Author Topic: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE  (Read 2771627 times)

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Am_I_Anonymous

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YMMV

brob

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 :hans1

Joe Molotov

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I'll wait until Tay weighs in.
©@©™

I just went back and re-read the “Bernie’s campaign is dead” posts from a month ago for a good laugh.

Phoenix Dark

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But his campaign is dead: he's not going to win
 ???

like the elves of Lothlorien he is on the journey of The Long Defeat.
010

Tasty

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I just went back and re-read the “Bernie’s campaign is dead” posts from a month ago for a good laugh.

https://twitter.com/mmurraypolitics/status/713849264049430528

Yeti

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Bush did 9/11, Bernie did bird/podium
WDW

Mandark

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like the elves of Lothlorien he is on the journey of The Long Defeat.

A bit odd how he's in a very similar position to Hillary from late in the '08 campaign, basically locked out by delegate math and demographics, but still campaigning and taking some states.

I don't blame him.  He's too old to be running again, and he's got a message he wants to get out.  It's really at the point where he and his followers need to start accepting he won't be the nominee and figure out a way to carry the enthusiasm and involvement over to something productive, rather than letting it dissipate into apathy or cathartic Reddit posts.

Phoenix Dark

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He's also down more than Hillary was at the time. Based on Game Change and some of the other reporting at the time it seemed like Hillary was praying for some type of intervention to make her the nominee, and Bill was pressing superdelegates to hand her the nom no matter what. I remember quite a bit of nonsense about her winning the popular vote of the democrat primary process, which is only accurate if you count Michigan and Florida - the two states that had their delegates taken away due to moving the contest up too early. Neither Obama or Edwards were on the ballots.

This race was probably too lopsided for any great behind-the-scenes books to be produced in a few months/years but I'd love for someone to explain how Sanders' campaign thought they could win the nomination without the black vote. It just baffles the mind. I remember Edwards and Obama attending various "black events" as early as 2006, clearly in preparation for 2007/2008. I'd imagine Sanders never thought he had a shot at winning, and probably didn't think he'd do this well...but it still doesn't make sense that a democrat could look at the primary map in early 2015 and say "the south? Nah, fuck that."
010

Human Snorenado

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I don't think that Bernie thought he could win at the outset. He was running to try to keep Hillary honest and highlight issues (campaign finance reform, financial system regulation, etc) that he's been beating the drum on forever. That's probably why, when he had to outline actual policy proposals, some of his math looks like a pile of shit.

He's done better than he probably thought he could. And the fact that Hillary couldn't easily swat down a 74 or whatever year old grumpy Jewish grandfather that identifies as a socialist shows that she's a weak candidate, IMO. She's going to win the political lottery by having to campaign against either someone with worse unfavorables than her (Trump) or a Lizard Person (Cruz, natch) this fall.
yar

chronovore

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There's part of me that wonders if she'd bring him on her ticket as VP. I mean, Bernie has been steadfast about not badmouthing her, and it would certainly take that trove of people who claim "BERNIE OR GTFO" and give them a reason to vote in November. My nightmare scenario is Bernie running independent and splitting enough of the dem vote to hand the GOP a win.

Joe Molotov

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Bush did 9/11, Bernie did bird/podium



 :heh
©@©™

Human Snorenado

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#justthetip
yar

Syph

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But his campaign is dead: he's not going to win
 ???

like the elves of Lothlorien he is on the journey of The Long Defeat.
will blasting Lord of the Rings music get me laid?
XO

Barry Egan

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Trent Dole

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Bernie is literally Jesus 2.0. Except even better cause the original Jesus didn't give us free college and healthcare.
Uhm excuse me Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead free of charge didn't he? :teehee
Hi

VomKriege

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Depends at how much you value your soul.
ὕβρις

Sman

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I disagree Bernie should pull out of the primaries, just like Hillary had no reason to in 2008. He's sufficiently different as a candidate, he still represents large and important constituents, the party is not tearing itself apart with him still running, you owe it to the latter primaries/caucuses to actually have a choice and however unlikely, he still has a shot at the nomination. Politics can be about taking risks, persevering and be the right man at the right place if that special opportunity arises. If after all of this, he doesn't win, he can at least say he tried his hardest.

