US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE

[Mandark]

JayDubya, the biological concept of the organism does not actually give objective proof to your preferred system of morality.



I'm gonna go out and have a milkshake.  Someone unshit the thread before I get back.

[nachobro]

Sorta like your posts

[Shadow Mod]

I guess I'm such a sociopath I really don't get the difference between my body rejecting a fertilized embryo without me being conscious of it and me doing the deed myself. Seems like it's a thing that happens whether or not I'm pulling the strings, so what's the big deal again.

[Shadow Mod]

I guess I'm such a sociopath I really don't get the difference between my body rejecting a fertilized embryo without me being conscious of it and me doing the deed myself. Seems like it's a thing that happens whether or not I'm pulling the strings, so what's the big deal again.

Oh god, the stupid.  As opposed to what, distinguished mentally-challenged fellow, an unfertilized embryo?  Get thee hence to Bio 101 - audit it if you have to.

Seems to me abortion is more natural than being pregnant given how often the things actually implant. You're sure pissed. Sorry fertilized egg.

[mormapope]

I used to just be pro abortion, but after these JayDubya posts, I might be pro eugenics as well.

EDIT: Sociopaths actually have soft spots for really random things they deem innocent/important or things that should never be fucked with. Having passionate thoughts and emotions over cells or canned chicken goo sounds more sociopathic than not caring about that shit.

[Shadow Mod]

It's just weird to me the logic. It's a miscarriage unless I have full knowledge and some involvement, then it's an abortion and so wrong on a moral level, despite the female body basically being an abortive machine. Huh.

[Steve Contra]

No shit, everytime this debate comes up, I remember to donate to my regular suite of abortion service charities.  Thanks JD.

[Shadow Mod]

How is it a natural death? What if I'm not doing my best to be in a state where I get pregnant? Aren't I just as guilty on some level?

[Human Snorenado]

JayDubya, the biological concept of the organism does not actually give objective proof to your preferred system of morality.



I'm gonna go out and have a milkshake.  Someone unshit the thread before I get back.

Not possible. JD's touch is like the bog of eternal stench- this place is ruined forever.

[studyguy]

It's just weird to me the logic. It's a miscarriage unless I have full knowledge and some involvement, then it's an abortion and so wrong on a moral level, despite the female body basically being an abortive machine. Huh.

Sometimes you just need to flush a couple babies out your system.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I prefer to flush them down toilets myself.

[close]

[Shadow Mod]

What about women who don't stop and become bed ridden the moment they know they're pregnant. Is any miscarriage that happens technically an abortion. Are they actually committing murder on a subconscious level.

[brawndolicious]

How is it a natural death? What if I'm not doing my best to be in a state where I get pregnant? Aren't I just as guilty on some level?

This sounds like shit that's asked on a mullahs site: "what if there's an earthquake and you fall into your sister's vagina?"

But you're just asking to troll, you know it. And it's boring. 

[Steve Contra]

Seriously tho people, how long have you all been on the game dude internets?  This is JayDubya's schtick.  For years and years no one has gotten him to say anything remotely of value, just the same tired stuff.  He keeps going by roping in you youngins (just like Ron Paul, just as racist too).

[Shadow Mod]

How is it a natural death? What if I'm not doing my best to be in a state where I get pregnant? Aren't I just as guilty on some level?

This sounds like shit that's asked on a mullahs site: "what if there's an earthquake and you fall into your sister's vagina?"

But you're just asking to troll, you know it. And it's boring. 

I'm trolling yes but the questions are still legit. When and where do I become morally culpable for failing to get and maintain pregnancy? Since apparently that's what the default state of being should be. And women are some kind of monsters for terminating that condition by choice through various actions.

Seriously tho people, how long have you all been on the game dude internets?  This is JayDubya's schtick.  For years and years no one has gotten him to say anything remotely of value, just the same tired stuff.  He keeps going by roping in you youngins (just like Ron Paul, just as racist too).

Shit I don't care. I'm just askin' questions at this point.

[Shadow Mod]

It's a perfectly reasonable set of questions, when does a woman become culpable for the miscarriage or failure of the embryo to implant.

[Rufus]

I dunno JD, all you've got going for you is semantics, since your entire argument hinges on putting even a zygote on equal footing to a developed human being.

If Mandark can be fucked to put this into words that you find acceptable, good on him, I'm sure as shit not going to do it though.

[Dickie Dee]

I'm gonna go out and have a milkshake.  Someone unshit the thread before I get back.

