just cuz.

Great Rumbler · « **Reply #182 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:38:58 PM »

Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 08:38:02 PM

Quote from: Great Rumbler on January 31, 2011, 08:34:28 PM
Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 08:29:05 PM
see also: Metroid Other M vs. Super Metroid

People don't back on Other M because it has a story, they bag on it because the story is PUTRID.

It could never have been good.

Well, not turning Samus into a whiny, 12-year-old girl would have been a nice place to start.

EmCeeGrammar · « **Reply #183 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:39:11 PM »

NNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Himu · « **Reply #184 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:39:28 PM »

Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 08:29:05 PM

see also: Metroid Other M vs. Super Metroid

Hence circumstantial.

Some games benefit from light storytelling, some benefit from a bit of storytelling, some from a quite a bit of storytelling.

This does not mean that all games should have story or that all games would benefit from no story at all.

It is wholly dependent on its use.

Himu · « **Reply #185 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:41:45 PM »

Quote from: Van Cruncheon on January 31, 2011, 08:38:29 PM

i actually agree with emceegrammar. story gets in the way more often than not. i am happy solving a dungeon and killing a boss just cuz.

Normally I would agree, but it depends on the genre and sometimes even game.

Some rpgs I don't give a fuck and just wanna slaughter fuckers with my atk stat.

Some, the world is so interesting I'd like to know more.

I mean, take Tactics Ogre or Final Fantasy Tactics. I wouldn't find either game nearly as fun without the story because then, it's just a bunch of random chess battles. But the story transforms them into something more than that. That doesn't mean I'm going to play them solely for the story, but the story adds to the larger whole, kinda like the cherry on top of a delicious ice cream sundae.

Great Rumbler · « **Reply #186 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:44:41 PM »

Quote from: Van Cruncheon on January 31, 2011, 08:38:29 PM

i actually agree with emceegrammar. story gets in the way more often than not. i am happy solving a dungeon and killing a boss just cuz.

Some games have more story than they need, some games don't have enough. Some games have absolutely horrible characters and cutscenes, some have really good characters and cutscenes. It's kind of ridiculous to just make some blanket statement about gaming as a whole. RPGs thrive on story, for the most part. Cutting out all the story from Planetscape: Torment would leave you with a simplistic battle system and that's about it [there's a reason Icewind Dale gets lost behind every other Black Isle/early Bioware game]. But shoving story and cutscenes into a bullethell game would be a terrible idea, because they're about simple arcade action and a fast pace.

Basically, there's a balance going on in a lot of games. Too much story bogs everything down [particularly is the story isn't very good], but too little story [in a lot of games] and it starts to feel sparse and bare. As far as non-RPGs go, I think Half Life 2 probably has one of the best means of conveying the story and that it by the things you hear, see, and do that provide you with information about who everyone is and what's going on. It doesn't pull you out of the game for lengthy cutscenes and it doesn't try to feed you too much exposition at once.

Story has its place in games, is what I'm saying.

EmCeeGrammar · « **Reply #187 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:44:42 PM »

How would a good game SUFFER if I removed all of its cutscenes, dialouge, and/or narrative? A game stands on its principles of play first and foremost. Believe it or not I've had my fair share of systems, I've played more than enough games to come to this conclusion. It really was the difference between Katamari Damacy and GTA San Andreas for me. One didn't take itself seriously and charmed me with its goofy aesthetics and simple mechanisms. The other was CJ's got problems I don't really care about. How long until dicking around in faux-cali isn't fun anymore?

EmCeeGrammar · « **Reply #188 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:46:05 PM »

And wtf is wrong with a series of random chess battles?!? I skip all the text in ffta2 and the advance wars games. STILL AWESOME.

Himu · « **Reply #189 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:46:06 PM »

I like the way Nintendo handles the story in some of their games like Zelda: MM. They have the perfect balance. Not a lot of cutscenes, but enough dialogue to savor and tell the story mostly through symbolism and theme, more so than shitty hubris and pathos and melodrama that a lot of games fall into.

Van Cruncheon · « **Reply #190 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:46:44 PM »

it has a place in games as DECORATION (and preferably marginal decoration at that), giving a cohesive theme to the art direction and level design. explicit storytelling can die, though, and i wouldn't cry.

Great Rumbler · « **Reply #191 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:47:09 PM »

Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 08:44:42 PM

How would a good game SUFFER if I removed all of its cutscenes, dialouge, and/or narrative? A game stands on its principles of play first and foremost.

Well, see, this implies that story ISN'T part of a particular game's principles, and I would argue that for a number of games story IS the foundation [or at least a part of it].

