US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE

[Joe Molotov]

Some House Republicans are deeply frustrated with what they see as a self-defeating strategy, but even they are holding the line. Rep. Devin Nunes (R-CA) told reporters that a "clean" CR, or a bill that would fund government at current levels, never came up in the GOP meeting Tuesday. "We've come this far," said the congressman, who famously called his conservative colleagues "lemmings" on Monday. "Now we have to stick with the Ted Cruz-lemmings strategy."

This is like the part in CSI where the negotiator is like "Put the gun down, there's still time to work this out" and the tweaked out serial rapist is like "Nah man, I've already done too much, I ain't going back to prison!" I usually fall asleep before the end, but I think everyone dies.

[Shadow Mod]

Anyone post this yet?

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/Shutdown_Blues

Only the truly naive can be truly surprised.

Only the truly child-like can have expected anything else.

In the year of our Lord 2010, the voters of the United States elected the worst Congress in the history of the Republic. There have been Congresses more dilatory. There have been Congresses more irresponsible, though not many of them. There have been lazier Congresses, more vicious Congresses, and Congresses less capable of seeing forests for trees. But there has never been in a single Congress -- or, more precisely, in a single House of the Congress -- a more lethal combination of political ambition, political stupidity, and political vainglory than exists in this one, which has arranged to shut down the federal government because it disapproves of a law passed by a previous Congress, signed by the president, and upheld by the Supreme Court, a law that does nothing more than extend the possibility of health insurance to the millions of Americans who do not presently have it, a law based on a proposal from a conservative think-tank and taken out on the test track in Massachusetts by a Republican governor who also happens to have been the party's 2012 nominee for president of the United States. That is why the government of the United States is, in large measure, closed this morning.

We have elected the people sitting on hold, waiting for their moment on an evening drive-time radio talk show.

We have elected an ungovernable collection of snake-handlers, Bible-bangers, ignorami, bagmen and outright frauds, a collection so ungovernable that it insists the nation be ungovernable, too. We have elected people to govern us who do not believe in government.

We have elected a national legislature in which Louie Gohmert and Michele Bachmann have more power than does the Speaker of the House of Representatives, who has been made a piteous spectacle in the eyes of the country and doesn't seem to mind that at all. We have elected a national legislature in which the true power resides in a cabal of vandals, a nihilistic brigade that believes that its opposition to a bill directing millions of new customers to the nation's insurance companies is the equivalent of standing up the the Nazis in 1938, to the bravery of the passengers on Flight 93 on September 11, 2001, and to Mel Gibson's account of the Scottish Wars of Independence in the 13th Century. We have elected a national legislature that looks into the mirror and sees itself already cast in marble.

We did this. We looked at our great legacy of self-government and we handed ourselves over to the reign of morons.

This is what they came to Washington to do -- to break the government of the United States. It doesn't matter any more whether they're doing it out of pure crackpot ideology, or at the behest of the various sugar daddies that back their campaigns, or at the instigation of their party's mouthbreathing base. It may be any one of those reasons. It may be all of them. The government of the United States, in the first three words of its founding charter, belongs to all of us, and these people have broken it deliberately. The true hell of it, though, is that you could see this coming down through the years, all the way from Ronald Reagan's First Inaugural Address in which government "was" the problem, through Bill Clinton's ameliorative nonsense about the era of big government being "over," through the attempts to make a charlatan like Newt Gingrich into a scholar and an ambitious hack like Paul Ryan into a budget genius, and through all the endless attempts to find "common ground" and a "Third Way." Ultimately, as we all wrapped ourselves in good intentions, a prion disease was eating away at the country's higher functions. One of the ways you can acquire a prion disease is to eat right out of its skull the brains of an infected monkey. We are now seeing the country reeling and jabbering from the effects of the prion disease, but it was during the time of Reagan that the country ate the monkey brains.

What is there to be done? The first and most important thing is to recognize how we came to this pass. Both sides did not do this. Both sides are not to blame. There is no compromise to be had here that will leave the current structure of the government intact. There can be no reward for this behavior. I am less sanguine than are many people that this whole thing will redound to the credit of the Democratic party. For that to happen, the country would have to make a nuanced judgment over who is to blame that, I believe, will be discouraged by the courtier press of the Beltway and that, in any case, the country has not shown itself capable of making. For that to happen, the Democratic party would have to be demonstrably ruthless enough to risk its own political standing to make the point, which the Democratic party never has shown itself capable of doing. With the vandals tucked away in safe, gerrymandered districts, and their control over state governments probably unshaken by events in Washington, there will be no great wave election that sweeps them out of power. I do not see profound political consequences for enough of them to change the character of a Congress gone delusional. The only real consequences will be felt by the millions of people affected by what this Congress has forced upon the nation, which was the whole point all along.