Kinda disappointed, thought this was going to be the semi-annual Jaydubya chortling on Mandark's D

 

[Dickie Dee]

No shit, everytime this debate comes up, I remember to donate to my regular suite of abortion service charities.  Thanks JD.

Thanks for the reminder.

[Rufus]

Yes, valuing humans equally hinges on valuing humans equally.

Well done.

I'm not going to play dueling dictionaries with you. If you've got nothing beyond "it is because it is", then there's no point to this entire exchange.

[TakingBackSunday]

this thread should be aborted

[Trent Dole]

there's no point to this entire exchange.

^politics in general right here

[Phoenix Dark]

JayDubya, the biological concept of the organism does not actually give objective proof to your preferred system of morality.



I'm gonna go out and have a milkshake.  Someone unshit the thread before I get back.

[Samson Manhug]

No shit, everytime this debate comes up, I remember to donate to my regular suite of abortion service charities.  Thanks JD.

I've never thought to do that before, but that's a good idea.

[Human Snorenado]

I decided to donate to the local Feminist Women's Health Center, which has an abortion clinic and I'm pretty sure a higher percentage of what they do is abortion related. Thanks, JD!

[Kara]

Ayyo benji, the state is legitimate, Pareto efficiency is real, and Steve Youngblood is a good moderator.

[Steve Contra]

JayDubya making a real difference in the lives of women

[Shadow Mod]

Pooling money to assist women in hiring hitmen.

 

[Mandark]

  UPDATE



While the milkshake was excellent, biology still isn't dispositive in moral philosophy.

So a mixed bag, overall.

[Himu]

I was confused why this thread grew like three-four pages in less than a day. Saw JD bring up abortion and sighed. I got my answer.

[studyguy]

I assumed JD was being satirical.
I refuse to be moved from this opinion.

[ToxicAdam]

You know what's curious, you rarely ever find someone that is passionate about legal abortion and capital punishment. If you're steadfast on one, you're probably not crazy about the other. I bet the Venn diagram on that one barely intersects.

Not that the two issues share a bunch of commonality, but it just illustrates how predictable and tribal everyone has become.






 

[chronovore]

I assumed JD was being satirical.
I refuse to be moved from this opinion.

I enjoy reading his posts in the same tone used for A Modest Proposal.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

j/k I've got him Blocked and only see his posts when Quoted.

[close]

[Himu]

You know what's curious, you rarely ever find someone that is passionate about legal abortion and capital punishment. If you're steadfast on one, you're probably not crazy about the other. I bet the Venn diagram on that one barely intersects.

Not that the two issues share a bunch of commonality, but it just illustrates how predictable and tribal everyone has become.

That's quite a stretch.

They're actually under the same philosophies. You're just not looking hard enough to find the commonalities.

Pro-choice - I am pro-choice because I think that people who live here on this Earth right now should have choices on this matter. If a woman is raped, or she'll die from giving birth and doesn't to risk it, there's zero reason why the life of a baby should take precedence over hers.

Likewise, there's zero reason to warrant killing someone as punishment for a crime. They are human, and deserve to be treated as such. Further, capital punishment rarely works. It doesn't deter people from committing crime. It also allows those who rule to come up with any reasoning to justify death penalties. Finally, there have plenty of innocent people on death row who have died innocent.

Both viewpoints stress humanism and those living among us today, rather than punishing people from a very high road of morality (either through forcing them to have a baby when they were raped or it will kill them or whatever or killing someone through a distorted view of justice).

The confusing viewpoint is someone who is anti-abortion and yet pro-death penalty. They say they value life through anti-abortion means, but think people should die for their crimes. Actually, it's not that confusing. They just want to force their morality upon everyone else, no matter the circumstances.

[Shadow Mod]

Sometimes even their own morality can bend in their own self-interest, there are plenty of anti-abortion folks who end up doing it and consider theirs (or their daughter's/wife's) more "moral" than those "other sluts."

[ToxicAdam]

(@Himuro) You value the choice of a woman to do what she wants, but not the choice of the victims of the murder? They didn't chose to have their one shot at existence be terminated. Why does the murderer get a chance to continue on living theirs? Just because he/she is still around?

Even though life in prison is less than ideal, you can still experience happiness, joy, affection and experiences within it. Those people that are murdered cannot and never will. Once you rob someone of their sole existence, you forfeit the right to your own. That's humanism.

[Shadow Mod]

I don't think you or the state can ascribe to some higher form of morality by killing people who kill. If your laws and ethics claim killing is wrong and then you put a but on it, what's the point.