Quote

It really was the difference between Katamari Damacy and GTA San Andreas for me.

So, that's the REAL difference, huh?

EmCeeGrammar · « **Reply #192 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:49:00 PM »

Quote from: Oscar the Grouch on January 31, 2011, 08:48:24 PM

I had trouble articulating the differences between GTA and KD until that brave poet emceegrammr found a way

PICK A SIDE!

edit: And of course I realise there are many differences!

Himu · « **Reply #193 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:49:31 PM »

Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 08:46:05 PM

And wtf is wrong with a series of random chess battles?!? I skip all the text in ffta2 and the advance wars games. STILL AWESOME.

I dunno. Killing the dark knight dude in FFT wouldn't be nearly as fun without holding a grudge for his earlier betrayal. Or fighting that preppy fucker after being a total dick. It wouldn't be the same game or the same experience. But then I LIKE FFT's story (for the most part), I don't think I could say the same for FFTA2's considering FFTA's is absolutely awful.

EmCeeGrammar · « **Reply #194 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:51:18 PM »

I don't have emotional attachments to sprites and plastic looking 3d models. I guess that's why I can't appreciate the intricacies of game plot :'(

Himu · « **Reply #195 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:51:40 PM »

Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 08:44:42 PM

How would a good game SUFFER if I removed all of its cutscenes, dialouge, and/or narrative? A game stands on its principles of play first and foremost. Believe it or not I've had my fair share of systems, I've played more than enough games to come to this conclusion. It really was the difference between Katamari Damacy and GTA San Andreas for me. One didn't take itself seriously and charmed me with its goofy aesthetics and simple mechanisms. The other was CJ's got problems I don't really care about. How long until dicking around in faux-cali isn't fun anymore?

What about games like Silent Hill, Day of the Tentacle or Grim Fandango?

EmCeeGrammar · « **Reply #196 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:53:27 PM »

More than anything else you are highlighting why the point and click adventure genre is terrible and has subsequently died. Silent Hill doesn't certainly need cutscenes to be creepy as fuck.

Great Rumbler · « **Reply #197 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:54:26 PM »

Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 08:51:18 PM

I don't have emotional attachments to sprites and plastic looking 3d models. I guess that's why I can't appreciate the intricacies of game plot :'(

You DO realize that the people in movies are just actors, right?

And RoF wouldn't be nearly as much fun without the ridiculous cutscenes:

[youtube=560,345]tVibNKrp8sQ[/youtube]

Quote

More than anything else you are highlighting why the point and click adventure genre is terrible and has subsequently died.

If there's one thing the adventure genre isn't, it's dead. It just happens to be that LucasArts won't make them anymore and Sierra kicked the bucket years ago.

cool breeze · « **Reply #198 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:55:03 PM »

All a Zelda game needs for story is a reason to go adventuring. MM and LA were different in a good way, but retained the same brevity as other Zelda games. And both those games started with Link already adventuring. That's why these games are fun. I don't care if I'm saving the princess and fighting some arab pig thing again. C'mon son toss my blade I'm gonna pump this likelike UNGGGH

Himu · « **Reply #199 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:58:31 PM »

Quote from: Linkzg on January 31, 2011, 08:55:03 PM

All a Zelda game needs for story is a reason to go adventuring. MM and LA were different in a good way, but retained the same brevity as other Zelda games. And both those games started with Link already adventuring. That's why these games are fun. I don't care if I'm saving the princess and fighting some arab pig thing again. C'mon son toss my blade I'm gonna pump this likelike UNGGGH

Yeah, ultimately I play Zelda for adventure and sense of thrill of exploration. Doesn't mean I can't appreciate some reasons to adventure though.

naff · « **Reply #200 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:05:01 PM »

Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 08:08:21 PM

I'd say the people disillusioned with thinking story has any place in a good videogame....

edit: Oh wait, need to be more condescending um
$:-\$ :stfu

I'm not the one making sweeping statements like,

Quote

narrative has no place in videogames

Obviously I don't play games for a literature worthy story and play many games without narrative and play some games which I wish didn't have a narrative but simply saying narrative has no place in any game is ridiculous. A games flexibility makes for interesting opportunities for exposition relative to other mediums and people should give it's shortcomings some slack regarding mediums youth. But yeah, narrative encompasses a lot, even very basic things like the story of your little paddle in shatter escaping it's prison, implied visually yet it still offers something more to the player on top of the gameplay to give a sense of purpose and progression through the game, a flippant yet nice touch and in my opinion it's better off for it, again it's the same in L4D2, very little traditional narrative but what's there is still a nice touch like the character exposition through their speech. I think more traditional narratives certainly have their place in certain games/genres too.