Also, fuck Hillary. :)

Sanders sticking around forces Hillary to talk about things she probably wouldn't otherwise. I'm fine with it, and I'll vote for whoever gets the Democratic nomination.

I would, however, like to know which one of the articles talking about Sanders' tax plan is accurate, because the one my wife and I saw last week was frightening. I also know that his grand plans would get neutered by the House, but it was still insane when we ran the numbers.
野球

Mupepe

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I believe one of the ones floating around calculates the employer portion of the payroll tax alongside your tax increase calculation since they considered tax increases on employers getting passed to employees via wages.

thisismyusername

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Sanders sticking around forces Hillary to talk about things she probably wouldn't otherwise.

Speaking of which:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/03/clinton-campaign-says-no-more-debates-until-bernie-starts-be-nicer

 :lol :lol :lol :lol

CatsCatsCats

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Which is ridiculous, he really hasn't ran very negative

Madrun Badrun

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Hilary is just ornithophobic.

I'm a Puppy!

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OMG, if you can't handle Bernie, you probably need someone to help you pull the lid off your pudding cup.
que

Trent Dole

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Complain about Bernie when you're going to have to deal with Trump down the road brehs.
Hi


Olivia Wilde Homo

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Sanders was never going to win: the superdelegates are designed to keep the party machine humming along.  Sanders spent most of his career as an independent so why would superdelegates go for someone like him when Hillary has always been a loyal machine Democrat?  Makes no sense.  Sanders is lucky to have the superdelegates he has, few as they might be.

I caucused for Bernie full well knowing he wasn't going to make it.  Sanders was not aggressive enough in 2015 because he thought his principles alone would do it: sometimes it does but often times its not enough.  He's done well all considering.  Hillary is a terrible campaigner though.

This race was probably too lopsided for any great behind-the-scenes books to be produced in a few months/years but I'd love for someone to explain how Sanders' campaign thought they could win the nomination without the black vote. It just baffles the mind. I remember Edwards and Obama attending various "black events" as early as 2006, clearly in preparation for 2007/2008. I'd imagine Sanders never thought he had a shot at winning, and probably didn't think he'd do this well...but it still doesn't make sense that a democrat could look at the primary map in early 2015 and say "the south? Nah, fuck that."

He's never had to appeal to black voters before.  His political career was focused in Burlington, Vermont, which for most of his time has been well over 90% white.  It's a blind spot that he probably didn't anticipate.  Conversely, Edwards is from North Carolina.

Sanders sticking around forces Hillary to talk about things she probably wouldn't otherwise.

Speaking of which:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/03/clinton-campaign-says-no-more-debates-until-bernie-starts-be-nicer

 :lol :lol :lol :lol

Trump is going to go for the jugular.  If she can't handle Sanders, she will be Trump's new chew toy (see also: Lindsey Graham, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio) for the general election.  Trump's numbers are down only because the GOP primaries are especially vicious now.  Once the GOP lets up (or whimpers away), his numbers are going to bounce back.  Fortunately most Democratic strategists I see in articles are not declaring victory yet.
🍆🍆

Mandark

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lolz superdelegates

This race was probably too lopsided for any great behind-the-scenes books to be produced in a few months/years but I'd love for someone to explain how Sanders' campaign thought they could win the nomination without the black vote. It just baffles the mind. I remember Edwards and Obama attending various "black events" as early as 2006, clearly in preparation for 2007/2008. I'd imagine Sanders never thought he had a shot at winning, and probably didn't think he'd do this well...but it still doesn't make sense that a democrat could look at the primary map in early 2015 and say "the south? Nah, fuck that."

I think it's less trying to win the nomination without the black vote, so much as he figured that they'd support him if his campaign and message took off, like they shifted from Hillary to Obama in '08.

A lot of Sanders supporters feel that his message of economic justice is natural for black voters, and I'd expect Sanders himself felt the same way.  Just the way he's talked about how he'd accomplish stuff is predicated on a huge, grassroots surge of support for his program (compare with Hillary who's clearly looking at various constituencies which can be stitched together).  Eventually he had Killer Mike and Cornel West as surrogates, but it was definitely too little, too late.