[ToxicAdam]

Once you willingly kill multiple people, you forfeit your rights as a human. It's no different than killing a wounded animal. There is no morality involved.

[Shadow Mod]

Who made that rule?

You still haven't actually disputed my issue with it.

Killing is wrong, except if someone killed someone else? Then eye for an eye?

Great justice system that.

[Mandark]

Those people that are murdered cannot and never will. Once you rob someone of their sole existence, you forfeit the right to your own. That's humanism.

I'm not sure but I don't think that's actually how humanism works.

[ToxicAdam]

When you divorce religion/spirituality from every aspect of existence, all we have are these scant 100 years to exist. All we are, are the memories we create in that window of time. If that's not held as sacred and a basic right, then it doesn't strike me as a main tenant of what humanism is or should be.

[Human Snorenado]

I thought humanism is where people voluntarily accept each other, like in sports.

[ToxicAdam]

Apparently, mass murder is like a Hollywood headbutt. As long as you think of it first, the other guy gets fucked.

[Mandark]

Oh never mind TA, I see what you're doing.  Carry on.

[Shadow Mod]

The U.S. seems to veer a lot in personal responsibility while ignoring the greater societal problems that create murderers, rapists, etc. Far as I'm concerned if it's proven a serial murderer and or rapists parents (or whomever) abused the individual, they should be in the cell right next to them. But acting like violence in this country is so random and unexpected absolves the rest of us Americans from self-introspection. We are a big fucking part of the problem of the violence we deem so "depraved" and so "tragic."

[ToxicAdam]

Oh never mind TA, I see what you're doing.  Carry on.

At least link directly to the post. You're getting lazy in your old age. Younger Mandark would have pulled a post from 5 years ago and directly linked it.

[Himu]

When you divorce religion/spirituality from every aspect of existence, all we have are these scant 100 years to exist. All we are, are the memories we create in that window of time. If that's not held as sacred and a basic right, then it doesn't strike me as a main tenant of what humanism is or should be.

[Kara]

It's a house.

[benjipwns]

https://lessigforpresident.com/

http://www.nationaljournal.com/2016-elections/lawrence-lessig-running-for-president-20150811

[benjipwns]

Someone who is objectively guilty of killing other human beings is not the equal to other human beings and should not be treated as such.  They're a rabid dog who deserves to be, at best, cordoned off away from actual humans so they don't hurt anyone else.  This now includes present company.

[benjipwns]

But this is why I meant to come in here, from This Town:

Shortly after Obama took office, he and [Rahm] Emanuel were meeting with Nancy Pelosi, when the chief of staff started cracking his knuckles. When Obama turned and expressed annoyance with the habit, Emanuel held the offending knuckle up to Obama's left ear and snapped off a few special cracks for his presidential benefit.

[Kara]

benji, this thread desperately needs some New Synthesis.

[benjipwns]

http://revcom.us/a/397/sunsara-taylor-stop-the-lies-and-attacks-against-planned-parenthood-en.html

This attack on Planned Parenthood is a major move in a fascist assault to completely annihilate women’s right to abortion. It is a move aimed at returning to the days when women were much more openly viewed as property of their husbands and breeders of children. The fact that national government figures are openly contemplating shutting down the government over this reveals just how deadly serious they are. They want to force women to have children against their will. This is a form of enslavement and it must be STOPPED.

But the situation is not dangerous only because of the cold-hearted aggression of Republican law-makers to further strip women of the right to birth control and abortion (not to mention many cancer screenings and other basic health care) by de-funding Planned Parenthood.

This danger is exacerbated by the craven defensiveness of Democrats and leading pro-choice figures in the face of this attack. Rather than speak positively in defense of abortion rights, Bernie Sanders, the “progressive” Democrat running for president, joined in criticizing one of the Planned Parenthood executives for what he said was a “terribly wrong” tone. Democratic Senator Harry Reid made sure to mention that these videos “raised questions” before admitting that, as far as he knows, no law has been broken. Hillary Clinton, after nearly a week of deafening silence, very passively expressed that she is “hoping that this situation will not further undermine the very important services that Planned Parenthood provides.”

No! Those who made this video are completely illegitimate. They are dishonest and they are motivated by nothing but a stark, cold hatred for women. They know very well that demonizing abortion providers in this way has directly contributed to unleashing Christian fascist terrorists to bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors. There is nothing moral about any of this!

And those in government who are using this video as a pretext to spread lies about, viciously demonize, and shut down clinics that provide women with birth control and abortion are threatening the lives and the future of millions of women. They have no right to claim the “moral high ground.” They must be called out and STOPPED.