Himu · « **Reply #201 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:06:36 PM »

Yeah, seriously. Even dialogue adds to stuff like TF2 and L4D2.

It's mind boggling, that statement.

Van Cruncheon · « **Reply #202 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:10:06 PM »

dialogue is not narrrative

EmCeeGrammar · « **Reply #203 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:11:13 PM »

Whatever guys I need a smoke break.

Van Cruncheon · « **Reply #204 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:12:00 PM »

Quote from: Wrath2X on January 31, 2011, 08:56:46 PM

Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 05:11:44 PM
The only zelda games I want to play again are Phantom Hourglass and Link's Awakening.

Your opinion is now invalid.

cosign. you can't praise mechanics uber alles then laud phantom fucking hourglass, a game so bad even gameloft would feel ashamed to release it

cool breeze · « **Reply #205 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:12:43 PM »

I would just like to add that I'm not against story or anything in games, I just believe those who work on Zelda games are incapable of it. Spirit Tracks was embarrassing animu shit and Zelda literally uguu'd on multiple occasions. I would have tossed my DS but I was in a passing out from the four billion hour long train ride.

I speak as someone who considers the Zelda games to be his favorite games.

and Super Mario Sunshine with Bowser telling his son that he wasn't Peach's rape baby. Come on!

EmCeeGrammar · « **Reply #206 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:13:27 PM »

Quote from: Oscar the Grouch on January 31, 2011, 09:09:48 PM

Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 08:51:18 PM
I don't have emotional attachments to sprites and plastic looking 3d models. I guess that's why I can't appreciate the intricacies of game plot :'(

The average human being can display empathy and show emotional response to simple geometric shapes, let alone objects with the appearance of a human. Not to pick on you for your disability, but the inability to properly empathize is often seen in people suffering from autism-spectrum disorders and may point to the rationale behind your preferences here.

Dude, I'm way ahead of you on that one. It's something I've suspected for a long time but can't confirm.

Oblivion · « **Reply #207 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:14:15 PM »

The massive hard on that people have for LA is really baffling to me some times. Not because it's a bad game or anything, but because for some strange reason, it's seen as some shining example of how to make a Zelda game feel less stale. But the only distinguishing feature it has from say, LttP is the story. The gameplay, for all intents and purposes is IDENTICAL. At least when people mention something like MM, it had an interesting new gameplay mechanic. LA has absolutely no innovating features whatsoever.

Now, mind you, that's perfectly fine. If you're into story over gameplay, more power to ya. But that's all it is, story. Other than that, LA is LttP/the Oracles for lightweights.

Also, this makes Emcee's comments all the more confusing.

Himu · « **Reply #208 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:14:36 PM »

I thought Wind Waker and Majora's Mask were solid on the story front. The others....not so much. I definitely doubt Nintendo of today lacks the desire, creativity and initiative to make another Majora's Mask.

Himu · « **Reply #209 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:16:36 PM »

LttP has a gameplay > story focus, unlike LA. In LttP you can do many dungeons in any fucking order you want. Such an amazing game.

Himu · « **Reply #210 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:19:54 PM »

Quote from: Wrath2X on January 31, 2011, 09:17:19 PM

Ocarina Of Time's story was good, it wasn't original but it was done well.

See, I kinda agree, but OoT is a personal classic example of the tried and true Zelda formula that I want to see an end of. It's so...simplistic. In MM and WW, you are often given reasons and goals and motivations, which feel a lot more interesting than simply collecting even more medallions to kill Ganon...AGAIN. I guess you could say I feel Oscar on this, except I have no issues with the gameplay because very often the gameplay in 3d Zelda's is designed AROUND the story. So if you had a more interesting story, I'm sure we'd have less stale gameplay.

Oblivion · « **Reply #211 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:23:14 PM »

Himu, you can have meaningful motivations and intimate relationships while still retaining classic Zelda staples like Ganon. They're not mutually exclusive. Unless one simply doesn't want Ganon, then that's another issue.