Among other things, the Library Of Congress is closed as a result of what the vandals have done. Padlock study and intellect. Wander aimlessly down the mall among the shuttered monuments to self-government. Find yourself a food truck that serves monkey brains. Eat your fking fill.

[Steve Contra]

If I hear one more person say they need to compomise (ON FUCKING WHAT?) I'm going to punch my computer screen.

[Joe Molotov]

If I hear one more person say they need to compomise (ON FUCKING WHAT?) I'm going to punch my computer screen.

RIP Steve's Computer Screen

[benjipwns]

I think they need to compromise on computer screen funding.

[Brehvolution]

The dems offering to fund at sequestration levels was the compromise. It's like 200B lower than the Ryan budget ffs. It just further goes to show that it doesn't matter what the dems offer. It's just a ruse to sell more commercials of Fox news and raise campaign $$$ .

[Howard Alan Treesong]

This new Republican technique is pretty transparent.

"Let's introduce a bill to JUST fund veteran benefits!"

*Democrats sensibly don't agree to fund the US government one department at a time*

"Wow, the Democrats voted to defund veteran benefits! How rude."

https://twitter.com/GOPLeader

[Joe Molotov]

This is almost as genius-tier as those creepy anti-Obamacare ads from last week. Clearly Dems will have problems holding out for long against such Machiavellian intelligence.

[Human Snorenado]

I was actually kind of surprised- using an my evening business law class as an informal focus group, most of them are pretty conservative, low information, small town people... and they're all universally blaming the Republicans for this.  Their attitude seemed to be, "Yeah we don't like Obamacare, but Jesus get over it already."

[Great Rumbler]

I was actually kind of surprised- using an my evening business law class as an informal focus group, most of them are pretty conservative, low information, small town people... and they're all universally blaming the Republicans for this.  Their attitude seemed to be, "Yeah we don't like Obamacare, but Jesus get over it already."

That seems to be a prevailing opinion. Obamacare still isn't too highly regarded [Gee, I wonder why?], but an overwhelming majority of the country doesn't want a government shutdown to get rid of it.

[Joe Molotov]

http://isthegovernmentopen.com/

[Human Snorenado]

I was actually kind of surprised- using an my evening business law class as an informal focus group, most of them are pretty conservative, low information, small town people... and they're all universally blaming the Republicans for this.  Their attitude seemed to be, "Yeah we don't like Obamacare, but Jesus get over it already."

That seems to be a prevailing opinion. Obamacare still isn't too highly regarded [Gee, I wonder why?], but an overwhelming majority of the country doesn't want a government shutdown to get rid of it.

I'm thinking all of these theatrics like trying to fund particular things one at a time will just be either a) ignored/not processed or b) recognized for the ratfuckery they are, like trying to conference with 45 minutes to go last night after refusing to for half a year.

[Shadow Mod]

These dudes all like "well if the dems compromised", on what broham?

[Phoenix Dark]

Yup I deal with some pretty Don Draper-esque republican business types and they aren't happy, at all. And none of them like Obamacare.

[Shadow Mod]

That's because they let their own party be run the fuck over by arrogant tea party fucknuts.

[Joe Molotov]

Who could have known that 50 years of courting racists and morons would eventually result in something unpleasant?

[Oblivion]

The dems offering to fund at sequestration levels was the compromise. It's like 200B lower than the Ryan budget ffs. It just further goes to show that it doesn't matter what the dems offer. It's just a ruse to sell more commercials of Fox news and raise campaign $$$ .

Chris Hayes pointed that out to some teabagger yesterday, and his response was that sequestration was "the law of the land". Hayes kindly pointed out that the same could be said about Obamacare, which the dude said didn't count for some reason, I forget.

[Joe Molotov]

"I'm of two minds. I'd like to be in the arena and help work something out. But it's gotten too nasty and too mean these days. I couldn't work with these guys."
~Trent Lott

[Phoenix Dark]

 

[DCharlieJP]

The whole compromise argument is hilarious

the proposal is , basically, "Give us what we want or we will shut down government"

that, ladies and gentlemen, is treason.