There is no reason—and can be no room—for defensiveness in the face of these fascists. Fetuses are NOT babies. Abortion is NOT murder. And women are NOT incubators.

It is more important than ever for people who do not want to see women forced to have children against their will to speak openly and boldly about the tremendous positive importance of abortion rights. It is important to counter the lies being spread, including through reading and spreading this article about what a fetus and an abortion actually are. And it is critical that people join in politically resisting and refuting all the lies and attacks being made against Planned Parenthood—and against any other abortion providers who may come under attack.

ABORTION ON DEMAND AND WITHOUT APOLOGY
FORCED MOTHERHOOD IS FEMALE ENSLAVEMENT

http://revcom.us/a/394/talk-by-sunsara-taylor-stop-assault-on-abortion-rights-en.html

An all-out assault on women's right to abortion is leaving 600-mile stretches between abortion clinics, and banning abortions at earlier and earlier points in the pregnancy. Why does it matter whether or not women have the right to abortion? Sunsara Taylor brings a true picture of what it means to be living through a war on women, where all this comes from, and why the domination of women by men is not human nature. She brings alive how a real revolution can liberate women and what must be done today to build the fight for real and lasting emancipation.

Sunsara Taylor is a writer for Revolution newspaper (revcom.us) and key initiator of "End Pornography & Patriarchy: the Enslavement and Degradation of Women (StopPatriarchy.org)

http://revcom.us/a/1265/what-is-abortion.htm

The Christian fascist movement has been growing and strengthening its base in society for decades—through religious organizations, "think" tanks, school boards, lobbying groups, "abstinence-only" programs, movies like The Passion of the Christ and other cultural works, and in various other ways. And as became stark with the reelection of George W. Bush, the Christian fascists are firmly entrenched in the top levels of the ruling class and within the government itself. They have a lot of initiative and are increasingly setting the terms, and no other section of the ruling class is either willing or able to pose a real challenge. Emboldened by Bush’s recent victory and clutching a social program interwoven with tradition’s chains, these forces have set their sights on abortion: by restricting access and funding, building up anti-abortion organizations, promoting unscientific notions that a fetus is a "human being," and preparing to outlaw abortion altogether through a Supreme Court decision to overthrow Roe v. Wade.

The right of women to control their reproduction is essential to women’s liberation—this is why the Christian fascists see outlawing abortion and increasing control over women as an essential component and leading edge of their whole Dark Ages social program. And this is why everyone who doesn’t want to live in the nightmarish future envisioned by these Christian fascists has to jump into the political battle over abortion. In order to wage this battle, people need truth and scientific understanding.

The following presentation of the science behind abortion is a slightly edited version of an article that originally appeared in RW #897.

A.S.K., the author of "Life Cannot and Should Not Always Be Preserved," is a contributing writer to the Revolutionary Worker with experience in the struggle for scientific experimentation as well as the revolutionary struggle.

http://bobavakian.net/articles/ccw/ccw17.html

These are ways that we can hit back hard at them, politically and ideologically, getting to what is the essence here: It is not the supposed "killing of babies," it is that they want women to be in essence the property of men, to be controlled by their husbands and to be breeders of children, breeders of property, for their husbands. We should continue to hammer at them: " That is what your Bible advocates, and that is what you are for. And this is shown not only by your opposition to abortion but also by the fact that, at the same time, you are against birth control."

It is also very important to be bringing things back to the reality of what 90 plus percent of abortions actually consist of--the fact that they are performed in the first trimester, the first three months of pregnancy, when the fetus is anywhere from the size of the period at the end of this sentence to about an inch in length. Those opposed to abortion distort and play up things they make sound like horrors, like late-term abortions. First of all, they label these procedures "partial birth abortions," distorting what they actually are. Second of all, they misrepresent how often they actually occur--the fact that they are really quite rare--and they misrepresent under what conditions they generally occur, they leave out or push to the background the health of the woman in question. And then this --their distortions of late-term abortions--becomes, in their propaganda, identified with all abortions. Not that we should be defensive about the necessity for late-term abortions, but all this is just total distortion. We have to wage a counter-offensive here, and get to what the essence of the issue is. In the case of the great majority of abortions, over 90 percent, what is involved, in terms of the fetus, is a very tiny clump of cells--it is that versus a woman’s fate. That’s what we’re talking about here. Physiologically and socially, that’s essentially what we’re talking about here--the fate of women vs. a clump of cells, which at that point (during the first three months in particular) are by no means even completely differentiated (into different organs and parts of the body with different specific functions) and certainly are not anything like a developed human being--and are, in fact, a tiny clump of cells. We have to get things back to the real issue.