Himu · « **Reply #212 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:26:12 PM »

You're right. It's just that we've seen him so much I just want less of him.

naff · « **Reply #213 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:30:46 PM »

Quote from: Van Cruncheon on January 31, 2011, 09:10:06 PM

dialogue is not narrrative

Dialogue in the case of L4D forms a part of the narrative through character exposition, along with the environments, your objective, the characters roles etc

Diunx · « **Reply #214 on:** January 31, 2011, 09:46:50 PM »

A zelda game with an awesome story? I must have missed that one.

iconoclast · « **Reply #215 on:** January 31, 2011, 10:06:39 PM »

The worst thing about video game stories is when it starts invading genres where it doesn't belong. WHY do I have to skip through a bunch of dialogue while my group of lolis sit at a campfire in Death Smiles? At least you can just press start and skip it completely in DS2.

That said, I think traditional RPGs would be borderline worthless if they didn't focus on story and characters. SRPGs don't really need stories though. They'd be boring as fuck, but at least every map could stand on its own.

Van Cruncheon · « **Reply #216 on:** January 31, 2011, 10:17:43 PM »

Quote from: quietID on January 31, 2011, 09:30:46 PM

Quote from: Van Cruncheon on January 31, 2011, 09:10:06 PM
dialogue is not narrrative

Dialogue in the case of L4D forms a part of the narrative through character exposition, along with the environments, your objective, the characters roles etc

not saying it CAN'T contribute to or even define narrative, derp. just that it isn't necessarily narrative, either.

Oblivion · « **Reply #217 on:** January 31, 2011, 10:33:20 PM »

Why isn't it considered pandering with games like PH and ST?

cool breeze · « **Reply #218 on:** January 31, 2011, 10:40:26 PM »

Phantom Hourglass was "Pirates of the Caribbean was cool, let's rip off Jack Sparrow and have him team up with Link."
Spirit Tracks was "People like train games and bad anime. Let's make our entire game trains and bad anime."

maybe not to fans of fun and video games, but they're pandering to a certain group with those games. I dunno.

and uh, OoT is like my favorite game but it is straight up LTTP in 3D. And Twilight Princess was LTTP in slightly better 3D. And OoT 3DS is somewhere in the middle of that.

Diunx · « **Reply #219 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:07:14 PM »

Trains are popular in japan?

cool breeze · « **Reply #220 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:11:35 PM »

from what I understand, those Densha de Go games are popular.

[youtube=560,345]gVBKVGn47fk[/youtube]

Raban · « **Reply #221 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:31:29 PM »

Quote from: Wrath2X on January 31, 2011, 08:46:49 PM

Quote from: Raban on January 31, 2011, 01:56:40 PM
Quote from: Wrath2X on January 31, 2011, 01:18:32 PM
I loved the fire temple soundtrack

The one with your people's hymns in it?

actually no, I heard that one on youtube and loved it though.

It's a lot better than its replacement, imo.

Smooth Groove · « **Reply #222 on:** February 01, 2011, 12:19:19 AM »

I bet a huge reason for the popularity of trains in Japan is due to the molestation opportunities presented in trains.

SantaC · « **Reply #223 on:** February 01, 2011, 02:19:56 AM »

Quote from: Van Cruncheon on January 31, 2011, 09:12:00 PM

Quote from: Wrath2X on January 31, 2011, 08:56:46 PM
Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 05:11:44 PM
The only zelda games I want to play again are Phantom Hourglass and Link's Awakening.

Your opinion is now invalid.

cosign. you can't praise mechanics uber alles then laud phantom fucking hourglass, a game so bad even gameloft would feel ashamed to release it

it is the truth though. Phantom Hoursglass is like a smartphone download for 5 bucks. It was my worst zelda game until they managed to top it with Spirit Tracks, lol.

Wind Waker is still the king for me.

Trent Dole · « **Reply #224 on:** February 01, 2011, 04:24:43 AM »

Quote from: Kosma on January 31, 2011, 04:51:51 PM

How could you guys forget this classic piece from OOT. Game has an amazing soundtrack one of my favs of all time.

[youtube=560,345][/youtube]

TIME PARADOX

magus · « **Reply #225 on:** February 01, 2011, 05:51:31 AM »

Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 08:12:35 PM

Its like bitching that you have to help Nabooru escape from jail and THEN you get to go to the spirit temple. Its a trope of Zelda and nothing LA did in particular.

yes this is what i don't get

saving monkeys trough stealth sequence = ok
boring hunt for small light balls = good
cutting bushes for getting money = not a problem
waiting on your ass while waiting the ship arrive at your destination = i can do that
giving banana that you can even get before needing them to monkeys = BAN THIS FILTH!

it's like himuro problem is that i'm kicking him in the balls,but i'm not kicking him hard enough to enjoy it

as regards "plot in videogame" i present to you
[youtube=560,345][/youtube]

SantaC · « **Reply #226 on:** February 01, 2011, 06:47:07 AM »

Quote from: Kosma on February 01, 2011, 03:07:01 AM

Maybe you shouldnt be playing LA in 2011 Himuro, game is from fucking 93 or something. In 93 it sure as hell didnt feel fetch questy and gimicky, its a bit anachronistic to label it as such now eh?

excatly, people shouldn't complain at a fetch quest 18 years later. Zelda LA was the pinnacle of handheld gaming when it was released.