I just find it odd for all the screams of "PATROITS!" "TREASON!" come from the same people who have just basically cost the US potentially billions of $ at the expense of the country.

[Phoenix Dark]

[DCharlieJP]

Good lord - utter destruction

[Great Rumbler]

Warren is a God-tier politician.

[Human Snorenado]

 

[Shadow Mod]

Damn right we're not going back. Fuck you republicans.

[brawndolicious]

I wonder what will happen next time? They followed through with their bluff and the effects of a "shutdown" can only be seen on paper. It'll cost them by making the average person think the TP faction is idiotic for doing this for one law but with current congressional districts being set in stone until 2020, those in the House that know their seats are reserved for a repub know that there won't be any repercussions and can figure that this is their strategy to keep in those seats.

Technically not having a functional government I think is a bigger deal than which democrat nominee became president. This just justifies why I wanted ornery and white Biden to be pres in twenty eight.

/drunk but cogent 

[Oblivion]

The whole compromise argument is hilarious

the proposal is , basically, "Give us what we want or we will shut down government"

that, ladies and gentlemen, is treason.

I just find it odd for all the screams of "PATROITS!" "TREASON!" come from the same people who have just basically cost the US potentially billions of $ at the expense of the country.

The teatards see themselves as the spiritual successors to the founding fathers. Thus, by definition it's IMPOSSIBLE for them to do anything that's not in the best interest of the country. Even if it means destroying it.

 

[Shadow Mod]

The whole compromise argument is hilarious

the proposal is , basically, "Give us what we want or we will shut down government"

that, ladies and gentlemen, is treason.

I just find it odd for all the screams of "PATROITS!" "TREASON!" come from the same people who have just basically cost the US potentially billions of $ at the expense of the country.

The teatards see themselves as the spiritual successors to the founding fathers. Thus, by definition it's IMPOSSIBLE for them to do anything that's not in the best interest of the country. Even if it means destroying it.

 

Sometimes you have to destroy the village to save it.

[Stoney Mason]

I'm glad for the shutdown. It's a great crystallizing moment. This whole presidency has been one historic obstructionist party doing whatever it can. This is the final head for it and to demonstrate it.

[Cerveza mas fina]

What this shows, more then anything, is that a two party system is not really working well at all.

[Rufus]

Italy shows that one dumb prick can ruin everything regardless.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Yes Balotelli needs to be put down I agree Rufus.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Netherlands 2012 elections:

[Cerveza mas fina]

It always changes though, here is 2008. Thats the beauty, you aren't bound to two bs choices.

A fringe party might blow up, or a new party might enter the scen (PVV has 15 seats now, but they didnt even exists 10 years ago).

In 2002 a new party got 26 seats out of nothing!

[ToxicAdam]

It still must feel better as a voter to have more choices and actually have politicians that share more beliefs as you do. Even if those beliefs aren't going to win an election most of the time.

In a two party system, quite often you are not voting for a candidate, but against the other guy. Which is just a recipe for disappointment and even more disillusioned voters.

It's never going to change. The two parties are too efficient at quickly assimilating any organized dissent in this country.

[Cerveza mas fina]

No political system is perfect. Out of this rabble they need to form a coalition government. Which can go so many ways.

Then they negotiate on their viewpoints and you end up with squat cause everyone has to compromise. But maybe thats good as well as no party can rule on their own, you will always need at least one partner to get a majority of the seats.

[Rufus]

right, i see two big ones and a lot of fringe parties there.

Who have to form coalitions with one or more smaller parties to form a government. It boils down to the same as, say, the Democrats or Republicans uniting a certain variety of positions into one big power base, but it's easier to support particular positions with your vote.

Which is not to say that any party, big or small, are united in purpose or ideology. You can't vote for the left-wing of the (ostensibly) centre-left SPD here in Germany.

It's one big fucking mess no matter what.

[ferrarimanf355]

What the Obama administration is portraying as a "shutdown" of the federal government -- complete with signs posted at the entrances to government buildings, parks and monuments -- is turning out to be more of a "slimdown," as all but non-essential workers reported to their jobs Tuesday.

(Image removed from quote.)

Fox News.

[headwalk]

the problem is that most of the time when you go to a three or more party system, it ends up functionally becoming a two- or one- party system anyway.

north european coalition governments generally seem to be the way to go. it generally creates an atmosphere where policy has to be reasoned beforehand, rather than justified after implementation while generally being a much more analogue than a two party system.

even in the UK where the third party has effectively become a bitch-made vassal, their presence (initially at least) sought to curb atleast some of the more onerous tory policy-making.