Be interesting to see what lesson white liberals choose to take from this.

Phoenix Dark

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Yea. Although Cornell West is probably one of the worst black surrogates you can have (on the democrat side). Scust...
010

Mandark

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Yea. Although Cornell West is probably one of the worst black surrogates you can have (on the democrat side). Scust...


recursivelyenumerable

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sweet, I feel better about my fucked up front teeth now.
QED

benjipwns

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https://medium.com/@rebeccaunger/i-m-a-young-liberal-and-there-s-no-way-i-m-voting-for-bernie-sanders-e5086f25eb62
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I am a 22-year-old Democrat living in New York City. I work in a creative industry that pays a low salary. I am socially liberal: I believe in LBGT rights, a woman’s right to choose, women’s rights across the board, racial equality, gun control and confronting climate change in a major way. I am upset about income inequality. I believe rich people should be taxed more to help fund policy initiatives that benefit poorer people: healthcare and education and better infrastructure, for example. And yet the idea of voting for Bernie Sanders never once crossed my mind.
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This is about the simple fact that his is an idealistic, naïve agenda that could never be put into practice in America. In this country, to legislate even one tenth of such an ambitious plan would take degrees of cooperation, sacrifice, even manipulation and such an immense amount of ‘give-and-take’ tactics that an idea that once stood untarnished, glistening at the campaign podium, would come out looking like a child’s napkin after a meal of spaghetti Bolognese. Yes, there may be some white patches left around the edges, but no bleach will ever get out all the stains.

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Yes, Clinton has made ‘slip ups’ and she will inevitably be criticized for them, but experience is built by learning from one’s mistakes, and her acumen in this area is something American people should take into serious consideration.
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No one would bat an eyelid in Europe for a candidate with his checklist. I say this as someone who lived in Germany for four years and in London for almost five.
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So I hate to break it to you my fellow Millennials, but a vote for Bernie Sanders is a selfish act: an indulgence of a fantasy, an impractical, high-minded quixotic vision for an America that can never exist; it would be like striking a match against a damp surface.

Am_I_Anonymous

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YMMV


ToxicAdam

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I want to vote for Trump just as a middle finger to this entire charade we call presidential politics. But the catch is that you then support the 98% of his voter base that actually believes in the guy.

I wish everyone would be "in" on the joke.


Quote
Speaking of which:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/03/clinton-campaign-says-no-more-debates-until-bernie-starts-be-nicer

To me, this epitomizes my problem with Hillary. Instead of being sincere and forthright, she has to do this dance of bullshit that makes her look ridic. Why can't you just come out and say "I gain nothing from debating Sanders".



tiesto

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I love the "I'm not gonna vote for Bernie because he'll never get his ideas through congress" people... As if the republican-controlled congress is gonna play nice with Hillary :P
^_^

benjipwns

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I love the "I'm not gonna vote for Bernie because he'll never get his ideas through congress" people... As if the republican-controlled congress is gonna play nice with Hillary :P
You already got debunked by Rebeca:
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The enactment of legislation necessitates compromise (a fact enshrined in the constitution), or in the words of Senator Sanders, “As we all know, there are bills in Congress that have bad stuff, there are bills in Congress that have good stuff. Good stuff and bad stuff in the same bill.” Yes, Bernie, but as President the bad stuff will mean a watering down, or outright counteraction of many of your goals.

Take healthcare, for example. Bernie advocates Medicare for all — a national, single-payer health insurance system that would replace the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) made law in 2010. Hillary also has every intention of making healthcare cheaper. But rather than uproot a program that represents a huge milestone in American healthcare policymaking and was also incredibly difficult to implement because of Republican opposition, her proposal is to build on and improve what we have managed to achieve already.

This is not an “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” move. This is a rational plan to achieve a realistic goal compared with Bernie’s unrealistic plan that would require so much dilution to make it Republican friendly redundancy kicks in.