Oh and those who complain at the stealth in Wind Waker, comon it is like 3% of the overall game. There is like five moblins you need to sneak by.

Himu · « **Reply #227 on:** February 01, 2011, 09:05:07 AM »

Kosma: it was only a reply to the LA fan wank. People who shit on the rest of the series while putting LA on pedestal make no sense.

tiesto · « **Reply #228 on:** February 01, 2011, 09:12:35 AM »

Quote from: Van Cruncheon on January 31, 2011, 09:12:00 PM

Quote from: Wrath2X on January 31, 2011, 08:56:46 PM
Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on January 31, 2011, 05:11:44 PM
The only zelda games I want to play again are Phantom Hourglass and Link's Awakening.

Your opinion is now invalid.

cosign. you can't praise mechanics uber alles then laud phantom fucking hourglass, a game so bad even gameloft would feel ashamed to release it

Phantom Hourglass looks like a masterpiece next to Spirit Tracks... I can't believe Nintendo ever put their name to something that terrible.

magus · « **Reply #229 on:** February 01, 2011, 09:30:52 AM »

Quote from: Stringer Bell on February 01, 2011, 09:05:07 AM

Kosma: it was only a reply to the LA fan wank. People who shit on the rest of the series while putting LA on pedestal make no sense.

i don't see anything wrong with liking 2D zelda and not liking 3D zelda

Himu · « **Reply #230 on:** February 01, 2011, 09:36:29 AM »

2d zelda is so simplistic. it's like the 3d games enabled them to do everything they wanted to do in the 2d games but just couldn't manage. the one 2d zelda i'd play on any day of the week is lttp.

Himu · « **Reply #231 on:** February 01, 2011, 09:39:03 AM »

And on that note, almost every person I've seen who prefers 2d zelda over 3d is trying to be edgy or something. Almost every single time.

Diunx · « **Reply #232 on:** February 01, 2011, 09:40:34 AM »

Real talk: lttp and minish cap are the best zelda games.

magus · « **Reply #233 on:** February 01, 2011, 09:44:27 AM »

Quote from: Stringer Bell on February 01, 2011, 09:39:03 AM

And on that note, almost every person I've seen who prefers 2d zelda over 3d is trying to be edgy or something. Almost every single time.

hipster gaming

AdmiralViscen · « **Reply #234 on:** February 01, 2011, 09:51:08 AM »

2D Zeldas have a faster pace and more to do in the overworld.

Himu · « **Reply #235 on:** February 01, 2011, 09:51:27 AM »

Use space, height, and more. You can't do the Shadow Temple or the Forest Temple or even Stone Tower in 2d.

Show me a 2d Zelda game that has nearly as much depth as Arbiter's Grounds and maybe I'll concede.

Himu · « **Reply #236 on:** February 01, 2011, 09:57:14 AM »

Sheit, show me the spirit temple in 2d. The pacing in 2d zelda's tends to be faster, but I'll take depth over that any day.

Himu · « **Reply #237 on:** February 01, 2011, 10:03:06 AM »

Zelda? Janky? Disagree there. Pretty smooth experiences for me.

demi · « **Reply #238 on:** February 01, 2011, 10:22:25 AM »

Quote from: Stringer Bell on February 01, 2011, 10:03:06 AM

Zelda? Janky? Disagree there. Pretty smooth experiences for me.

I'm convinced

SantaC · « **Reply #239 on:** February 01, 2011, 10:43:15 AM »

Quote from: Oscar the Grouch on February 01, 2011, 10:39:26 AM

Quote from: Stringer Bell on February 01, 2011, 09:39:03 AM
And on that note, almost every person I've seen who prefers 2d zelda over 3d is trying to be edgy or something. Almost every single time.

Ehn, I prefer 2D Zelda to 3D Zelda, and I'm a hell of a lot less fickle and prone to attempting to be edgy than you are. Come at me, bro.

OoS and OoA are amazing 2D zeldas, that said my favorite is still Wind Waker due to great enviroment. <3 windfall island. And I dont mind the sailing either, because it actually got that adventurous feeling.

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Author Topic: All off the OoT 3DS wagon? (Read 21509 times)