[Human Snorenado]

The problem with doing that in America is that you would immediately have a splinter party form that had about 15-20% of the current seats that was based on being racist as fuck.  Best to wait another 30-40 years for more of them to be dead.

[Rufus]

That won't save you from those parties forming, looking at the recent outbreaks of xenophobic and eurosceptic parties.

[Human Snorenado]

Yeah, but they'll have way less influence on policy if they're 5-10% of the governing bodies than 15-20%

[Cerveza mas fina]

Well wouldnt it be good to have a party like that be 10/20% and be ignored by other parties in coalitions.

They would burn themself out anyway huffing and puffing

[Joe Molotov]

Plan D, same as Plan C.

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/326023-wednesday-house-will-try-again-on-veterans-parks-dc

[Broseidon]

The problem with doing that in America is that you would immediately have a splinter party form that had about 15-20% of the current seats that was based on being racist as fuck.  Best to wait another 30-40 years for more of them to be dead.

Doesn't the Tea Party already exist?

[Steve Contra]

http://www.salon.com/2013/10/02/grover_norquist_slams_ted_cruz/

This is getting good.

[Great Rumbler]

http://www.salon.com/2013/10/02/grover_norquist_slams_ted_cruz/

This is getting good.

The eternal struggle between Dr. Frankenstein and his monster.

[Joe Molotov]

http://www.salon.com/2013/10/02/inside_the_mind_of_angry_gop_rep_john_culberson_talks_to_salon/

If you wanna know what the crazies are thinking, here's a peak.

[Steve Contra]

That salt

[Oblivion]

Obama has accused Republicans of hostage taking. Let’s be clear: I’m all for taking hostages. Both sides do it all the time. But one of the first things they teach you in Hostage Taking 101 is that you have to choose a hostage the other side cares about saving. Obama and the Democrats don’t care about stopping a government shutdown. With a shutdown, Republicans are essentially putting a gun to their own heads and threatening to pull the trigger if the Democrats don’t capitulate. Not surprisingly, it’s not working.

As former treasury secretary Timothy Geithner explained during the last debt-limit standoff, the effects of default would be “catastrophic,” resulting in the “loss of millions of American jobs,” and would have an economic impact “potentially much more harmful than the effects of the financial crisis of 2008 and 2009.” Obama will not permit an economic crisis worse than 2008-09 and the “loss of millions of American jobs” on his watch. He has no choice but to negotiate with GOP leaders and cut a deal to avoid a government default.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-the-gop-flunks-hostage-taking-101/2013/09/30/43a4ff00-29d2-11e3-97a3-ff2758228523_story.html?hpid=z3

Holy shit…has any right-winger expressed their intentions as clear as Theissen? I mean, this is supposed to be his DEFENSE for distinguished mentally-challenged Republican antics.

[DCharlieJP]

ObamaCare is nothing but a government takeover of the healthcare industry! It takes funding from Medicare, increases taxes, and contains an unconstitutional individual mandate that requires every American to purchase insurance!

so - i'd been confused as to what the exact problem the right have with the ACA and ... this is the best i could find on the TB site.

So.... let me make sure i get this right....

This is a supplementary system to provide for those who have -no- healthcare insurance. It makes everyone have some form of protection. The attack against it being an "unconstitutional individual mandate" basically amounts to "well, if americans want to be dumb enough to put themselves into financial ruin or early death then the government shouldn't meddle with that"

Either way - if you want health care, you need to be insured in some way right? So... this is basically Reps trying to make sure that the Health Industry doesn't lose it's ability to skin everyone?
 
I mean - after reading that link above where the GOPper seems to be handwaving aside the practice of insurance companies being able to kick out preexisting condition cases or, at best, throw massive unaffordable prices at those individuals i assume that's on target

I'm trying to follow the money here - so i assume this is the core issue?

Help?

[Joe Molotov]

Well you see, the main problem is that Obama is black.

[Great Rumbler]

Obamacare was the brainchild of the Heritage Foundation, first implemented at the state level by the 2012 Republican nominee for President.

[DCharlieJP]

Now i'm even more confused - was the idea of that think tank to force everyone to have health insurance but minus the "and there'll be a gubbernment option" or something ? because -that- sounds pretty GOPpy but having a government option doesn't.


edit : oh, if i'd just read the extra bit :

"Health care accounts for nearly 20% of the US economy and by 2014, the Federal government will have taken over most of the industry when ObamaCare is fully implemented."

lol lol lol. bu bu bu bu ....