This is not only a crucial issue in an overall sense, but it is being even more sharply posed in the aftermath of the 2004 election, where the Christian Fascists are pushing like crazy to abolish the right to abortion--they are insisting to Bush and the Republicans: "You’ve gotta deliver on this now." That is why they went after Arlen Specter (a long-time Senator from Pennsylvania, who is supposedly a more "moderate Republican," whatever that means), because Specter cautioned Bush about nominating people as judges who would support the outright outlawing of abortion.

And, as with the political situation in general at this point, the polarization around the question of abortion is not favorable now. Even among women, particularly younger women, there is a lot of confusion around this issue, a lot of influence of the reactionary offensive against abortion, including the characterization of abortion as "killing babies." Many of these young women have not understood the essence of this issue--and many other people have lost sight of it, or become "fuzzy" and "conflicted" about it--not only because of the reactionary offensive but also because the bourgeois-democratic leaders of the women’s movement have let themselves believe that they could just become passive and let Democratic Party politicians like Clinton and Gore take care of it. They fell into the false notion that, "Oh, they’ll never really take away the right to abortion--or, if there is a real threat of that, we just gotta vote for Democrats." They have let the other side--the Christian Fascists and the reactionaries generally, with their offensive against abortion--completely have the initiative, politically and ideologically (including morally), for years and years now.

And, while it was of course a very good thing that a million people came out to demonstrate recently in support of the right to abortion, by itself that will not end up amounting to very much, because these people haven’t seized the political and ideological initiative around this question. And, to be blunt, many of the million women and men who were there, to support the right to abortion, would have a very hard time answering the moral and overall ideological offensive of the other side--other than to just sort of retreat into certain catch phrases about a woman’s right to choose, without being able to engage the substance of the attack on that.

[Kara]

Finally some common sense. Thank you.

[benjipwns]

Which guy? Those are three different people, including a woman, who all understand that you can't break all the chains but one.

You cannot break all the chains, except one. You cannot say you want to be free of exploitation and oppression, except you want to keep the oppression of women by men. You can’t say you want to liberate humanity yet keep one half of the people enslaved to the other half. The oppression of women is completely bound up with the division of society into masters and slaves, exploiters and exploited, and the ending of all such conditions is impossible without the complete liberation of women. All this is why women have a tremendous role to play not only in making revolution but in making sure there is all-the-way revolution. The fury of women can and must be fully unleashed as a mighty force for proletarian revolution.

Bob Avakian
Chairman of the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA
BAsics 3:22

NEW from Bob Avakian: Break ALL the Chains! Bob Avakian on the Emancipation of Women and the Communist Revolution

[Brehvolution]

Fuck government forced birth.

[chronovore]

I assumed JD was being satirical.
I refuse to be moved from this opinion.

I enjoy reading his posts in the same tone used for A Modest Proposal.

Well then here's a fun fact to drill through your thickheaded skull: Jonathan Swift wrote in jest about killing the children of the poor.

It's you people that are actually running with the notion.

Pretty soon you'll be telling me that life begins not with conception, but with intent. You can accuse women who turn you down of murder! It's win-win.

[chronovore]

You'll understand when you're a grown-up.

[benjipwns]

[Brehvolution]

Nope, still the same dope.

[Himu]

That's quite a stretch.

They're actually under the same philosophies. You're just not looking hard enough to find the commonalities.

Pro-choice - I am pro-choice because I think that people who live here on this Earth right now should have choices on this matter.

The kid is "living here right now on Earth."  It is clear that your "opinion" is also based in ignorance of basic fact.  This is a very common trend among you pro-aborts, you just don't know shit.  It's frustrating.

Likewise, there's zero reason to warrant killing someone as punishment for a crime. They are human, and deserve to be treated as such.

There are two problems with the death penalty, one is currently completely controlled for and the other is always going to be a problem with all law enforcement.

The former is the possibility of Draco-esque execution for jaywalking; of course, now it's only handed out for specific criminal charges against those who have killed other human beings.

The latter is the possibility of convicting someone who is innocent.

Someone who is objectively guilty of killing other human beings is not the equal to other human beings and should not be treated as such.  They're a rabid dog who deserves to be, at best, cordoned off away from actual humans so they don't hurt anyone else.  This now includes present company.

See, as I said in the philosophy thread, there's no point in engaging you. You don't want to change your view, I don't want to change mine. We are set in our world views. Why don't we just end this discussion here and now?