Mandark

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I love the "I'm not gonna vote for Bernie because he'll never get his ideas through congress" people... As if the republican-controlled congress is gonna play nice with Hillary :P

He couldn't get his key policies through a Democratic Congress either, though.

thisismyusername

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So I hate to break it to you my fellow Snake People, but a vote for Bernie Sanders is a selfish act

Fine with me.  :heh

If I have to vote between Clinton or Trump: I'm voting third party/Sanders write in. I trust neither of those motherfuckers with the country and "but Clinton supports most of Sanders policies" is bullshit. Yeah, because she'll cut tuition and not screw over my generation. She'll just tell Universities to "cut it out!" just like she told Wall Street. How did that work out? :doge

If she finally says something that is worth listening to and actually will follow through with it (which to be honest: I doubt she ever will, especially if the Congress is mixed) I'd consider it despite my dislike of her and her history. But there's no way that's ever happening. :doge

Mandark

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that's dumb

thisismyusername

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:yeshrug

Clinton hasn't appealed to me at all. Voting the "lesser evil" means voting against what I believe just for the sake of the hope that the country doesn't get screwed even harder than it already is.

(To be fair, I'm waffling between not voting for once since I turned 18 or voting third party. And I've voted in mid-terms. The country in the state it is simply has made me lose faith in the democratic process of being able to have the country "move forward" instead of being totally gridlocked with no means of actually getting things done.)

Phoenix Dark

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It amazes me that anyone thinks black people will be receptive to a man who has gone to such lengths to take ugly, personal attacks against Obama, including essentially calling him a distinguished black fellow.

Part of me wishes Sanders won the nom and presidency just so his supporters could turn on him as he failed to achieve anything, signed compromise budgets, etc. I wonder if West would make anti-Semitic attacks on him.
010

Mandark

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West's whole schtick on Obama feels like it's been an extended riff of the Jesse Jackson "cut his nuts off" comment, a member of the old guard feeling that Obama hasn't paid his dues and isn't really authentic.

As a honkey I generally avoid commenting on internal conflicts in other communities, but West really seemed to cross the line in how personal he got, and most of his political analysis seemed directly lifted from a #slatepitch about how Obama could've gotten a British style National Health System if only he really tried.

benjipwns

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If Obama had the Slave Blood in him he would have been a modern day A. Philip Randolph and not backed down to the capitalist cac's.

Tasty

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that's dumb

Yup. Supreme Court seats, nuclear launch codes, and decades of progress for minorities, LGBT people, immigrants and women are too important to throw down the drain because you got pouty your candidate didn't win.

If I have to vote between Clinton or Trump: I'm voting third party/Sanders write in. I trust neither of those motherfuckers with the country

The Guardian: "This may shock you: Hillary Clinton is fundamentally honest"

Also, equivocating Clinton and Trump as if they're both equally dishonest couldn't be further from reality.





Bernie, for comparison:



Bernie and Hillary are actually pretty damn close. In fact, while Hillary has slightly more "pants on fire," her absolutely true + mostly true statements are higher than Bernie's.

"but Clinton supports most of Sanders policies" is bullshit.

You can say it's "bullshit", but it's provably the truth. They voted the same 93% of the time when they were both in the Senate.

Yeah, because she'll cut tuition and not screw over my generation. She'll just tell Universities to "cut it out!" just like she told Wall Street. How did that work out? :doge

Hillary is for free (as in tuition, books, and fees) public colleges under New College Compact (both community colleges and four-year.) She also supports college debt refinancing using current rates, sharply lowering interest rates, and repayment programs that max out at 10% of the graduate's salary.

If she finally says something that is worth listening to and actually will follow through with it (which to be honest: I doubt she ever will, especially if the Congress is mixed)

This is a really defeatist way of thinking and it's strange hearing it from a Bernie supporter. If you think Hillary can't do shit with how Congress currently is, then I'm not sure how Bernie would do literally anything he's been talking about.

I should also reiterate Hillary has been doing a lot of work for downticket candidates so that Democrats regain seats in congress, which is the real fight. Bernie on the other hand hasn't been doing shit in comparison, but that's not a surprise since he's an "outsider" (and that's been spun as a good thing.)

I'd consider it despite my dislike of her and her history. But there's no way that's ever happening. :doge

Dealing in absolutes is not useful when politics are involved.

I've tried to lean off the snark for this post because my personal message throughout this primary is that Democratic voters have to come together this election, regardless of their preferred candidate. There is just way too much on the line as I said at the top of this post. And yes, I'd be arguing the same points if Hillary was down and Bernie was up.