[Oblivion]

Now i'm even more confused - was the idea of that think tank to force everyone to have health insurance but minus the "and there'll be a gubbernment option" or something ? because -that- sounds pretty GOPpy but having a government option doesn't.


edit : oh, if i'd just read the extra bit :

"Health care accounts for nearly 20% of the US economy and by 2014, the Federal government will have taken over most of the industry when ObamaCare is fully implemented."

lol lol lol. bu bu bu bu ....

Yeah, the original idea was that forcing the filthy poors to buy health insurance would allow them to "take responsibility" by not showing up to the emergency room for fun and sticking all the God-fearin' Republicans who DID have insurance with the bill.

A week or two ago, Rick Perry (governor of Texas, and presidential nominee, in case you don't know) was on one of the shitty CNN shows and was asked by one of Obama's minions why it's fine allowing health care moochers to go on mooching, and his response was that the people of Texans wanted it that way.

[Joe Molotov]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/the-republican-party-cannot-stand-by-and-let-obama,34074/

They haunt my dreams at night. I have this one nightmare where I’m about to ask for a vote on a clean continuing resolution and then one of them—I think it’s Steve King from Iowa—looks at me with this eerie smile and says, “No, John. No you won’t.” And then the rest of them are suddenly standing behind him and they all chant in a chilling monotone, “No, John. No you won’t.” And then I wake up screaming, “No, John!!! No you won’t!!!” and I’m crying, and my wife is crying, and I’ve sweat through my sheets.

[DCharlieJP]

and his response was that the people of Texans wanted it that way.

as i read more it really does seem to be Perry, Palin and all the other douchebags saying , in a roundabout way, "It's the right of every low IQ uninformed American to make choices they aren't equipped to make to the benefit of our backers. THIS IS AMERICA! ROAR!"

Anyhoo - what i'm now wondering - what is all this noise really hiding? After they drop their opposition what are the other "and we want..." conditions that are going to sly in - no doubt some crushing of some pro-environment stuff? Some dodgy oil deal or pipeline? More areas opened up to thracking or something?

There's a huge song and dance taking my attention <--- this way so what is it that the GOP are hiding behind the curtain?

[Great Rumbler]

I think you're giving the Tea Party a bit too much credit. It's a song and dance, sure, but it's partly because they're total ideologues who actually believe their Holy Christian Soldiers doing God's Work, but I'm sure they'll push for all kinds of fun stuff come the debt default deadline.

[benjipwns]

Now i'm even more confused - was the idea of that think tank to force everyone to have health insurance but minus the "and there'll be a gubbernment option" or something ? because -that- sounds pretty GOPpy but having a government option doesn't.

Heritage created the proposal in response to HillaryCare and it's a classic "conservative" fuck with the tax code to create a "market" version of a government program. Like Bush's Social Security "opt-out" option was.

Keep in mind that ObamaCare is more of a cudgel for lots of the GOP to use against Obama/Democrats. If it had never passed, it would probably be something else, but this is just such a juicy target they've tried to figure out how to use for three years now*. After all, Bush signed McCain-Feingold, No Child Left Behind, Medicare Part D...Clinton signed welfare reform and with Joe Biden basically introduced the Patriot Act...Obama's signed off on the latter and all the various related endeavors. If Romney had won, his administration would be talking about "reform not repeal" and the Tea Party wouldn't be as strong of position as they are in a single house (and a couple Senators) as the only powerbase. It's more about Boehner's opportunity seeking and long-standing irrelevancy plus the GOP's incoherence on the Tea Party.

I think the actual "fight" is far less about Dem vs. GOP than it is GOP vs. GOP. Just like the one in the 1990's. Opportunists are using it to publicly position themselves as fighting against Obama much like Gingrich vis a vis Clinton only rather than having a figure like Bob Dole who wanted to get it over with so he could run for President half the potential GOP candidates seem to be using it to boost their bids.

*EDIT: Plus, ObamaCare's the fake "compromise/concession" so they don't have to actually fight on the budget. Opposition to ObamaCare is the lone unifying force, if they started to discuss the budget it would splinter.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Some Republicans are covering their asses by being so vehemently anti-Obamacare.  For the past two election cycles, many Republicans caught making eye contact with a Democrat resulted in being challenged in their re-election primaries...and quite often lost.  Of course a lot of these bases voted for Gingrich and Santorum in flocks so good luck getting that turned around.