I've said my peace, vote for how you want, but don't expect to be lauded it.

I'm a Puppy!

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I don't really care for Hillary. I think voting her in wont change the important things that need changing. But that being said, I'm not delusional enough to vote 3rd party when Sanders loses. There's way too much at stake.
que

HyperZoneWasAwesome

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my first presidential vote was for Nader. But if Gore had even half of a chance of getting the deeply red state I lived in, I would have gone for Gore in a heartbeat.

I don't really think ole' Ralphey cost Gore the election (Bush and co were playing dirty anyway, Al ran a shitty campaign and ran away from his accomplishments Romney-style), but I also think that pretty much all those Nader voters, myself included, would have much rather had Gore in the White House then Bush. And as hard as it can be to get excited about voting for the lesser evil, its actually really, really important that the lesser evil wins.

benjipwns

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The Guardian: "This may shock you: Hillary Clinton is fundamentally honest"

Also, equivocating Clinton and Trump as if they're both equally dishonest couldn't be further from reality.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

Bernie, for comparison:

(Image removed from quote.)

Bernie and Hillary are actually pretty damn close. In fact, while Hillary has slightly more "pants on fire," her absolutely true + mostly true statements are higher than Bernie's.
:neogaf

Mandark

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I'd complain about the fisking but I don't even object to benji's shitposting anymore so might as well let the thread burn.

 :yeshrug
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 01:25:53 PM by Mandark »

benjipwns

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Why are you guys talking about the election outcome as if you or username has some say in it?

But throw your vote away on Hillary if you want, President Trump will be gentle to those who repent.

benjipwns

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I don't even object to benji's shitposting
:ufup

Mandark

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and for that you're welcome!

hey, do you ever worry about what would happen to poor folks in your particular utopia?

brob

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and for that you're welcome!

hey, do you ever worry about what would happen to poor folks in your particular utopia?

trick question: if there are any poor people still alive it's not utopia yet is it


tiesto

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my first presidential vote was for Nader. But if Gore had even half of a chance of getting the deeply red state I lived in, I would have gone for Gore in a heartbeat.

I don't really think ole' Ralphey cost Gore the election (Bush and co were playing dirty anyway, Al ran a shitty campaign and ran away from his accomplishments Romney-style), but I also think that pretty much all those Nader voters, myself included, would have much rather had Gore in the White House then Bush. And as hard as it can be to get excited about voting for the lesser evil, its actually really, really important that the lesser evil wins.

Heh, 2000 was my first election as well, though I did an absentee ballot for Gore. I'll admit to being a bit tempted by the Nader (what with being a naive college student) but it really did come down to the 'lesser of 2 evils', and Gore wasn't all that bad (especially compared to dubya).

When it comes to voting for the lesser evil... part of me is still worried that those who aren't excited/motivated about Hillary won't turn out, and the blue-collar independents in the rust belt swing states will choose Trump and his populist message over the corporatist/insider Hillary. The South will go Trump, the west coast and acela corridor will go Hillary... but Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin may possibly turn Trump. Florida is up in the air, too. The big question is the midwest, since none of them were too high on Trump (hell I've seen arguments that Utah may possibly choose Hillary over Trump!).
^_^

Tasty

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and for that you're welcome!

hey, do you ever worry about what would happen to poor folks in your particular utopia?

trick question: if there are any poor people still alive it's not utopia yet is it


Mandark

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What I really like about that answer ("poor people alive") is the two very different ways in which it can be read.

Madrun Badrun

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to a man who has gone to such lengths to take ugly, personal attacks against Obama, including essentially calling him a distinguished black fellow.


wait what?

Mandark

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He means Cornel West.  I've only read some stuff here and there, but I do remember West speculating that Obama's upbringing made him unduly eager to please white people, and that was driving his decisions as president.  Bunch of stuff like that.

Mandark

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Elevator pitch: West by North West, a panel show where Cornel West, Ollie North, and Allen West discuss issues of the day.

benjipwns

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and for that you're welcome!
I wasn't thanking you, I was blaming you. All of this could have been avoided.

Quote
hey, do you ever worry about what would happen to poor folks in your particular utopia?